WBL vs Player Death?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, if you start a game with 6th level characters, neatly sidestepping that grubby era of almost dying all the time, you start with huge piles of money because the game assumes you've already had an adventuring career.

Makes sense.

But then if a character dies, their 13k worth of items doesn't just vanish. And when their new character arrives, they bring 13k with them. If two members of a four man party die, then the group as a whole will be dragging around 78k instead of the 52k they would normally get.

I don't want to say "Sorry, Kelly the Wizard doesn't get starting items. She can just make do with the enchanted loincloth, greataxe, and sack of bricks left over from Kelly the Barbarian."

I also don't want to say "Okay, Kelly the Barbarian just died. Everybody go through and figure out which of her items were WBL and which were acquired over the course of your adventures, and then the ones that were WBL have just burst into flame/rust."

(I'm currently running a 6th level party through a 7th level dungeon, and they're not experienced gamers or well optimized, so fatalities are a given. I'm not really concerned about that- Rolling new characters is half the fun and it'll encourage them to familiarize themselves with a variety of classes and help them recognize that death isn't really the end of the world.)

I feel like it'd be wrong for the players to realize they make bank off of dangerous encounters not because the dragon has good loot but because when it eats 3/4ths of the party their wealth just auto-doubles.


Currently the only solution I have is to let the wealth accumulate but then rob them on a regular basis or something. There must be a more elegant way though, right?

[ericgrau]

The DMG suggests that their wealth should go to their next of kin rather than to the party. I think it also gives other suggestions and all of them are basically to avoid giving the treasure to the party.

[Telonius]

Most parties I've known have a "resurrection fund" for just such an occasion. (The traditional "One fourteenth of all profits, traveling expenses guaranteed, funeral expenses if necessary" clause). But since you're low-level, that might not be practical. In that case, just short them on treasure for a while until it evens out.

Another option is also a potential plot hook - the kingdom institutes a new Licensed Adventurer policy. Some portion of their wealth would go towards the new "loot tax." That really only works once, though.

[aldeayeah]

I'd be flexible. Leave it up to the player to decide.

If he wants nothing of the old character's gear, the new character starts with full WBL.

If he wants to keep some stuff, that stuff counts towards the new character's WBL limit.

If he wants to keep everything, the new character gets no additional equipment.

Also it's up to the player to justify this in-game.

...Maybe the old character's life insurance includes Inevitables that retrieve his gear when he's dead :smallbiggrin:

[Pilo]

Wealth by level is more a guide line ot a stone-writen rule.
If one or more of them die, you can still reduce the next loots.
Remember that even with a resurection, a PC is supposed to loose a level, you can also give him the WBL of a level fewer than he was.

Exemple:
5 lvl 7 pcs :total money = 133000 gp (average 19000).
Two of them die: 3 lvl 7 pcs with 133000gp (average 44000).
Two new level 7 adventurers merge : 133000+2*19000 = 171000gp (average 34200).
They are around 2000 gp from level 9 characters standard wealth by level.
If you only give them 10000gp from here to 9 level. It is time for generous quest with poor reward.

End.

Their money is far above average but some people are richer than others (no level 7 commoners have 19000gp).

It will not necessarilly break the game.

You can also ask them what the former members of their compagny may have want them to do with their legacy. If one of them was a cleric, maybe they will give a part of his wealth to his cult. If one was a warrior who want to be famous, they may want to offer him a statue and hire a bard to sing stories about him. (Even if the price of these things would never be 19000gp, it is nice things to do, don't ask them to pay too much for the service).

[big teej]

So, if you start a game with 6th level characters, neatly sidestepping that grubby era of almost dying all the time, you start with huge piles of money because the game assumes you've already had an adventuring career.

Makes sense.

But then if a character dies, their 13k worth of items doesn't just vanish. And when their new character arrives, they bring 13k with them. If two members of a four man party die, then the group as a whole will be dragging around 78k instead of the 52k they would normally get.

I don't want to say "Sorry, Kelly the Wizard doesn't get starting items. She can just make do with the enchanted loincloth, greataxe, and sack of bricks left over from Kelly the Barbarian."

I also don't want to say "Okay, Kelly the Barbarian just died. Everybody go through and figure out which of her items were WBL and which were acquired over the course of your adventures, and then the ones that were WBL have just burst into flame/rust."

(I'm currently running a 6th level party through a 7th level dungeon, and they're not experienced gamers or well optimized, so fatalities are a given. I'm not really concerned about that- Rolling new characters is half the fun and it'll encourage them to familiarize themselves with a variety of classes and help them recognize that death isn't really the end of the world.)

I feel like it'd be wrong for the players to realize they make bank off of dangerous encounters not because the dragon has good loot but because when it eats 3/4ths of the party their wealth just auto-doubles.


Currently the only solution I have is to let the wealth accumulate but then rob them on a regular basis or something. There must be a more elegant way though, right?

recently, I had a rather lethal plotarc that lead to this particular problem. (for a month or two, we averaged a fatality every other session)

so the first question you must ask yourself is "are they starting to get killed on purpose to inflate their wealth?"

if they are, that's a whole seperate issue that needs to be handled out of game.


assuming you're just having a lethal plotline or something.

what I did was simply stop handing out treasure until they fall back within an acceptable range of wealth.

if they're 13k over, well that's 13k of items/treasure they're not getting.

[PersonMan]

Then again, you also have to consider this: how much of that old gear will actually be useful? If you have a +1 longsword, you don't really need a +1 axe, too, most of the time. If Bob and Jack die, you have two more Cloaks of Resistance +2.

Often, you'll just end up with a bunch of duplicate items that are worth a lot but essentially useless. In this case, just don't let them sell/trade them until later.

EDIT: For example, of 13k a generic frontliner might have: 1 +1 weapon (2k) 1 +2 armor (4k) and 1 +2 cloak of resistance (4k). This already adds up to 10k of wealth that is essentially useless unless somebody doesn't have one of these - which by this level often means they don't need it. What's the non-gish wizard to do with a +1 longsword he isn't even proficient with?

[Rebel7284]

Having somewhat more or less money than the guidelines is not a huge issue. With that said, there are many ways to deal with excess wealth.

1. Some methods of death naturally are likely to destroy equipment. Acid/Lava/death by "Swallow Whole"/etc.
2. Thievery.
3. Some desperate enemy CAN UMD a scroll of Disjunction if needed. (or just memorize and cast it if you're higher level)
4. Adjusting rewards over time.

[shadow_archmagi]

Having somewhat more or less money than the guidelines is not a huge issue. With that said, there are many ways to deal with excess wealth.

1. Some methods of death naturally are likely to destroy equipment. Acid/Lava/death by "Swallow Whole"/etc.


"Welcome to the kingdom of the clifftop oozes!"

[pffh]

You can always just cut the added wealth off the top of their loot over the next level or so.

[mattie_p]

OK, just to clarify this. Everyone is fine with the concept that adventurers kill stuff and get their loot. This equals Wealth (in some form or fashion, gold, items, etc). As adventurers increase in level (meaning they survive and kill more stuff), their net wealth increases. This is where wealth by level comes in. So far so good.

But when the adventurers kill stuff, and one of their own friends die, they can't keep the stuff? I think this is also part of wealth by level, unless you can afford to raise/reincarnate them (as drawn up in the group by-laws, etc). In every case, the survivors keep the stuff. You think the dragon is going to give the stuff back if he TPK's everyone? You think he'll be upset that his WBL is above his CR?

[limejuicepowder]

You could also work out a plot device to keep the gear from the living players. This is a pretty specific example, but one of the players in my group just died (heroically, saving the King's son from giants). The setting is nordic/viking, so burial customs demand that the character take his gear with him to the afterlife. As much as the cleric wanted the Breastplate +1 of Displacement, it was getting burned along with the fallen hero xD.

[PersonMan]

But when the adventurers kill stuff, and one of their own friends die, they can't keep the stuff? I think this is also part of wealth by level, unless you can afford to raise/reincarnate them (as drawn up in the group by-laws, etc).

I believe the point is that, if party members die and are replaced by new full-WBL characters, the party quickly gains a huge amount of money.

Let's say that a group of five level 6s (at full WBL) are going through a dungeon. One dies. The other divvy up the loot - each of them gets 3.25k worth. If they sell it for the standard 50% price, they gain 1.625k each. If this happens, say, 3 times over the course of the dungeon, each survivor has gained ~4.875k extra gold. This is a problem, unless you've planned it into the treasure you give, as the survivors are then above standard WBL.

I'm not saying this is specifically problematic, just trying to explain why this can be seen as a problem.

[mattie_p]

Let's say that a group of five level 6s (at full WBL) are going through a dungeon. One dies. The other divvy up the loot - each of them gets 3.25k worth. If they sell it for the standard 50% price, they gain 1.625k each. If this happens, say, 3 times over the course of the dungeon, each survivor has gained ~4.875k extra gold. This is a problem, unless you've planned it into the treasure you give, as the survivors are then above standard WBL.

Raise dead, as cast by an NPC, costs ~6K, or 1/3 of a 6th level PC WBL. It sucks, but its doable. And with the level loss, there is a marginal impact on WBL of the raised character. Reincarnate costs far less, lets say ~1.5K.

Just generating a new character to get above WBL is metagaming, and the DM should intervene and lower other treasure if the players are in the habit of doing that. But if it is not a habit... Look, adventuring is a hazardous career field. To the survivors go the spoils. I'll admit that in the past a particularly coveted magic item landed in my equipment list from a deceased character. But all of that should be spelled out in a party charter or compact or something. You can't even enter into a lotto ticket pool these days without doing a contract (or shouldn't, anyway), much less become a mercenary company traveling the world and slaughtering your evil foes.

Or, maybe the DM should find out why they are killing so many characters per session and do something about that.

[shadow_archmagi]

R
Just generating a new character to get above WBL is metagaming, and the DM should intervene and lower other treasure if the players are in the habit of doing that. But if it is not a habit... Look, adventuring is a hazardous career field. To the survivors go the spoils.

I'm not sure that it is metagaming, since... I mean.

Hmm. I guess it... sort of is... technically? I mean, metagaming usually implies a breakdown of the barrier between character and player knowledge, but the decision whether to wait for resurrection or just reroll is one that's always made without character knowledge. It's an inherently out of character act regardless. That's semantics though. Doing it for WBL abuse would definitely be poor sportsmanship.

However, making a Rogue and then a Wizard and then a Barbarian and then a Swordsage because you just happen to be in a deadly campaign and enjoy trying out new things is certainly a legitimate outlook on life.


But when the adventurers kill stuff, and one of their own friends die, they can't keep the stuff? I think this is also part of wealth by level


Except that if Steve, Arnold, Kara, and Susan are level 6 characters in a party, an average encounter should yield 2000 gp. An encounter in which one of them dies, however, will yield 13000 gp. Thus, a death means more than quadruple treasure from that encounter! If, over the course of four sessions, they each die once, (with the surviving three safeguarding the dead member's treasure until the replacement arrives) then they'll have double WBL!



Or, maybe the DM should find out why they are killing so many characters per session and do something about that.


I'm the DM and I'm killing so many characters per session because I enjoy running a harsh game from time to time.

[Averis Vol]

the way my group see's it its disrespecting the honor of your friend to take his gear and leave him naked in the dungeon, we make it a point to give each character a burial with all his gear, or a funeral pyre, up to them. so i'v only had one issue with this and it was when a 15th lvl character got tired of his wizard/fighter TWFing with bastard swords without oversized who could not hit ANYTHING had his old character killed of by doing something incredibly stupid specifically to get himself killed (the 24 int wizard decided to attack the daimyo and userp his power >.>) by his new character who "rolled three twentys before the game even started in the other room"the daimyo's samurai bodyguard and then claimed his full gear for his own , so he wound up with 370k for character gen while the rest of the party had maybe 100k worth of stuff each. i know your groups lower level but the point is a dying characters WBL should be well monitored, try bringing it up to your party that it IS disrespectful to loot a friend, enemies are one story as they generally provoke the fight but your friends, well, a friend.