Voldur: Half-elf, half-orc (3.5) If you read it, you'll want to play it. Promise.

[Empedocles]

The Voldur
http://i.imgur.com/OhkJZ.jpg

Voldur are an incredibly rare hybrid race born of an (often unwilling) union between an orc and an elf. They are a strangely beautiful race, both graceful and strong, yet completely alien.

Personality: Voldur are incredibly remote, lost in their own conflicting thoughts. When threatened, they lash out incredibly violently although their emotions are still well concealed.

Physical Description: Voldur are quite tall, usually standing between 6 foot 3 to 6 foot 9, and are almost always remarkably well muscled. They combine the ferocious features of an orc with the natural beauty of an elf and have completely pupilless, empty eyes. This, more than anything else, makes people suspicious of the voldur. Some voldur have a slightly green tint to their skin or slight tusks, depending on who their orcish ancestor was. Those voldur are the exception, not the rule though.

Relations: Voldur are almost universally misunderstood and generally hated. Orcs hate them for the elves in them, elves hate them for the orcs in them, and other races hate them, for they see them as abominations.

Alignment: The voldur's detached personality means that almost all of them are neutral. Some, shunned by society, turn vicious and become evil, while others strive to be understood and become paragons of good.

Voldur Lands: The voldur have no homeland, and they are never welcome in the lands of either of their parent races. Therefore, most wander.

Religion: Many voldur blame the gods for what they see as their own abominable birth, and refuse to worship them or even acknowledge them. Voldur clerics are incredibly rare.

Language: Voldur are generally fluent in whatever languages they encounter most while traveling, which almost always includes common.

Names: Voldur names generally combine an element of elvish grace with orc roughness. They usually only have first names, since there really aren't any "elf and orc" families for them to attribute surnames to.

Male Names: Elkar, Skornhel, Volskan, and Ketheryl.

Female Names: Velandra, Kajyar, Thelka, and Merrivun.

Adventurers: Voldur adventurers adventure to find a place where they are accepted and more directly, to take out the incredible amounts of aggression they possess.

Voldur Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Voldur are as graceful as elves and almost as strong as orcs, but their detachment makes it both hard for them to notice things and pay attention, and hard for people to really like them.
Medium. As medium creatures, voldur have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Voldur base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A voldur can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Steel Wind: A voldur can use the steel wind maneuver as a warblade with levels equal to his HD. This means that, as standard action, the voldur can make two attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but against two different foes that he threatens. The voldur can recover this maneuver (gain the ability to use it again) as a move action.
Elven and Orcish Blood: For all effects related to a race, a voldur is considered both an elf and an orc.
A voldur gains a +2 racial bonus on all Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks.
Favored Class: Warblade. If you aren't playing with Tome of Battle in your campaign, change its favored class to Ranger.

[Empedocles]

Voldur Paragon

The voldur paragon exemplifies the wandering warrior, distant but beautiful in his own right, and incredibly deadly.

Adventures: A voldur paragon adventures to find a homeland, to find friends, and to prove himself to the races that scorn him.

Characteristics: The voldur paragon is a deadly combatant, but for ranged combat and up close.

Alignment: Most voldur paragons are neutral.

Religion: Few voldur paragons worship deities, as they see themselves as having been abandoned by them.

Background: Voldur paragons are the voldur who strive to better themselves beyond what the rest of the world has come to see them as.

Races: Voldur only, obviously.

Other Classes: Voldur paragons have trouble relating to other classes simply because voldur are bad at relating to people in general.

Role: The voldur paragon is a front line combatant, although he can be deadly with a bow as well.

Adaptation: Whatever role the voldur race fills in your campaign setting is the role the voldur paragon will fill

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Voldur Paragons have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Strength and dexterity are the voldur's most important abilities, strength because he likes to deal damage, and dexterity because he can't wear medium or heavy armor.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Age: As fighter.
Starting Gold: As fighter.

Class Skills
The Voldur paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Tumble.

Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Voldur Paragon
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Divided Ancestry, Darkvision

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Hybrid Vigor

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Ability Boost[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Voldur paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (but not tower shields).

Divided Ancestry (Ex): Unlike other racial paragons, voldurs can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a voldur paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or orc paragon levels (but not both).

Darkvision: At 1st level the voldur paragon gains darkvision 60 feet.

Hybrid Vigor: At 2nd level the voldur gains the elve's immunity to magic sleep. In addition he gets a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against Daze, Exhaustion, Fatigue, Paralysis, and Stunning.

Ability Boost: At 3rd level the voldur grows into the full power of his orc ancestors, gaining an additional +2 bonus to strength or dexterity (his choice).

[ScrambledBrains]

Not that I don't like this race, cause quite frankly I think it's awesome, but why did you give it the inferior low-light vision rather than the superior darkvision?

[Talkan]

Wait a second.... This looks very familiar..... And yet.... Better.... Haha wow this looks fantastic! I don't really know how to improve this, but I really like this. I like this better than the idea I had, but I mostly just wanted to say that I think that you've done a fantastic job with this!

[Empedocles]

Not that I don't like this class, cause quite frankly I think it's awesome, but why did you give it the inferior low-light vision rather than the superior darkvision?

I actually thought about that longer than anything else, and it's pretty simple. The elf has low light vision. The half-elf has low light vision. The half-orc has low light vision. The orc has darkvision. Looking at that, it seemed like a good idea to make it low light vision instead. Also, this race is on the upper end of LA 0, so I thought I'd have a small little balancer thrown in.

Thanks for the compliment also! I personally really like this...total badass :smallbiggrin:

[ScrambledBrains]

I actually thought about that longer than anything else, and it's pretty simple. The elf has low light vision. The half-elf has low light vision. The half-orc has low light vision. The orc has darkvision. Looking at that, it seemed like a good idea to make it low light vision instead. Also, this race is on the upper end of LA 0, so I thought I'd have a small little balancer thrown in.

Thanks for the compliment also! I personally really like this...total badass :smallbiggrin:

Actually, the half-orc gets darkvision, though I understand your reasoning.

Otherwise, I like! Good to have a orc-ish race that doesn't have an int penalty. :smallsmile:

[Empedocles]

Wait a second.... This looks very familiar..... And yet.... Better.... Haha wow this looks fantastic! I don't really know how to improve this, but I really like this. I like this better than the idea I had, but I mostly just wanted to say that I think that you've done a fantastic job with this!

Thanks! Good to have homebrew that gets positive feedback :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Actually, the half-orc gets darkvision, though I understand your reasoning.

Otherwise, I like! Good to have a orc-ish race that doesn't have an int penalty. :smallsmile:

He does? Ah well, I'd like to leave it at low light vision, although I am tempted to change it because they have those pupilless eyes...

In any case, I appreciate it :smallsmile:

[Ziegander]

This is super-awesome, man. Very nice job, both in fluff and mechanics.

[Empedocles]

Wow man thanks! Now I feel like I should make more races and less base classes...

[Ziegander]

Wow man thanks! Now I feel like I should make more races and less base classes...

All I know is that I immediately want to play one. The great thing is, you can rest assured that you've made a great race when a Human is still almost always "better," but after looking at your race players immediately want to play it. I'd say that this is comparable with Dwarves, and Dwarves are really good, and yet not as powerful/useful overall as Humans, so it's definitely within an acceptable power range.

Also, it's good to see that someone agrees with me that Whirlwind Attack isn't a level 6+ effect. :)

[Empedocles]

Whirlwind attack is all flavor even as a feat for fighters IMO.

As for making this really playable...thanks! The positive feedback on this makes me want to do more homebrew (I was getting kind of discouraged since I haven't gotten many responses on a lot of it :smallfrown:)

Feel free to play one though :smallwink:

[Empedocles]

how would you guys feel about a base class that revolves around the sort of wandering, lonely warrior the voldur represents?

[Lord_Gareth]

how would you guys feel about a base class that revolves around the sort of wandering, lonely warrior the voldur represents?

I'd say its too narrow a concept for a base class and could be a five-level PrC instead.

[Ziegander]

Wandering, lonely warrior? Sounds like a Ranger to me.

[Empedocles]

I'd say its too narrow a concept for a base class and could be a five-level PrC instead.

...

I hate PrCs. Ah well, scratch that idea :smallannoyed:

[Empedocles]

Wandering, lonely warrior? Sounds like a Ranger to me.

I dunno, had some ideas, mixing the Gunslinger (Stephen King dark tower series) archetype with the class features of a barbarian and paladin. Bad idea though.

[Empedocles]

Bummmmpppppppp.

[Ziegander]

I think for the Paragon class you should replace the fighter bonus feat gained at 2nd level for something more elvish. Not sure what right now... I have an idea. Give it a class feature called Hybrid Vigor (Ex) which grants it elvish immunity to magic sleep effects and a +2 bonus vs Daze, Exhaustion, Fatigue, Paralysis, and Stunning?

EDIT: Also, the Voldur Paragon needs to have its proficiencies listed.

[Empedocles]

I think for the Paragon class you should replace the fighter bonus feat gained at 2nd level for something more elvish. Not sure what right now... I have an idea. Give it a class feature called Hybrid Vigor (Ex) which grants it elvish immunity to magic sleep effects and a +2 bonus vs Daze, Exhaustion, Fatigue, Paralysis, and Stunning?

Interesting... I like it! I'll put that in.

[Madara]

...

I hate PrCs. Ah well, scratch that idea :smallannoyed:

This sir is something I must ask you about. Why, per se, do you hate PrCs?

[Empedocles]

This sir is something I must ask you about. Why, per se, do you hate PrCs?

It's nothing really about individual PrCs, and quite frankly I don't have a reason. Just in general, they bug me.

The biggest issue I have with them that might sort of make sense is the way they dominated several supplements that should've had about 6 base classes, but instead just made 1-3 and then used PrCs.

For example, the ToB only had 3 base classes, which basically replaced the fighter, paladin, and sort-of the rogue (spellsage is hard to fit into a PHB role, but the closest thing is the rogue IMO) and then instead of making a barbarian-esque PrC they make the Tiger Claw PrC (I can't remember the name at the moment). Instead of making a very versatile class with access to all 9 disciplines they make the Master of the Nine.

Complete Warrior could've been an amazing supplement. They could've created several options for alternative fighters, and brought them up to Tier 3. Instead we get the swashbuckler and the Tier 6 samurai. And a bunch of PrCs.

Tome of Magic had 3 base classes for an entire system of magic. For shadowcasting, where's the shadowy warrior, like a shadowcasting ranger equivalent? Oh. He's a PrC.

[Ziegander]

Interesting... I like it! I'll put that in.

Make sure to specify that it's a racial bonus to saving throws. I forgot to specify that myself.

EDIT: And the Paragon is still missing it's weapon and armor proficiencies.

[Madara]

I understand, I enjoy PrCs because they allow for a good deal of customization. While Base 20 may be viable, I like having something to set me aside as different, even on paper.

[Lord_Gareth]

Thing is, mah brotha, base classes are supposed to be broad, not narrow. A base class should be able to represent a wide variety of concepts, which is why from this perspective Barbarian is a bad thing to have as a base class whereas Fighter is a good one (the executions, obviously, are the exact opposite). PrC's are how you take that something broad and turn it into something narrow. The shadowy warrior being a PrC is a good thing (the execution is, again, another thing). "Wandering loner" is a PrC-worthy concept, not a base-class worthy one, just like "uses a katana" was a terrible idea for an entire base class. Y'know?

[Empedocles]

Thing is, mah brotha, base classes are supposed to be broad, not narrow. A base class should be able to represent a wide variety of concepts, which is why from this perspective Barbarian is a bad thing to have as a base class whereas Fighter is a good one (the executions, obviously, are the exact opposite). PrC's are how you take that something broad and turn it into something narrow. The shadowy warrior being a PrC is a good thing (the execution is, again, another thing). "Wandering loner" is a PrC-worthy concept, not a base-class worthy one, just like "uses a katana" was a terrible idea for an entire base class. Y'know?

See, I disagree with the basic idea that base classes should be broad. The PHB itself goes back on itself when it says that. If it were really staying true to the idea of broad classes, it would use the UA generic classes or just a wizard, rogue, fighter, and cleric. Instead it has 11 base classes.

Then look at the supplements. CW has a hexblade base class, which is a fighter who uses curses, and then PrCs like "cavalier," "dark hunter," "hunter of the dead," "nature's warrior," "ravager," and "war chanter." A hexblade is a lot more specific than a dark hunter.

Moving on to supplements that were published farther into 3.5's reign, Heroes of Horror has a base class that is essentially a specialized wizard. With bonuses. Does that not sound like a PrC to you? And then it has, pages later, a "fiend blooded," who (and I quote) is defined as follows: "...the mortal descendants of such a union [a fiendish one] occasionally display a natural talent for the arcane arts." That is the oh-so-specific premise for the PrC. It's actually less specific than the dread necromancer, which is (again, quoting) "a practitioner of vile and forbidden arts, the dread necromancer roots about in graveyards, searching out smoldering components for her obscene spells. She calls upon restless, tormented spirits of the dead, seeking their arcane secrets."

Now (after the fact) I do agree that the idea of a base class based (forgive the lame and unintentional pun) on the voldur was a bad idea :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

WotC being a bunch of incompetent freakmonkies is not a great thing to hold up as precedent, though. They didn't know their own game well enough to design for it - you do, so you should strive to exceed their example, yes?

[Empedocles]

WotC being a bunch of incompetent freakmonkies is not a great thing to hold up as precedent, though. They didn't know their own game well enough to design for it - you do, so you should strive to exceed their example, yes?

True enough :smallwink:

Despite that...still not liking the PrCs. I do make exceptions for organizations and racial things though, and I like a few of the DMG PRCs (archmage, blackguard, mystic theurge, and assassin).

[Madara]

Moving on to supplements that were published farther into 3.5's reign, Heroes of Horror has a base class that is essentially a specialized wizard. With bonuses. Does that not sound like a PrC to you? And then it has, pages later, a "fiend blooded," who (and I quote) is defined as follows: "...the mortal descendants of such a union [a fiendish one] occasionally display a natural talent for the arcane arts." That is the oh-so-specific premise for the PrC. It's actually less specific than the dread necromancer, which is (again, quoting) "a practitioner of vile and forbidden arts, the dread necromancer roots about in graveyards, searching out smoldering components for her obscene spells. She calls upon restless, tormented spirits of the dead, seeking their arcane secrets."

Well, I think the specific casters were for the purpose of balance. That said, it may not seem like it, but the DN is not as much of a PrC-type class as you think. It does three things,
1. Casts draining and weakening spells
2. Creates and controls undead
3. Becomes undead and acts in melee

Each one of these concepts can(and does) have a PrC, but together they are a base class. Just like this

A fighter decides to be a tripper, his base class allows him to do that, but if he goes into exotic weapons master, then he can become a spiked-chain tripping master.

That's the difference between base and PrCs. Also, PrCs are much more Dip friendly, which is why I like them

[Empedocles]

Well, I think the specific casters were for the purpose of balance. That said, it may not seem like it, but the DN is not as much of a PrC-type class as you think. It does three things,
1. Casts draining and weakening spells
2. Creates and controls undead
3. Becomes undead and acts in melee

Each one of these concepts can(and does) have a PrC, but together they are a base class. Just like this

A fighter decides to be a tripper, his base class allows him to do that, but if he goes into exotic weapons master, then he can become a spiked-chain tripping master.

That's the difference between base and PrCs. Also, PrCs are much more Dip friendly, which is why I like them

A spiked chain tripper could also be in a weapon master base class, no? This has been done by 3rd party publishers before, and generally comes out quite nicely.

[Madara]

A spiked chain tripper could also be in a weapon master base class, no? This has been done by 3rd party publishers before, and generally comes out quite nicely.

Spending 20 levels mastering one weapon? That base class lacks the flexibility that makes it a base class.

[Empedocles]

Spending 20 levels mastering one weapon? That base class lacks the flexibility that makes it a base class.

It would learn tons of crazy skills with said weapon. And taking 10 levels to master one weapon (10 level PrC, presumably) with the level 5 minimum entry is still 15 levels...don't see how that's any better then 20...

[Lord_Gareth]

It would learn tons of crazy skills with said weapon. And taking 10 levels to master one weapon (10 level PrC, presumably) with the level 5 minimum entry is still 15 levels...don't see how that's any better then 20...

Because, again, a PrC is supposed to take something that is broad and turn it into something narrow (also, any weapon mastering PrC should be five levels MAX). A base class is supposed to be able to carry a larger number of concepts than just one - a PrC does not have to. Cavalier, for example, is a Mounted Fighter. That's all it is. It's a narrowing of the Fighter concept to only involve Being On a Mount. A twenty-level "Weapon Master" class is a really narrow concept, whereas the /idea/ behind Fighter (realized with Warblade) is "master of warfare/combat", which entails much more. "Weapon Master" refines that to a narrower point.

[F0X7713]

Well, In other news...

Your race is AMAZING!! And I plan to use it in many of my future campaigns! However... I am having a hard time picturing a female (For I know a few girls who would be quite interested in playing with this race XP).

[Empedocles]

Glad you like it :smallsmile: I'm actually having trouble picturing a female too...this is art I actually used for my half-orc fix (see my signature. It's the artwork for my paragon class, and if you liked this it's probably worth your time) but it's about as close as I can find to how I picture a female half-elf orc...
http://www.mortalonline.com/files/conceptart/FemaleHalfOrc.jpg

[LrdoftheRngs]

This is a really great race, and I like the feel and concept of it a lot. Keep on homebrewing, you're churning out some great stuff!

[Empedocles]

This is a really great race, and I like the feel and concept of it a lot. Keep on homebrewing, you're churning out some great stuff!

Thanks :smallsmile: Appreciate it

[danzibr]

how would you guys feel about a base class that revolves around the sort of wandering, lonely warrior the voldur represents?
I'd like to see it.

Thing is, mah brotha, base classes are supposed to be broad, not narrow. A base class should be able to represent a wide variety of concepts, which is why from this perspective Barbarian is a bad thing to have as a base class whereas Fighter is a good one (the executions, obviously, are the exact opposite). PrC's are how you take that something broad and turn it into something narrow. The shadowy warrior being a PrC is a good thing (the execution is, again, another thing). "Wandering loner" is a PrC-worthy concept, not a base-class worthy one, just like "uses a katana" was a terrible idea for an entire base class. Y'know?
I also disagree with this. I mean, even *if* a base class really is supposed to do this, and prestige classes are supposed to specialize something (say like a Druid, which can shapechange, cast and have an animal companion taking Master of Many Forms), that's not how 3.5 is, not really.

Spending 20 levels mastering one weapon? That base class lacks the flexibility that makes it a base class.
Not all base classes are flexible. Soulknife takes 20 levels and they don't even fully master their weapon (and yeah, they can split it into two weapon, et cetera). And you can respond with, "Well, Soulknife sucks," but it still is an official base class.

[Empedocles]

I'd like to see it.

I also disagree with this. I mean, even *if* a base class really is supposed to do this, and prestige classes are supposed to specialize something (say like a Druid, which can shapechange, cast and have an animal companion taking Master of Many Forms), that's not how 3.5 is, not really.

Not all base classes are flexible. Soulknife takes 20 levels and they don't even fully master their weapon (and yeah, they can split it into two weapon, et cetera). And you can respond with, "Well, Soulknife sucks," but it still is an official base class.

Exactly. WotC failed to really keep the base classes broad enough to justify as many PrCs as they have. You can say we should strive to exceed their example but I think that keeping many base classes fairly specific, if still versatile, is better than making a "ass-kicker" base class with the "big and strong ass-kicker," "fast ass-kicker," "ass-kicker with a shield," and ass-kicker with a magic sword" PrCs. Each of those could represent a base class if the mechanics of the class were kept versatile.

[Lord_Gareth]

That line of reasoning is the reason Soulknife (T5), Monk (T6) and the CWar Samurai (T6) exist. Guess what they all have in common? Being really, really specific (hell, CSamuWHY is literally 'I use a katana', the class). Higher-tier classes tend to be specific.

[Empedocles]

That line of reasoning is the reason Soulknife (T5), Monk (T6) and the CWar Samurai (T6) exist. Guess what they all have in common? Being really, really specific (hell, CSamuWHY is literally 'I use a katana', the class). Higher-tier classes tend to be specific.

Dread necromancer? Lurker? Shugenja? Nightstalker? Totemist? Dragonfire Adept? Archivist????

And anyways, having a low Tier isn't necessarily something to strive for. I'd rather have been the one to design the dread necromancer then the guy who thought of the wizard...

[Lord_Gareth]

Dread necromancer? Lurker? Shugenja? Nightstalker? Totemist? Dragonfire Adept? Archivist????

Many of these classes are mid-to-high tier. Lemme break this down for you:

Dread Necromancer - I manipulate the forces of life and death. Broad-based concept, yes? It only seems narrow in comparison to Wizard.

Lurker - I use psychic powers to augment stealth. Very narrow concept, and last I checked Lurker was T4 to T5 and also not terribly popular.

Shugenja - By mastering the elements, I come to command them. Very much like a Cleric, Shugenjas are a divine caster. Unlike a Cleric, they cast their spells through contemplation. Though they have an elemental theme, they've got a very broad power base, because the paradigm that they work from is that everything is composed of the elements they manipulate. T2 last I checked, and their base is pretty broad.

Nightstalker - You've got me, I don't even know this one.

Totemist - I unleash the power of the soul within to emulate the great and magical beasts of nature. Kinda specialized, but also kinda broad. It's a nice niche in which to reside where you've got a clear specialty, but theoretical application outside of that nice. T3 last I checked.

Dragonfire Adept - Not terribly familiar with the class, but the concept of, I channel the power of dragons in a world where dragons can be sorcerers, psychics, freak-assed chess masters, vampires(!) and even demons as well as dragons sounds pretty broad to me.

Archivist - Why'd you even bring this one up? I gain the power of the divine through study and discipline is exactly as broad as Wizard.

The class you're proposing isn't really a Wizard -> Dread Necro conversion - it's more like a Ranger -> Fighter.

[Empedocles]

Many of these classes are mid-to-high tier. Lemme break this down for you:

Dread Necromancer - I manipulate the forces of life and death. Broad-based concept, yes? It only seems narrow in comparison to Wizard.

Lurker - I use psychic powers to augment stealth. Very narrow concept, and last I checked Lurker was T4 to T5 and also not terribly popular.

Shugenja - By mastering the elements, I come to command them. Very much like a Cleric, Shugenjas are a divine caster. Unlike a Cleric, they cast their spells through contemplation. Though they have an elemental theme, they've got a very broad power base, because the paradigm that they work from is that everything is composed of the elements they manipulate. T2 last I checked, and their base is pretty broad.

Nightstalker - You've got me, I don't even know this one.

Totemist - I unleash the power of the soul within to emulate the great and magical beasts of nature. Kinda specialized, but also kinda broad. It's a nice niche in which to reside where you've got a clear specialty, but theoretical application outside of that nice. T3 last I checked.

Dragonfire Adept - Not terribly familiar with the class, but the concept of, I channel the power of dragons in a world where dragons can be sorcerers, psychics, freak-assed chess masters, vampires(!) and even demons as well as dragons sounds pretty broad to me.

Archivist - Why'd you even bring this one up? I gain the power of the divine through study and discipline is exactly as broad as Wizard.

The class you're proposing isn't really a Wizard -> Dread Necro conversion - it's more like a Ranger -> Fighter.

First of all, I admitted the class I was proposing was probably a bad idea...

The nightstalker is a spellcasting rogue whose main purpose is to communicate with undead. It's ridiculously specialized, but mechanically has a broad range of abilities. And it's probably Tier 2. (If you're interested it's from the Races of Ansalon supplement.)

Saying that the Dread Necromancer "manipulates the forces of life and death" is A)still a fairly specific statement and B)is like saying the Blackguard PrC is a character who uses the power of evil. It's obviously broad if you put it in those terms, but in practice it's quite specific flavor wise (not necessarily specific mechanically).

You should really read the dragonfire adept more closely. It's an extremely specific class that is specific theme wise and specific mechanically (it can really only use a breath weapon).

I brought up the archivist because the flavor reads more like a wizard who has discovered divine magic. A character who worships gods but receives arcane spells could be a PrC or a base class no?

Oh, and the shugenja's essential base is broad...until you factor in that over half its spells are from a single element and it can't even learn spells from the opposed element. Really, the shugenja is just an elemental mage with some extra spells.

[ArkenBrony]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

[Lord_Gareth]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

I do have to agree with this sentiment - I like the race thing. I just kinda got stuck on the class design bit ^_^

[Empedocles]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

Thanks a ton :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


I do have to agree with this sentiment - I like the race thing. I just kinda got stuck on the class design bit ^_^

I think...neither of us is going to convince the other on the class issue. Agree to disagree?

[Lord_Gareth]

I think...neither of us is going to convince the other on the class issue. Agree to disagree?

No. I will find you, Vilpich. I will find you, and I will bake you muffins! I will make you pastries and clean your house and care for you in every possible way UNTIL YOU SUBMIT TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY CAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE!

Yeah sounds good.

[Empedocles]

No. I will find you, Vilpich. I will find you, and I will bake you muffins! I will make you pastries and clean your house and care for you in every possible way UNTIL YOU SUBMIT TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY CAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE!

Yeah sounds good.

LOL I only saw the "yeah sounds good" in white when I quoted you :smalltongue:

And I'll give up a minor concession: in the d20 modern system, which has 6 10 level base classes based around each attribute and advanced classes that give the character a more in depth personality class-wise (like, from the strength class to soldier or the dedicated class to the acolyte) I completely approve of the way PrCs/Advanced Classes were handled.

[Daverin]

This... works strangely well. I *really* did not expect myself to see half-elf/half-orc as working, but you made it work very well. So, while your half-orc was awesome because it was awesome, I have to tip my figurative hat to you because this has both that and being awesome because this is not a concept I'd just expect to easily work. Are you sure you can't conjure up that half-dwarf half-orc that doesn't sound silly? :smalltongue:

(Although, in all seriousness, now that I think of it, if you could make a functional orog (orc/ogre) that isn't just the epitome of me smash, that'd be awesome. Seems like a great candidate for powerful build. Or, even better yet, orc/troll. No, I don't know how you'd make that work, either.)

