looking for a fun class to play outta the PH

[shuikage]

So looking for a class to play out of the PH that is fun and can dish out some damage. Its also has to be a race from that book also. But prestiging I can go into anybook after that.

[Psyren]

PH? You mean Planar Handbook?

Planar Sorcerer is a good way to get into Fiendblooded on time. Planar wizard gives you the effect of free (albeit weak) metamagic. Beyond that the classes are pretty bad.

As far as races, Neraphim and Bariaurs are your best bet. Buommans make decent Psychic Warriors/Ardents.

[Venusaur]

If Player's handbook is PH (the usual abbreviation is PHB), then I would recommend Cleric or Druid. They both have incredible utility, and can buff up or turn into a bear to deal incredible melee damage. The best part is that they don't even really need prestige classes. (Most druid PrC's actually make them weaker).

[shuikage]

@psyren sorry for the confusion i did mean the players handbook/

@venusaur so a druid would be a good way to go. As i have never played a character that can change forms and what not. is it pretty simple to use or not?

[Inferno]

For both power and ease of use in core only cleric is probably your best bet.
[http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0"]Read This[/URL]

[SowZ]

@psyren sorry for the confusion i did mean the players handbook/

@venusaur so a druid would be a good way to go. As i have never played a character that can change forms and what not. is it pretty simple to use or not?

Druid is a solid choice from pretty much every angle and can fill the majority of roles. You have an animal companion that can take damage/serve as a scout/serve as a mount/do great melee damage especially at low levels. Your hit dice aren't bad, neither is your BAB, neither is your spellcasting, and you have two good saves. You get enough skillpoints to keep a few of your most important skills maxed out. Since your a divine caster, you know all of your spells which include some blasting, some buffing, some summoning, some healing, etc. You learn to shapeshift so physical stats don't matter to you freeing up your mental stats to all be good. The shapeshifting also enables you to fly, burrow, jump incredibly, fight in melee, tank, have great perception, etc. etc. whatever the situation calls for.

Druid is the most flexible class in the PHB and IMO the whole game, without having to sacrifice raw power as you would with one of the other well-rounded classes, (like bard.) Since you don't need to specialize or pick spells, it is hard to screw up a build. Cleric is not hard to use either and has some flexibility and certainly good power. But I personally find druids more fun, largely because of the shapeshifting and animal companion. A few nice benefits are thrown your way including you cannot be tracked, you eventually become immune to poison, you can shapechange your face and so outdisguise the party rogue without a single disguise rank.

[Big Fau]

is it pretty simple to use or not?

It's a Vanican caster that uses Polymorph effects and has one or more minons. If you aren't familiar with one of these things, you're going to have a bit of difficulty playing a Druid to it's full potential.

That said, ask for help whenever you stumble on something that confuses you. The Druid is nearly n00b-proof once you understand the basics.

[nedz]

For both power and ease of use in core only cleric is probably your best bet.
[http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0"]Read This[/URL]
Er, I think you mean this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)


The Druid is nearly n00b-proof once you understand the basics.
Famous last words ?

Druids are cool, but just play what you want.

[Rejusu]

That's a bit odd, you're limited to the PHB for base classes but can take a PrC from any book? You might just want to figure out what prestige class you'd like to play and pick the appropriate base class. Restricting you to PHB only base classes though is a silly move by your DM. The PHB is one of the most unbalanced books in 3.5, simultaneously containing some of the games best classes and some of it's most sub-optimal. Of the 10 PHB bases classes 4 of them are tier 1/2, 5 are tier 4/5 and only 1 is tier 3.

See if you're allowed variants on the core classes, Dungeoncrasher fighter (Dungeonscape) or Wildshape Ranger (SRD) can both be fun choices. Bards are quite nice too and you can PrC out into Sublime Chord later. Druids are great fun too, but require a bit of work to play well.

[Eldest]

Druids are actually fairly complex to play. I would say that if this is your first time playing, and you want dependable damage, try playing a Sorcerer. They are mainly powerful for their ascess to the Wiz/Sorc spell list, but the limited spells known and the multitude of spells/day make it less powerful (it is tier two, while Druid is tier one). However, the same quirks that make them less powerful make them easier to manage.
However, that's just my personal opinion, partly because I don't like having to decide what spells to prepare. A Druid is perfectly fun, and can do a lot of damage.

[Alienist]

Is it just me, or do Druids not have all that many options (e.g. spells) for improving their animal companion in core?

I looked at the spells under fifth level and was unimpressed. Sure you can share barkskin and fameblade(?), but then you and the animal need to stick together or the spell falls off.

