Is Alter Self any good for a Paladin?

[Larkas]

I am currently playing a Paladin variant described in Dragon Magazine #310, called the Avenger. It has a much nicer spell selection, such as Invisibility (which you can share with your animal companion, the avenger's analogue to the paladin's mount) and Alter Self at spell level 2, not to mention being Chaotic Good. The problem is, when Alter Self does come around, you're already level 8 at the very least, and stuck with a half-caster level, meaning you will be able to change into a 5HD creature only at level 10.

I never got to play around much with Alter Self before, as I always have to be either the brawn or the bard of the group, so I'm not really sure how it works. When I use it, do I get to keep my class levels and, hence, my class HD? If not, can I get any use of this spell short of helping me disguise myself at this level?

Also, do you have some advice on cool humanoid forms? I read somewhere that Troglodyte is a nice choice, I'm guessing because of it's +6 natural armor and 3 natural attacks, but are there any other options?

I'm not intent on optimizing stuff, but I don't want to suck completely either. Do you have any ideas on which feats I should select? I've been kicking some serious ass with the help of my animal minion, but my own damage output could seriously need some help.

[Urpriest]

You keep your class levels because all such spells work that way and because there's essentially nothing in the game that alters that. If you're confused about that, you may get some use out of reading the monster guide in my sig. Anyone who shapeshifts into monsters on a regular basis gets a lot of use out of knowing how monsters work.

Alter Self offers you a lot of excellent options for mobility and combat. It's one of the most powerful second level spells really. Here's a handbook that goes through some of the options. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)

[Larkas]

Thank you very much, Urpriest! Well, I guess this makes it into an AWESOME ability, even if the limit is only 5HD! I'm reading the stuff you pointed me to right now :)

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember your caster level -- what caster level do you have at this point??

[Urpriest]

Remember your caster level -- what caster level do you have at this point??

Eh, most of the nice forms are 1-3 HD anyway. Troglodytes are 2, Asabi are 3, Avariels are 1 and get you flight!

[Bard for Kicks]

You should play an outsider. Here is why.

Dwarf Ancestor in MM4 has 18 Nat Armor, large size (yay 10ft reach according to the stat block), and Dr10/Adamantine.

Just enchant your weapons/armor to fit you when you're a big scary dorf. Proceed to whack things with your fancy stick.

[Larkas]

You should play an outsider. Here is why.

Dwarf Ancestor in MM4 has 18 Nat Armor, large size (yay 10ft reach according to the stat block), and Dr10/Adamantine.

Just enchant your weapons/armor to fit you when you're a big scary dorf. Proceed to whack things with your fancy stick.

Yeah, that's not the case anymore, since the game already started, though it would really be optimal.

My DM will let me get the Half-celestial template, though, as per the the rules set here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) and in Malhavoc Press's Anger of Angels. It's for an entirely roleplaying reason, though, and certainly NOT optimal since I'll spend 4 levels NOT getting BAB progression, but it WILL net me the Outsider type, not to mention lots and lots of attributes bonus, which are certainly very nice. Add that to the Dwarf Ancestor and I think it won't be that bad :smallsmile:

Just to assert my previous issue, though, by keeping my class levels I DO get to add my class HD to the monster HD when using Alter Self, right? Just to make everything perfectly clear, the DM is a nice guy but might be a little nit-picky.

[ericgrau]

Since you keep your own level, ability scores and so on, it's good for all the special abilities listed in the guide on top of keeping your own abilities. Natural armor is especially handy for melee, though the movement forms have their uses too.

[Urpriest]

Just to assert my previous issue, though, by keeping my class levels I DO get to add my class HD to the monster HD when using Alter Self, right? Just to make everything perfectly clear, the DM is a nice guy but might be a little nit-picky.

You don't add them. The monster HD are only relevant when determining when you can take the monster's shape, nothing in the spell gives you anything else related to them. Again, you really need to read my monster guide.

[Larkas]

In general, a shapeshifting ability will tell you precisely what you do and do not get from it. If it doesn't say you get something, assume you don't get it. In particular, a shapeshifting ability will never give you the hit dice of the creature you are turning into, so you will never gain the features of its Racial Hit Dice, including its Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, etc. You don't gain its feats or skill points either.

Exactly what I needed. Thanks, Urpriest, and sorry for not reading it earlier :smallfrown: It's a GREAT handbook, by the way, thanks a lot for all the effort you put in it!

