"Power is Power" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Doc Kraken

2012-04-02, 07:33 PM

Power is power, in whatever form you have that can be used in a given situation. The kind of power that Xykon has doesn't exist in Game of Thrones, so things like control over guards has to suffice.

True...but a major part of the series is working out exactly where that power lies. There's a bit Varys does in the books, I can't remember if they showed in a trailer for the second season or he's already done it on the show, where he talks about three important people each telling a sellsword to kill the other two. They might be the ones with political, religious, or financial power - but he's the one with the sword, and ultimately, he's the one who picks who wins and who dies (Boom! Arc words!)

Her power's a bit more like the Soul Splice than I think she'd be comfortable admitting. It works, but there's no guarantee that it'll stick around. They're both right, power is power, but some forms are way more reliable. Not that I'd bring it up to her. :smalleek:

Roland Itiative

2012-04-02, 07:41 PM

This is certainly not what the show was going for :smallwink:
Actually, Xykon's speech kind of is what the show is going for, on the long run. Not what Cersei meant, though.

But Varys's upcoming little riddle, as shown in one of the trailers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE), kind of fits Xykon's views on how "power" takes different forms depending on the situation, and is not just measured by spell levels (or in GoT's case, military strength).

Likewise, in that specific exchange, "power" took the form of "control over the only armed men present, through either loyalty or money". In a different situation, Littlefinger's "knowledge is power" might prove to be true.

Bastian

2012-04-02, 07:44 PM

True...but a major part of the series is working out exactly where that power lies. There's a bit Varys does in the books, I can't remember if they showed in a trailer for the second season or he's already done it on the show, where he talks about three important people each telling a sellsword to kill the other two. They might be the ones with political, religious, or financial power - but he's the one with the sword, and ultimately, he's the one who picks who wins and who dies (Boom! Arc words!)
:

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
Varys

Sith_Happens

2012-04-02, 11:16 PM

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
Varys

:xykon: Now that part IS a bit of difference. Meteor Swarm.

thereaper

2012-04-02, 11:56 PM

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
Varys

Very Planescape.

Roland Itiative

2012-04-03, 06:22 AM

:xykon: Now that part IS a bit of difference. Meteor Swarm.

Unless the target has some badass fire protection up, in which case Meteor Swarm doesn't translate so well into power anymore. Even Xykon himself admits spells do not equal power (in all situations, at least).

Euodiachloris

2012-04-03, 06:53 AM

Unless the target has some badass fire protection up, in which case Meteor Swarm doesn't translate so well into power anymore. Even Xykon himself admits spells do not equal power (in all situations, at least).

That's true: in a pinch a Wizz... blunt object will do. :smallwink:

Xykon is not above improvising with whatever comes to hand when his back is against the wall, in short.

Lvl45DM!

2012-04-03, 06:54 AM

Yeah but Xykon's power, though situational, is not caused by other's belief in it. In fact its almost the opposite, he's more dangerous the less powerful people think he is

Valyrian

2012-04-03, 07:00 AM

Actually, Xykon's speech kind of is what the show is going for, on the long run. Not what Cersei meant, though.
I meant prompting their viewers to laugh.

But Varys's upcoming little riddle, as shown in one of the trailers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE), kind of fits Xykon's views on how "power" takes different forms depending on the situation, and is not just measured by spell levels (or in GoT's case, military strength).

Likewise, in that specific exchange, "power" took the form of "control over the only armed men present, through either loyalty or money". In a different situation, Littlefinger's "knowledge is power" might prove to be true.
The point the situation in the riddle is more that either loyalty, religiousness or money are of no use if you are at swordpoint, even when the man holding the sword doesn't realize this. But as Varys elaborates, the moral of the riddle is indeed that this depends on the situation, and that power doesn't has to lie where people commonly think it lies.

And by the way, Book!Littlefinger would've never been so stupid to tell Cersei right to her face what he knows. Yes Petyr, knowledge is power, but only until you're dead.

Anarion

2012-04-03, 11:46 AM

Yep, I had to contain a laugh. This is certainly not what the show was going for :smallwink:

It's exactly what the show is going for. However, the weakness of Cersei's power shows how fragile this kind of thinking can be. Xykon happens to be set up in a world where his power is difficult to take away, which is to his credit, but it also means that sometimes he doesn't have access to other types of power that he might need (like reliable allies with different abilities from him).

