3.5 Was I in the wrong

[thriceborn]

In a recent meet, my bard did something, mainly as a joke and everyone freaked out. Backstory: The paladin/Platinum knight in our party got a baby red dragon as a cohort somehow, I don't remember the exact feat. She got it when it was a baby, and it has been taught some things, but not that eating certain things are bad, and that certain items don't belong to it. In the meet before this one, it ate 2k gold worth of food from a trading house after being left there for less than a day, and ate someone elses dog while we were there, which would have been fine, but the dragon wasn't really scolded or taught that it did anything wrong. That was something I kinda brushed off, and in the last meet, it ate the gnomes, which is my characters, hammock, which that and the fact that it claimed to be able to eat anything smaller than it because it was stronger set my character off. He realized that the dragon needed an attitude adjustment and cast a single icicle from ice darts, doing like 4 damage to it. I figured my group of all college age gamers would realize this as a joke and as the bard basically spanking the dragon, but everyone freaked out out me. Now, my question is, was I as horrendously in the wrong as my group seems to think? I honestly believed that they would get it as a joke and we could move on, but everyone almost attacked me, only reason they didn't is the DM stepped in.

[eggs]

Hit points are weird.

Doing 4 damage can mean anything from causing it to duck under a casually lobbed dart to viciously stabbing it in the eye.

[pffh]

2000 golds worth of food, what the hell did it eat? That's like 200 cows or a thousand sheep or 200k pounds of wheat or a 100k chickens. It's a lot of food.

And yeah attacking you for something minor as that is a bit of an overreaction.

[Jeraa]

Spanking only causes pain, not actual damage. Doing actual hit point damage to the dragon, of an element the dragon is vulnerable to, is not the equivalent of spanking it. You attacked the dragon.

Sure, even wyrmling red dragons have a lot of hit points, but what you did was not the equivalent of spanking. It was the equivalent of taking a pencil and stabbing someone in the arm with it. It won't kill them, but it is still an attack.

I do think the the party over reacted though. But you did attack the dragon.

[SilverLeaf167]

Uh... from your story it seems that the Paladin doesn't mind all the destruction and tomfoolery caused by the dragon. If he's of the LG kind, this is definitely quite weird and probably not suitable for the character.

As for the actual question, I don't think what you did was really that horrible (though maybe a little exaggerated), the group overreacted and the dragon should be handled a little better from now on.

[Particle_Man]

Real damage = wounding, not spanking.

You might have been better off with spanking, as that would be non-lethal damage.

But you might have been better off not attacking a baby at all. Because, you know, baby.

[eggs]

Real damage = wounding
Per the PHB, HP are a hazy mechanical representation of basically anything representing a character's ability to defend itself (p145).

You could deal 300 damage to a dragon without it representing any physical contact, so long as the dragon ends up a bit jittered. What actually happens in the fiction depends on who narrates the events and what they narrate. (And yeah, that gets really weird with things like harpoons, knockback and poisoned weapons.)

This situation sounds like it's just two people interpreting an event in different ways (which is kind of weird, but understandable if a player isn't thoroughly communicating a character's behaviors). So the OP wasn't wrong (in the sense that what he said doesn't specifically represent even touching the dragon), but he's not right either (in the sense that it could represent skewering the dragon's kidney on a dart, then twisting it about).

But this seems like a situation where the solution is just shrugging it off and continuing play, instead of making a huge deal. Once there are weird interplayer arguments and people turning to the internet for support in those arguments, there's a good chance everybody involved was in the wrong - just not in the rules sense.

[Urpriest]

While I would never suggest actually using the rules for the Paladin's Code, be aware that if you are using them the Paladin will have fallen by now, since Red Dragons are Always CE and as such the Paladin is knowingly associating with an evil character.

[ericgrau]

So it is a poke not a spank. His party still overreacted. You could do whatever makes them happy next time: maybe scaring it or nonlethal damage or whatever. On top of telling them to calm down over 4 damage. As in you may not be in the wrong for casting the spell but you do need to find a peaceful way to settle the matter and try not to escalate it. That would be wrong.