On a side note, I noticed that the Savage Progression I'm taking will give me the Outsider type in the first level. Sweet :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Exactly what I needed. Thanks, Urpriest, and sorry for not reading it earlier :smallfrown: It's a GREAT handbook, by the way, thanks a lot for all the effort you put in it!

On a side note, I noticed that the Savage Progression I'm taking will give me the Outsider type in the first level. Sweet :smallamused:

Depending on how much you want to annoy your DM, consider asking to only take the first level of said Savage Progression then. Some of the early web articles containing Savage Progressions say that you can take other levels in between. (Example on this page) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Some consider it kind of cheesy though, so take at your own risk.

[eggs]

Depending on how much you want to annoy your DM, consider asking to only take the first level of said Savage Progression then. Some of the early web articles containing Savage Progressions say that you can take other levels in between. (Example on this page) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Some consider it kind of cheesy though, so take at your own risk.
Why on earth would it be cheesy?
The rules that say what they do explicitly say that's how they work.
Maybe they're being confused with Monster Classes?

[Urpriest]

Why on earth would it be cheesy?
The rules that say what they do explicitly say that's how they work.
Maybe they're being confused with Monster Classes?

Part of the problem is that some people try to apply the rule to Monster Classes, yes, which is utterly unjustified and muddies things. In general though, the Savage Progressions weren't really thought out from the perspective that you could just take a few levels and leave the rest. Ghost 1 in particular is very nice if you don't have to fill out your build with Ghost 2-5.

Edit: In particular, the language they use to say you can skip levels implies that you're expected to take them later. The designers seem to have not considered the (quite obvious) argument that you could just delay those levels until level 100 or something.

[Larkas]

Depending on how much you want to annoy your DM, consider asking to only take the first level of said Savage Progression then. Some of the early web articles containing Savage Progressions say that you can take other levels in between. (Example on this page) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Some consider it kind of cheesy though, so take at your own risk.

Hmmm, I'll talk to him. Though he will probably allow it, it might pay to go easy at first, so I won't break his game and/or draw half the gameworld's hate :smallbiggrin: Specifically, I was thinking of getting one level of half-celestial and one level of Barbarian with the Spirit Lion totem variant. I really need that pounce, and I think that is the easiest way to get it.

[SilverLeaf167]

Slightly off-topic, but: remember to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane), if possible. It raises your effective caster level by 4, up to a maximum of your character level. It'd be quite useful for this kind of build.

[Larkas]

I've considered that, but it's not really all that great for this class. Either the spells have no impact from caster level, the caster level limit is too low or the increments in which the caster level impacts the spell are too great. Here's the spell list:

1st: Bless; Bless Water; Bless Weapon; Cure Light Wounds; Detect Poison; Disguise Self; Divine Favor; Endure Elements; Magic Stone; Magic Weapon; Mending; Protection from Evil; Protection from Law, Read Magic, Restoration, Lesser; Shield of Faith.

2nd: Align Weapon; Alter Self; Cat's Grace; Eagle's Splendor; Fox's Cunning; Invisibility; Make Whole; Misdirection; Resist Energy; Shield Other; Undetectable Alignment.

3rd: Cure Moderate Wounds; Dispel Magic; Flame Arrow; --Heal Mount--; Magic Circle against Evil; Magic Circle against Law; Magic Vestment; Magic Weapon, Greater; Nondetection, Obscure Object; --Remove Curse--.

4th: --Break Enchantment--; Cure Serious Wounds; Detect Scrying; Dispel Evil; Dispel Law; Freedom of Movement; Holy Sword; Invisibility, Greater; Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Stone Shape.

The list is already edited, since the original had errors (listing protection from evil twice, listing cure moderate wounds as both 2nd and 3rd level spells), and was missing some critical spells or spells that made no sense being removed from the paladin's spell list (a class that breaks slaves free and resists mind control, and that actually has break enchantment as a SLA a few times per week missing remove curse and break enchantment as real spells?); these last ones are between --.

A half-caster that casts as (CL/2)+4? Apparently very nice, but, as you can see by checking the spell list, the feat doesn't improve the spells enough to warrant losing a feat slot over it, I think =/

[eggs]

Slightly off-topic, but: remember to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane), if possible. It raises your effective caster level by 4, up to a maximum of your character level. It'd be quite useful for this kind of build.
I don't want to contradict your point, but I just want to point out that it's capped by Hit Dice, not Character level. Normally, that's not a difference that anyone ever needs to worry about, but the OP's using Savage Templates, which are one of the weird exceptions (they increase character level without affecting HD).