Very Planescape.

Yeah but Xykon's power, though situational, is not caused by other's belief in it. In fact its almost the opposite, he's more dangerous the less powerful people think he is

That's only because he hasn't dealt with any immortal beings that have maxed out wisdom and charisma. :smallbiggrin:

More seriously though, Xykon's power is very concentrated in the magic system and he further concentrated it by choice in a way that most effectively deals with opposing magic users. Against the right threat, it's just as ephemeral as Cersei's.

Math_Mage

2012-04-03, 01:47 PM

When Xykon says "Power is power," it's deep, because that's the kind of universe he lives in.

When Cersei says "Power is power," it's simple-minded and shallow, because that's emphatically NOT her universe. And she repeatedly demonstrates throughout the series that she doesn't understand the game, for all she plays at it. She tries to brute-force things, she makes herself overly visible, she exposes obvious weaknesses, she expends her control on petty things, and she gets used by other characters, when they don't simply ignore her.

Hallavast

2012-04-03, 03:40 PM

In fact its almost the opposite, he's more dangerous the less powerful people think he is

Just like Littlefinger.

Holy_Knight

2012-04-03, 04:59 PM

And by the way, Book!Littlefinger would've never been so stupid to tell Cersei right to her face what he knows. Yes Petyr, knowledge is power, but only until you're dead.
I haven't read the books, but when I saw that scene my exact words were: "He sure is stupid to threaten her like that!"

And like everyone else, I thought of Xykon at that part, too.

Eisenfavl

2012-04-03, 05:16 PM

When Xykon says "Power is power," it's deep, because that's the kind of universe he lives in.

Except that is more or less wrong. Correct usage of level 9 spell slots is significantly beyond anything Xykon can ever achieve without major leveling up, now. Redcloak can already shatter the universe in half with a single spell, which is due to being a (much more forgiven for choices) tier 1.
It is true that martial and spell power are similar when severely restricted. However, spellcasting advances in alephs, not intergers. A level 20 fighter might have 40 'power units'. A level 20 wizard would have an aleph 2 'power units'. That difference is beyond comparison. Martial power just.... doesn't matter at higher levels in the world he lives in.

Math_Mage

2012-04-03, 05:38 PM

Except that is more or less wrong. Correct usage of level 9 spell slots is significantly beyond anything Xykon can ever achieve without major leveling up, now. Redcloak can already shatter the universe in half with a single spell, which is due to being a (much more forgiven for choices) tier 1.
It is true that martial and spell power are similar when severely restricted. However, spellcasting advances in alephs, not intergers. A level 20 fighter might have 40 'power units'. A level 20 wizard would have an aleph 2 'power units'. That difference is beyond comparison. Martial power just.... doesn't matter at higher levels in the world he lives in.

I don't recall Xykon saying anything about martial power, or about being the epitome of his philosophy.

Chirurgie

2012-04-03, 06:27 PM

Delighted to have sparked this discussion and I knew many of you OOTSs would have thought the same.

Definitely agree that book Littlefinger would never have said such a statement in front of Cersei (or anyone for that matter!).

Now, the question I had in my mind was whether any of the writers read OOTS and was inspired by Zykon! I cannot recall the 'Power is power' line actually being from the book (yes Varys story about Sellsword in later episode is from the book).

Math_Mage

2012-04-03, 06:47 PM

Sith_Happens

2012-04-03, 06:48 PM

Now, the question I had in my mind was whether any of the writers read OOTS and was inspired by Zykon!

:xykon: It's Xykon. With an "X." Maximized Energy Drain.

JCarter426

2012-04-03, 07:49 PM

I thought the same thing. In fact, I commented on this to a non-OOTSer with whom I was watching it.

And I also think Xykon has a better grasp of the concept. Cersei only seems to care about physical power (or more specifically, the power to command people to inflict physical harm), just as V only cared about spells and caster level - neither of them realized that all power is power, which was Xykon's point.

Doc Kraken

2012-04-03, 08:45 PM

Definitely agree that book Littlefinger would never have said such a statement in front of Cersei (or anyone for that matter!).

This being Littlefinger, it's entirely possible he'd predicted how that would turn out and did it on purpose. Let Nale Cersei make a show about how much control she has, it doesn't matter to him...

blackjack217

2012-04-03, 08:54 PM

I think its a fine example of the reflexive property

Snails

2012-04-03, 10:00 PM

Except that is more or less wrong. Correct usage of level 9 spell slots is significantly beyond anything Xykon can ever achieve without major leveling up, now. Redcloak can already shatter the universe in half with a single spell, which is due to being a (much more forgiven for choices) tier 1.
It is true that martial and spell power are similar when severely restricted. However, spellcasting advances in alephs, not intergers. A level 20 fighter might have 40 'power units'. A level 20 wizard would have an aleph 2 'power units'. That difference is beyond comparison. Martial power just.... doesn't matter at higher levels in the world he lives in.

While Xykon says Power is Power, he does seem to think some power is more equal than others, much as you do. Such is likely to be Xykon's undoing precisely because of the nature of the world he lives in.

Narren

2012-04-04, 01:31 AM

Right before she said that line, I said it out loud as a joke. I was a little surprised when I heard her actually say it.

Winter

2012-04-04, 05:32 AM

Redcloak can already shatter the universe in half with a single spell,

Wuh? Please point me to a spell that can do that: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#ninthLevelClericSpells

Valyrian

2012-04-04, 07:24 AM

When Cersei says "Power is power," it's simple-minded and shallow, because that's emphatically NOT her universe. And she repeatedly demonstrates throughout the series that she doesn't understand the game, for all she plays at it. She tries to brute-force things, she makes herself overly visible, she exposes obvious weaknesses, she expends her control on petty things, and she gets used by other characters, when they don't simply ignore her.
Well said. Although I think it's important to make a difference between AGOT-Cersei and post-AGOT-Cersei. The former knew her cards pretty well and used them properly, without overstepping her bounds. It's only after she's become Queen Regent she starts with the whole "Lord Tywin with tits" act (whether you consider this a sensible in-story development for her character or bad writing is personal taste).

Cersei seems to think the game of thrones is over once you have the throne.

This being Littlefinger, it's entirely possible he'd predicted how that would turn out and did it on purpose. Let Nale Cersei make a show about how much control she has, it doesn't matter to him...
That'd be very shortsighted, though. First, she could've just continued to kill him. Sure he's a useful Master of Coin, but to risk a member of the council spilling her secrets?

Also, Littlefinger's whole success relies on getting past the higher nobility's radar. He's made Master of Coin because he's not a great Lord and therefore not seen as too ambitious. He gets send out to negotiate with their enemies because everyone thinks he's a worthless hostage. Openly antagonizing anyone of the high nobility (so, other than butting heads with Varys) would take this advantage away.

Winter

2012-04-04, 08:23 AM

Well said. Although I think it's important to make a difference between AGOT-Cersei and post-AGOT-Cersei. The former knew her cards pretty well and used them properly, without overstepping her bounds. It's only after she's become Queen Regent she starts with the whole "Lord Tywin with tits" act (whether you consider this a sensible in-story development for her character or bad writing is personal taste).

No, there is no difference. Before, she had no need to actually "do" something. Everything ran basically without her meddling. The Council helped her, her husband (and for the rest of aGoT her son as well) was bascially undisputed king, everything was clear and she was accepted.
She did not have to do something but she has been as stupid as she was later on.
(Don't read the spoiler unless you have read most of A Song of Ice and Fire!)
Especially when she wanted power for herself stuff started to really go down. And down. And down. But that won't happen until a tad later. But once her son is out of the throne, things start to detoriate at lightspeed.

And I think the "Lord Tywin with tits" is very good writing. Because it becomes very clear she tries to be that, but utterly fails with basically with every move she makes because she is a) too stupid and b) too emotional for that (unlike Tywin or Tyrion who both are actually able to play that game).

kanachi

2012-04-04, 09:03 AM

Xykon ethos is simply that your only powerful in a situation if you have power. The trick is to ensure that this power entends into all things and that it cant be taken from you.

Xykon is however both arogant and fool enough to believe that he has perfected the above mantra, ultimately this will be his undoing. If an angry human with a broken sword can pick you up and throw you into a gate (almost destroying you) you should have learned this lesson already.

Xykon (just like Cersei) believes in his own power to completely a failing which red cloak has been exploiting for a while.

