pounce

[hivedragon]

I heard of a varient barbarian that gets pounce; what book/page is this from?

[Suddo]

Complete Champions page 46. Spirit Lion Barbarian.

[Darth Stabber]

Since that book's publication most new barbarians are 25% slower, and yet 20% cooler.

[Flickerdart]

Note that while most Totems (Unearthed Arcana) cannot be combined with Spirit Totems (Complete Champion), the UA's Wolf totem can be combined with Spirit Totems, so you can worship both the Wolf and Spirit Lion for free Improved Trip and Pounce at the same time.

[Person_Man]

For future reference, here is the comprehensive list of ways to get pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Although Lion Totem Barbarian is a commonly cited way to get pounce, it is also somewhat inefficient to spend a class level just to get it. Most higher Tier builds (ie, those with more resources) get pounce or free movement normally in the course of their normal progression, or for the low investment of 1 Feat or a cheap magic item. This includes the Druid, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Ranger, anyone with Turn/Rebuke Undead, anyone with access to the Use Magic Device Skill, and many others.

[Ravens_cry]

Still, if you want to Pounce right away (not that Pounce does much good for a THF at first level . . .) Lion Totem Barbarian certainly has the most pounce per ounce.

[Amphetryon]

For future reference, here is the comprehensive list of ways to get pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Although Lion Totem Barbarian is a commonly cited way to get pounce, it is also somewhat inefficient to spend a class level just to get it. Most higher Tier builds (ie, those with more resources) get pounce or free movement normally in the course of their normal progression, or for the low investment of 1 Feat or a cheap magic item. This includes the Druid, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Ranger, anyone with Turn/Rebuke Undead, anyone with access to the Use Magic Device Skill, and many others.

It's mostly a matter of what levels you expect your game to be played within. Lion Totem Barbarian might be less than ideal in a game in the teens-to-epic range, but it beats most (not necessarily all) other options in a game from levels 1 - 6, for instance.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey! Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 1's are great melee characters! I don't know what you all are talking about, this not being good at level 1...

[Amphetryon]

Hey! Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 1's are great melee characters! I don't know what you all are talking about, this not being good at level 1...

Who said that it wasn't?

[Ravens_cry]

I did, and I guess I was wrong.

[Gavinfoxx]

You just weren't thinking of combining Whirling Frenzy and Pounce. It's okay. We all learn...

[Darth Stabber]

For future reference, here is the comprehensive list of ways to get pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Although Lion Totem Barbarian is a commonly cited way to get pounce, it is also somewhat inefficient to spend a class level just to get it. Most higher Tier builds (ie, those with more resources) get pounce or free movement normally in the course of their normal progression, or for the low investment of 1 Feat or a cheap magic item. This includes the Druid, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Ranger, anyone with Turn/Rebuke Undead, anyone with access to the Use Magic Device Skill, and many others.

Yes, spending a level is an expensive way to get pounce (or any other means of full attacking and moving). However barbarian is a common class in many builds that require pounce, and if not already included it can easily replace something else in the build with very little loss. And it is a very easy way, it is always up, and you don't have to find a magic item.

[Morithias]

It's mostly a matter of what levels you expect your game to be played within. Lion Totem Barbarian might be less than ideal in a game in the teens-to-epic range, but it beats most (not necessarily all) other options in a game from levels 1 - 6, for instance.

I don't mean to be mean, but could someone please explain what the point of having pounce in a level 1-6 game is when you only have one attack anyways? I mean two weapon fighting I suppose, but there's a feat for that.

Or am I missing something obvious?

[Darth Stabber]

I don't mean to be mean, but could someone please explain what the point of having pounce in a level 1-6 game is when you only have one attack anyways? I mean two weapon fighting I suppose, but there's a feat for that.

Or am I missing something obvious?

TWF, Haste, whirling frenzy, speed weapons, and that's just the first few off the top of my head. Plus full bab gets it's first iterative at 6.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't mean to be mean, but could someone please explain what the point of having pounce in a level 1-6 game is when you only have one attack anyways? I mean two weapon fighting I suppose, but there's a feat for that.

Or am I missing something obvious?

18 STR level 1 Fighter with Two-Weapon Fighting wielding two short swords = two attacks at +3, 1d6+4, x2 crit (19-20).
18 STR level 1 Barbarian charging with Two-Weapon Fighting wielding two short swords in Whirling Frenzy = three attacks at +5, 1d6+6, x2 crit (19-20).
18 STR level 1 Barbarian charging with a greatsword in two hands in Whirling Frenzy = two attacks at +7, 2d6+9, x2 crit (19-20).

Remember that Whirling Frenzy is also rage. That +4 STR means a +2 to hit, and the charge bonus that you get is also worth a +2. It's also worth a second attack (or third with Two-Weapon Fighting), each one made with a higher to-hit bonus than your standard two-weapon fighter. The capacity to deal multiple attacks with a two-handed weapon at level 1, PLUS charge bonuses, is devastating - you're now one-shotting a wolf, plus its friend, on a successful charge (or just get two attacks on one if the first misses). Since the charge bonus negates the Whirling Frenzy penalty, you're basically just getting another attack for free.

[Darrin]

TWF, Haste, whirling frenzy, speed weapons, and that's just the first few off the top of my head. Plus full bab gets it's first iterative at 6.

Also: Natural attacks. With the RotD WE, Kobolds get bite/claw/claw. A Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian Earth Kobold with Dragon Tail can get seven attacks at level 1:

UAS/UAS/WF/bite/claw/claw/tail.

Most of those will whiff (-4 penalty for UAS/UAS/WF, -7 penalty for bite/claw/claw/tail), but that's also seven chances to roll a 20.

[Wings of Peace]

For future reference, here is the comprehensive list of ways to get pounce and free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).


Something I'm mentioning here since mentioning it in the guide would be Thread Necromancy, Psionic Lion's Charge has a duration of Instantaneous. :smallsmile:

[Person_Man]

Yes, spending a level is an expensive way to get pounce (or any other means of full attacking and moving). However barbarian is a common class in many builds that require pounce, and if not already included it can easily replace something else in the build with very little loss. And it is a very easy way, it is always up, and you don't have to find a magic item.

If I'm going TWF starting at level 1, I would actually go with Warblade. You get Sudden Leap (Swift Action Jump), Wolf Fang Strike (make 2 attacks against 1 enemy as a Standard Action), Steel Wind (make 2 attacks against different enemies as a Standard Action), plus the Blood in the Water stance (+1 stacking bonus to hit and damage whenever you crit). Plus you can refresh your maneuvers just by making a normal full attack routine, presumably just after using Sudden Leap to move.

You might have less damage then a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian in a Rage, but the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian can only Rage once per day, and you have far less flexibility, especially if your campaign goes above level 1.

[Darrin]

Blood in the Water stance (+1 stacking bonus to hit and damage whenever you crit).


Unless you're crit-fishing with kukris, which doesn't really do all that much until you get keen/Improved Critical online, Punishing Stance (+3.5 damage to all attacks for -2 AC) is going to be better bang for your buck.



Plus you can refresh your maneuvers just by making a normal full attack routine, presumably just after using Sudden Leap to move.


Nitpick: doesn't work like that. ToB p. 22:

"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn."

If you spend a swift action to recover, then you can't use a swift for Sudden Leap. Although there are a couple ways to get an extra swift action a round (RKV, Synad), the second bolded text prevents you from using Sudden Leap and recovering maneuvers in the same round.

Presumably, many groups using ToB may fudge around with the recovery methods to suit their particular campaigns/playing styles.



You might have less damage then a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian in a Rage, but the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian can only Rage once per day, and you have far less flexibility, especially if your campaign goes above level 1.

I assume you mean "far more flexibility".

[Kaeso]

Hey! Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 1's are great melee characters! I don't know what you all are talking about, this not being good at level 1...

....How do you intend on justifying that roleplay wise?

[Darth Stabber]

....How do you intend on justifying that roleplay wise?

How ever I want. Mostly I plan on blaiming it all on my moustache, which was so awesome it stuck around after my dragonborn transformation.

[Amphetryon]

....How do you intend on justifying that roleplay wise?

Aside from the various (mutable) names of the abilities' origins, where's the difficulty in justifying it?

[Talya]

Melee builds usually lose little by dipping a level of barbarian. It's a damn good melee class to start with.

It's an expensive way for a spellcasting melee-type to get pounce, though.

[Flickerdart]

....How do you intend on justifying that roleplay wise?
Water Orc, because you were born with it. Dragonborn because you're so righteous that Bahamut gave you a medal for it. Spirit Lion because you admire the spiritual qualities associated with it (courage) and regular Wolf because you admire the physical qualities (teamwork). The result is an Orc who becomes a champion for good among his people, encouraging them to aspire to the same heights of martial prowess and inner understanding that he has achieved.

Why should a character have to be single faceted?

[Darth Stabber]

Water Orc, because you were born with it. Dragonborn because you're so righteous that Bahamut gave you a medal for it. Spirit Lion because you admire the spiritual qualities associated with it (courage) and regular Wolf because you admire the physical qualities (teamwork). The result is an Orc who becomes a champion for good among his people, encouraging them to aspire to the same heights of martial prowess and inner understanding that he has achieved.

Why should a character have to be single faceted?

Excellent character concept, and an excellent rebuke of the stormwind fallacy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

....How do you intend on justifying that roleplay wise?

Totems are just a set of non-Supernatural abilities, I can justify those however I want. Water orc, I could just be human, or I could be an actual water orc, not that hard. Dragonborn, I'm a half-dragon with mechanics that don't suck. Or, you could just follow the default fluff, and be a water orc that follows Bahamut and fights with animal styles.