[hamishspence]

be aware that if you are using them the Paladin will have fallen by now, since Red Dragons are Always CE and as such the Paladin is knowingly associating with an evil character.

The "Things a paladin falls for" list in PHB doesn't actually include "knowingly associating with an evil character"- it simply says "paladins do not do this" elsewhere in the character entry.

"trying to redeem it" is accepted as valid in Dragon Magazine. And Defenders of the Faith (clerics & paladins splatbook) says while extremely risky, paladins can do it- they must simply weigh up the risk of personal corruption vs the goal (redeeming the evildoer, or defeating a major threat that requires the evildoer's aid to defeat).

[Urpriest]

The "Things a paladin falls for" list in PHB doesn't actually include "knowingly associating with an evil character"- it simply says "paladins do not do this" elsewhere in the character entry.

"trying to redeem it" is accepted as valid in Dragon Magazine. And Defenders of the Faith (clerics & paladins splatbook) says while extremely risky, paladins can do it- they must simply weigh up the risk of personal corruption vs the goal (redeeming the evildoer, or defeating a major threat that requires the evildoer's aid to defeat).

As usual, hamish knows everything when it comes to alignment. Listen to this man, not me.

[Red_Dog]

While I would never suggest actually using the rules for the Paladin's Code, be aware that if you are using them the Paladin will have fallen by now, since Red Dragons are Always CE and as such the Paladin is knowingly associating with an evil character.

Pretty much this. Its even funnier that if paladin was CE, he would have fallen for not causing enough damage hehehe ^^.


Also, why oh why in a game where players routinely hack off NPCs limbs, players suddenly throw a temper tantrum over an attack on a pet?O_o Rhetorical I know *rollseyes* Sure a character might have stopped you when you went to far, but only the character who's pet was it. The rest of the party seemed to metagamed to me, unless they all in character supported the chaotic behavior. And even than, chaotic behavior begets the same, as in, if two party members behave in discordance, one shouldn't hesitate too much on pulling pranks on the other. Such is the nature of poor impulse control ^^

P.S. I am not sure if you explicitly stated this before lobbing things. but You could for future reference explicitly state in character for the owner to keep he pet on the metaphorical leash.

P.S.2. and of course the obligatory "Relax guys, its just a game ^^" is always in order in "party politics" threads ^^.

[hamishspence]

I like to interpret alignment in as "player-friendly" a way as possible- so I read everything I can find on it.

Being "always evil" means it's difficult to raise them nonevil- but it has been known to happen. In MM2 it says crystal dragons are known to steal white dragon eggs and raise them as unusually friendly white dragons.

The Diplomacy rules in BoED could also work- though roleplaying it out may be more interesting.

In Faerun- a half red/half blue dragon called Garnet was successfully raised as a good dragon by one of the elves of Myth Drannor.

[Titanium Fox]

I like to interpret alignment in as "player-friendly" a way as possible- so I read everything I can find on it.

Being "always evil" means it's difficult to raise them nonevil- but it has been known to happen. In MM2 it says crystal dragons are known to steal white dragon eggs and raise them as unusually friendly white dragons.

The Diplomacy rules in BoED could also work- though roleplaying it out may be more interesting.

In Faerun- a half red/half blue dragon called Garnet was successfully raised as a good dragon by one of the elves of Myth Drannor.

One of my players in a campaign I ran last year took it on himself to attempt to create a community between both Prismatic and Chromatic dragons; this was his life's work. I doing so, he successfully brought a Red and Black dragon up to CN, keeping the pair, as well as a Gold and Silver dragon, teaching them of the world and the ways of the other races.

Again, keep in mind this was his life's work, not a passing thing. The amount of effort expended to raise two Chromatic dragons out of the Evil Alignment Descriptor was staggering; however it very well can be done.

[Ursus the Grim]

If this was Eberron, its entirely possible the red dragon wasn't actually evil. . ..

[Urpriest]

If this was Eberron, its entirely possible the red dragon wasn't actually evil. . ..

If it was Eberron, there probably wouldn't be a Platinum Knight in the party.