So in my opinion this marks the two characters as very much the same and they will both fail because of it.

guguma

2012-04-04, 02:57 PM

I must admit that it was a lame battle of words, almost everything can manifest itself as power (even weakness), so Littlefinger's statement is true when he says knowledge is power, Cersei responds with authority is power which is also true, she did not mean to say "power is power" which is a lame statement, she meant "in this current situation I am more powerful than you, I have more resources I can manifest into power"

Think about it, ones wealth, looks, endurance, agility, physical strength, intelligence, social circle, voice, height, authority, titles, lineage, posessions... all of these are power

Even ones weaknesses, physical weakness can be used to manipulate others, ones not so significant handicap can grant one a handicapped parking space, etc.

A person who understands power, becomes powerful by converting all the resources one has into power, and understands how powerful his opponent is and does not engage until s/he is more powerful...

Math_Mage

2012-04-04, 03:15 PM

Even ones weaknesses, physical weakness can be used to manipulate others, ones not so significant handicap can grant one a handicapped parking space, etc.

A more pertinent (and less potentially offensive) illustration of this point is Tyrion's use of his own malformed features as a disarming opening gambit in many situations.

Bastian

2012-04-04, 08:08 PM

Sith_Happens

2012-04-05, 04:40 AM

Wuh? Please point me to a spell that can do that: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#ninthLevelClericSpells

The "shatter the universe in half" bit is hyberbole, but anyways, the spell you should be looking at is probably this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), which Redcloak has already been seen casting. For the low, low price of 1000 XP, he can summon something that would actually make Xykon break a sweat (or at the very least pay attention). Never mind what a well-placed Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) can do provided the Dark One is in a good mood.

Winter

2012-04-05, 05:01 AM

The "shatter the universe in half" bit is hyberbole, but anyways, the spell you should be looking at is probably this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), which Redcloak has already been seen casting. For the low, low price of 1000 XP, he can summon something that would actually make Xykon break a sweat (or at the very least pay attention). Never mind what a well-placed Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) can do provided the Dark One is in a good mood.

"Miracle" is limited by the description text as well as by the power of the god in question (as in he cannot grant you something he cannot do himself), so "shattering the universe" is far, far out of it's capability.

"Gate" is even further away. Yes, you can get some powerful beings, but it's still twenty of fifty entire leagues below what you claimed it was.

Yes, level 9 spells are nice and awesome, but claiming they provide Redcloak with Power even near what you claimed they do is totally off.
It's like selling a 30 mm Gatling Gun as 100 Megaton Hydrogen Bomb. Yes, it has power as you can use it to shoot a main battle tank to scrap metal and one of the most powerful weapons around, but it's very, very, very, veerrrry far away from what you claimed it was.

In addition: claiming that Cleric Level 9 Spells provide the caster with significantly more power than Arcance Level 9 Spells is another thing I really don't subscribe to.

Psyren

2012-04-05, 08:41 AM

Sounds like Xykon and Cersei are both members. (http://xkcd.com/703/)

Doug Lampert

2012-04-05, 09:25 AM

In addition: claiming that Cleric Level 9 Spells provide the caster with significantly more power than Arcance Level 9 Spells is another thing I really don't subscribe to.

I don't think he claimed that, he claimed Redcloak is more powerful than Xykon, and Xykon's level 9s are known, and THEY SUCK.

Seriously. Meteor swarm?

There are about 6 REALLY GOOD level 9 spells. Meteor swarm isn't one of them (neither is soul bind or enervation). There are many many good level 9 spells. Meteor swarm isn't one of them either (the other two are).

So Redcloak is more powerful than Xykon, because Redcloak has access to Miracle and Gate. Two of the best spells, and Xykon has access to none of the best spells and only two of the good ones (both of limited utility, which is why they are good not great, soul bind and enervation are golden for a wizard who can use them when appropriate, not for a sorcerer who's stuck).

If Xykon's level 9s were Shapechange, Gate, and Astral Projection then I doubt that anyone would claim Redcloak is stronger. But they are not.

They are soul bind, inervation, and meteor swarm.

Eisenfavl

2012-04-05, 09:26 AM

"
Yes, level 9 spells are nice and awesome, but claiming they provide Redcloak with Power even near what you claimed they do is totally off.
It's like selling a 30 mm Gatling Gun as 100 Megaton Hydrogen Bomb. Yes, it has power as you can use it to shoot a main battle tank to scrap metal and one of the most powerful weapons around, but it's very, very, very, veerrrry far away from what you claimed it was.

In addition: claiming that Cleric Level 9 Spells provide the caster with significantly more power than Arcance Level 9 Spells is another thing I really don't subscribe to.
Gate in a solar. Tell it to gate in another solar as a free action. Continue the chain. Suddenly, infinite (well, aleph null) solars in one round.
And who said that divine is more powerful than arcane? Xykon is a tier 2 because he is a sorcerer, i.e. has a set spell list, which we have seen and know doesn't have any of the major high level players, like polymorph any object, shapechange, greater planer binding, gate, etc etc.

OOTS appears to not have an infinite world, and rather a finite earth like planet. As such, Redcloak could literally create multiple planets worth of angels and just attack every person on the world at once with a solar after one round of casting.
And this is in core. Nevermind that he could cast Mind-Rape on Tsukkio to make her his ever-loyal minion, DMM persist spells to become CoDzilla, and similar godlike shenanigans with research.

Haldir

2012-04-05, 01:18 PM

Redcloak has the phylactery and enough spellpower to destroy it, even if he has to resort to a miracle. The power is all his.

Roland Itiative

2012-04-05, 01:36 PM

Redcloak has the phylactery and enough spellpower to destroy it, even if he has to resort to a miracle. The power is all his.

He still can't deal with the very pissed of Xykon that will come after him afterwards. Destroying the phylactery will just keep Xykon from creating a new body, not kill him outright.

Doug Lampert

2012-04-05, 01:55 PM

He still can't deal with the very pissed of Xykon that will come after him afterwards. Destroying the phylactery will just keep Xykon from creating a new body, not kill him outright.

Remember to cast "Death Ward" prior to fighting Xykon. (his only high level attack that's any good now does nothing). Cast the various protection from elements spells (his meteor swarm is now basically 4 touch attacks for 2d6 damage each, yawn), most of his other spells are hit even worse.

Round 1) Hit Xykon with a quickened dimensional anchor. Make quib about sorcerer's inability to use the only decent core metamagic. Gate in Solar, tell it to kill the evil lich guy over there. [Or chain gate if using rules as written and win the game. Whatever.]

Round 2) Gate in Planetar, ditto on orders.

Laugh at Xykon as a futile clown till he thinks to cast Superb Dispelling and wastes an action and an epic slot to do so while being hit by two high powered outsiders (assuming he ever gets a free action), and then gate self to Dark One's home plane and hang with the boss till Xykon is dead from the two outsiders.

If this doesn't work, rinse and repeat as needed. Or alter the tactics to fix whatever didn't work. The ability to alter tactics to fit the foe is one of those little edges sorcerers mostly lack.

Sith_Happens

2012-04-05, 06:13 PM

"Miracle" is limited by the description text as well as by the power of the god in question (as in he cannot grant you something he cannot do himself), so "shattering the universe" is far, far out of it's capability.

"Gate" is even further away. Yes, you can get some powerful beings, but it's still twenty of fifty entire leagues below what you claimed it was.

Yes, level 9 spells are nice and awesome, but claiming they provide Redcloak with Power even near what you claimed they do is totally off.
It's like selling a 30 mm Gatling Gun as 100 Megaton Hydrogen Bomb. Yes, it has power as you can use it to shoot a main battle tank to scrap metal and one of the most powerful weapons around, but it's very, very, very, veerrrry far away from what you claimed it was.

In addition: claiming that Cleric Level 9 Spells provide the caster with significantly more power than Arcance Level 9 Spells is another thing I really don't subscribe to.

The "shatter the universe in half" bit is hyberbole,

hyberbole,

Hyperbole (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole?s=t).:smalltongue:

I don't think he claimed that, he claimed Redcloak is more powerful than Xykon, and Xykon's level 9s are known, and THEY SUCK.

Seriously. Meteor swarm?

There are about 6 REALLY GOOD level 9 spells. Meteor swarm isn't one of them (neither is soul bind or enervation). There are many many good level 9 spells. Meteor swarm isn't one of them either (the other two are).

So Redcloak is more powerful than Xykon, because Redcloak has access to Miracle and Gate. Two of the best spells, and Xykon has access to none of the best spells and only two of the good ones (both of limited utility, which is why they are good not great, soul bind and enervation are golden for a wizard who can use them when appropriate, not for a sorcerer who's stuck).

If Xykon's level 9s were Shapechange, Gate, and Astral Projection then I doubt that anyone would claim Redcloak is stronger. But they are not.

They are soul bind, inervation, and meteor swarm.

You know, everyone seems to forget that there's an epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellKnowledge) for that. Given the common opinion that Xykon is at least 27th level, that gives him at least five epic feats (including bonus epic feats), only two of which we can pin down (Epic Spellcasting and an epic craft feat, probably Wonderous Item). That means he could have at least six more 9th level spells, something that O-Chul wouldn't have known or probably even suspected when he wrote the list provided that he's only seen the default three.

Not to mention epic spells. Xykon can have as many of those as he wants (limited only by time, which he's had a lot of), and they can be pretty much anything that Rich wants him to be able to do with magic for whatever reason (see: Cloister).

Kish

2012-04-05, 08:25 PM

If Redcloak ever Gates in a solar, he's a dead goblin.

Snails

2012-04-05, 10:36 PM

You know, everyone seems to forget that there's an epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellKnowledge) for that. Given the common opinion that Xykon is at least 27th level, that gives him at least five epic feats (including bonus epic feats), only two of which we can pin down (Epic Spellcasting and an epic craft feat, probably Wonderous Item). That means he could have at least six more 9th level spells, something that O-Chul wouldn't have known or probably even suspected when he wrote the list provided that he's only seen the default three.

Not to mention epic spells. Xykon can have as many of those as he wants (limited only by time, which he's had a lot of), and they can be pretty much anything that Rich wants him to be able to do with magic for whatever reason (see: Cloister).

(A) It is the common opinion that if Xykon's character sheet strictly adheres to the rules as written, then he is very likely to be 27th level or higher.

(B) It is also the common opinion that most characters in OotS probably do not adhere to the rules as written. The Giant himself has said explicitly that he is not interested in adhering to the rules in the manner that would allow (A) to be compelling at all.

The fact is the Xykon was probably just 15thish level when first conceived of by the Giant as a possibly reoccuring villain who would stupidly allow himself to get chucked through a Gate. As things were going well, the Giant indulged in a bit of "well, maybe he is a bit higher" for really the best artistic reasons.

It would not surprise me in the least if Xykon was actually just 21st or 22nd level. With the sole exception of one single epic spell, his demonstrated abilities just are not going to wow any decent statted out 18th level PC. And if we want to optimize Xykon a bit, it is not so hard to imagine how he could be just 21st level and still follow the letter of the rules.

Doug Lampert

2012-04-06, 10:44 AM

If Redcloak ever Gates in a solar, he's a dead goblin.

That's because a solar he has COMPLETE CONTROL OVER would rather kill him than a lich, right?

Seriously, gate gives him the ability to issue orders for 17 rounds, no save, no resistance, no spell resistance, no volition, no free will. Just do absolute obedience.

Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

So Redcloak has complete control for 17 rounds, after which the solar leaves, and he's ordering the solar to do something it wants to do (aka kill a lich).

I'm really not seeing why he's dead here.

Fenice

2012-04-06, 11:04 AM

Gate in a solar. Tell it to gate in another solar as a free action. Continue the chain. Suddenly, infinite (well, aleph null) solars in one round.
I know minmaxers aren't known for their sense of reality, but... But come on, the spell Gate calls existing creatures, it doesn't create them! What tells you that so many solars even exist in the first place? :smalltongue:

That's because a solar he has COMPLETE CONTROL OVER would rather kill him than a lich, right?
Redcloak can't use Gate to call and control a solar. Evil clerics can't cast good spells, and Gate takes the good descriptor when used to call a good creature.

Haldir

2012-04-06, 01:29 PM

He still can't deal with the very pissed of Xykon that will come after him afterwards. Destroying the phylactery will just keep Xykon from creating a new body, not kill him outright.

Even without Gate shennanigans, Redcloak is still a cleric, and has great power to defeat undead, even those objectively more powerful than he.

Likewise, we know from the fight between Thog and Roy, (and Xykon's brilliant speech to V) that objective power isn't everything. Redcloak is clever, he's got the (strategic) initiative over Xykon in that he knows a confrontation is imminent and can prepare for it in a much more targetted way, afterall, Xykon's spells are set and Redcloaks are variable.

So yes, he can and will deal with Xykon, and probably handily, perhaps with the help of the OOTS or some other group of heroes he can fenangle into attacking the evil lich sorcerer.

Doug Lampert

2012-04-06, 01:35 PM

I know minmaxers aren't known for their sense of reality, but... But come on, the spell Gate calls existing creatures, it doesn't create them! What tells you that so many solars even exist in the first place? :smalltongue:

The actually relevant limit on chain gating is that no sane GM will let it work at all. It's RAW, but who cares?

Limiting it to "every solar in existence" rather than an infinite number isn't really much of a limit in actual play unless the total number of solars is, like, one (in which case the solar is unique and can't be compelled by gate anyway).

As far as I'm concerned if it automatically returns at the end of the spell, it's summoned, I simply DO NOT CARE that the rules say it's "conjuration (calling)" rather than "conjuration (summoning)" in the spell description. Spells that bring an outside in for a short time and make it do stuff and then send it home are obviously summoning, that's what that subschool does. And therefor the summoning limits apply, the creature can't use its own summons spell-likes, and can't use any spell with an XP cost or any spell-like that would have an XP cost if a spell. What gate? What wish?

Simple and straightforward. I simply assume the paragraph about short services forgot to mention that "if used this way the spell is of the summoning subschool".

Redcloak can't use Gate to call and control a solar. Evil clerics can't cast good spells, and Gate takes the good descriptor when used to call a good creature.

True, as an evil cleric of an evil god he can't actually call a good creature. That would be an edge for Xykon if he had any spells as good as gate.

Fortunately there are plenty of other outsiders that will do. Use two Pit Fiends and then go for tea with the dark one while they're fighting Xykon.

DougL

Fenice

2012-04-06, 02:35 PM

Note that I'm not saying that Redcloak isn't obscenely powerful and that he couldn't crash entire civilizations. I'm merely saying that this:

As such, Redcloak could literally create multiple planets worth of angels and just attack every person on the world at once with a solar after one round of casting.
isn't going to happen.

Also, casting Gate in this way requires XP and you can't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) cast a spell that requires XP if you would end up losing a level in the process. Who tells you that the called solar (and all the subsequent solars) has those XP to spend?

Doug Lampert

2012-04-06, 06:33 PM

Note that I'm not saying that Redcloak isn't obscenely powerful and that he couldn't crash entire civilizations. I'm merely saying that this:

isn't going to happen.

Also, casting Gate in this way requires XP and you can't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) cast a spell that requires XP if you would end up losing a level in the process. Who tells you that the called solar (and all the subsequent solars) has those XP to spend?

Or even has the spell prepared. Casting as a level 20 cleric doesn't tell you what spells it's got prepared, gate's a fair choice, but the rules don't specify it and its not on the suggested list.

OTOH spell-likes avoid components, and the solars do get wish as a spell-like by rules as written, so given a calling spell you can have them wish for a ring of three wishes, then there are candles of invocation.

You can argue that the wishs from the ring can't make items, because of the XP cost, but spell-like wishes ignore the components, including XP. Thus an Efreet or whatever can make two candles of invocation, one ring of three wishes, and repeat for as many effreets as there are.

You can chain gate stuff if you play RAW, which is a good reason not to play RAW.

russdm

2012-04-06, 07:35 PM

Cersei making the comment "Power is Power" is more wishful thinking on her part than any actually intelligence. She lacks everything that is needed to actually rule, so she is just making comments.

Xykon has everything that Cersei should have had if she wanted to rule. As a result he can say taht "Power is Power" and it works. Her father Tywin understand how to rule properly, a lesson that Cersei has never bothered to learn and how damaging that fact is shows throughout the tv show but more so the books. Even Jaime mentions how stupid Cersei's "Lord Tywin with Tits" business is.

Cersei is not Tywin. She will never be able to rule effectively nor be able to maintain any power. After all, she let Joffrey kill Stark instead of stopping it despite having the power to do so. She chooses to believe in her power, which she actually has none of, decides to employ it like a cudgel and of course it doesn't work because Cersei is a completely stupid idiot! She happens to be more of an idiot than Hodor is.

I don't expect for her to solve any problems, after all, she caused most of them herself anyway.