So lets say I 'blow my wad' of second level spells on barkskin and the stat increases, is a couple of extra points of damage (for a short time) and a few extra points of AC worth it? Or am I better off just summoning the animals/natures allies as backup anyway?

I suppose it might be more favourable at high levels to do the buffing, because what else are you going to do with those spell slots, after all the nature's allies from the level 2 spell aren't going to do uou any good at levels 12+

[Particle_Man]

So looking for a class to play out of the PH that is fun and can dish out some damage. Its also has to be a race from that book also. But prestiging I can go into anybook after that.

Note that they all can be fun. Is there one that appeals to you? Halfling Barbarians can be amusing.

How do you like to dish out damage? Big weapon? Feet and Fists? Turn into an animal? Knife in the jugular? Magical might?

[shuikage]

well i was just looking for fun class to play out of it that isnt super hard to play but is still a little challenging. I have played a few times and just trying to make a more optimized but still learning on how to and what not with it all. And i love just bashing things in the face with a weapon that sometimes explodes with fire or ice or lightning lol.

[Toy Killer]

Simple, powerful and fun has Sorcerer written all over it. Otherwise I would say Bard, Barbarian, Fighter or Cleric, in sliding scale order of simplicty to power.

Bard
Very straight forward, pick spells every few levels and the spells are self explaining and obvious when to use, otherwise skills are your biggest obstacle and fortunately you can fill most roles in a party. they are (Imho) a very roll and go kind of class.

Barbarian
Big, hard to kill, and they swing stuff dead. some tough choices in feats, but mostly you want to swing bigger things harder. some really good prestige classes to boot!

Fighter
good BAB, lotsa feats, and can qualify for a verity of PRC pretty easily, if nothing else, you will get most of the buffs in the party and be very familiar with the combat rules quickly.

Cleric
Clerics are hard to roll wrong, but playing one wisely is slightly more difficult. fortunately, though, it's a very very forgiving class and very easy to make up for individual mistakes. the biggest issues is possibly messing up a good feat selection here or there, but many very good PrC to pick up from there.

[Particle_Man]

If you just want Short and Sweet, I would go with a Half-Orc Fighter and take Power Attack and Cleave as your first feats at 1st level. Use a greataxe (so a crit will be rather awesome with triple damage!). Eventually you will want the Icy Burst, Flame Burst and Shocking Burst on your weapon to really make your critical hit a thing of joy and beauty, but that will take a while.

You will not be as optimized as a wizard, etc., could be, but you will have a character that is fairly easy to use, can be buffed by others to do great damage, and that gets a lot of feats so that if you want to go for a prestige class it will be relatively easy to qualify.

There is a feat in Complete Warrior called "Shock Trooper" that does really well with Power Attack. Combat Brute in the same book is nice too. And there are some nice feats in the Player's Handbook II.

Anyhow, have fun!

[Darth Stabber]

Druid is really hard to mess up. Assuming you max out (or put your best roll into) Wisdom and remember to pick up natural spell at 6 you can take toughness for all of your other feats, and spend all your skill ranks on craft(lame excuse) and Profession(dirt farming) and still rock hard.

For super effectiveness with almost no thought (28 pt. buy)

Human Druid 6
Str-8
Dex-10
Con-14
Int-12
Wis-19
Cha-8

Skills
Concentration - 9
Spellcraft - 9
Know(nature) - 9
Ride - 9
Handle Animal - 9
Spot - 9

Feats
Spell Focus(conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Extend Spell
Natural Spell

And if you hate worrying about Items, you can use this feat set up
Flaw - Shaky or vulnerable
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Spell Focus(conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Natural Spell
+exalted feats granted by VoP
As a druid (assuming your GM isn't a tool and counts holly and mistletoe as stuff you can't have) you can support VoP better than anyone.

[Slipperychicken]

So looking for a class to play out of the PH that is fun and can dish out some damage. Its also has to be a race from that book also. But prestiging I can go into anybook after that.

You could always go Barbarian/Bear Warrior(complete warrior 16). You want fun and damage, but Druid is too complicated? Now you can get so angry you turn into a freaking bear, how cool is that?. Enemies in the next room? Turn into a bear and pulverize them! Someone calls you uncivilized? Turn into a bear and maul him, who's uncivilized now?!


I mean, you'll only want one level in Bear Warrior, but the prereqs are a joke, so you don't lose anything. After that, take something cool like Runescarred Berserker (if you want a little intro to spellcasting) or Fist of the Forest (if you're going for Unarmed Striking). Of course, Druid does the same thing, only better (and with a whole army of bears at his side), but also much more complicated.

[HunterOfJello]

Bard or Sorcerer.