[Larkas]

"trying to redeem it" is accepted as valid in Dragon Magazine. And Defenders of the Faith (clerics & paladins splatbook) says while extremely risky, paladins can do it- they must simply weigh up the risk of personal corruption vs the goal (redeeming the evildoer, or defeating a major threat that requires the evildoer's aid to defeat).

I think the part in bold is important. The paladin in question is obviously not trying to redeem the evil doer, and being the dragonling a pet, it is more of an every-day helper than a major quest helper. While I really don't like the paladin's code, this is one of the few situations I would use it mechanically to make the paladin fall.

Also, it would be priceless for the paladin to fall because of bad parenting :smallbiggrin:

[huttj509]

At what point did the gnome point out "you're teaching him to EAT ME!"

Cause, I mean, dragon eating things with no repercussions.
Bigger and stronger than you, even as a baby.
Ate someone's dog, again, with no repercussions.
Party laughs off destruction of ally's' gear.
Party laughs off destruction of ally?

I mean, 'gnome' and 'nom' sound similar, but...

[Dayzgone]

Trasilor is right in the sense that 4 dmg to a wyrmling red dragon is nothing more than a slap on the wrist for it. While im not saying what u did is right, I don’t think the other players should have acted the way they did. It is a game after all, and you were just playing your character. However there is no way that the paladin is playing LG, he just let a red dragon wonder off on its own :smallconfused: that wouldn’t fly with me

[Urpriest]

Trasilor is right in the sense that 4 dmg to a wyrmling red dragon is nothing more than a slap on the wrist for it. While im not saying what u did is right, I don’t think the other players should have acted the way they did. It is a game after all, and you were just playing your character. However there is no way that the paladin is playing LG, he just let a red dragon wonder off on its own :smallconfused: that wouldn’t fly with me

In terms of permanent consequences it's nothing more than a slap on the wrist. However, it's an energy type that the dragon is vulnerable to. So it's not like you're hitting the dragon with a sword, but it is perhaps like you're holding a child's hand on the burner of an oven.

In any case, though, hit points and pain are, as others have mentioned, dissociated. What should have happened is that the DM or one of the players should have pointed out that the ice dart was a harsher measure than you thought and let you take the action back.

[hamishspence]

If it was Eberron, there probably wouldn't be a Platinum Knight in the party.

Tiamat does exist in Eberron (as a rakshasa rajah) and I think Bahamut is worshipped on the dragon continent Argonnesson.

[JadePhoenix]

Tiamat does exist in Eberron (as a rakshasa rajah) and I think Bahamut is worshipped on the dragon continent Argonnesson.

Also, it's written somewhere in ECS that if it exists in an official D&D book, it exists in Eberron.

[razark]

If she isn't going to control her pet, and is going to allow it to destroy your stuff, you were in the right. Explain that what you did was a warning, and if it continues, you will, as well.

[JadePhoenix]

If she isn't going to control her pet, and is going to allow it to destroy your stuff, you were in the right. Explain that what you did was a warning, and if it continues, you will, as well.

So if a dog eats your hamburger, you stick a pencil in the dogs paw?

[King Atticus]

Just heal it afterwards.

A little pop science for ya (totally my opinion no psych training at work :smallwink: )
If you want to use pain as instructional tool (as a parent does with spanking) it shouldn't be done out of a place of anger. A little pain followed up with a reassurance of love is far more beneficial without causing resentment. So HP damage as a consequence of inappropriate actions is fine it shows a causal relationship...do bad things expect pain. But then heal the HP damage to reaffirm that there isn't any ill will.

In other words...taking away the damage afterwards should keep your party from getting pissy if they are even pretending to be reasonable.

[razark]

So if a dog eats your hamburger, you stick a pencil in the dogs paw?
If the dog repeatedly eats everyone's hamburgers, you can bet I'm going to discipline the dog in some way. If it's that big a problem, make the problem stop or go away.

4 hp? Meh.

[Siosilvar]

So if a dog eats your hamburger, you stick a pencil in the dogs paw?

No, but if it eats $2000 worth of food, the neighbor's dog, and my entire couch, you can bet I'm going to throw it across the room.

