Are there any classes that have...[3.5]

[blackmage]

Looking through Core, there is one class with a d12 hit die (Barbarian), one class with 8 skill points per level (Rogue), and one class with all three good saves (Monk). I am curious, are there any other classes that have any of those traits?

[Yora]

Knights and Warblades have d20 hit points.

About 8 skill points, I am not sure, but I strongly suspect so.

[DoctorGlock]

All good saves is the purview of favored soul as well

[sonofzeal]

Scouts have 8+int skills. Factotums don't, but are worth noting since they have all skills as class skills.

[Morph Bark]

Rogues and Scouts (Complete Adventurer) are the only ones with 8+Int skill points. The only PrCs with 8+Int skill points are the Exemplar (Complete Adventurer) and Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel), that I know of.

Monks and Favoured Souls (Complete Divine/Miniature Handbook) are the only ones with all good saves. The only PrCs with all good saves tend to be Monk PrCs, too.

Barbarians, Warblades (Tome of Battle) and Knights (Player's Handbook II) are the only ones with d12 HD. The only PrCs with d12 HD are usually Barbarian PrCs, too.

[blackmage]

Awesome, thank you all.

[JadePhoenix]

Knights and Warblades have d20 hit points.

Wait... what?!

[Frog Dragon]

Knights and Warblades have d20 hit points..
No, that's Lightning Warrior. :smalltongue:

[DoctorGlock]

No, that's Lightning Warrior. :smalltongue:

But they sacrifice power for flavor.:smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

There's also racial hit dice. Dragons get d12, and outsiders get 8 skill points, and both get all good saves and full BAB. Unfortunately, dragons and outsiders both usually have hefty LA, if they're playable at all.

And I think there are two or three other PrCs that get 8 skill points, besides Uncanny Trickster and Exemplar. They're all pretty boring, though, just slightly-different rogues.

Also worth mentioning is that the changeling rogue racial substitution levels get 10 skill points.

[eggs]

Since we're basically dredging the bottom now:

Tiefling Paragons have all good saves.

There are a couple Savage species outsiders that effectively have all good saves and 8+Int skills for the first few levels (when they start running into the HD-less levels, that collapses, but for short low-level campaigns...)

The Necropolitan template rerolls all HD (including class-based HD) as d12s, but costs the Con bonus.

Stacking Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer variants is way sketchy (they lose the same feature, but Stalwart is worded in a way that doesn't rule out the overlap), but if you greenlight it, it gets d8+2 HD, which averages the same 6.5 HP/level as the Barbarian.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As for base classes, I think we've hit everything. However, the Changeling Rogue substitution levels give 10 skill points per level.

[Rubik]

RAW swordsages get (6+Int)x6 skill points at their first level. It's a typo, but that's what's written in there.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Waroforged fighter Substitution levels (RoE) also get a d12 for three levels for base classes, and the Dragon Disciple and Dwarven Defender both get d12s too.

[deuxhero]

And thanks to ToB sharing errata with... one of the complete books (forget which one), it will never be fixed.

[FMArthur]

ToB doesn't share errata with anything; they each got their own separate errata file. ToB's errata just cuts off mid-sentence and the rest is text from Complete Mage's pasted right over it for no discernable reason. That's not sharing at all!

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a LOT of classes all over D&D 3.5e. What exactly do you want to accomplish? What books do you have access to?

And Knights and Warblades have D12 hit points, fyi...

[Pilo]

Elf ranger substitution level have 8+int skill points too.

[Hazzardevil]

Brilliant gameologists wrote their own Tome of Battle Errata, so taking a look at that would be useful.

[Malimar]

According to HeroForge's database (so a few of these may be from setting-specific or otherwise esoteric books, and it might be missing a couple books):

d12 HD:
Base classes: Barbarian, Knight, Warblade, Half-Dragon Paragon, Dragon, Undead
PrCs: Dragon Disciple, Dwarven Defender, Bear Warrior, Eye of Gruumsh, Frenzied Berserker, Deepwarden Frostrager, Corrupt Avenger, Bloodclaw Master, Bloodstorm Blade, War Hulk, DoomLord, Battlerager, Orc Warlord, Black Blood Cultist, Thayan Gladiator, Hordebreaker, Warforged Juggernaut, Bloodscaled Fury, Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, Ephemeral Exemplar, Lurking Terror, Master Vampire, Tomb Warden, Lifedrinker, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Defender of Sealtiel, Risen Martyr

8+ skill points per level:
Base Classes: Rogue, Scout, Outsider
PrCs: Dungeon Delver, Exemplar, Nightsong Infiltrator, Spymaster, Uncanny Trickster, Scorpion Heritor, Night Mask Deathbringer, Shade Hunter, Gatecrasher, Detective, Crypt Raider

All good saves:
Base Classes: Monk, Favored Soul, Tiefling Paragon, certain Animal, Dragon, Outsider
PrCs: Tattooed Monk, Sanctified One, Disciple of the Eye, Shadow Sun Ninja, Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess, Dragonmark Heir, Heir of Siberys, Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, Hidecarved Dragon, Disciple of Dispater, Disciple of Mephistopheles, Lifedrinker, Soul Eater, Thrall Of Juiblex, Apostle of Peace, Initiate of Pistis Sophia, Prophet of Erathaol, Beast-Hunter, Demon-Hunter, Ghost-Hunter, Vampire-Hunter, Witch-Hunter, Fiend of Blasphemy, Fiend of Corruption, Fiend of Possession

[Morph Bark]

Beast-Hunter, Demon-Hunter, Ghost-Hunter, Vampire-Hunter, Witch-Hunter

Could anyone tell me where these are from? (The Witch-Hunter is not the Witch Hunter, as in the PrC from OA, as that one only has good Fort and Will.)

[Rejusu]

Also worth mentioning is that the changeling rogue racial substitution levels get 10 skill points.

Yup, which is a whopping 40 skill points before you even add your int bonus into the mix. The first changeling rogue sub level is pretty much mandatory for Factotums unless you have a pressing need to play a different race. Plus you trade Trapfinding for the incredibly awesome Social intuition ability and then get Trapfinding back with your first level of Factotum anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yup, which is a whopping 40 skill points before you even add your int bonus into the mix. The first changeling rogue sub level is pretty much mandatory for Factotums unless you have a pressing need to play a different race. Plus you trade Trapfinding for the incredibly awesome Social intuition ability and then get Trapfinding back with your first level of Factotum anyway.

Eh. A level 1 human factotum with 18 int and able learner gets 44 skill points to spend, and all skills are always class skills forever more, no matter what classes they level up in.

[Rejusu]

Eh. A level 1 human factotum with 18 int and able learner gets 44 skill points to spend, and all skills are always class skills forever more, no matter what classes they level up in.

A level 1 Changeling Rogue with 18 Int gets 56 skill points to spend and since you're going to be taking your levels in Factotum anyway the benefit of Able Learner is moot and should only be taken if you want to go Chameleon later on. Plus you get a +2 bonus to Bluff, Sense Motive, and Intimidate, a +10 to disguise through shape change, and the ability to take 10 on nearly all social skills even when you wouldn't normally be able to.

Yes the Factotum potentially makes a better 1-level dip if you plan to level up as something else, but if you actually plan to level up as a Factotum (and really why would you want all skills as class skills if you weren't going to?) then a 1-level dip for the Chameleon Rogue sub level is awesome.

[sonofzeal]

A level 1 Changeling Rogue with 18 Int gets 56 skill points to spend and since you're going to be taking your levels in Factotum anyway the benefit of Able Learner is moot and should only be taken if you want to go Chameleon later on. Plus you get a +2 bonus to Bluff, Sense Motive, and Intimidate, a +10 to disguise through shape change, and the ability to take 10 on nearly all social skills even when you wouldn't normally be able to.

Yes the Factotum potentially makes a better 1-level dip if you plan to level up as something else, but if you actually plan to level up as a Factotum (and really why would you want all skills as class skills if you weren't going to?) then a 1-level dip for the Chameleon Rogue sub level is awesome.
It always seems a shame to waste the point of BAB though, when you're going for a class that's already 3/4 BAB. I mean, you're up to 9th level before you're more than a single point ahead of Wizards. And at 10th the Wizard gains a point and you don't.

[FMArthur]

It's cool to be an incredible master of disguise and intrigue with the taking 10 bit, but I probably wouldn't go for it unless a particular game's social aspect is known to be very challenging because it isn't exactly hard to be good at it with just Factotum. And 16 extra skill points doesn't feel quite awesome enough to spend levels on, especially not if you weren't already going to play a changeling. Other Factotum races are likely to be narrowing that 1st-level gap to 12 and getting 1 more skill point every level afterward from being human or a +Int race. And anyone can buy a Hat of Disguise for a pittance.

[FearlessGnome]

Brilliant gameologists wrote their own Tome of Battle Errata, so taking a look at that would be useful.Unfortunately, while much of their homebrew errata makes sense, some of it is stupid in the head. They solved the Iron Heart Surge ambiguity by making it explicitly insanely overpowered. Epic spell affecting an entire plane? Warblade5 to the rescue!

[blackmage]

There are a LOT of classes all over D&D 3.5e. What exactly do you want to accomplish? What books do you have access to?

More of a thought exercise and research than anything. Analyzing the various extremes of 3.5 classes (spreadsheets yay!). My personal book collection and knowledge isn't much wider than Core + Completes, so I went to the experts. :smallsmile:

[Rejusu]

It always seems a shame to waste the point of BAB though, when you're going for a class that's already 3/4 BAB. I mean, you're up to 9th level before you're more than a single point ahead of Wizards. And at 10th the Wizard gains a point and you don't.

Well I'd always insist on using fractional BAB when multi-classing anything that doesn't have full BAB. It's just a bit stupid to go from +0 to +0. Losing BAB for multi-classing is just incredibly dumb rules. Especially when full BAB classes aren't affected by it. Why should a character with 2 levels in 2 different 3/4 BAB classes have +0 BAB while a character with 2 levels in 2 different full BAB classes has +2 BAB?


It's cool to be an incredible master of disguise and intrigue with the taking 10 bit, but I probably wouldn't go for it unless a particular game's social aspect is known to be very challenging because it isn't exactly hard to be good at it with just Factotum. And 16 extra skill points doesn't feel quite awesome enough to spend levels on, especially not if you weren't already going to play a changeling. Other Factotum races are likely to be narrowing that 1st-level gap to 12 and getting 1 more skill point every level afterward from being human or a +Int race. And anyone can buy a Hat of Disguise for a pittance.

True, but for a one level dip you can be REAL good at it. Also a hat of disguise isn't that cheap (1800GP), so you wouldn't normally have one until later levels where as shape change can be used from level one. Plus, shape change and hat of disguise STACK. Shape change is +10 circumstance and a hat is +10 UNTYPED. That's +20 to disguise alone. Once you add in your Factotum bonuses, skill ranks, cha modifer, synergy bonus it should easily hit the 30-40 mark. Which means almost perfect impersonation is available to you.

Also shape change is arguably better as last I checked if you're using a hat and someone shakes your hand or otherwise comes in contact with you they get a will save to recognise it as an illusion.

[Malimar]

Could anyone tell me where these are from? (The Witch-Hunter is not the Witch Hunter, as in the PrC from OA, as that one only has good Fort and Will.)

I probably should have done it properly the first time, but I was sleepy.

d12 hit die:
Barbarian
– Base Classes Players Handbook II –
Knight
– Base Classes Tome of Battle –
Warblade
– Racial Paragon Classes Unearthed Arcana –
Half-Dragon Paragon
– Prestige Classes DMG –
Dragon Disciple
Dwarven Defender
– Prestige Classes Complete Warrior –
Bear Warrior
Eye of Gruumsh
Frenzied Berserker
– Prestige Classes Races of Stone –
Deepwarden
– Prestige Classes Frostburn –
Frostrager
– Prestige Classes Heroes of Horror –
Corrupt Avenger
– Prestige Classes Tome of Battle –
Bloodclaw Master
Bloodstorm Blade
– Prestige Classes Miniatures Handbook –
War Hulk
– Prestige Classes Planar Handbook –
DoomLord
– Prestige Classes Races of Faerun –
Battlerager
Orc Warlord
– Prestige Classes Champions of Ruin –
Black Blood Cultist
Thayan Gladiator
– Prestige Classes Silver Marches –
Hordebreaker
– Prestige Classes Eberron Campaign Setting –
Warforged Juggernaut
– Prestige Classes Draconomicon –
Bloodscaled Fury
Dragon Ascendant
Elemental Master
– Undead Prestige Classes Libris Mortis –
Ephemeral Exemplar
Lurking Terror
Master Vampire
Tomb Warden
– Prestige Classes Book of Vile Darkness –
Lifedrinker
– Prestige Classes Book of Exalted Deeds –
Champion of Gwynharwyf
Defender of Sealtiel
Risen Martyr

8 skill points:

Rogue
– Base Classes Complete Adventurer –
Scout
– Prestige Classes Complete Adventurer –
Dungeon Delver
Exemplar
Nightsong Infiltrator
Spymaster
– Prestige Classes Complete Scoundrel –
Uncanny Trickster
– Prestige Classes Sandstorm –
Scorpion Heritor
– Prestige Classes Champions of Ruin –
Night Mask Deathbringer
Shade Hunter
– Prestige Classes Manual of the Planes –
Gatecrasher
– Prestige Classes Heroes of Light –
Detective
– Prestige Classes Van Richten's Arsenal Vol. 1. –
Crypt Raider


all good saves:

Monk
– Base Classes Complete Divine –
Favored Soul
– Racial Paragon Classes Unearthed Arcana –
Tiefling Paragon
– Prestige Classes Complete Warrior –
Tattooed Monk
– Prestige Classes Complete Champion –
Sanctified One
– Prestige Classes Races of the Dragon –
Disciple of the Eye
– Prestige Classes Tome of Battle –
Shadow Sun Ninja
– Prestige Classes Underdark –
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess
– Prestige Classes Eberron Campaign Setting –
Dragonmark Heir
Heir of Siberys
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries
Dragon Ascendant
Elemental Master
Hidecarved Dragon
– Prestige Classes Book of Vile Darkness –
Disciple of Dispater
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Lifedrinker
Soul Eater
Thrall Of Juiblex
– Prestige Classes Book of Exalted Deeds –
Apostle of Peace
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Prophet of Erathaol
– Prestige Classes Ravenloft Players Handbook –
Beast-Hunter
Demon-Hunter
Ghost-Hunter
Vampire-Hunter
Witch-Hunter
– Prestige Classes Fiend Folio –
Fiend of Blasphemy
Fiend of Corruption
Fiend of Possession


For the curious, so you don't have to go through the lists manually: Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, Lifedrinker, and Dragon have d12HD and all good saves. Only Outsider has 8 skillpoints and all good saves. Nothing has 8 skill points and d12HD (which obviously means that nothing has all three qualities).

I recall, once upon a time, somebody mentioning an idea for a homebrew class which basically had d12HD, 8 skillpoints and all skills as class skills, all good saves, and no class features whatsoever. It's an intriguing, but probably like tier 4-5, idea.

[ericgrau]

Dragon and outsider racial HD are pretty beefy. Dragon gets d12 HD and 6+int skill points, outsider gets d8 HD and 8+int skill points. Both get full BAB and 3 good saves. They're the only racial HD that I might consider over class levels rather than saying "great, more lost ECL on top of the LA". At least compared to core classes.

[Malimar]

I don't suppose there are any rules anywhere that allow for taking RHD in place of class levels when you level up? E.g., if you're a dragonwrought kobold or tiefling or aasimar and want a little polish on your HP and BAB and skill points and saves. I can't think of many situations where it would be optimized, but I can think of some.

[Rejusu]

For the curious, so you don't have to go through the lists manually: Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, Lifedrinker, and Dragon have d12HD and all good saves. Only Outsider has 8 skillpoints and all good saves. Nothing has 8 skill points and all good saves (which obviously means that nothing has all three qualities).

Couldn't you be an undead outsider? That'd give you the D12 hit die, though admittedly you do lose your con bonus.

[Red_Dog]

I don't suppose there are any rules anywhere that allow for taking RHD in place of class levels when you level up? E.g., if you're a dragonwrought kobold or tiefling or aasimar and want a little polish on your HP and BAB and skill points and saves. I can't think of many situations where it would be optimized, but I can think of some.

I think they should have made Half-Dragon Paragon and Tiefling paragon have "dragon & outsider HD" [fullBAB, d12/d8HP, 8/6+int skills, monk saves] in addition to those minor class percs they get essentially making them more in touch with there draconic & extra-planar roots.

This way the classes would be playable or at least flavorful.

P.S. also, that Half-dragon gained a normal dragon breath, because 3 levels of a class are worse than ONE feat out of RotD.

[Malimar]

Couldn't you be an undead outsider? That'd give you the D12 hit die, though admittedly you do lose your con bonus.

Are there any undead templates that say they can be applied to outsiders? I don't know of any.

[Chronos]

Nothing has 8 skill points and all good saves (which obviously means that nothing has all three qualities).This should say "8 skill points and d12 HD". Though dragons, with 6 skill points, come pretty close.

[Rejusu]

Are there any undead templates that say they can be applied to outsiders? I don't know of any.

It's either that or start out as an undead and become an outsider. I don't think they're mutually exclusive types though. After simply not being native to the material plane makes you an outsider.

[Malimar]

It's either that or start out as an undead and become an outsider. I don't think they're mutually exclusive types though. After simply not being native to the material plane makes you an outsider.

Not being native to the Material Plane just gives you the [Extraplanar] subtype (whenever you're on the Material Plane, or any other plane to which you are not native). Outsider is something more specific.

Just off the top of my head: Githzerai and Githyanki are Humanoids, elementals are Elementals, a lot of naturally ethereal things (e.g. Ethereal Marauders) are Magical Beasts, I think there are a number of [Extraplanar] Constructs, and I'm pretty sure a bunch of things from the Far Realms are Aberrations.

Actually, here, have a probably not exhaustive (because there are still several books I have yet to input to my monster database) list of [Extraplanar] non-Outsiders and their Types:

Black Rock Triskelion Elemental
Cyclonic Ravager Elemental
Holocaust Disciple Elemental
Abrian Magical Beast
Abyssal Ghoul Undead
Waterveiled Assassin Elemental
Bloodthorn Plant
Bonespear Vermin
Belker Elemental
Bodak Undead
Chraal Elemental
Clockwork Mender Construct
Clockwork Mender Swarm Construct
Chronotyryn Magical Beast
Darkweaver Aberration
Retriever Construct
Blood Fiend Undead
Elder Storm Elemental Elemental
Greater Storm Elemental Elemental
Huge Storm Elemental Elemental
Large Storm Elemental Elemental
Medium Storm Elemental Elemental
Small Storm Elemental Elemental
Devourer Undead
Ethereal Ooze Ooze
Black Ethergaunt Aberration
Red Ethergaunt Aberration
White Ethergaunt Aberration
Gloom Golem Construct
Fensir Giant
Rakka Giant
Prismatic Golem Construct
Fhorge Animal
Shadesteel Golem Construct
Inferno Spider Elemental
Gathra Magical Beast
Demonflesh Golem Construct
Hellfire Golem Construct
Roving Mauler Magical Beast
Elder Air Elemental Elemental
Greater Air Elemental Elemental
Huge Air Elemental Elemental
Large Air Elemental Elemental
Medium Air Elemental Elemental
Small Air Elemental Elemental
Elder Earth Elemental Elemental
Greater Earth Elemental Elemental
Huge Earth Elemental Elemental
Large Earth Elemental Elemental
Medium Earth Elemental Elemental
Small Earth Elemental Elemental
Elder Fire Elemental Elemental
Greater Fire Elemental Elemental
Huge Fire Elemental Elemental
Large Fire Elemental Elemental
Medium Fire Elemental Elemental
Small Fire Elemental Elemental
Elder Water Elemental Elemental
Greater Water Elemental Elemental
Huge Water Elemental Elemental
Large Water Elemental Elemental
Medium Water Elemental Elemental
Small Water Elemental Elemental
Quarut Inevitable Construct
Varakhut Inevitable Construct
Ironmaw Plant
Mivilorn Magical Beast
Elite Demon War Mount Magical Beast
Necronaut Undead
Aspect of Bahamut Dragon
Astral Kraken Vermin
Aspect of Tiamat Dragon
Dharculus Aberration
Frost Dwarf, 1st-level Warrior Humanoid
Air Elementite Swarm Elemental
Odopi Aberration
Khaasta Monstrous Humanoid
Earth Elementite Swarm Elemental
Elder Odopi Aberration
Kuldurath Magical Beast
Fire Elementite Swarm Elemental
Water Elementite Swarm Elemental
Living Holocaust Elemental
Elsewhale Magical Beast
Elysian Thrush Magical Beast
Omnimental Elemental
Maug Construct
Gaspar Magical Beast
Plague Brush Plant
Fire Gnome, 1st-level Warrior Humanoid
Ice Elemental Weird Elemental
Limbo Stalker Magical Beast
Skiurid Magical Beast
Snow Elemental Weird Elemental
Githyanki, 1st-Level Warrior Humanoid
Pack Fiend Magical Beast
Githzerai, 1st-Level Warrior Humanoid
Shadow Jelly Ooze
Ur'Epona Magical Beast
Arctine Elemental
Emberling Elemental
Geodite Elemental
Tempestan Elemental
Void Ooze Ooze
Phiuhl Aberration
Shadar-Kai Fey
Chaggrin Elemental
Shrieking Terror, 10-headed Aberration
Shrieking Terror, 5-headed Aberration
Harginn Elemental
Ildriss Elemental
Vardigg Elemental
Air Monolith Elemental
Earth Monolith Elemental
Slasrath Aberration
Dark Goblin Humanoid
Kolyarut Inevitable Construct
Marut Inevitable Construct
Zelekhut Inevitable Construct
Fire Monolith Elemental
Water Monolith Elemental
Anaxim Construct
Dark Lion Animal
Atropal Undead
Dark Umber Hulk Aberration
Invisible Stalker Elemental
Ephemeral Hangman Aberration
Dust Twister Elemental
Large Shadow Elemental Elemental
Medium Shadow Elemental Elemental
Small Shadow Elemental Elemental
Abyssal Ant Swarm Aberration
Elder Shadow Elemental Elemental
Greater Shadow Elemental Elemental
Huge Shadow Elemental Elemental
Cranium Rat Swarm (Lesser Pack) Magical Beast
Cranium Rat Swarm (Average Pack) Magical Beast
Cranium Rat Swarm (Greater Pack) Magical Beast
Bloodfiend Locust Swarm Vermin
Incarnum Dragon Dragon
Terlen Magical Beast
Battle Dragon Dragon
Chaos Dragon Dragon
Magmin Elemental
Ethereal Dragon Dragon
Quesar Construct
Howling Dragon Dragon
Arcanist Varrangoin Magical Beast
Lesser Varrangoin Magical Beast
Rager Varrangoin Magical Beast
Rhek Monstrous Humanoid
Oceanus Dragon Dragon
Pyroclastic Dragon Dragon
Radiant Dragon Dragon
Rust Dragon Dragon
Earth Whisper Elemental
Styx Dragon Dragon
Tarterian Dragon Dragon
Waste Crawler (Anhydrut) Construct
Nightcrawler Undead
Nightwalker Undead
Nightwing Undead
Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collector) Aberration
Hellwasp Swarm Magical Beast
Thoqqua Elemental


