How Do you kill this?

[Harry]

How would someone kill a lumi with the learnean and the half golem templates the only way to kill a Learnean is to cut it's head off use a death affect or use disintegration a lumi has no neck its head floats so its immune and lumi are immune to death affects so the only way to kill it is to to cast disintegration but disintegration is spell resistance: yes so being a half golem makes you immune to it so PLAYGROUND how do you kill it?

[Mari01]

How would someone kill a lumi with the learnean and the half golem templates the only way to kill a Learnean is to cut it's head off use a death affect or use disintegration a lumi has no neck its head floats so its immune and lumi are immune to death affects so the only way to kill it is to to cast disintegration but disintegration is spell resistance: yes so being a half golem makes you immune to it so PLAYGROUND how do you kill it?

Where are you getting that plain Lumi are immune to death effects?

[Jeraa]

“Half-golem” is a template that can be added to any animal, beast, giant, humanoid creature, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter as the character).

Lumi are outsiders, and so can not be half-golems.


Where are you getting that plain Lumi are immune to death effects?


Body of Light (Su): A lumi’s body is infused with a softly glowing positive energy. It is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from inflict spells or chill touch).

It says "death spells", not "death effects". Though they are also immune to "magical death effects" as well. So by RAW, something like the assassins Death Attack can still kill a Lumi, as it isn't a spell, and it isn't magical.

[Mikeavelli]

Whoever is using this is being a smartass, and deserves to be smartassed back. Point out that the Multiheaded template allows you to sever their head by hitting the neck and dealing enough damage. The Lumi's "no head" ability only makes it immune to vorpal weapons, suffocation, and strangulation, it's nonexistent neck still has the same AC as the rest of its body, according to the Multiheaded template.

You will literally be swooping through empty air between its body and neck, dealing "damage" until the head falls off the body for no reason.

[Harry]

Where are you getting that plain Lumi are immune to death effects?

It says they are immune to death effects in there monster manual III entry Check The body of light (su)

[Harry]

Whoever is using this is being a smartass, and deserves to be smartassed back. Point out that the Multiheaded template allows you to sever their head by hitting the neck and dealing enough damage. The Lumi's "no head" ability only makes it immune to vorpal weapons, suffocation, and strangulation, it's nonexistent neck still has the same AC as the rest of its body, according to the Multiheaded template.

You will literally be swooping through empty air between its body and neck, dealing "damage" until the head falls off the body for no reason.

I want to beat him by RAW and RAI not by dm fiat and where does it say outsiders can't be half golems?

[Jeraa]

I want to beat him by raw not by dm fiat and where does it say outsiders can't be half golems?

In the half-golem template.


CREATING A HALF-GOLEM
“Half-golem” is a template that can be added to any animal, beast, giant, humanoid creature, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter as the character).

The half-golem template can only be applied to the creature types listed. Outsider is not listed, so Outsiders can not be half-golems. (Humanoid creature does not mean "creatures shaped like humans". It means "creatures with the humanoid type".)

[Cor1]

How do you kill it? Depends on how you define "killed".

"Vanquished for ever" : Get your Incantatrix to persist a time stop (yes you can, just have to maximize before persisting), plop a Selective Antimagic Field on the enemy (they're only immune to spells that admit Spell Resistance and AMF doesn't), a forcecage, more abjurations (Dimensional Lock?), then pour mud in the forcecage faster than it spills out, mud-to-stone the whole thing, then cover it in Quintessence.

Graphically, the Incantatrix disappears, then a second later the half-golem half-learnean half-lumi full-cheese is suddenly transformed into a timeless dead-magic blob of granite. Gift it to a Pit Fiend to make it someone else's problem to carry it to Hell, then watch the guy squirm trying to justify its coming back.

[Adindra]

I want to beat him by RAW and RAI not by dm fiat and where does it say outsiders can't be half golems?

it can only be applied to animals,beasts,humanoid creatures,magical beasts, or monstrous humanoids according to the template itself in the mm2

:source: books open infront of me

Edit: swordsage'd :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I want to beat him by RAW and RAI not by dm fiat and where does it say outsiders can't be half golems?
It's right in the original monster entry in MM2, page 210:

“Half-golem” is a template that can be added to any animal,
beast, giant, humanoid creature, magical beast, or monstrous
humanoid (referred to hereafter as the character).

[Jeraa]

Ways to kill a learnean Lumi:

non-magical, non-spell death effects (such as the assassins Death Attack)
ability damage/drain that is not a negative energy effect
poison
disease
drowning (Drowning is not suffocation)
Disintegrate (the multiheaded lernaean template says disintegrate will work, and its not a death effect)

And by RAW, Lumi are not immune to having their heads cut off. They are just immune to being decapitated by vorpal weapons.

[Harry]

Thanks everyone tomorrow I'll tell him the char is illegal thanks:smallsmile:

[Dancingdeath]

That still makes him pretty darn hard to kill even after removing the half golem template.

[Alienist]

Make a complete production out of it. Use props and models.

