BardBlade?

[BIGMamaSloth]

The next Campaign I'm playing in is war campaign as described in heroes of battle. I'm playing the party leader / Main fighter, and I was thinking about also doing some buffing stuff, So I was thinking either White raven Warblade or a bard or a marshal would be good for the job. I checked out marshal and I don't know why, it just wasn't really what I'm looking for. Then I saw the feat song of the White Raven, and realized bard and Warblade play nice together. So I'm thinking some kind of Bard multiclass warblade build, but other than song of the white raven, I don't even know where to start. Is this a workable Idea? If so how many levels of bard should I take,I was thinking starting as bard 2 warblade 3 or maybe just 1 bard level to pick up inspire courage? we're starting at level 5, and I planned to focus on White Raven and Iron heart. what are other useful feats? I can't be all about the buffing, as I'm still probably one of the parties main front liners. Sorry for rambling.

TL;DR I want to multiclass bard and warblade. What do?

[Goldfly]

I'd say you definitely want at least the second level of bard- 1st level spells and you get 1 IL from it, as opposed to 0.5 from just 1 level of bard. The other question is, do you want higher level bard spells? 6 is generally considered the most you should take.
Dragonfire Inspiration is always brilliant. Snowflake Wardance is also pretty good, particularly as an initiator.

[Lateral]

Marshals suck pretty badly (except for small dips for that one aura, but don't bother here), but bardblades and bardsaders are a very effective build. Generally, the build ends up going Bard 4/Warblade or Crusader 16- starting at 5th level, I'd recommend starting Bard 4/Warblade 1 in that order, since the only way you could get higher than 2nd level maneuvers at level 5 is to not start with any bard levels (I don't recommend it). Some things:


Inspire Courage is your best friend, the other songs less so. Optimize it, don't bother with the others as much.
You won't be able to take Song of the White Raven until 6th level this way, but that's not a big deal with only one Warblade level anyway.
You can choose to replace Inspire Competence (I think, or it may be another song, but I'm pretty sure it's Inspire Competence) for Song of the Heart as a bonus feat. Song of the Heart gives you an additional +1 to your Inspire Courage bonus. TAKE THIS AND NEVER LOOK BACK.
As mentioned above, Dragonfire Inspiration is also your friend. It allows you to replace your total Inspire Courage bonus with d6s of fire damage. This is usually better, and having the option is golden. I would suggest using Silverbrow Human as a base race, so that you can just take it as a feat- otherwise it generally takes a couple more, and you don't really have the spares.
Inspirational Boost is a swift-action first-level Bard spell that adds +1 to a use of IC. Take this, too- you should have enough castings for most of your IC uses, with a decent charisma.
Don't bother with Snowflake Wardance, your song uses are too precious. You'll get better results from Inspire Courage, and your party will love you more.
White Raven and Iron Heart are good choices, as is Diamond Mind.


For more information, I direct you to the:
Bard Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook)
Inspire Courage Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)
Warblade Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Also consider the Bardsader. It also benefits from Song of the White Raven, has some CHA-synergy.

That being said, you want to maximize Inspire Courage. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization)

I'm a big fan of going Bard 6/(Crusader or Warblade) 14, but not in that order.

Feats go something like

1st: Extra Music
H: Dragonfire Inspiration
3rd: Snowflake Wardance
6th: Song of the White Raven
Bard Bonus 6 (ECS): Song of the Heart

This is a much more caster orientated set-up, but some of it still applies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12979294&postcount=2).

[BIGMamaSloth]

As mentioned above, Dragonfire Inspiration is also your friend. It allows you to replace your total Inspire Courage bonus with d6s of fire damage. This is usually better, and having the option is golden. I would suggest using Silverbrow Human as a base race, so that you can just take it as a feat- otherwise it generally takes a couple more, and you don't really have the spares.

I got a no on the Dragon fire inspiration from my DM as dragons and therefore there lineage don't exist in his campaign world. the rest of your list sounds excellent though.

[Lateral]

1st: Extra Music
H: Dragonfire Inspiration
3rd: Snowflake Wardance
6th: Song of the White Raven
Bard Bonus 6 (ECS): Song of the Heart

...Why are you replacing Suggestion with SotH? Inspire Competence is far worse.


I got a no on the Dragon fire inspiration from my DM as dragons and therefore there lineage don't exist in his campaign world. the rest of your list sounds excellent though.
That's fine, then; you'll still be plenty effective.

[Coidzor]

Bard 4 and Warblade or Crusader 16. Bard 4 so you have 4 uses of bardic music without taking extra music and also access to the spell Inspirational Boost. Martial Adept 16 so that your final Initiator level is 18 and so you have 9ths. Also so you start off with IL 3 and can grab 2nd level maneuvers from the get go. Or you can leapfrog it as well. Starting off as a martial adept would be more durable if one starts at low levels rather than at mid levels or something.

Song of the White Raven at 6th level and you're pretty much golden. Other than consulting the inspire courage optimization handbook by Endarire (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) for what you want in order to boost Inspire Courage. Things likie dragonire inspiration, song of the heart, words of creation, the vest of legends, inspirational boost, etc...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

...Why are you replacing Suggestion with SotH? Inspire Competence is far worse.

Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence, that's why.

[Lateral]

Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence, that's why.

I'd have to recheck the wording on the alternate rule, but I'm pretty sure it bypasses prerequisites.

Edit: Eh, it's fairly ambiguous. Take it whichever way you like, but if you can't take it as a bonus at 3rd just take it as your regular feat- don't bother taking the extra two Bard levels, one free feat and a couple extra 2nd level spells aren't really worth the delayed maneuver levels and loss of BAB.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The next Campaign I'm playing in is war campaign as described in heroes of battle. I'm playing the party leader / Main fighter, and I was thinking about also doing some buffing stuff, So I was thinking either White raven Warblade or a bard or a marshal would be good for the job. I checked out marshal and I don't know why, it just wasn't really what I'm looking for. Then I saw the feat song of the White Raven, and realized bard and Warblade play nice together. So I'm thinking some kind of Bard multiclass warblade build, but other than song of the white raven, I don't even know where to start. Is this a workable Idea? If so how many levels of bard should I take,I was thinking starting as bard 2 warblade 3 or maybe just 1 bard level to pick up inspire courage? we're starting at level 5, and I planned to focus on White Raven and Iron heart. what are other useful feats? I can't be all about the buffing, as I'm still probably one of the parties main front liners. Sorry for rambling.

TL;DR I want to multiclass bard and warblade. What do?

If you're starting at level 5, I would suggest Bard 4/Warblade 1, which would give you access to first- and second-level spells, plus second-level maneuvers with your first level of Warblade (netting you three of them). From there, I'd take another level of Warblade (White Raven Tactics), two more levels of Bard (to 6, granting you Bardic Suggestion and an extra 1st- and 2nd-level spell), Warblade to 3 (either 1 or 2 levels), two of Bard (the first for third-level spells and second advances IL), and then Warblade from there:

Bard 4/Warblade 2/Bard 5th-6th/Warblade 3rd/Bard 7th-8th/Warblade X

For your spells, I would recommend (in order, italics are for the future):
0: Any cantrips of your choosing
1st: Critical Strike, Undersong, Inspirational Boost, Shock and Awe
2nd: Whirling Blade, Heroism, War Cry, Blur (you may trade Heroism away for Mirror Image once you gain Good Hope)
3rd: Haste, Good Hope, Slow

For your maneuvers:
Warblade 1: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Battle Leader's Charge, Leading the Charge (stance)
Warblade 2: Mind over Body
Warblade 3: White Raven Tactics
Warblade 4: Tactics of the Wolf (stance)

And so on.

Maneuvers you will want to pick up at some point (from feats or otherwise) are Steel Wind*, Insightful Strike or Greater Insightful Strike**, War Leader's Charge... And so on.
*At low levels
**At high levels

You may choose to optimize either vanilla Inspire Courage or Dragonfire Inspiration (either way, Inspirational Boost is useful; in the former, it's an extra +1 to-hit and so on, and in the latter, it's an extra d6 of fire damage to the party); if you do, try to pick up a weapon with the Harmonizing property (resumes your bardic performances for you as a free action when held for up to one minute) and then get Undersong as one of your 1st-level spells, which allows you to make Perform checks in place of Concentration checks (which you then use as all your saves with the Diamond Mind save maneuvers, plus for your damage rolls with Insightful Strike/Greater Insightful Strike). Critical Strike is basically the Keen weapon property for a round with some extra damage, Shock and Awe synergizes well with White Raven Tactics (win initiative, use Shock and Awe to tank every enemy's initiative to the point where the rest of your party can act; or around the middle in initiative and use White Raven Tactics to give them a second go, and activate Inspire Courage or Dragonfire Inspiration as a swift action as per Song of the White Raven). Good Hope/Heroism synergize with Dragonfire Inspiration (in that it stacks with them), War Cry synergizes well with Battle Leader's Charge, Whirling Blade is a viable ranged option at low levels (it's better if you focus on CHA), and Haste/Slow are... Haste/Slow.

If you optimize CHA, you can get the Slippers of Battledancing (DMGII), Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows (DMag), and Bow of Songs (MIC) to add a bunch to your attack and damage rolls and give you an alternative means of pushing out Bardic Music uses.

Hope that gives you a few ideas. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: If you have no desire to nab third-level spells, then there's no reason to take the 7th and 8th level of Bard, but I would still take it to 6th in order to grab actual second-level spell uses, plus Shock and Awe and War Cry as extra tricks up your sleeve. Haste and Slow are incredible, but if you have someone else to cast them, then they're not a big deal, and Good Hope is good, but doesn't stack with Bardic Music uses (meaning it's only good to take if you get Dragonfire Inspiration, which you don't).

[Lateral]

Ah... I'd call 9th level maneuvers a little better than 3rd level spells.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ah... I'd call 9th level maneuvers a little better than 3rd level spells.