Also: all Types are mutually exclusive. You can have a Type and an [Augmented (other type)] Subtype, though, which usually gives you the traits of your current type and the features of your original type. But HD, BAB, saves, and skill points are all features, so in general, becoming [Augmented] won't change any of them. There are probably exceptions.


This should say "8 skill points and d12 HD". Though dragons, with 6 skill points, come pretty close.

You are correct, sir! Obviously I was still sleepy when I did the second list. Fix'd now.

[Chronos]

No, not being native to the material plane just gives you the [Extraplanar] subtype. As the obvious example, elementals aren't outsiders.

And even if there is some way to change type from Outsider to Undead or vice-versa, it wouldn't matter, because that's a type change. You can't be an Outsider and an Undead at the same time.

[Morph Bark]

Are there any undead templates that say they can be applied to outsiders? I don't know of any.

Becoming a Lichfiend presumably would work. I think it does not affect BAB and saves.

[Malimar]

Becoming a Lichfiend presumably would work. I think it does not affect BAB and saves.

You are correct! There is one! I hadn't realized that even existed, tucked away as it is with the variants at the back of The Book Of Correct But Slightly Idiosyncratic Latin rather than in with the real new monsters.

Yes, turns out applying lichfiend to an Outsider makes you Undead [Augmented Outsider] with d12HD, 8 skill points, and all good saves.

(Now I know what my next BBEG will be! Maybe.)

[Suteinu]

Savant from Dragon Compendium also has bade 8 skill points. Predecessor to the Factotum, probably tier 4-ish, but what do you want? It is based on a 2nd Ed. kit for half-elves!

Well, there it is.

[Rejusu]

Not being native to the Material Plane just gives you the [Extraplanar] subtype (whenever you're on the Material Plane, or any other plane to which you are not native). Outsider is something more specific.

Well I was looking at Savage Species for that:


Construct, Outsider, Undead: These three types reside at the top of the pyramid. Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a templete, it cannot become something else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.

Which is kind of confusing really. As for Extraplanar and Outsider, I think it's a case that on the material plane all extraplanar creatures are outsiders and all outsiders are extraplanar. On other planes a creature may be an outsider but are not automatically extraplanar.


An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

An outsider with the native subtype though isn't extraplanar.

[Malimar]

Well I was looking at Savage Species for that:

Which is kind of confusing really. As for Extraplanar and Outsider, I think it's a case that on the material plane all extraplanar creatures are outsiders and all outsiders are extraplanar. On other planes a creature may be an outsider but are not automatically extraplanar.

Nah, it's a case of "Savage Species is 3.0e and they've changed the rules since it came out." Pretend it doesn't exist. There are oodles upon oodles of creatures that aren't native to the Material Plane but aren't Outsiders.

On the material plane, all outsiders are either [extraplanar] or [native], but never both. ([Native] outsiders which travel to another plane will, I think, become [native, extraplanar], though. [Native] is specifically "native to the Material Realm", while [extraplanar] is "not native to the realm it currently occupies".)

Anything which travels to a plane which is not its own plane gains the [extraplanar] subtype. Outsider is a more specific thing than [Extraplanar]. It's kind of like elementals, but for alignments. There are lots of creatures that are from other planes but are not Outsiders.