The raised character level also does some weird things like boost skill rank caps, increase effective BA from Skillful weapons, increase Initiator level and advance its own spell-likes without increasing Hit Dice.

EDIT:
I never got Dragon magazine. Is that spell list explicitly listed out, or is it the Paladin spell list with a few explicit changes?

[Larkas]

I don't want to contradict your point, but I just want to point out that it's capped by Hit Dice, not Character level. Normally, that's not a difference that anyone ever needs to worry about, but the OP's using Savage Templates, which are one of the weird exceptions (they increase character level without affecting HD).

The raised character level also does some weird things like boost skill rank caps, increase effective BA from Skillful weapons, increase Initiator level and advance its own spell-likes without increasing Hit Dice.

EDIT:
I never got Dragon magazine. Is that spell list explicitly listed out, or is it the Paladin spell list with a few explicit changes?

On the Savage Progression, if I read it correctly, it just adds to ECL, not real CL, just like a LA would. Therefore, no increased skill rank caps and other stuff. Put in other words, it increases your Effective Character Level, but your Character Level stays the same.

About the spell list, it is actually explicitly listed out. But if you compare the avenger's list to the paladin's list, you can see that the process is "take this out, add this, keep this". On the 1st level, for example, it is "take Create Water, Detect Undead, Protection from Chaos, Resistance and Virtue out, add Disguise Self, Magic Stone, Mending, Protection from Law, Shield of Faith and keep the rest".

EDIT: I've been fiddling with this build:

Avenger 10/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 1/Half-celestial Progression 1

1st - Power Attack
Human - Cleave
3rd - Improved Bull Rush
6th - Shock Trooper
9th - Leap Attack
12th - Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit

It's not a full build, as you can see, and picking Dungeon Crasher does not have any effect before Fighter 2, but the option is open. Put in Alter Self and Invisibility in that mess and I guess it will make for some very fun fights XD I might even go with the DM's plan and get Half-celestial Progression 4, get wings, and use Alter Self only when I need some serious Natural Armor to pump Shock Trooper! Not to mention it would certainly make the DM less angry for the type changing :smallsmile: This is not optimal, of course, but I guess it would be fun and somewhat strong. What do you think?

PS: Gah, accidentally deleted my previous response... Reposting :smallfrown:

[Urpriest]

Looks good. Decent Power Attack optimization, most of the charger essentials, AOO tricks at the later levels when charges get boring, and a fairly versatile set of spells. Still melee, but with limited access to flight from level 8 or so...all in all, for a lower-op game, should serve you well.

[Larkas]

Looks good. Decent Power Attack optimization, most of the charger essentials, AOO tricks at the later levels when charges get boring, and a fairly versatile set of spells. Still melee, but with limited access to flight from level 8 or so...all in all, for a lower-op game, should serve you well.

Nice, thanks a lot for all the input, Urpriest :smallsmile:

...Aaand I just noticed that Advespa is Large, has 7 NA AND a flight speed. Yeah, I think I'll save that for when the DM is REALLY trying to kill us :smallamused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Don't forget that Dungeoncrasher doesn't come online till level 2 and then agian at level 6.

[Acanous]

Unless you really want the extra couple dice, Dungeoncrasher at 2 usually does the job. Pushing to Fighter 6 for the increase seems a bit of a waste to me, but YMMV.

[Larkas]

I was looking at a Paladin handbook, maybe taking those fighter levels are not that necessary. An alternative build:

Avenger 11/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Half-celestial Progression X

1st - Power Attack
Human - Improved Bull Rush
3rd - Divine Might (@4th)
6th - Shock Trooper
9th - Leap Attack
12th - Travel Devotion
15th - Battle Blessing

If I take the full Progression, this is the end of it. If Robilar's Gambit could be taken as a Fighter feat, I could consider losing access to 4th level spells, but alas, that's not the case. I'm starting to be sure that the Progression is no good at all past level 1, but oh well. If at least it was compatible with level adjustment buyback... Yeah, THAT would be abusable :smallamused: I won't even present the option to the DM.

[Larkas]

I little more brainstorming: assuming a Nightstick-less environment, would DMM+Persist be worth it for use on Greater Invisibility?

[Urpriest]

I little more brainstorming: assuming a Nightstick-less environment, would DMM+Persist be worth it for use on Greater Invisibility?

Too many feats required. I don't really see you using Extend for much else, so it's four feats for day-long invisibility. At that level items or your party caster are a better source for that effect.

[Larkas]

Heck, you're right, three feats for a single day-long effect is not too cost-efficient, I guess :smallsmile: