Combo Check: Butterfly Sting and Seize the Moment

[Ravens_cry]

Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical)allows you, presumably a two weapon fighting rogue or ninja with a high crit range, low crit multiplier, weapon, to forgo a confirmed Critical hit to grant one to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack who "automatically confirms the hit as a critical."
Seize the Moment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/seize-the-moment-combat-teamwork) give you an Attack of Opportunity when your ally who shares this team work feat confirms a critical hit.
Now, if I am reading this right, this could be a real meat grinder as a)Your ally, presumably a big beefy guy with a low critical range, high critical multiplier weapon, gets an attack of opportunity when you confirm with Butterfly Sting (it doesn't say you don't confirm, only that you don't get the effect) AND gets a free critical on their next attack that hits on their turn.
But wait, there's more, since they get a critical, which is confirmed automatically but still confirms, you ALSO get an Attack of Opportunity.
Set blender to "liquefy", baby! :smallbiggrin:
At least, if this works.
My question for the Playground is, does it?
Or am I just reading this wrong?

[Doorhandle]

Don't know if it's 100% legit, but even so, I'm pretty sure the inquisitors and cavileirs need to change their pants afer seeing this. :smallbiggrin:

[XionUnborn01]

Reading the two feats, it works like you said. At least as far as I can tell it does.

You threaten a crit, confirm it, chose to lose the enhanced damage from the crit and any other crit abilities, next ally attacks and automatically confirms a crit on the target, you make your AoO.

Seems legit to me.

[Ravens_cry]

Reading the two feats, it works like you said. At least as far as I can tell it does.

You threaten a crit, confirm it, ally with team work feat gets AoO, chose to lose the enhanced damage from the crit and any other crit abilities, next ally attacks and automatically confirms a crit on the target, you make your AoO.

Seems legit to me.
As you said, I was pretty sure, about, but do the bolded changes work.

[Lord Tyger]

Looking at the feats, I think that your Ally's attack of opportunity would have to be his automatic critical, since it specifies the "Next ally to hit the target before the start of your next turn."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not so much different from Aptitude Weapon + Keen Kukri + Lightning Mace + Snap Kick combo.

[Amphetryon]

It also appears to need 5 feats to work, 3 of which (at a minimum) you and your ally need to share. Don't know that I'd call it "broken" but it's potentially pretty strong.

[Ravens_cry]

Looking at the feats, I think that your Ally's attack of opportunity would have to be his automatic critical, since it specifies the "Next ally to hit the target before the start of your next turn."
Yes, but isn't there a rule that states attacks of opportunity happen just before the events that trigger them?
My biggest question is I guess, is it worth it?
It is indeed a lot of feats.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, but isn't there a rule that states attacks of opportunity happen just before the events that trigger them?
My biggest question is I guess, is it worth it?
It is indeed a lot of feats.

If you and an ally are both Fighters or Warblades (when allowed) with feats to spare, it could be. I'll leave it to others to speculate as to the viability of a party with two Fighters or Warblades taking up nearly 1/2 the presumed party space.

[GreenZ]

This combo works perfectly, though this requires a very specific party set-up to deal the insane amounts of damage.

Add in Disposable Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/disposable-weapon) for even more shenanigans.

I used a two-weapon fighting fighter based around this combo once with a friendly Barbarian buddy to provide the x4 critting scythe and a Magus who loved having shocking grasps crit pretty much every round. It's a great feeling when the Barbarian attacks 4 times and deals x4 crit damage on each hit because you set him up. :smallcool:

[Ravens_cry]

If you and an ally are both Fighters or Warblades (when allowed) with feats to spare, it could be. I'll leave it to others to speculate as to the viability of a party with two Fighters or Warblades taking up nearly 1/2 the presumed party space.


I definitely see one side being a Fighter, but the plan is for the other side to be a Rogue or Pathfinder Ninja. The reason is simple, precision damage dealers don't gain much from criticals, but those that use two weapon fighting with high critical range, get them mathematically more often.
Even just Butterfly Sting allows you to pass them on to someone who can use them, while Seize the Moment allows you to benefit from a AoO, which could be, indeed is likely to be, a sneak attack.

[Amphetryon]

I definitely see one side being a Fighter, but the plan is for the other side to be a Rogue or Pathfinder Ninja. The reason is simple, precision damage dealers don't gain much from criticals, but those that use two weapon fighting with high critical range, get them mathematically more often.
Even just Butterfly Sting allows you to pass them on to someone who can use them, while Seize the Moment allows you to benefit from a AoO, which could be, indeed is likely to be, a sneak attack.
Can you get Craven into your Pathfinder games? If so, I'd be hard-pressed to squeeze in the requisite 3 feats for a Rogue or PFN quickly enough to really make the combo feel worthwhile without flaws.

[Ravens_cry]

In the games I play?
Sadly, no.

[JadePhoenix]

Not so much different from Aptitude Weapon + Keen Kukri + Lightning Mace + Snap Kick combo.

Except it's RAW =p

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except it's RAW =p

So is Aptitude + Keen Kukri + Lightning Mace. It's in the realm of TO, where no one in their right mind would actually bring it into a game, but by RAW, it's legit.

[Cieyrin]

Not so much different from Aptitude Weapon + Keen Kukri + Lightning Mace + Snap Kick combo.

There's a lack of Roundabout Kick in there. :smallwink:


Don't know if it's 100% legit, but even so, I'm pretty sure the inquisitors and cavaliers need to change their pants afer seeing this. :smallbiggrin:

Emphasizing this, as a Cavalier or Tactician Fighter can save some feats here by getting the Teamwork feat themselves and then using Tactician to share it with everybody, so you can dogpile AoOs on the poor sap after a Butterfly Sting kicks in.

[JadePhoenix]

So is Aptitude + Keen Kukri + Lightning Mace. It's in the realm of TO, where no one in their right mind would actually bring it into a game, but by RAW, it's legit.

Curmudgeon already proved it isn't.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Curmudgeon already proved it isn't.

I respectfully disagree, as do a majority of others. Aptitude lets you treat your weapon as being any other weapon for purposes of working with feats. So it lets Kukri count as Light Maces for purposes of Lightning Mace. It's really that simple.

[grarrrg]

Emphasizing this, as a Cavalier or Tactician Fighter can save some feats here by getting the Teamwork feat themselves and then using Tactician to share it with everybody, so you can dogpile AoOs on the poor sap after a Butterfly Sting kicks in.

Holy Tactician Paladin will get you the same ability WITHOUT the duration/per-day-uses.

[JadePhoenix]

I respectfully disagree, as do a majority of others. Aptitude lets you treat your weapon as being any other weapon for purposes of working with feats. So it lets Kukri count as Light Maces for purposes of Lightning Mace. It's really that simple.

It's also very simple to notice the Warblade ability of the same name, restricted to a list of feats, a list of feats mentioned in the Aptitude description. Aptitude weapons working is wishful thinking and trying to force RAW through a DM's throat. It's obviously not the designers intent for it to work that way and even RAW it is debatable (like Curmudgeon did). An unelegant RAW abuse, just like bucket healing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's also very simple to notice the Warblade ability of the same name, restricted to a list of feats, a list of feats mentioned in the Aptitude description. Aptitude weapons working is wishful thinking and trying to force RAW through a DM's throat. It's obviously not the designers intent for it to work that way and even RAW it is debatable (like Curmudgeon did). An unelegant RAW abuse, just like bucket healing.

And none of this sophistry changes, alters, or contradicts my statement in the slightest.

"But it is similar to..." is a specious argument at best. The item enhancement may well have deliberately excluded the restrictions placed on the class ability to make it worth bothering with.

As far as 'force RAW through a DM's throat', perhaps you missed the part in my post which called it:


It's in the realm of TO, where no one in their right mind would actually bring it into a game, but by RAW, it's legit.

TO = Theoretical Optimization. As in "no sane GM would let this fly in an actual game, but it's a cute little trick". It's right up there with Pun-Pun, the Omnisifier, the Idiot d2 Crusader, and other such shenanigans.

[stack]

The combo certainly has ridiculous damage potential, but how many enemies are going to be alive after the fighter gets his auto-crit with his scythe (x-burst and power attack to taste)?

[JadePhoenix]

And none of this sophistry changes, alters, or contradicts my statement in the slightest.

You are indeed correct. I apologize.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You are indeed correct. I apologize.

No need to apologize, I enjoy a good debate.

There's many different types of Optimization out there. RPers, whether or not they admit it, optimize pretty heavily, if not to the same goal as the powergamers do.

TO, or Theoretical Optimization, employs tactics which are legitimate, but no one in their right mind would try to employ it in an actual game, unless the entire campaign was an over-the-top TO game.

PO, or Practical Optimization, on the other hand, are builds which are strong, but doesn't employ things like NI loops. Basically, its something you might bring to a game which is designed for the power level you're looking at.

As an example, check out my build Takahashi no Onisan. He's an example of PO. He's got quite a strong trick, and assuming they don't have a defense against it, he can do a really good job of area-effect lockdown. However, he doesn't employ infinite loops, exploding dice paradigms, or recursive spellcasting. And if you're immune to his one trick.. he's really not all that scary. Pun intended.

[Ravens_cry]

I was thinking of maybe making this build work through Leadership, that way I am not 'ordering' other players around.
But who would be better as the cohort, the high crit, low multiplier or the low crit, high multiplier?

[Cieyrin]

I was thinking of maybe making this build work through Leadership, that way I am not 'ordering' other players around.
But who would be better as the cohort, the high crit, low multiplier or the low crit, high multiplier?

I'd suggest, instead of trying to harangue a DM into allowing Leadership, pursuing Tactician Fighter, Holy Tactician Paladin or Cavalier so that you devote your build to it and just project the Teamwork feat to your crit buddy of choice where the situation warrants it. The major bottleneck is the BAB +8 required by Improved Critical, so you'll have to work out when to get that in so you can take Seize the Moment and project it from there.

[Doorhandle]

The combo certainly has ridiculous damage potential, but how many enemies are going to be alive after the fighter gets his auto-crit with his scythe (x-burst and power attack to taste)?


Not to shamlessly plug anything, buuuuuuut:

"There is no overkill: there is only "Open fire' and "I need to reload."

Also, it may be a 4x crit, but it only does damage equivalent to 4 attacks which is usually not enough to ENTIERLEY kill a brute in the first round of combat at that point, so you will need at least one round of this rampage.

Also, yeah, I was about to say that Tactician or Cavalier would be the way to go with this thing. Alternately, be an inquisitor with the Animal , and just get the feats between you and your animal companion using that feat that lets you up your effective druid level of course

I think if rouge is unavailable fopr crit-fishing that a Magus would do a decent job, due to the fact they rely on critical for spellstrike, and maybe a weapon-using monk*, due to sheer weight of attacks on the monk’s part. Monks may acutally be better for this, as they can get combat reflexes and improved critical as bonus feats.

*(Generally a Kama or something else with the monk quality and 19-20 Crit; no real monk weapons that are 18-20 unless there is a god that lets you use one such weapon to flurry with the Crusader's Flurry feat.)

Edit: If you're willing to be a Crit-Fisher monk, take your first level as a Cleric of Sarene in order to use Crusader's flurry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/crusader-s-flurry) with a scmitair, in order to have all the critical hits. Better yet, take one level of monk and get this as a cleric, as flurry B.A.B stacks with normal B.A.B, still leaving you with 6 attacks when flurrying.




The monk rules for flurry of blows state: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?

A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
[Source]

[Fitz10019]

The monk rules for flurry of blows state: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?

A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
[Source]

Level 1 flurry is defined as a -2 attack penalty. A Fighter19/Monk1 would flurry with a 'BAB' of 17.

[Doorhandle]

Close enough.

[Cieyrin]

Level 1 flurry is defined as a -2 attack penalty. A Fighter19/Monk1 would flurry with a 'BAB' of 17.

That -2 is from being treated as Two-Weapon Fighting, not a BAB penalty.

As for x4 crits not pulling as much slaughter, Gunslingers would beg to differ with their x4 firearms blowing fist sized holes in things. Even if it doesn't kill something, it'll severely injure a target and may force a Massive Damage check well before anyone else does. At level 1, a pistol wielding 'slinger with Point Blank Shot and Killer does 4d8+8 or 26 damage average, which will kill most things at that level. Go to level 5 for Firearm Training (let's say Dex 16 for sake of argument), Deadly Aim and a +1 pistol and damage increases to 4d8+36 or 54 average damage. Barbarians are probably managing more with a Greataxe or Scythe, Power Attack and Rage, let's say 16 Str non-raging like the Gunslinger and netting either 3d12+30 or 49.5 average or 8d4+40 or 60 average at 1st level and getting stupider at higher levels.

[Fitz10019]

That -2 is from being treated as Two-Weapon Fighting, not a BAB penalty.
I didn't say "BAB penalty." And a monk flurry's progression is only similar to 2WF at the earliest levels. The two are really unrelated.

[Cieyrin]

I didn't say "BAB penalty." And a monk flurry's progression is only similar to 2WF at the earliest levels. The two are really unrelated.


Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

I think the rules beg to differ to your interpretation.

[Fitz10019]

I didn't say "BAB penalty." And a monk flurry's progression is only similar to 2WF at the earliest levels. The two are really unrelated.
If you read further than the first paragraph of flurry, you'll understand my meaning. My point is it's not a useful comparison, and doesn't contribute to the OP's intended discussion... just like this comment!

[Tief]

This combo works perfectly, though this requires a very specific party set-up to deal the insane amounts of damage.

Add in Disposable Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/disposable-weapon) for even more shenanigans.

I used a two-weapon fighting fighter based around this combo once with a friendly Barbarian buddy to provide the x4 critting scythe and a Magus who loved having shocking grasps crit pretty much every round. It's a great feeling when the Barbarian attacks 4 times and deals x4 crit damage on each hit because you set him up. :smallcool:

I'm curious, using that disposable weapon feat, if you added in Catch off Guard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/catch-off-guard-combat) Would you be able to use endless amounts of improvised weapons (Such as sharped lead) to do this?
Or would Catch off Guard not make you proficent? / Would improved weapons not be fragile?

[Cieyrin]

I'm curious, using that disposable weapon feat, if you added in Catch off Guard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/catch-off-guard-combat) Would you be able to use endless amounts of improvised weapons (Such as sharped lead) to do this?
Or would Catch off Guard not make you proficent? / Would improved weapons not be fragile?

Improvised Weapons aren't 'Fragile' as the key word, so it doesn't really work together.

[Tief]

That's a shame, you would think most improvised weapons such as chairs are. Oh well

[manyslayer]

Employ this combo on a dvati and you don't need someone else to share the feats with.