Bards aren't too high on the damage roster and are a bit more complex, but they do great once you start picking up some good Prestige Class levels and good feats from other books (i.e. Dragonfire Inspiration, I'm looking at you). Bards are great in parties with 4+ characters and make the perfect 5th character in a group. They can fight in melee, attack from a distance, buff up their party, heal a bit, cast spells, and do pretty much everything decently well.

Sorcerers are the ultimate blasting class and great for new players. You pick out a spell or two when you level up and then you run around the world blasting things and casting spells. Wizards and other prepared casters are complicated all the time. Sorcerers are only slightly complicated when you're choosing your spells known. This is an easy feat to accomplish by going online and by looking through the books at what you like. Sorcerers are awesome and have my highest recommendation.

[Flickerdart]

Bard isn't very strong in Core. Most of their shiny stuff is in splats.

You really can't go wrong with Barbarians. Pick up a big stick, and start hurting people with it. When people try to hurt you back, they fail because you're hard to hurt. Book-keeping? You're not even literate.

Druid, on the other hand, will need a ton of bookmarks through the Monster Manual and Player's Handbook for all the spells and wildshape forms you might want to call on at a moment's notice.

[Empedocles]

well i was just looking for fun class to play out of it that isnt super hard to play but is still a little challenging. I have played a few times and just trying to make a more optimized but still learning on how to and what not with it all. And i love just bashing things in the face with a weapon that sometimes explodes with fire or ice or lightning lol.

The rogue can be quite fun. If you make him a gnome also you get all sorts of trickery! You won't be super powerful, but it can be fun.

If you're just looking to bash stuff in the face with magic...sorcerer is relatively beginner friendly, cleric can do that (you might end up just being a walking bandaid for the party), and druid is fun.

[Rejusu]

Bard isn't very strong in Core. Most of their shiny stuff is in splats.

Sounds like the OP is only limited to Core for base classes (for some bizarre reason), he did say he could take a PrC from any other book so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to take feats and spells form them too. Plus it also means Sublime Chord is on the table, which makes Bards a more than respectable choice.

[docnessuno]

Sorcerer is the class i usually suggest to newcomers. Easy to use and quite forgiving. Just make sure to pick good spells.

Human is a very good race for sorcerers and it's considered usually one of the strongest races in the whole 3.5

[Ravens_cry]

Barbarian can be fun if you are fine with your abilities boiling down to "SMASH" and "SMASH HARDER!"
Put some points in Dex, dump Charisma, Intelligence and to a certain degree Wisdom, and put the vast majority into Constitution and Strength. Pick up your two handed weapon of choice and bring on the RAGE OF THE BEAST! ! !:smallfurious:

[Rejusu]

Human is a very good race for sorcerers and it's considered usually one of the strongest races in the whole 3.5

Not surprising really, it has no penalties and gives you a free feat and skill points. Since all characters use feats that makes it a viable choice for the vast majority of character builds. The fact it has no ability penalties ensures they'll never have a penalty to any classes primary ability dependencies too. Where as races with penalties discourage you from playing certain classes, after all you're not going to find many half-orc bards.

However while humans are the strongest in terms of flexibility and viability for builds they're not always the best choice. Ultimately best choice of race depends on the build you're doing. What makes humans so good is that while they might not always be the best choice, they're almost never a bad choice.

[sonofzeal]

The Druid is nearly n00b-proof once you understand the basics.

Druid is really hard to mess up. Assuming you max out (or put your best roll into) Wisdom and remember to pick up natural spell at 6 you can take toughness for all of your other feats, and spend all your skill ranks on craft(lame excuse) and Profession(dirt farming) and still rock hard.
*sigh* :smallsigh: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223072)


shuikage - if you have to ask if Druids are "pretty simple to use", the answer is emphatically "NO". They are perhaps the single most bookkeeping-intensive class in the game, and even just understanding Wildshape leads you into a whole morass of rules.

Cleric, however, is pretty simple - buff up, then smack down. You can heal, but the best healing is proactive. Either kill enemies faster, or layer on buffs that prevent the harm in the first place like "Resist Energy", "Freedom of Movement", "Death Ward", etc. Then, when nothing they can do actually hurts you, bash them in the face while Divine Favour'd and Righteous Might'd up the wazoo.

Great times all round. ^^

[Big Fau]

shuikage - if you have to ask if Druids are "pretty simple to use", the answer is emphatically "NO". They are perhaps the single most bookkeeping-intensive class in the game, and even just understanding Wildshape leads you into a whole morass of rules.

Artificer ring any bells? I may be bad with numbers, but that class hurts my brain.