I'd call it a 20th-level pipe dream. :smallwink:

Let's be honest here: He's starting at 5th-level. What's more likely to help him: a build that is complete by level 12 (and just sweetens up after), or the prospect of getting an encounter-ender as a capstone... If the campaign lasts that long?

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that you actually get it at 19th. The point is we're talking about holding out for the capstone, here, which may be better from an optimization standpoint, but is far from realistic (and thus far from practical optimization).

[Talionis]

Do you feel like you need 20 combined levels of Bard and Warblae/Crusader? Between items you can increase your level,but you get no bonus for having over twenty levels of Bard, so you might think to go into Jade Phoenix Mage or Eternal Blade.

I've also heard of generous DMs allowing any prestige class that allows White Raven Manuevers to also advance Song of White Raven bonuses, and while not RAW can easily be seen as RAI. Only legit reason for remaining RAW is to reward characters for staying in a base class.

If you get turn attempts, at high levels Trickery Devotion gives you a second performer further increasing bonuses and damage, just make sure you have a good way for the clone t attack without relying on Strength.

Palm throw from ,Master Thrower is interesting too with dragon fire inspiration because it effectively doubles your attacks and makes them touch.

[eclipsic]

I got a no on the Dragon fire inspiration from my DM as dragons and therefore there lineage don't exist in his campaign world. the rest of your list sounds excellent though.

My heart bleeds for you. Are there dungeons in this campaign, at least?

[Cog]

Between items you can increase your level,but you get no bonus for having over twenty levels of Bard...
Do you have a source for this? Things like Monk damage cap out because the table simply ends, but Inspire is a simple calculation based on level, and the same progression is indeed continued with the epic Bard.

[eggs]

Do you have a source for this? Things like Monk damage cap out because the table simply ends, but Inspire is a simple calculation based on level, and the same progression is indeed continued with the epic Bard.
I agree in theory, but in practice, it takes Bard level 26 to hit +5 inspire courage. Vest of Legends only brings a level 20 Bard to 25. A masterwork mandolin would bump that to 26 (I think it's the mandolin anyway; I always mix the instruments up), but would come at the opportunity cost of another masterwork instrument that would just flatout add 1.

I'm not sure how else to add effective levels for IC (beside downright weird stuff like Bloodlines + a IC-progressing PrC), so unless I'm overlooking something basic (which I may well be), shooting past level 20 isn't going to help much in terms of IC.

[Talionis]

I agree in theory, but in practice, it takes Bard level 26 to hit +5 inspire courage. Vest of Legends only brings a level 20 Bard to 25. A masterwork mandolin would bump that to 26 (I think it's the mandolin anyway; I always mix the instruments up), but would come at the opportunity cost of another masterwork instrument that would just flatout add 1.

I'm not sure how else to add effective levels for IC (beside downright weird stuff like Bloodlines + a IC-progressing PrC), so unless I'm overlooking something basic (which I may well be), shooting past level 20 isn't going to help much in terms of IC.

No, I don't have a source. I didn't realize it was a calculation. I just looked at the table.

But either way, the thought still stands that depending on what level you start and how much buff you want and whether you'll ever play epic levels. How much inspire courage do you really need? Which items will you wear? Can the last few levels just be non-bard, non-warblade/crusader?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As others have said, Bardblade is a solid choice.

One of the more common builds is Bard4/Warblade16, since you still only lose two IL and one BAB.

A prC you may wish to look into is War Chanter. Many of the class abilities are kind of meh, although twin song can be very useful, and Song of Legion, the capstone, is very nasty if used right. Everyone now effectively has full BAB. This helps out 3/4 BAB strikers tremendously, since you get iterative attacks as well.

The capstone is also exceedingly nasty when paired with someone who likes Summoned Minions. Speedbumps turn into cruise missiles when they get that significant a boost in BAB, plus being affected by your IC at the same time.

[Socratov]

As others have said, Bardblade is a solid choice.

One of the more common builds is Bard4/Warblade16, since you still only lose two IL and one BAB.

A prC you may wish to look into is War Chanter. Many of the class abilities are kind of meh, although twin song can be very useful, and Song of Legion, the capstone, is very nasty if used right. Everyone now effectively has full BAB. This helps out 3/4 BAB strikers tremendously, since you get iterative attacks as well.

The capstone is also exceedingly nasty when paired with someone who likes Summoned Minions. Speedbumps turn into cruise missiles when they get that significant a boost in BAB, plus being affected by your IC at the same time.

Your build is also a powerattacker's wet dream... or any build optimizing IC for that matter (they love you more with DFI, but it seems you can't use it, can't you refluff it into a fireelemental based inspiration or something?)

[Morph Bark]

Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence, that's why.

You can still replace Inspire Competence with Song of the Heart, as the specific rule allows it to be replaced that way. Bonus feats generally, unless otherwise specified, are granted even if you normally wouldn't qualify.

[Socratov]

wasn't SotH replacing a class feature? though inspire competence woudl be replaced by IIRC healing hymn, not bad to take on i guess

[Morph Bark]

Healing Hymn replaced Fascinate.