[Red_Dog]

So if a dog eats your hamburger, you stick a pencil in the dogs paw?

If the dog in question can speak, and was instructed not to do so? Or perhaps an even better analogy. If the dog caused several thousands of damage to your neighbor/friend/etc. property?0_o it seems more of a problem than a missing hamburger.

[Ursus the Grim]

Just heal it afterwards.

A little pop science for ya (totally my opinion no psych training at work :smallwink: )
If you want to use pain as instructional tool (as a parent does with spanking) it shouldn't be done out of a place of anger. A little pain followed up with a reassurance of love is far more beneficial without causing resentment. So HP damage as a consequence of inappropriate actions is fine it shows a causal relationship...do bad things expect pain. But then heal the HP damage to reaffirm that there isn't any ill will.

In other words...taking away the damage afterwards should keep your party from getting pissy if they are even pretending to be reasonable.

If we're talking instructional tools, though, we shouldn't even use pain as a lesson. Especially because, being CE creatures, Reds are probably subject to quite a bit of pain in their usual upbringing. What should be happening is positive reinforcement, not, as you pointed out, injury from anger.

I would ask for reparations from the Paladin, not injure the dragon. Any way you paint it, lethal damage from a vulnerable energy type was dealt to an infant out of anger. Furthermore, 'just a slap on the wrist' doesn't hold up either. A slap on the wrist in game terms would be subdual damage, 1 point at most. This dragon is, from what I gather, not even a wyrmling and very likely doesn't have 60 hp to toss around. I'd estimate probably closer to half of that, depending on how your DM rules babies.

Yeah. Its analogous to stabbing your dog for eating your shoe (stabbing but missing any major organs), then patching him up afterwards because 'you're sorry.' Heck, if I were the Paladin, I'd be concerned about you too.

Yeah, they over-reacted, but so did the OP.

Edit: And the number of people who are willing to abuse their pet for their shortcomings as a trainer is starting to make me a little ill.

[hamishspence]

This dragon is, from what I gather, not even a wyrmling and very likely doesn't have 60 hp to toss around. I'd estimate probably closer to half of that, depending on how your DM rules babies.

In Draconomicon, newly hatched dragons can't fly, have -2 to Dex, and -2 to attack rolls- but they are otherwise as normal wyrmlings- and lose these penalties after 1 hour.

[JadePhoenix]

If the dog in question can speak, and was instructed not to do so? Or perhaps an even better analogy. If the dog caused several thousands of damage to your neighbor/friend/etc. property?0_o it seems more of a problem than a missing hamburger.

So your 5-year-old son blew up the neighbor's car. The neighor stabs him in the leg. Is this fine?

[razark]

Edit: And the number of people who are willing to abuse their pet for their shortcomings as a trainer is starting to make me a little ill.
It disturbs me that people get so bent out of shape over a fictional event occurring to a fictional creature. We're talking about an action in an RPG, not some guy actually stabbing a dog.

Would I have a problem with the player killing the dragon in game? No more so than the player (again, in game) tossing an orphanage full of babies into a wood chipper. In other words, not at all.

Would I have a problem with a guy stabbing his dog for eating a hamburger in real life? Hell yes.

[hamishspence]

So your 5-year-old son blew up the neighbor's car. The neighor stabs him in the leg. Is this fine?

A slightly closer example would be "squirts him with small jet from a water pistol- full of liquid nitrogen"

It does seem like the wrong way to go about preventing destructiveness- even if the dragon is intimidated into behaving, it may be resentful.

Still- when dealing with CE creatures you wish to steer away from Evilness, intimidation may be a necessary starting point.

Probably best to think of the dragon as less "5 year old" and more "Thog" -childlike attitude- deadly abilities and an attraction to destructiveness.

[Arbitrarious]

In a recent meet, my bard did something, mainly as a joke and everyone freaked out. Backstory: The paladin/Platinum knight in our party got a baby red dragon as a cohort somehow, I don't remember the exact feat. She got it when it was a baby, and it has been taught some things, but not that eating certain things are bad, and that certain items don't belong to it. In the meet before this one, it ate 2k gold worth of food from a trading house after being left there for less than a day, and ate someone elses dog while we were there, which would have been fine, but the dragon wasn't really scolded or taught that it did anything wrong. That was something I kinda brushed off, and in the last meet, it ate the gnomes, which is my characters, hammock, which that and the fact that it claimed to be able to eat anything smaller than it because it was stronger set my character off. He realized that the dragon needed an attitude adjustment and cast a single icicle from ice darts, doing like 4 damage to it. I figured my group of all college age gamers would realize this as a joke and as the bard basically spanking the dragon, but everyone freaked out out me. Now, my question is, was I as horrendously in the wrong as my group seems to think? I honestly believed that they would get it as a joke and we could move on, but everyone almost attacked me, only reason they didn't is the DM stepped in.

This would be an excellent time to point out to the dragon that you are stronger then it. By it's own logic you can eat it, best noted while pulling out utensils. See if the dragon has an epiphany about appropriate behavior when it is applied to him.

From a party standpoint it's harder to say. You can just say that the paladin owes for any damages his pet inflicts. Honestly though he isn't sounding to LG. What kind of pally is he?

[Red_Dog]

So your 5-year-old son blew up the neighbor's car. The neighor stabs him in the leg. Is this fine?

Whyrmlings while might be "just 5" grow up very quickly and enter that "teen phase".

So the example would be if my 12-15 year old son blows up a neighbors car, if said neighbors knocks some of his teeth out, I would tell the neighbor to back off. But I would let the first strike slide simply so maybe there would be a chance for a neighbor to NOT go to court and not take away my house and my pants.

Hell if anything the "appropriate reaction" would be for the neighbor to knock my teeth out because I've done a horrid job raising my son.

But suddenly if OP did that to a player in character everyone goes crying, ranting and raving because "you can't attack the party man!". And I don't even mean "icicle flinging" but more of a shield bash across the face. That is, in character an appropriate reaction. Especially IF prior warning was given.

[Wings of Peace]

Over reacted.

[Marnath]

If we're talking instructional tools, though, we shouldn't even use pain as a lesson. Especially because, being CE creatures, Reds are probably subject to quite a bit of pain in their usual upbringing. What should be happening is positive reinforcement, not, as you pointed out, injury from anger.

I would ask for reparations from the Paladin, not injure the dragon. Any way you paint it, lethal damage from a vulnerable energy type was dealt to an infant out of anger. Furthermore, 'just a slap on the wrist' doesn't hold up either. A slap on the wrist in game terms would be subdual damage, 1 point at most. This dragon is, from what I gather, not even a wyrmling and very likely doesn't have 60 hp to toss around. I'd estimate probably closer to half of that, depending on how your DM rules babies.

Yeah. Its analogous to stabbing your dog for eating your shoe (stabbing but missing any major organs), then patching him up afterwards because 'you're sorry.' Heck, if I were the Paladin, I'd be concerned about you too.

Yeah, they over-reacted, but so did the OP.

Edit: And the number of people who are willing to abuse their pet for their shortcomings as a trainer is starting to make me a little ill.

Yeah, no. Wyrmling red dragons are born as intelligent as an average human adult, comparing one to a pet is disingenuous at best.

As far as positive reinforcement goes, that doesn't even work very well in real life on humans let alone a creature that is all but incapable of learning to behave in a constructive manner. Pain and negative reinforcement is the only thing an evil dragon is going to understand. If he's strong enough to take something it means he deserves it, and it's a one in a million dragon who can learn to see past that.

You can't really compare launching an icicle at him to stabbing a dog in the paw with a pencil, because a wyrmling can take three times as much punishment as a Clydesdale before dropping and he has skin as hard as a suit of splint mail.

[Ursus the Grim]

It disturbs me that people get so bent out of shape over a fictional event occurring to a fictional creature. We're talking about an action in an RPG, not some guy actually stabbing a dog.

Would I have a problem with the player killing the dragon in game? No more so than the player (again, in game) tossing an orphanage full of babies into a wood chipper. In other words, not at all.

Would I have a problem with a guy stabbing his dog for eating a hamburger in real life? Hell yes.

I was referring to posts like the immediate below and similar statements used to justify the OP.


if it eats $2000 worth of food, the neighbor's dog, and my entire couch, you can bet I'm going to throw it across the room.



In Draconomicon, newly hatched dragons can't fly, have -2 to Dex, and -2 to attack rolls- but they are otherwise as normal wyrmlings- and lose these penalties after 1 hour.

Thanks for the clarifications. So if we're going by RAW, its probably been more than 1 hour and is therefore a wyrmling with intelligence 10 and wisdom 11. This isn't a pet, this is a sentient creature with human-level logic and knowledge. It becomes less of a question of stabbing a dog and more a question of stabbing a character that the Paladin is attempting to condition.

I suppose a close analogy would be the Roy and Belkar relationship. In this analogy, Belkar's being stabbed by Haley for destroying property but Roy is expected to shrug it off because 4 points of damage isn't that much to a pc of Belkar's level anyway.

I meant to ask this question anyway. What level is the party? A Paladin can get a Gold wyrmling as special mount at 12th and depending on interpretation of Dragon Cohort, must be at least 10th or 13th level to have a Red Wyrmling as a Cohort. At 10th you have just under 50k according to WBL. This would be a small number for the Paladin to pay out as compensation. Bard should have asked the Paladin to pay for the damages instead of reacting in violence to the Paladin's ward.

This is the same kind of thing that happens when a rogue attempts to pocket a trinket for themselves. In the end, its an ultimately harmless action but the rest of the part sees it as a slight and things get ugly.

Edit:


You can't really compare launching an icicle at him to stabbing a dog in the paw with a pencil, because a wyrmling can take three times as much punishment as a Clydesdale before dropping and he has skin as hard as a suit of splint mail.

Actually I can.

A collie or husky has an average of 13 hit points. Stabbing with a pencil would likely deal 1 point of damage. Let's be dramatic and say its lethal damage. You can stab the husky 13 times to bring it to 0.

A red wyrmling has an average of 59 hit points. Ice darts deals 2d4 damage. After accounting for vulnerability, that's an average of 7 damage per dart. You can dart the wyrmling an average of 8 times before bringing it to negative.

BTdubs, armor doesn't mean a thing when you're getting hit by a touch spell you're weak against.

[erikun]

Some people are perfectly fine with dealing a few points of HP damage; others take any attack roll as a serious threat to a character's life. It seems that most of your party was in the second camp.

As for if you were wrong; it ate your bed and said it was perfectly fine with eating you, too. I'd say you were justified in defending yourself, especially since the party paladin (who was responsible for it!) apparently had no problem with it trying to eat your character. However, in the right and acceptable to the party are ideas that frequently diverge.

[Ursus the Grim]

Some people are perfectly fine with dealing a few points of HP damage; others take any attack roll as a serious threat to a character's life. It seems that most of your party was in the second camp.

As for if you were wrong; it ate your bed and said it was perfectly fine with eating you, too. I'd say you were justified in defending yourself, especially since the party paladin (who was responsible for it!) apparently had no problem with it trying to eat your character. However, in the right and acceptable to the party are ideas that frequently diverge.

Well-stated.

Again, my issue isn't with that the bard took offense to it, but I'm in the second camp that erikun mentioned. Dealing lethal damage is a pretty clear statement of intent. As a bard with presumably good charisma and people skills, the easiest/most appropriate way to handle this would have been to use those people skills to work things out.

[Averis Vol]

i could feasibly see backhanding the dragon and going on a long rant about how the dragon needs to learn its manners and at the end, make a show of your power, like using shout to tear down a patch of trees or something, and warning it that at anytime you could have ended the dragon with barely a breath. then look to the paladin and tell him to keep his dragon in check, because eventually its going to escalate and the paladin is going to be responsible for someones life. then walk off and find yourself a new hammock in town.

no, the dragon wasn't in the right and you definitely should have disciplined him. but magic is a powerful force not to be taken lightly, even from a bard.