Warblade Recovery, Who's Right?

[HMS Invincible]

My friends insist that a warblade can only recover his maneuvers by making a single attack, while I believed that a warblade can do a charge or full round attack to recover them. Who's right?

"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift
action, which must be immediately followed in the same
round with a melee attack
or using a standard
action to do nothing
else in the round (such
as executing a quick,
harmless fl ourish with
your weapon). You cannot
initiate a maneuver
or change your stance
while you are recovering
your expended
maneuvers, but you
can remain in a stance
in which you began
your turn."
Quoted from the book for reference.

[AmberVael]

"Followed by a melee attack."

Not a single melee attack, not a melee attack as a standard action, just a melee attack.

When performing a full attack action, do you perform a melee attack? If yes, then you qualify to recover your maneuvers.

In fact, it doesn't even say during your turn, just during the round. In theory, you could qualify with an attack of opportunity.

[Greyfeld85]

You're correct. Any time something happens on a "melee attack," it doesn't matter what sort of action is used to perform that attack. It could be a charge attack, a full attack, a single attack through a standard action, a maneuver that makes you deliver a melee attack, etc etc. (I would assume that the trip and follow up attack performed due to Improved Trip would work as well, as long as it's done on the same turn as your swift action)

Though it does have to be done "immediately" after the swift action, so you have to make sure you're in position to attack when you do it.

[Answerer]

You are. The only requirements for recovery are, A. you have burned the requisite Swift action, B. you make a melee attack during the round, and C. you do not change stances or initiate any maneuver during the round. If you cannot accomplish B., you are given the alternative option of burning a Standard doing nothing. But B. is separate from it's alternative option.

Note that there are options beyond Standard action attack, Full-Attack, and Charge. Any (non-maneuver) melee attack during the round will work. You could even do it with an attack of opportunity, if you wanted (and someone provoked from you in that round).

[navar100]

You're correct. Any time something happens on a "melee attack," it doesn't matter what sort of action is used to perform that attack. It could be a charge attack, a full attack, a single attack through a standard action, a maneuver that makes you deliver a melee attack, etc etc. (I would assume that the trip and follow up attack performed due to Improved Trip would work as well, as long as it's done on the same turn as your swift action)

Though it does have to be done "immediately" after the swift action, so you have to make sure you're in position to attack when you do it.

Technically true, but you can't use a maneuver the same round you recover, though you can benefit from whatever stance you're in.

[dsmiles]

Yeah. We've always played it as a full attack action (since if you're in range, why wouldn't you full attack?). But, really, any melee attack will do (except a maneuver, which is specifically disqualified).

[Greyfeld85]

Technically true, but you can't use a maneuver the same round you recover, though you can benefit from whatever stance you're in.

Well, I haven't read ToB as extensively as some. What page is that rule on?

[HMS Invincible]

Hmmm, they nitpick the "immediately" and "A melee attack" part. I think they read it as a singular attack, and immediately means that you can't delay it with any other actions. The first rules out full attacking, and the 2nd rules out charge/trip/sunder etc etc.

[Greyfeld85]

Hmmm, they nitpick the "immediately" and "A melee attack" part. I think they read it as a singular attack, and immediately means that you can't delay it with any other actions. The first rules out full attacking, and the 2nd rules out charge/trip/sunder etc etc.

Well, trip and sunder are melee attacks, so they can suck it as far as that's concerned. I would say that "immediately" does rule out charge attacks because it's the same wording as the "immediately" in Improved Trip. But that's just me.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

the problem does not exist

[DeAnno]

If you can perform a swift action in the middle of a charge (before you attack, after you move) it works. However this is a rather murky area of the rules. I'm inclined to say you can, but there is an FAQ entry somewhere that disagrees.

[AmberVael]

Hmmm, they nitpick the ... "A melee attack" part.

This is silly. Let me demonstrate why.


"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn."

So, you can't initiate a maneuver, as in one maneuver, but two? that's perfectly fine. Go for a strike and a boost (with the extra swift action obtained via Divine Impetus, clearly).

And if you have Dual Stance from Master of Nine or Warblade 20, well too bad for you! You only get a stance, buddy! Drop one!

[Answerer]

Also, nothing about the sentence implies that there is an limit on the attacks, only that a melee attack is necessary for recovery. More is sufficient but not necessary.

The "immediate" in there is awkward, though, and probably does disqualify things like charge and attacks of opportunity.

[Jasdoif]

If you can perform a swift action in the middle of a charge (before you attack, after you move) it works. However this is a rather murky area of the rules. I'm inclined to say you can, but there is an FAQ entry somewhere that disagrees.I think it's reasonable to expect being able to take a swift action in the middle of a charge.

Rapid Reload allows a hand/light crossbow (which must be reloaded for each shot) to be reloaded as a free action, and the feat mentions it allows such crossbows to be fired repeatedly in a full attack (which is a full round action). So there's precedent for taking free actions in the middle of a full-round action, and you can take a swift action any time you could normally take a free action during your turn. So I don't see why you couldn't take the swift action to recover maneuvers immediately prior to making the melee attack at the end of a charge.

(And I was unable to locate such a FAQ entry as you mentioned.)

[Rejusu]

A full attack would work, but I think the "immediately" part might disqualify you from charging as technically you charge and then make your melee attack. But as mentioned it might be possible to take that swift action before the melee attack but after the charge.

It's definitely not possible to do it as an AoO though. Immediate actions and swift actions share a limit (1 per round of either), but they're not the same. If something uses a swift action then you can't use an immediate action for it and vice versa. Swift actions can only be taken on your turn so you can only recover manoeuvres on your turn.

[AmberVael]

A full attack would work, but I think the "immediately" part might disqualify you from charging as technically you charge and then make your melee attack. But as mentioned it might be possible to take that swift action before the melee attack but after the charge.

It's definitely not possible to do it as an AoO though. Immediate actions and swift actions share a limit (1 per round of either), but they're not the same. If something uses a swift action then you can't use an immediate action for it and vice versa. Swift actions can only be taken on your turn so you can only recover manoeuvres on your turn.

It's not necessary to use an immediate action.

The way I picture it would be as follows:

1) Take whatever full-round action you want (or combination of move/standard, whatever).
2) Swift action for maneuver recovery.
3) Your turn ends.
4) Someone does something stupid, like move away from you while you've got reach, and provokes an AoO.
5) You take your AoO, which counts as a melee attack.
6) Maneuvers recovered.

The problem with the scenario, of course, is the 'immediately' part. If you're interpreting that as literally the very next thing that comes up in the round, you need someone to provoke an AoO from you right after your turn ends. As AoOs are an interrupt, it would be the first thing to resolve since your turn ended, but people might still nitpick about it.

On the other hand, there are ways to get an AoO on your own turn. If you can activate one of those somehow, you could probably qualify a lot more cleanly.

Still, it'd be kind of a mess and hard to pull off, way too easily disrupted. It's not the strategy I'd go for, but in the right situation, I think it would be possible.

[Rejusu]

I think at that point though we're straining the limits of what's realistically possible, easier to just flat out state you can't do it as an AoO and leave it at that.

I also think the "immediately" part would disqualify you doing it after your turn has ended too. So it's a bit of a moot point.

[Talya]

Since "immediately" is not game terminology, you're stuck trying to interpret what they meant. To confuse matters further, it's helpful to remember that everyone's actions in a round, no matter how many of them there are in sequence, take place during the same six seconds.

[Keneth]

The immediately part is irrelevant for the type of action performed since you can use a swift action just before any attack on your turn. If you're charging, you can move to your target, use a swift action for recovery and perform the attack. Hell, you can perform a full attack and just before your last attack, take a 5-foot step to the side, give your target the finger, tell them to shove off, use a swift action, and make the final attack to recover your maneuvers. The immediately part is important however in order to limit you to your own round. It could have just as well said "followed by a melee attack before the end of your round", but that would just sound weird, now wouldn't it?

[JBento]

If you're charging, you can move to your target, use a swift action for recovery and perform the attack.

No you can't. Swift actions can't interrupt other actions, and a charge is a full round actions.


Hell, you can perform a full attack and just before your last attack, take a 5-foot step to the side, give your target the finger, tell them to shove off, use a swift action, and make the final attack to recover your maneuvers.

No you can't. Once you decide to turn your attack action into a full-attack action, you can't shove a swift action in the middle of the attacks.

To actually answer the OP: You can't do it on a charge (as the attack wouldn't come "immediately" after the swift action), but the full attack is kosher.

[Darrin]

No you can't. Swift actions can't interrupt other actions, and a charge is a full round actions.

No you can't. Once you decide to turn your attack action into a full-attack action, you can't shove a swift action in the middle of the attacks.

To actually answer the OP: You can't do it on a charge (as the attack wouldn't come "immediately" after the swift action), but the full attack is kosher.

This isn't correct. A 5' step is a "non-action", and can happen in between attacks, as per the combat rules on page 143 of the PHB. Free actions, such as dropping a weapon, drawing ammunition, or quick-drawing a new weapon, can be made in-between attacks on a full-round attack.

A swift action is treated as a free action in all ways except that it can only be done once per turn. Thus, you can use a swift action during a full-round action, even between attacks or during a charge.

[Answerer]

I'm inclined to think that swift-actions-whenever-you-like-on-your-turn is interesting and therefore agree with that interpretation.

But I would point out that time is not continuous but discrete within D&D combat. On some level, you cannot act during another action because it's indivisible: there is "before" and "after," but no "during."

Which is sort of messed up by the existence of readied actions and immediate actions, but those could be argued as specific trumping general.

[JoshuaZ]

"Followed by a melee attack."

Not a single melee attack, not a melee attack as a standard action, just a melee attack.

When performing a full attack action, do you perform a melee attack? If yes, then you qualify to recover your maneuvers.

In fact, it doesn't even say during your turn, just during the round. In theory, you could qualify with an attack of opportunity.

Other party member exits a square you threaten. *Whack!* "What was that for?" "I needed to recover my maneuvers."

[Hiro Protagonest]

Other party member exits a square you threaten. *Whack!* "What was that for?" "I needed to recover my maneuvers."

Except you can't perform a swift action when it's not your turn.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.