A storm giant/titan kicks in the door of the inn (and frankly, the whole of that side of the inn). It screams "where is the abomination that causes desolation?!!"

Then it sees the PC in question, grabs him and hauls him out through the wreckage. Where there is a whole gang of giants/titans. Go to great lengths describing how they try to kill him, one holding him while the others bash him with clubs, then swords, then hitting him with entire Hoover Dams worth of lightning, titanic's worth of cold/ice attacks, then another pulling out a staff of meteor swarms and using up every last charge on him.

Give them a cage of Vampires, they pull Vampires out of the cage and they bash him with the vamps, but levelling draining doesn't work!!! Oh noes!!!

Finally, in disgust, they throw him in the MEDUSA PIT.

Once he's been stoned, they pull him out, grind him down to the finest dust, stand around 'writing their names' in the dust (if you know what I mean) (do not eat the yellow ex-pc), then they shovel the resulting 'mortar' into a bag of holding, and drop it into a portable hole.

[Harry]

Make a complete production out of it. Use props and models.

A storm giant/titan kicks in the door of the inn (and frankly, the whole of that side of the inn). It screams "where is the abomination that causes desolation?!!"

Then it sees the PC in question, grabs him and hauls him out through the wreckage. Where there is a whole gang of giants/titans. Go to great lengths describing how they try to kill him, one holding him while the others bash him with clubs, then swords, then hitting him with entire Hoover Dams worth of lightning, titanic's worth of cold/ice attacks, then another pulling out a staff of meteor swarms and using up every last charge on him.

Give them a cage of Vampires, they pull Vampires out of the cage and they bash him with the vamps, but levelling draining doesn't work!!! Oh noes!!!

Finally, in disgust, they throw him in the MEDUSA PIT.

Once he's been stoned, they pull him out, grind him down to the finest dust, stand around 'writing their names' in the dust (if you know what I mean) (do not eat the yellow ex-pc), then they shovel the resulting 'mortar' into a bag of holding, and drop it into a portable hole.

I... I like your imagination

[grarrrg]

Step 1: KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Step 2: Did step 1 work?
If Yes > go Step 3, if No, go Step 1
Step 3: YAY FIRE!

[Agent 451]

Might not be the best move if you ever want the player to roll up a character again...

...On the other hand, I'd leave out the whizzing on his dusty grave bit and actually use his dust to make mortar. Use this cement to fix up some blemishes in you favorite inn, or to secure a commonly used message board or sign post. You can then have said landmark being haunted by a completely powerless and harmless half golem learnean lumi ghost, who recants his tale of woe to anyone who would carelessly cross the immortal laws of the DM.

[eggs]

Get Supernatural Baleful Polymorph. Turn the character into a trout. Serve with lemon and butter.

[Harry]

I just remembered he also has the half troll template so he can use that stupid half golem template back to the drawing board again how do we kill this stupid thing? I didn't say it earlier because I didnt know it changed anything

[Agent 451]

Technically the LA for half-golem is --, which means a PC can't actually take it anyways...

[Mikeavelli]

I want to beat him by RAW and RAI not by dm fiat and where does it say outsiders can't be half golems?

I'm dead serious that this is RAW.
From the Lumi:



Floating Head (Ex): A lumi’s head naturally floats a few inches above its shoulders. The creature can rotate its head
in any direction but cannot raise, lower, or otherwise move
its head away from where it floats; an unseen force prevents
others from moving its head as well. Opponents who fl ank a
lumi do not gain the normal +2 bonus on attack rolls. Lumi
are immune to the decapitation power of a vorpal weapon.
They may not be strangled and are immune to suffocation

That's all it's immune to. By RAW, it only gets immunity to things that it's specifically given immunity to, and It's not immune to hit point damage direct at its (supposedly nonexistent) neck.

Meanwhile, the Multiheaded template specifically adds in the vulnerability to having its head chopped off:




Severing a head requires hitting the creature's
neck (same AC as creature) with a slashing weapon
and dealing damage equal to the multiheaded creature's
original hit point total divided by the original number of
heads. (The player must declare an attack against the neck
just before making the attack roll.) The severed head dies,
and a natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further
blood loss. The creature can no longer attack with the severed
head but takes no other penalties. A severed head
cannot regrow naturally.



While RAI and DM fiat can certainly declare that the neckless Lumi is also immune to hit point damage, RAW says it's vulnerable.

[Harry]

I'm dead serious that this is RAW.
From the Lumi:




That's all it's immune to. By RAW, it only gets immunity to things that it's specifically given immunity to, and It's not immune to hit point damage direct at its (supposedly nonexistent) neck.

Meanwhile, the Multiheaded template specifically adds in the vulnerability to having its head chopped off:



While RAI and DM fiat can certainly declare that the neckless Lumi is also immune to hit point damage, RAW says it's vulnerable.

As I said I want to beat him by RAW and by RAI and it makes sense by RAI that it should be immune also as broken as it sounds I allow my pcs to use dm only templates it usually balances out because I optimize the BBEG and his minions but the player challenged me that there is no way for me to kill it by raw and rai with out dm fiat and....... he might be right

[Agent 451]

What level is the PC at? His LA must be enormous. +4 from half-troll, +2 for Lumi, +2 from multiheaded if one extra head (and 2 racial HD), and +2 for Lernaean = 12 plus class levels. Are we missing anything?

Edit: Yes, we are. I forgot that Lumi itself has 2 racial HD.

[Harry]

What level is the PC at? His LA must be enormous. +4 from half-troll, +2 for Lumi, +2 from multiheaded if one extra head (and 2 racial HD), and +2 for Lernaean = 12 plus class levels. Are we missing anything?

Warblade 8 yea he has a stupidly high LA

[Agent 451]

How did he expect to add half-golem in there then? Are you playing into epic levels, or did he assume that LA -- means you can have a potentially retardedly overpowered template for free :smalltongue:

[Jeraa]

I just remembered he also has the half troll template so he can use that stupid half golem template back to the drawing board again how do we kill this stupid thing? I didn't say it earlier because I didnt know it changed anything

Not necessarily. If you are using Savage Species, there is a Type Pyramid laid out there (page 142).


Usually, the last template applied determines a creature’s type. However, it is possible that some template imposes a creature type that overrides any following templates. Types higher on the pyramid override lower types, even if the lower type is applied afterward. You can apply the half-dragon template to an earth elemental, for instance, and it remains an elemental.

If you are following that, then the Lumis Outsider type overrides the half-trolls giant type, meaning that a half-troll Lumi is still not able to be a half-golem, as it is still an Outsider, not a Giant. The Outsider type is at the top of the pyramid (with Construct and Undead)

[Harry]

How did he expect to add half-golem in there then? Are you playing into epic levels, or did he assume that LA -- means you can have a potentially retardedly overpowered template for free :smalltongue:

Yea its funny but we do allow LA -- As LA 0 But the last time someplayed a half golem In my group the BBEG was a tristalt mailman factotum twice betrayer... So yea it seemed like a good idea at the time:smallredface:

[Hirax]

I'm probably missing something in all those templates, but is there a reason bog standard searing spell or piercing cold area spells couldn't just obliterate all the heads? For instance, incendiary cloud+searing spell? It ignores SR, magic immunity, and fire immunity. Use incantatrix to add empower, maximize, energy admixture (cold), piercing cold, and other things as desired.

[Soranar]

Take a large creature with the swallow whole feature

Eat him

[Lostbutseeking]

As mentioned half-golem isn't a PC template so he can't have that. Consequently a holy word spell of the appropriate alignment at CL 18 or higher will blow him into dust bunnies.

[olentu]

As I said I want to beat him by RAW and by RAI and it makes sense by RAI that it should be immune also as broken as it sounds I allow my pcs to use dm only templates it usually balances out because I optimize the BBEG and his minions but the player challenged me that there is no way for me to kill it by raw and rai with out dm fiat and....... he might be right

The real question however is by RAI does your opponent mean "rules as I think they should be because they make sense in my mind" in which case since he is the one able to make up any old thing he wants you probably can't win since he can make up whatever he wants.

[Agent 451]

Not necessarily. If you are using Savage Species, there is a Type Pyramid laid out there (page 142). If you are following that, then the Lumis Outsider type overrides the half-trolls giant type)

But the half-troll template specifically states:


The creature's type becomes giant, and a half-troll with an outsider as the base creature also gains the extraplanar subtype.

[Harry]

I'm probably missing something in all those templates, but is there a reason bog standard searing spell or piercing cold area spells couldn't just obliterate all the heads? For instance, incendiary cloud+searing spell? It ignores SR, magic immunity, and fire immunity. Use incantatrix to add empower, maximize, energy admixture (cold), piercing cold, and other things as desired.

He dosnt have fire immunity he's immune from damage that tries to cut his head off his neck (which he doesn't have) death spells which lumi are immune to and disintegrate which half golem makes him immune to it and the eating him also won't work due to it not being a death affect cutting his head off or disintegrate and yes I know is not made for players but I already allowed it

[Harry]

The real question however is by RAI does your opponent mean "rules as I think they should be because they make sense in my mind" in which case since he is the one able to make up any old thing he wants you probably can't win since he can make up whatever he wants.

Can't I do the same but on a bigger level?

[Hirax]

I'm looking at the multiheaded and lernaean templates, and I'm not seeing what it is that would prevent this character from dying if you just forcecaged them in an incendiary cloud. The templates are poorly done (like most of that book), but it has to be damaging something.

[Lostbutseeking]

Supernatural holy word bypases the half-golem templates immunity to
magic.

As does Su anything for that matter.

[olentu]

Can't I do the same but on a bigger level?

I don't know so answer me this, by RAI is this build unbeatable.

[Jodah]

Throw it in lava. Non-magical death effect, not a spell of any sort, and quick "painless" and even beats troll regeneration if they want to argue that.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't know so answer me this, by RAI is this build unbeatable.