[ericgrau]

Sorcerer is very easy to play but depends heavily on spell selection so I wouldn't make one without a lot of help on the spell list. Or you'll be playing sad games where you don't have anything useful to cast. Bard is even worse for a new player. Wizards and clerics could be a good way to learn because you can change your spells, but again unless you figure it out over time or get help eventually it'll be a struggle to have useful things to cast. Barbarians and fighters are easier but maybe too easy to keep your interest.

Hmm, I'd go one of three ways:
1. Get help on your spell list and play a sorcerer.
2. Play a wizard or cleric and do a lot of work to figure it out as you go.
3. Barbarian or fighter for something super easy, but PrC into something more interesting (?).

I'd strongly suggest avoiding bard, druid, monk or rogue. They could easily get complicated and frustrating.

You might do ok with paladin or ranger but there are a lot of traps and it's hard to play one that isn't simply an inferior barbarian/fighter: just as boring but weaker. Unless you get some help, then that could change things.

[shuikage]

well im not new and i have gone the cleric route and never enjoyed it as i was just there to heal and thats NO fun at all lol. but book keeping is easy when i have most and can be done quick with the right tools. so im going to look into druid just would need some help into optimizing it so i dont completely suck with it.

[sonofzeal]

Artificer ring any bells? I may be bad with numbers, but that class hurts my brain.
Eh.... I've played one. You really just have to track xp and gp more carefully. It's not the morass that is Druid where you have to have about five or more different character sheets going - you, your animal companion, your common wildshape forms, and potentially some common augmented summons. That's on top of being a full spellcaster with a massive pile of mid duration buffs which are often the worst for additional paperwork.

Aftificers just need a handy calculator and a track of the current totals. Druids need a whole notebook. And they can also craft.



well im not new and i have gone the cleric route and never enjoyed it as i was just there to heal and thats NO fun at all lol. but book keeping is easy when i have most and can be done quick with the right tools. so im going to look into druid just would need some help into optimizing it so i dont completely suck with it.
Er... that's not the best way to play Clerics by a long shot. Try a War Cleric some time, they're a very different experience. :smallamused:

[shuikage]

yea thats what happens when everyone else just kinda goes off and does their own things after collaborating what was going to happen. i got screwed over those games.

[nedz]

well im not new and i have gone the cleric route and never enjoyed it as i was just there to heal and thats NO fun at all lol. but book keeping is easy when i have most and can be done quick with the right tools. so im going to look into druid just would need some help into optimizing it so i dont completely suck with it.

With clerics its quite easy to fall into the "Eric the Cleric" mode of play where you are just a healbot. There is some of that at low levels; at high levels its more of a case of being a problem solver by countering other magic effects, as well as buffing everyone else.

Overall though you should aim to lead the party along the path directed by your higher calling (which, of course, you choose at chargen). It is also possible to make a cleric who out performs most mellee types in the front line - a so called CoDzilla. Note that the C stands for Cleric and D for Druid.

There are a number of handbooks around which cover the details. Basically a Druid starts with an animal companion which you can turn into a mount, a scout or a front line fighter depending upon your choice of creature and the Buffs you cast on it. Later you get the ability to wildshape into one of a number of creatures: the popular options here are either a front line fighter or else a small flying creature who blasts the enemy with impunity. You also get to summon more creatures to fight for you. You get a different choice of spells to the Cleric, though they are similar. Clerics are better at healing, countering and buffing. Druids are better at blasting and battle field control.

[Kavurcen]

I'm going to be torn to bits for this, but monks are TONS of fun. I recommend decisive strike and lightning fists, plus carmandine so stats are a bit easier.

[Rubik]

I'm going to be torn to bits for this, but monks are TONS of fun. I recommend decisive strike and lightning fists, plus carmandine so stats are a bit easier.They're especially fun if you like making new characters, 'cuz they're REALLY easy to make useless, to the point where you can't do anything and won't want to play them anymore.

[Callista]

Choosing a class, you have to take some things into account.

First: What kind of game are you going to be playing? Are you playing with a bunch of newbies who don't optimize much, or are you playing with a bunch of role-players who like flavor and complexity (and would appreciate story-enhancing stuff like divination spells and interesting backstories), or a bunch of power gamers who like the challenge of character creation? Different strategy, depending on which type of group. Also, with large groups, you want to stay away from complex and time-consuming combat strategy, Leadership, companions/summons, and similar battlefield clutter.

Second: What are the other people in the group going to be playing? Do they need a source of arcane or divine magic? A high-HP or high-AC front-liner? A skillmonkey or party face?

Alignment is always a consideration. Don't play radically opposed alignments; it almost never ends well. If in doubt, go Neutral and let your alignment drift whichever way it will depending on how your character develops.

Third: What levels are you going to be playing? At level 1, a barbarian is very powerful; by level 15, he'd better have prestige-classed into something interesting or he'll be useless. Similarly, a level-1 wizard isn't very powerful, but by level 15 he's pretty much in god-mode, and useful only with other characters who are equally powerful--which means that you can play with sub-optimal but interesting wizard builds at level 15 if the other characters are weaker classes.

Anyway, pros and cons of the PHB classes, as I see them:

Barbarian, fighter: Barbarian has a higher damage output in the very early levels. A fighter has a lot of feats which you can use to customize his fighting style. Both become weaker the higher your level, and multiclassing or prestige classes are highly recommended. Fighter is a good class to dip into for the feats; pure fighter is low-powered but can be interesting depending on which feats you pick.

Paladin: Same power issues as the barbarian and fighter, with the added problem of being dependent on charisma and wisdom as well. However, paladins are more magic-resistant because of their increased saves, and Detect Evil makes a good enemy radar early on. Backup emergency healer, and you should find a way to channel the Turn undead into something useful. Good parties only, of course. And it never hurts to have a deity on your side.

Monk: You move fast, you hit fast, and you've got some cool flavor, but this is a low-powered class. Damage output is mediocre. Look into prestige classes. A great class for someone who's a fan of optimization, but is in a party of newbies or casual players and needs to keep his power level lower to be near the party average.

Wizard, sorcerer: Wizard has more flexibility and thus more power; sorcerer has a few more spell slots. Early on you will be weak; later you are among the most powerful classes in the game. However, playing these classes takes research and you have to know which spells will be most useful and how to use them. You will often be doing your damage indirectly, by preparing the battlefield so your allies can easily kill the enemy, by making your allies stronger or your enemies weaker. Arcane magic-users can really throw a monkey wrench in a DM's plans with things like teleportation, divination, and mind-control. Make sure your DM is prepared to deal with your magical shenanigans before you do anything too fancy.

Cleric, druid: Same basic strategy: Your magic and/or wildshape lets you buff yourself up and become a very powerful combatant. Clerics are all about spell selection; druids are all about which wildshape you pick. Both classes are about as powerful as a wizard, but somewhat more durable at low levels. And the cleric, like the paladin, has a deity on his side.

Rogue, bard: Skills and a bit of magic, either through use magic device or bardic magic. These classes are both very flexible and can do many different things, but are not particularly powerful. Rogues are weak to anything they can't sneak-attack, and it's important to plan for those times. Any good rogue will have a flanking buddy arrangement with a party member (or some other way to reliably sneak-attack things). Both rogues and bards have good skill lists. Bard doubles as a backup healer, and the bonuses to combat from bardic music are always appreciated by the rest of the party.

[ericgrau]

well im not new and i have gone the cleric route and never enjoyed it as i was just there to heal and thats NO fun at all lol. but book keeping is easy when i have most and can be done quick with the right tools. so im going to look into druid just would need some help into optimizing it so i dont completely suck with it.
Ya that's why you gotta look into what spells to take instead of pouring out a bunch of cures. It's similar for wizard.

[Curmudgeon]

The rogue can be quite fun.


is it pretty simple to use or not?

If you want simple, a Rogue is about the poorest choice possible. It's my favorite class, but I typically use 2 dozen books building a Rogue because the base class in the Player's Handbook has many weaknesses and WotC addressed most of those weaknesses, one at a time, in many supplements.

[Socratov]

well, i for one advocate teh bard as the newbie friendly class: they can do anything, you want a support? yes can do, you want melee yes can do, you watn a skillmonkey? yes can do, etc. You do need help however with the correct feats (throuhg either reading fora etc. or just asking for a decent bardbuild once you know what you want to do)

the playing itself is rather simple too, you only need to keep track of how long it is till your music wears off. For the rest it's pretty simple go with the flow

[Darth Stabber]

Cleric healbot is doing it wrong, seriously. It is significantly more efficient in terms of spells slots to prevent damage than to heal it. And wands of CLW or lesser vigor are cheap enough that by lvl6+ you can rely on them for all of your out of combat needs (saving you innumerable spellslots). Also unless you have an ACF that prevents you from converting, never ever prepare cure spells. Even without DMM persist cheese you are better off as a buffbot than healbot.

[sonofzeal]

well, i for one advocate teh bard as the newbie friendly class: they can do anything, you want a support? yes can do, you want melee yes can do, you watn a skillmonkey? yes can do, etc. You do need help however with the correct feats (throuhg either reading fora etc. or just asking for a decent bardbuild once you know what you want to do)

the playing itself is rather simple too, you only need to keep track of how long it is till your music wears off. For the rest it's pretty simple go with the flow
I disagree. Bard can do anything... but without much splatdiving, it's likely to be doing it poorly. Dangerously poorly, for the most part.

With light armor and few defensive spells/buffs and d6 HD, the Bard is not going to survive melee. With 3/4 BAB and restricted weapons list and piddly little bonuses from IC, they're not going to be doing much while they're there. They get very few spells per day, and the spells they get are lower level so the DCs usually struggle, a problem further exacerbated by the Bard's inherent MAD. And, because they get so few spells, they generally can't afford to be using them to buff the whole party the way a Cleric can. They do make good skillmonkeys, but even there the lack of Trapfinding hurts. However, they do admittedly excel at being the face of the party, and can usually be counted on to have the best social skills in any given group.

Bards can be good, but they're not newbie-friendly - they're not good out of the box except at skillcheck-based social interactions, which are highly campaign-dependent. You need heavy splatbook access (Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Word of Creation, Snowflake Wardance, Sublime Chord, etc) to really get them rolling. Once you do, hey, they're a great class with loads of potential that can excel at support, at melee, and at spellcasting.

But that's not the class we're given in the PHB. And that means the class isn't newbie-friendly.

[SowZ]

I disagree. Bard can do anything... but without much splatdiving, it's likely to be doing it poorly. Dangerously poorly, for the most part.

With light armor and few defensive spells/buffs and d6 HD, the Bard is not going to survive melee. With 3/4 BAB and restricted weapons list and piddly little bonuses from IC, they're not going to be doing much while they're there. They get very few spells per day, and the spells they get are lower level so the DCs usually struggle, a problem further exacerbated by the Bard's inherent MAD. And, because they get so few spells, they generally can't afford to be using them to buff the whole party the way a Cleric can. They do make good skillmonkeys, but even there the lack of Trapfinding hurts. However, they do admittedly excel at being the face of the party, and can usually be counted on to have the best social skills in any given group.

Bards can be good, but they're not newbie-friendly - they're not good out of the box except at skillcheck-based social interactions, which are highly campaign-dependent. You need heavy splatbook access (Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Word of Creation, Snowflake Wardance, Sublime Chord, etc) to really get them rolling. Once you do, hey, they're a great class with loads of potential that can excel at support, at melee, and at spellcasting.

But that's not the class we're given in the PHB. And that means the class isn't newbie-friendly.

I agree it is less newbie friendly then, say, a rogue or a druid or even a barbarian. But it is more newbie friendly then a wizard or even a fighter.

[Flickerdart]

I agree it is less newbie friendly then, say, a rogue
Nope. Rogue hits the ground worse off and needs tons of splat diving and WBLmancy not to fall further behind.


or a druid
Nope. Bards have a lot less baggage than Druids, so someone coming in won't be tempted to make a hippie elf with a stupid companion. The Bard is good at the things one would think a Bard is good at - singing, and getting people to agree with them through wit and magic.


But it is more newbie friendly then a wizard
Nope. Wizards are decently newbie friendly - if you screw up spell selection (which will make up the majority of your decisions, and which you get tons of), you're only a bag of gold away from a completely new set. A Bard gets to experiment with very few spells, and they're almost all for keeps.


or even a fighter.
In a newbie game, a Fighter is likely to perform much better than a Bard, because "I pick up a weapon and start hurting things" is a lot more obvious than anything the Bard does, and at low levels, is very much legitimate.

The Fighter and Wizard aren't the most straightforward classes, but they're excellent learning experiences. The Bard doesn't have this opportunity, because by default it doesn't do enough of anything.

[sonofzeal]

I agree it is less newbie friendly then, say, a rogue or a druid or even a barbarian. But it is more newbie friendly then a wizard or even a fighter.
I disagree.

There's two main measures of newbie-friendliness - rules-complexity, and difficult in making a viable character. Call it RC and D, for short.


Druid has a great D score, but an abysmal RC score. I'd put it fairly far down any list of newbie-friendly classes purely for that reason.

Fighter has a great RC score, and its D score really depends on the campaign; in a newbie-friendly game, even just Sword-and-Board with Weapon Spec is surprisingly viable. I DMed for one like that and was expecting disaster, but he pulled his weight. Not as much as the Sorcerer with Nauseating Breath, but more than the Soulbow. I'd put its D moderately good as a result; it's pretty easy to make a Fighter that at least performs its basic function decently.

Bard... kind of get shafted in both directions. Simply being a spellcaster adds a fair of complexity, but then you've got a whole lot of effort trying to get them... y'know, things to do in combat without failing horribly. Even the low-op Fighter knows what he's doing, he's hitting things with sharp things. The Bard is directionless; 3/4 BAB and martial weapons might tempt him to try the same, but it's far more doomed to failure than for the Fighter.

So I'd honestly rate Bard below Fighter for Newbie-Friendliness, and the Druid below both of them.

[Gavinfoxx]

yea thats what happens when everyone else just kinda goes off and does their own things after collaborating what was going to happen. i got screwed over those games.

Remember. As a Cleric, your job is to buff yourself and your party, and to kick ass in melee. Occasionally, if someone is about to go to -10, you heal them so they do not immediately die.

YOU ARE NOT A BANDAID. The party chips in for a Wand of Cure Light Wounds as soon as possible, and you / the bard / the druid / the ranger / the paladin uses that to heal people up to about full out of combat. Really, healing is a role for a 750 gp wand, NOT a character class...

[Ravens_cry]

@Gavinfoxx:
That really depends on the group, no?
In some, band-aid is an excellent description, and players will be puzzled and perhaps even peeved if you do not fulfil it.
Seriously, I've never being in a group where casting a healing spell in combat was not worth the effort.
Now, I know my experiences are not universal, but the same can be said of yours.

[Rubik]

@Gavinfoxx:
That really depends on the group, no?
In some, band-aid is an excellent description, and players will be puzzled and perhaps even peeved if you do not fulfil it.
Seriously, I've never being in a group where casting a healing spell in combat was not worth the effort.
Now, I know my experiences are not universal, but the same can be said of yours.If that role can be fulfilled by a 750 gp wand, why NOT let it do so?

[Ravens_cry]

If that role can be fulfilled by a 750 gp wand, why NOT let it do so?
Because, like I did when I first started out, they liked the idea of playing a class whose role was helping other people get better, to heal the sick, to cure the lame and the blind, even, Pelor willing, raise the dead?
How awesome is that?

[Rubik]

Because, like I did when I first started out, they liked the idea of playing a class whose role was helping other people get better, to heal the sick, to cure the lame and the blind, even, Pelor willing, raise the dead?
How awesome is that?As awesome as a wand.

And you can still do those things if you're a cleric.

With a wand.

[Ravens_cry]

As awesome as a wand.

And you can still do those things if you're a cleric.

With a wand.
Which costs money.
I'd rather do it because my character is buds with Palor/god of choice.
Any Rogue or Bard can use a wand.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's not the only way to play and have fun.

[ericgrau]

It's a measly 750 gp wand. It's cheaper than an entire character. You aren't saving money, you're wasting a character.

What you can do if you want a more focused healer is this:

Shield other to distribute damage. Later it combines even better with imbue with spell ability to give away shield other to further spread out damage and then you use mass cure spells for more efficient healing.
The spell heal is actually worth it.
The cure spells are worth it in emergencies only, and then only your highest level cures.
Never dump your ability to hit things. Open fights with attacks, not holding to heal, and never bother healing someone who doesn't need it badly. Combat actions are precious; don't blow them on cure lights. Some of the better mass buffs like prayer are worth it if you can hit enough targets, but single target buffs and even the weaker mass buffs (or few useful targets) are rarely worth it.
Thus ability score priority might look like: con (for shield other), str, wis, dex, int, cha. In an undead heavy campaign cha might be 4th or 5th, but it only helps so much for turning. Wis is 3rd since I assume you're not using spells with saves.
And, yes, you use a wand for between combat healing. Never sweat low cost items; your own spell slots are more valuable. Any leftover spell slots below your top 3 spell levels that weren't blown on hour/level buffs are ok to blow between battles, but again you're hardly saving any money so don't blow spell slots you need.

[Slipperychicken]

Which costs money, the value of which is greatly exceeded by the spell slots (and versatility thereof) one saves through its use.


Fixed that for 'ya. If you like blowing high-level cures, that's great. But remember: every spell you use on healing is one less to be used on problem-solving or holy arse-whooping.

[Ravens_cry]

Fixed that for 'ya. If you like blowing high-level cures, that's great. But remember: every spell you use on healing is one less to be used on problem-solving or holy arse-whooping.
No, no you did not. You changed it for the way you want to play.
But it's not the only fun way to play.

[ericgrau]

Valid: I want to play a healer and no one has any right to tell me not to.
Invalid: Wand of cure light wound charges are worth more than high level spell slots so you should blow high level spell slots instead for between combat healing.

I hope this clears up any miscommunication that seems to be happening. You don't even have to use the wand but that doesn't mean it's a great money saving idea to skip it.

[Ravens_cry]

That depends, is in-conflict healing viable in your campaign or not?

[Roguenewb]

Can I be that guy, and suggest Wilder? I know it's not in the PHB, but its in the core (kinda, SRD freebies anyway), and it has a ton of flavor, and comes as a kind of pre-built gish. Especially if you use it to go into the SRD Slayer, its a really solid option, and if you wanna go just a little farther afield, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a lets you pick up a couple of extra powers. Feat choice is fairly easy, basically, you either go Meta-Psionic/Containment/Med or you just take Expanded Knowledge over and over again.

[Flickerdart]

Wilder has actual class features you want to advance, so going into Slayer isn't a very good idea.

[Roguenewb]

Not past level 7 you don't. You go much higher than that and the enervation chance becomes terrible. Volatile mind is just a bonus feat for a good wilder, and the full BAB of the class more than makes up for the hits to Surging Euphoria.

[SowZ]

Nope. Rogue hits the ground worse off and needs tons of splat diving and WBLmancy not to fall further behind.


Nope. Bards have a lot less baggage than Druids, so someone coming in won't be tempted to make a hippie elf with a stupid companion. The Bard is good at the things one would think a Bard is good at - singing, and getting people to agree with them through wit and magic.


Nope. Wizards are decently newbie friendly - if you screw up spell selection (which will make up the majority of your decisions, and which you get tons of), you're only a bag of gold away from a completely new set. A Bard gets to experiment with very few spells, and they're almost all for keeps.


In a newbie game, a Fighter is likely to perform much better than a Bard, because "I pick up a weapon and start hurting things" is a lot more obvious than anything the Bard does, and at low levels, is very much legitimate.

The Fighter and Wizard aren't the most straightforward classes, but they're excellent learning experiences. The Bard doesn't have this opportunity, because by default it doesn't do enough of anything.

I can see where you are coming from, but in my experience new players have a difficult time with wizards because Vancian magic is usually weird/overly-complicated to them/low survivability without knowing what one is doing and they almost never have good feat selection for their fighter, which is vital. Feat chains and pre-reqs also should be considered with intentions to get to decent levels but newbies don't think like that.

I've seen new characters have tons of fun with rogues. I think they fit their role very well without any real optimization required. The idea that they do best on sneak attacks is pretty straightforward and they have enough skill points to just throw at whatever skills sound fun to them. So they end up having a lot of out of combat use which helps them grow in roleplaying better.

Maybe Druid isn't actually any better as far as pick up and play then Bard, partially because of the pre-mentioned Vancian thing, but I haven't ever seen a new player make a druid that didn't work. I still think the Bard is typically better for newer players than a fighter, same with Barbarian.


I disagree.

There's two main measures of newbie-friendliness - rules-complexity, and difficult in making a viable character. Call it RC and D, for short.


Druid has a great D score, but an abysmal RC score. I'd put it fairly far down any list of newbie-friendly classes purely for that reason.

Fighter has a great RC score, and its D score really depends on the campaign; in a newbie-friendly game, even just Sword-and-Board with Weapon Spec is surprisingly viable. I DMed for one like that and was expecting disaster, but he pulled his weight. Not as much as the Sorcerer with Nauseating Breath, but more than the Soulbow. I'd put its D moderately good as a result; it's pretty easy to make a Fighter that at least performs its basic function decently.

Bard... kind of get shafted in both directions. Simply being a spellcaster adds a fair of complexity, but then you've got a whole lot of effort trying to get them... y'know, things to do in combat without failing horribly. Even the low-op Fighter knows what he's doing, he's hitting things with sharp things. The Bard is directionless; 3/4 BAB and martial weapons might tempt him to try the same, but it's far more doomed to failure than for the Fighter.

So I'd honestly rate Bard below Fighter for Newbie-Friendliness, and the Druid below both of them.

I'll agree with you about the Druids, but I still think Bard is better for a lot of new players then fighter. As far as individual effectiveness goes, keep in mind Bards buff the whole party. It is kind of their thing. Plus they have skill points and new players seem to love skill points. It is a decent introduction to spellcasting and helps them gradually learn a lot of systems within the game and gives them enough abilities to keep them interested.

[Darth Stabber]

Not past level 7 you don't. You go much higher than that and the enervation chance becomes terrible. Volatile mind is just a bonus feat for a good wilder, and the full BAB of the class more than makes up for the hits to Surging Euphoria.

Educated ACF Wilders (aka the ACF that might as well be considered default) have an actual reason to stay single class, and I wouldn't fault anyone for sticking with it. Whereas volatile mind is almost completely useless, unless psionics completely replace a setting's arcane casters and even then it would be sketchy (1 discipline pays a little extra to affect you, woopty do). If you didn't pick up the ACF, then go ahead it's not a major thing to lose, but you are a dork for not doing it. Surging Euphoria is nice but I wouldn't stay with the class for it. If you are taking the gish route Slayer is gold, but if you are doing the mailman like route anarchic initiate or straight class is the way to go.