Help! I can't figure out what to play in the next Campaign (28pt buy, PF)

[reivax]

Hey Playgrounders,

I'm having huge difficulties deciding what to play in the next Pathfinder campaign. It'll be set in Nirmathas I believe, and the DM has hinted that it'll start out above surface and then go underground for the later levels mostly.

We're playing with a 28pt buy. My first thought was a dwarven barbarian, but as I read up on the barbarian class, it just seemed meh.

Then I had a crazy idea of going dual-wield fighter, but Dex 19 might be a bit prohibitive?

So, I'm now at some kind of ranger, but I cannot help but feel like the weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization gives so much to a dual-wield figher.

I do get the animal companion, som nice spells (lead blades, bulls strength seem good) fighter BAB, and if I pick deep walker, some pretty damn big bonuses underground. Also lots of skills compared to the other classes.

However, as I said, missing +4 damage from weapon spec seems harsh, and the animal companion seems kind of bad up until level 11 when, and maybe not that hot even then.

What I'm looking for is some kind of brawly type with a good damage output, and preferably competent with a couple of combat maneuvers. What is best for this kind of thing, the Ranger or the Fighter?

[Loren]

Is it purely a PF game or is some 3.5 content allowed in as well? [because what you probably want is a warblade from ToB, but also access to a wider range of feats (I'm particularly fond of the tactical genre) really helps the fighter]

How set are you on optimization?

One trade off you should also be considering are defences. A 19 dex will give you +4 on you AC, but a fighter has access to some heavy armour that negates that advantage. It also gives Reflexes, which the fighter class isn't hot at.

when you consider how rapidly a caster adds damage dice to their spells (or a moster gains hp) a static +4 to damage isn't that fantastic (although applying it to more strikes is nice).
edit: a level of rogue will get you 1d6 (average 3.5 damage) sneak damage, which would apply any time you get flanking or the enemy is denied their dex to AC. I've seen this used to great effect on two weapon builds. In short, there are other ways of going about bumping up ones damage out put if you aren't thinking within the narrow confins of particular preset packages.

[reivax]

It's pure PF, I think we're going with everything in the PFSRD.

I'm probably going to optimize as much as possible without 'creating a monster' (I've been thinking about some kind of Paladin/Synthesist build, but I'm not sure how fun it'd be).

Also, the capstones are so vary good that I'm not sure it's worth dipping into other classes unless you get something really special for it?

[Loren]

what level will you be starting at? If you're starting at 1-5 I wouldn't worry about capstones as you probably will never reach them at least not for a year or two.

[reivax]

what level will you be starting at? If you're starting at 1-5 I wouldn't worry about capstones as you probably will never reach them at least not for a year or two.

Will most probably be starting at 1.

Well, as my gaming groups culture goes, most of our campaigns are multi-year affairs, this'll be my 2nd PF and D&D campaign ever, we usually do other systems (native swedish RPGs, heavily modified). Am currently in a campaign that has been running since the 1990s (it's the third installment), so I'm in it for the long haul really. :)

But I'm not adverse to multiclassing, although just 1D6 of sneak attack damage seems unimpressive (especially since the ranger animal companion seems so bad unless you level it up a lot).

[Bloodgruve]

I'm planning on an Alchemist on an upcoming PF run. They sound very fun especially if you listen to the Alchemist podcast here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236694). Beastmorph and Vivisectionist look interesting in the melee side and some others look fun also. Mad scientist bomb throwing guy, how could you go wrong?

GL
Blood~

[Corlindale]

Rangers are very nice, and you can get very nice stats with 28 point buy.

Don't worry about weapon spec - it seems like a cool bonus, but it's really not a big deal. As a ranger you can afford higher strength anyway, and of course favoured enemy is a nice source of damage too (especially once you get the fantastic Instant Enemy spell).

Paladins are also wickedly powerful. You can even make pretty powerful two-weapon fighting paladins, though that's somewhat expensive feat-wise. Still, with that PB you can afford the stats for it, at least.

I'm not sure it would combine all that well with Synthesist, though - unless maybe you just took 2 paladin levels for Divine Grace and optimized your Cha to high-heaven - all the while not needing to worry about physical stats.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by reivax
Well, as my gaming groups culture goes, most of our campaigns are multi-year affairs

Lucky you, I'm envious. One other point about cap stones, how long do you expect to be using it? It seems to be that planning for the long haul is good, but it's better to plan for the game that is actually about to be played (but maybe I'm jaded from making too many amazing characters that never saw more than 4-8 hours of play).


Originally Posted by reivax
although just 1D6 of sneak attack damage seems unimpressive (especially since the ranger animal companion seems so bad unless you level it up a lot).
Agreed, I just wanted to put that up as a conparison to the +4 from the weapon specialization since they are roughly equal.
I've not heard much praise of the ranger's animal companion due to their relatively slow leveling when compared to the druid, but most of what I've heard relates to 3.5. Maybe the beastmaster archetype in PF has made a significant improvement it.

[ericgrau]

28 pt buy in PF is really high so you can afford to get both dex and str. I wouldn't feel obligated to focus on dex. TWF is the most important; you can wait until later for ITWF which means you can get dex boosting magic items to meet the requirements. So all you need is dex 15. That kind of dex also goes well with armor training with or without TWF.

In combat a ranger is basically a fighter with less feats and lighter armor. Unless you want the skills you're best off going straight fighter, or better yet a barbarian dip for both rage and weapon spec bonus damage is best. For pure melee combat sneak attack is likewise a trap because you hit less often and you're very fragile. Likewise rogues are skillmonkeys first.

So I'd do barbarian 1 / fighter X or similar. Focus str, get a dex of 15.

Without shocktrooper cheese in PF I'd say the gap between THF and TWF is exaggerated. But some tricks to close the gap include spell storing weapons, putting your extra attacks towards combat maneuvers, and bonus effects like damage or poison to get double the bonus. You might dip ranger 1 purely for favored enemy if you expect a certain enemy, for example. Anything you can stack on without losing BAB. That means another good option could be a TWF paladin X for quadruple smite full attacks.

[Loren]

nit pick, magic bonuses to stats don't help qualify for feats. When picking feats it's best to think of your character being naked in an anti-magic feild. If they'd still quailify for the feat then they can get it.

[ericgrau]

I was pretty sure the opposite was true. I don' think there's a concrete rule one way or another in 3.5 nor PF. But in PF any bonus lasting 24 hours or longer is considered "Permanent" and changes your actual ability score. Even skill points are awarded retroactively from magical int according to some comment from a PF designer (and more officially they removed the specific 3.5 rule against it), which is kinda weird but in there. The reason given was to remove all exceptions; i.e., if you have the ability you have the ability.

[reivax]

One other point about cap stones, how long do you expect to be using it? It seems to be that planning for the long haul is good, but it's better to plan for the game that is actually about to be played (but maybe I'm jaded from making too many amazing characters that never saw more than 4-8 hours of play).


I don't know how long the capstone will be used, but hopefully a few sessions. Am I right in thinking that the Ranger has some nifty features, but will never get to the damage potential of a fighter?

Since I'm not too impressed by the Rangers animal companion overall, I'm considering the Beastmaster path, as that will give it identical progression to the druid companion at level 12. However, I miss a combat style feat, and two weapon wielding is the major thing I have in mind. Do you only get to ignore requirements when you can actually buy the combat style feats as a ranger, or is it with any feat? i.e. Ranger can buy Combat style at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and can ignore any prerequisites for his Combat style feats, but as the beastmaster doesn't get the 6th level feat (which is the level that improved two weapon fighting is added to the combat style feat list), is he unable to purchase this before level 10 and then has to delay greater TWF to 14?

EDIT:
If anyone else has a fun 28pt build and basic plan for a class (which will have to work underground), feel free to chime in :)