The best answer is a hole full of quintessence, may not kill it but, it's removed from time forever, which is almost as bad as time travel grandfather stabbing.

[Jeraa]

Throw it in lava. Non-magical death effect, not a spell of any sort, and quick "painless" and even beats troll regeneration if they want to argue that.

That is not a death effect. Its just 20d6 fire damage per round.

[Agent 451]

And fire is needed to actually kill the heads so they do not regenerate.

[Socratov]

ehm, not with the gygax errata (yes they exist somewhere don't know where though), where gygax says that when falling in lava kills you out flat, yes, even when you are immune to fire...

[olentu]

ehm, not with the gygax errata (yes they exist somewhere don't know where though), where gygax says that when falling in lava kills you out flat, yes, even when you are immune to fire...

Do you mean this

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/55269/Lava-Rules!-Fire-and-Brimstone

[Jeraa]

ehm, not with the gygax errata (yes they exist somewhere don't know where though), where gygax says that when falling in lava kills you out flat, yes, even when you are immune to fire...

What? I have no idea what that is, but what does Gygax have to do with 3rd edition?

Edit: Oh, you mean some 3rd party stuff that has no bearing on this conversation?

[Averis Vol]

wanna destroy him? have him come up with a reasonable backstory that explains how a creature like that came to be. did he do it, no? body explodes, we was never born. :smalltongue:

EDIT: why did you allow this in the first place? did you just not look over the character sheet? or did he happen to sneak it by you. on a personal note i can't see wanting to play something like this, it's ridiculous.

[Harry]

Supernatural holy word bypases the half-golem templates immunity to
magic.

As does Su anything for that matter.

Immunity to magic its not the problem the problem is the learnean template making him immune to all damage except death magic aka holy word and [death] spells disintegrate and getting his head cut off the problem is that half golem makes him immune to disintegrate and death effects while lumi makes it so his head can't be cut off all three ways that it can be killed he is immune I am stuck and confused on how to kill this thing:smallfrown:

[Harry]

wanna destroy him? have him come up with a reasonable backstory that explains how a creature like that came to be. did he do it, no? body explodes, we was never born. :smalltongue:

I want to ask but ... I am a little scared how he will answer :smallbiggrin:

[Averis Vol]

I want to ask but ... I am a little scared how he will answer :smallbiggrin:

lol do it, its a perfectly legitimate way to wipe his character from existence, it is a roleplaying game after all.

[olentu]

Immunity to magic is not the problem the problem is the learnean template making him immune to all damage except death magic aka holy word and [death] spells disintegrate and getting his head cut off the problem is that half golem makes him immune to disintegrate and death effects while lumi makes it so his head can't be cut off all three ways that it can be killed he is immune I am stuck and confused on how to kill this thing:smallfrown:

So are you asking for a rules answer here or what.

[Othesemo]

You kill him the same way you kill pun-pun: the DM realizes that it's stupid, and that theoretical optimization is called that for a reason. Then the person makes an actual character.

As is, he can't be killed. Doesn't mean you can't just go with the old flesh-to-stone, stone-to-mud, throw-mud-into-pool-of-water, feed-water-to-pack-of-koalas, greater dispel magic route. Though that should probably only be taken should the player refuse to acknowledge the inappropriateness of using that build as anything other than proof that yes, 3.5 D&D's many books were created without taking consideration as to how they would interact with any of the others.

[Agent 451]

The way I see it is that he is vulnerable to fire, both on the troll side, and the lernaean. Fire is needed to completely destroy the stump of his head/neck so that it doesn't regenerate. Lumi are immune to vorpal decapitation, strangulation and suffocation. It doesn't say anything about them being immune to having their faces melted off. Sure he has no visible neck, but Lumi have "an unseen force" that holds and prevents others from moving their head, thus something is holding it in place. That something likely will cease to function once the head and normal area of neck attachment have been liquefied due to extreme lavaness.

...wait, can creatures without a con score even regenerate?

[Harry]

The way I see it is that he is vulnerable to fire, both on the troll side, and the lernaean. Fire is needed to completely destroy the stump of his head/neck so that it doesn't regenerate. Lumi are immune to vorpal decapitation, strangulation and suffocation. It doesn't say anything about them being immune to having their faces melted off. Sure he has no visible neck, but Lumi have "an unseen force" that holds and prevents others from moving their head, thus something is holding it in place. That something likely will cease to function once the head and normal area of neck attachment have been liquefied due to extreme lavaness.

...wait, can creatures without a con score even regenerate?

Iirc half golems Make a save if they pass they keep there con score

[Mikeavelli]

Alright, here ya go.

Assassin's Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm). Despite the name, it's not a death effect, and depends only on a successful sneak attack.

Combine this with a Greater Demolition Crystal from the MIC which allows you to inflict sneak attack damage on constructs, negating the Half-golem immunities.

Lernean template is explicitly vulnerable to this sort of thing.

DEATH!

[Harry]

So are you asking for a rules answer here or what.
To be honest I really don't know I am looking for a in game raw and Rai way of killing him and there seems to be none and flesh to stone is spell resistance: yes so that does not work either

[Harry]

Alright, here ya go.

Assassin's Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm). Despite the name, it's not a death effect, and depends only on a successful sneak attack.

Combine this with a Greater Demolition Crystal from the MIC which allows you to inflict sneak attack damage on constructs, negating the Half-golem immunities.

Lernean template is explicitly vulnerable to this sort of thing.

DEATH!

This... Could work YAY:smallbiggrin:

[Jeraa]

This... Could work YAY:smallbiggrin:

*cough*

I did suggest that in the 3rd post of this thread... Well, the assassins Death Attack part, at least.

[Agent 451]

Iirc half golems Make a save if they pass they keep there con score

That Will save is what makes them a half-golem. If you pass you get a +4 to Con, but if you fail you lose the Con score as you become a construct.

Edit: What kind of golem is he based off of, he also gets damage reduction based on the type of golem.

If it's based off of an Iron Golem, he'd be vulnerable to rusting...

[Harry]

*cough*

I did suggest that in the 3rd post of this thread... Well, the assassins Death Attack part, at least.

Sorry I just though that half golems were completely immune to sneak attack which death attack is based on sorry again :smallredface:

[Socratov]

Do you mean this

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/55269/Lava-Rules!-Fire-and-Brimstone

yes that one. It basically says lava is end to character...

[Skyrunner]

LA -- is so different from LA 0 though.

[Harry]

That Will save is what makes them a half-golem. If you pass you get a +4 to Con, but if you fail you lose the Con score as you become a construct.

Edit: What kind of golem is he based off of, he also gets damage reduction based on the type of golem.

If it's based off of an Iron Golem, he'd be vulnerable to rusting...

Iirc hes a half clay golem which gets him immunity to slashing and piercing wait if he is immune to slashing/piercing and bludgeoning then theres no way to sneak attack it so death attack doesn't work RAAAAAAA:smallfurious: this thing keeps on getting stronger

[Taffimai]

Alright, so don't kill him. Trap him in a forcecage, then construct a permanent prison around him with wall of force and permanency.

Also, what was the reason he couldn't be drowned/starved again?

[Alienist]

Or you could TURN HIM TO STONE ... just sayin'

[DoctorGlock]

you cannot decapitate him by your own rules, but by RAI, destruction of the head should accomplish the same effect. Turn him to stone, then mountain hammer.

SU transform on any monster with a SLA that does what you want

With LA of at least 12 and 8 warblade then you have no problem tossing a balor at them. SU its blasphemy and laugh when the guy gets dusted.

Use the death attack with a blunt weapon if he is immune to normal weapons

I think UA has rules for called shots, chuck metamagiced true trike orbs of fire at his face until it melts and dribbles down his chest cavity.

Render him helpless, then coup de grace him.

Open a gate to the plane of fire, kick him in.

Do the above with another one to the sun, nuke the whole world. Collateral damage, sure, but the player goes away.

He has regeneration? Trollbane weapons.

Go with the various eternal prison options. He's one stone shape away from that. Stasis the stone. It's now indestructible. Chuck it into space. It's now someone else's problem.

[The Winter King]

Iirc hes a half clay golem which gets him immunity to slashing and piercing wait if he is immune to slashing/piercing and bludgeoning then theres no way to sneak attack it so death attack doesn't work RAAAAAAA:smallfurious: this thing keeps on getting stronger

First where is the immunity to bludgeoning damage coming from?
Second, why would it matter? Throw a weapon enchantment on it that deals damage (Force, Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Bane, Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, Anarchic, Collision, viscious, ect...) and go to town.
Drop him from high up repeatedly, Raw = falling damage is not bludgeoning.
Get an adamantine bludgeoning weapon.
Repeatedly cast move earth/disintegrate/earthquake on him.

Deal more than 10 damage in a single hit at ECL 20. DR 10 is hardly an in surmountable number. Also the fool, he is ECL 20 with only eight levels. Any level appropriate challenge is just going to ignore him.

[Harry]

First where is the immunity to bludgeoning damage coming from?
Second, why would it matter? Throw a weapon enchantment on it that deals damage (Force, Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Bane, Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, Anarchic, Collision, viscious, ect...) and go to town.
Drop him from high up repeatedly, Raw = falling damage is not bludgeoning.
Get an adamantine bludgeoning weapon.
Repeatedly cast move earth/disintegrate/earthquake on him.

Deal more than 10 damage in a single hit at ECL 20. DR 10 is hardly an in surmountable number. Also the fool, he is ECL 20 with only eight levels. Any level appropriate challenge is just going to ignore him.

the multi headed and learnean template makes him immune to all physical attacks except slashing/piercing damage to the neck lumi and half golem makes him immune to that and death effects and death spells like the holy word/word of chaos
and any spell that is spell resistance: yes like flesh to stone

[Harry]

Alright, so don't kill him. Trap him in a forcecage, then construct a permanent prison around him with wall of force and permanency.

Also, what was the reason he couldn't be drowned/starved again?
If I trap him he'll still be alive besides iron heart surge and Constructs Don't breathe

[DoctorGlock]

the multi headed and learnean template makes him immune to all physical attacks except slashing/piercing damage to the neck lumi and half golem makes him immune to that and death effects and death spells like the holy word/word of chaos
and any spell that is spell resistance: yes like flesh to stone

Holy word/Blasphemy/whatever are not death effects. They are an untyped destroy that work on undead and constructs.

Also, if he is ruing the game, then eternal prison does not care if he lives. He is unable to exert influence. Dont forget the quintessence though.

[Harry]

Holy word/Blasphemy/whatever are not death effects. They are an untyped destroy that work on undead and constructs.

Also, if he is ruing the game, then eternal prison does not care if he lives. He is unable to exert influence. Dont forget the quintessence though.

Yes but they Death magic which lumi are immune to and he could jus iron heart surge the forcecage prison

[Mari01]

If I trap him he'll still be alive besides iron heart surge and Constructs Don't breathe

You can't IHS your way out of a force cage.

[DoctorGlock]

Yes but they Death magic which lumi are immune to and he could jus iron heart surge the forcecage prison

Death magic is anything with the death or negative descriptor. The word line are not death effects by any stretch of the imagination.

Alternately take SU transform, put it on a dealkyr and polymorph any object him into a pumpkin. Then get the hammer.

As to IHS, you can only initiate if you can move, if he is encased in stone, stasis and quintessence, he cannot move to initiate.

[ericgrau]

So very high ECL templates & race and low dex? Otiluke's resilient sphere him and walk away unless he rolls a nat 20. Save your money and don't bother with force cage.

[Caedes]

Seems to me you have three ways out of this.

The first is to imprison him forever using one of the ingenious methods listed in this thread. However, that does not kill him and you still lose.


The second: Tell him you were not correct in allowing him the Half Golem template. After all, it is not a PC template. So, tell him. " Hey I know I ok'd this, but Raw is Raw and you are not allowed to play this char. I can though so... Thank you for the next BBEG." *Yoink*


The Third: Concede. Say, "you are right. I cannot kill that. Well done. You killed the dragon and won the game. Now please roll up a new char as this one has won the game and no longer has a role to fulfill in this plane or reality."



All in all. You have allowed an illegal PC into your game. And the more you try to kill him outright in the game is going to be more frustration for you and more joy to him. Which is fine if it is a 1 on 1 game session. But I assume you have other players. This is going to stop being fun for them in short order I would imagine.

[Harry]

Seems to me you have three ways out of this.

The first is to imprison him forever using one of the ingenious methods listed in this thread. However, that does not kill him and you still lose.


The second: Tell him you were not correct in allowing him the Half Golem template. After all, it is not a PC template. So, tell him. " Hey I know I ok'd this, but Raw is Raw and you are not allowed to play this char. I can though so... Thank you for the next BBEG." *Yoink*


The Third: Concede. Say, "you are right. I cannot kill that. Well done. You killed the dragon and won the game. Now please roll up a new char as this one has won the game and no longer has a role to fulfill in this plane or reality."



All in all. You have allowed an illegal PC into your game. And the more you try to kill him outright in the game is going to be more frustration for you and more joy to him. Which is fine if it is a 1 on 1 game session. But I assume you have other players. This is going to stop being fun for them in short order I would imagine.
I think I'll just admit that I lost and tell him to roll a new char and he may or may not fight it as the BBEG but gestalted with wizard :smallamused:

[BRC]

I think I'll just admit that I lost and tell him to roll a new char and he may or may not fight it as the BBEG but gestalted with wizard :smallamused:

Well, the problem is you're trying to fight Not-RAW with RAW. As has been mentioned, he can't apply Half-Golem to an Outsider, and he can't use Half-Golem as a PC template anyway. And as has been mentioned many, many times, even if he can't Die, he CAN be trapped and removed from play in a wide variety of ways.

If this is a thought experiment to create a specifically unkillable character, then yes, he's won (by using a Houserule), If it's an actual character, you can remove him from play easily enough, which is effectively the same.

[Harry]

Well, the problem is you're trying to fight Not-RAW with RAW. As has been mentioned, he can't apply Half-Golem to an Outsider, and he can't use Half-Golem as a PC template anyway. And as has been mentioned many, many times, even if he can't Die, he CAN be trapped and removed from play in a wide variety of ways.

If this is a thought experiment to create a specifically unkillable character, then yes, he's won (by using a Houserule), If it's an actual character, you can remove him from play easily enough, which is effectively the same.

Yes I realize that there's no way to kill him exempt me saying that he can't play it and yes on of my player wanted to play it and we had a bet that I couldnt beat it well he won but later in the campaign he has to fight a army of these... It will help:smallbiggrin:

[Dimers]

Iirc hes a half clay golem which gets him immunity to slashing and piercing wait if he is immune to slashing/piercing and bludgeoning then theres no way to sneak attack it so death attack doesn't work RAAAAAAA:smallfurious: this thing keeps on getting stronger

There are plenty of "melee weapons" that the assassin can use that don't deal slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, such as the weapons generated by spells like flame blade. Such things certainly allow sneak attack (supported explicitly in Complete Arcane), and almost all are SR:No so being half-golem doesn't matter. These are not physical attacks, and some of them even bypass trollish regeneration. If there's still a problem with this line of reasoning, please take us through it step by step.

EDIT: And lemme tell ya, an assassin with access to a Supernatural Searing Spell flame blade is a hell of a lot more likely than the existence of a half-troll half-golem Lernean lumi.

[Lostbutseeking]

There are plenty of "melee weapons" that the assassin can use that don't deal slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, such as the weapons generated by spells like flame blade. Such things certainly allow sneak attack (supported explicitly in Complete Arcane), and almost all are SR:No so being half-golem doesn't matter. These are not physical attacks, and some of them even bypass trollish regeneration. If there's still a problem with this line of reasoning, please take us through it step by step.

EDIT: And lemme tell ya, an assassin with access to a Supernatural Searing Spell flame blade is a hell of a lot more likely than the existence of a half-troll half-golem Lernean lumi.

May as well make it a transdimensional spell while you are at it

[Morbis Meh]

In what way is this thing immune to force damage? If not then simply use an orb of force it's an instaneous conjuration so SR does not apply therefore it is not immune magically, it has Bo saving throw thus you only have to make a ranged touch attack which should be ridiculously easy and with some incantrix shenanigans you should be able to murderize its HP in a couple of rounds.

[Agent 451]

Also the fool, he is ECL 20 with only eight levels. Any level appropriate challenge is just going to ignore him.

Actually, he should only have six levels.

Edit: Don't forget abut spheres of annihilation!


Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

[DoctorGlock]

Edit: Don't forget abut spheres of annihilation!

How do you transport them? I suppose you can move them through a gate but just not open a gate on them. There has to be a more efficient way than burning 9th level spells on transport though.

[Hirax]

You continue to ignore making spells supernatural so they bypass magic immunity. I believe the first that was pointed out was baleful polymorph. So take 10 levels of dweomerkeeper and polymorph him into whatever you want.

[Agent 451]

How do you transport them?

Magic!

To be honest, I didn't actually think about transporting it. I suppose you could Wish for it, but don't quote me on that, my knowledge of Wish mechanics is pretty sparse.

You could build an adventure around the sphere, or just have a BBEG who is in possession of it. As long as your BBEG can outlast a dude with six class levels you should be good to go.

[Taffimai]

You could create a unique epic spell based on the Transport Seed. It specifically states that it can be used to transport unwilling creatures (for a higher spellcraft DC), and that only objects worn or carried by them receive saving throws or spell resistance. He is susceptible. Now to find a lethal destination.

Edit: into a sphere of annihilation, apparently :smallbiggrin:

[Toofey]

I Wish this guy had a neck.

Snicker-Snack.

[Brock Samson]

So when I'm hearing is: Supernatural Baleful Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object
Assassin Death Attack with a Flame Blade/Orb of Fire
Forcecage and incendiary cloud
Wish
Miracle
Alter Reality

[Hirax]

Supernatural spell from dweomerkeeper isn't really limited to polymorphing. You could use necrotic cyst+necrotic termination or eruption to kill it also, for instance. Or necrotic tumor to permanently control it.

[DGB]

I'm curious: can this guy even deal any amount of damage?
I mean he has 8 lvls of warblade and nothing much else except a "perfect defense" which still doesn't stop spells which don't effectivly harm him but rather hinder him..?

I mean, does he even have access to flight?

[FearlessGnome]

Dweomerkeeper + Necrotic Termination is what I would recommend as well. Really, Dweomerkeeper will let you ignore magic immunity, and NT is about as nasty a way to go as D&D offers.

Aestetically, at least. I'm sure you can find ways more painful or humilating, but for sheer "Aaah!!!" factor, NT wins.

Also, Ice Assassin. Won't kill him, but it will give him clones of himself to fight that he won't be able to defeat with only 8 real levels.

Main point though: Magic immunity is not an issue. Dweomerkeeper lets you ignore SR for ANY spell.

[Harry]

Supernatural spell from dweomerkeeper isn't really limited to polymorphing. You could use necrotic cyst+necrotic termination or eruption to kill it also, for instance. Or necrotic tumor to permanently control it.

It seems that there are ways for it to be kill it GREAT!!!:smallsmile: good thing I didn't tell the player I lost yet here comes the gestalt assassin dweomerkeepers!:smallbiggrin:

[AslanCross]

Why is everyone giving up already? O_o This isn't an airtight unkillable monster. I cannot read. apparently you won already.


Yes but they Death magic which lumi are immune to and he could jus iron heart surge the forcecage prison

No, Holy Word and the other Word spells aren't death spells. See the difference:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm

Finger of Death has the [Death] Descriptor. By RAW, THAT is a death spell. Holy word has no such descriptors. It would work. And due to his massive LA, it's easy enough for a high-enough level caster to blow him away.
However, Holy Word IS "Spell Resistance:Yes", which Half Golem makes him immune to.

One thing we're missing, on the other hand, is that the Half-Golem was updated for 3.5. The original wording of Magic Immunity as per MM2:


Magic Immunity: Half-Golems completely resist all magicla and supernatural effects, except as noted in the appropriate golem descriptions.

However, the 3.5 update (for MM2) for Magic Immunity says:

Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

In other words, (Su) abilities (such a Dragon breath weapons) can still damage it. The Lernean template causes the damage to be applied to the heads, which can't be that many---Medium size caps him at a second head. 2 additional HD isn't much. Since the template says that the damage that successful spells deal is applied to the heads instead (not RAW that it will work on dragon breath), this implies (okay, this is no longer RAW) that the heads can also be destroyed by any damage.


But yeah, the sphere of annihilation still kills it by RAW. So I think you still win.

Sphere of Annihilation
A sphere of annihilation is a globe of absolute blackness, a ball of nothingness 2 feet in diameter. The object is actually a hole in the continuity of the multiverse. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.


Wait, can't this be Orb of Fired to death? Or dumped in a vat of lava?

EDIT: Like the Sphere of Annihilation, an umbral blot's attack should kill this thing. It's basically an (Ex) disintegrate on a stick. So yes, you still win.

[Zubrowka74]

Magic!

To be honest, I didn't actually think about transporting it. I suppose you could Wish for it, but don't quote me on that, my knowledge of Wish mechanics is pretty sparse.

You could build an adventure around the sphere, or just have a BBEG who is in possession of it. As long as your BBEG can outlast a dude with six class levels you should be good to go.

Actually, there's an item called "Amulet of the Sphere" or such.

[toapat]

anything transported to the prime elemental planes of Positive or Negative or the Demi elemental planes of Magma or Radiance, is slain immediately, without save, as there is no physiology within the multiverse able to withstand those planes.

[Jeraa]

anything transported to the prime elemental planes of Positive or Negative or the Demi elemental planes of Magma or Radiance, is slain immediately, without save, as there is no physiology within the multiverse able to withstand those planes.

Survival is possible on the Positive and Negative energy planes. The negative Energy plane deals either 1d6 negative energy damage or 1 negative level per round (with a Fortitude save to avoid it). On the positive energy plane, you gain fast healing that is capable of giving you more hit points per normal. However, every round you have more then your maximum hit points, there is a chance you can die (but its only a DC 20 Fortitude save).

Both planes are very survivable by the time you are able to plane hop.

[DoctorGlock]

Actually, there's an item called "Amulet of the Sphere" or such.

lets you move it at a rate of maybe 30' per round. we need to drag this baby across planes and worlds.

wish and gate. accept no substitutes.

[Zubrowka74]

lets you move it at a rate of maybe 30' per round. we need to drag this baby across planes and worlds.

wish and gate. accept no substitutes.

Once you've gated it, you still need control over it.

[Callista]

Petrify, then Sphere of Annihilation.

[DoctorGlock]

Once you've gated it, you still need control over it.

the amulet does help there but iirc it's actually unnecessary, concentration checks will pull it off all the same (but more slowly)

Then again, i suppose you only need to bring him to the sphere. He charges, you celerity, time stop, gate

time resumes, he goes through gate, hits sphere

[candycorn]

Getting Holy Word as an Su ability would do it.

[Harry]

anything transported to the prime elemental planes of Positive or Negative or the Demi elemental planes of Magma or Radiance, is slain immediately, without save, as there is no physiology within the multiverse able to withstand those planes.

This match is over but iirc The lumi is immune to death from positive and negative energy remember the body of light (su)

[Voyager_I]

Frankly, this character will be quite problematic...just not in the way he thinks. Even with all this rule abuse and interpreting LA -- as LA 0 (when they are about as far away from being the same thing as possible), at the end of the day, you're still talking about a Level 20 martial character with 10 HD and 4th level Maneuvers. Yeah, it's hard for him to die to things not designed specifically to kill him, but good luck actually doing anything in a level-appropriate encounter.

Full Breakdown:

+2 LA (Lumi)
+2 LA (Multiheaded, one additional head)
+2 LA (Learnean)
+4 LA (Half Troll)
+10 LA

...and then...

4 Outsider HD (2 from Lumi, 2 from additional head)
6 Levels of Warblade

So, all told, that's a full attack at a base of +10/+10/+5/+5, assuming he decides to make use of his Superior TWF, and an Initiator Level of 8 if we're nice and let him count his racial HD as class levels. As a level 20 character.

I wouldn't let him play this character, not because he'll break the game, but because he won't actually contribute anything to fights and is liable to get the rest of the party killed by virtue of being about as useful as a Monk built with 20-point buy.