As far as classes, I really have ever had one opinion; base classes should be mechanically versatile as much as possible. However, with fluff, and the intertwining of fluff and mechanics, let the base class fall where it is needed. Usually a generic fluff for adaptability is usually preferable, but sometimes a more narrow or developed fluff is nice, because sometimes a character concept calls for someone knowing that stuff since the start.

Also Lord_Gareth, if that is how you win arguments... remind me to get into an argument with you sometime. :smalltongue:

[Empedocles]

This... works strangely well. I *really* did not expect myself to see half-elf/half-orc as working, but you made it work very well. So, while your half-orc was awesome because it was awesome, I have to tip my figurative hat to you because this has both that and being awesome because this is not a concept I'd just expect to easily work. Are you sure you can't conjure up that half-dwarf half-orc that doesn't sound silly? :smalltongue:

(Although, in all seriousness, now that I think of it, if you could make a functional orog (orc/ogre) that isn't just the epitome of me smash, that'd be awesome. Seems like a great candidate for powerful build. Or, even better yet, orc/troll. No, I don't know how you'd make that work, either.)

As far as classes, I really have ever had one opinion; base classes should be mechanically versatile as much as possible. However, with fluff, and the intertwining of fluff and mechanics, let the base class fall where it is needed. Usually a generic fluff for adaptability is usually preferable, but sometimes a more narrow or developed fluff is nice, because sometimes a character concept calls for someone knowing that stuff since the start.

Also Lord_Gareth, if that is how you win arguments... remind me to get into an argument with you sometime. :smalltongue:

Okay, I'm officially inspired :smallredface:

The half-orc ogre and half-troll orc are possibilities, and maybe a half orc dwarf in the future.

I've also come up with two more bizarre combinations...but I have a plan for them :smallbiggrin. They are: half-elf goblin and half-elf harpy. I can't promise that all of these proposed races will come out as nicely as the voldur and the half-orc rewrite did...but I'll do my best and I'm fairly sure about at least two of the ideas.

[wayfare]

Okay, I'm officially inspired :smallredface:

The half-orc ogre and half-troll orc are possibilities, and maybe a half orc dwarf in the future.

I've also come up with two more bizarre combinations...but I have a plan for them :smallbiggrin. They are: half-elf goblin and half-elf harpy. I can't promise that all of these proposed races will come out as nicely as the voldur and the half-orc rewrite did...but I'll do my best and I'm fairly sure about at least two of the ideas.

Thanks, man, for adding a race that just needed to be made! this is the sort of thing that should be happening all the time between elves and orcs, what with their hisrory of war.

If you were going to make a dwarf hybrid, I would suggest using Hobgoblins or Bugbears as the other part of the union -- Orcs often conflict with elves, but the other goblinoids are all about raiding dwarf kingdoms.

[Empedocles]

Thanks, man, for adding a race that just needed to be made! this is the sort of thing that should be happening all the time between elves and orcs, what with their hisrory of war.

If you were going to make a dwarf hybrid, I would suggest using Hobgoblins or Bugbears as the other part of the union -- Orcs often conflict with elves, but the other goblinoids are all about raiding dwarf kingdoms.

You're welcome :smallwink:

The idea of using other goblinoids had occurred to me (mostly for mechanical things though) and you've convinced me that's the way to go! Thanks!

[willpell]

So far this is my favorite of your created races, although I don't know about giving away a Feat as high in the chain as Whirlwind Attack for free, seems like it would make a mockery out of all sorts of 8th-level fighters (who are already mad about the monks getting Stunning Fist at 2nd). And I think they should have both LLV and Darkvision, since Orcs have the latter; eyes that are not quite as light-sensitive as those of Orcs but still a little bit so would further justify the Wisdom penalty, even if they don't have a detached personality (because let's face it, roleplayers are always going to play their character the way they want to, whether or not it fits the type - indeed, Snowflakes being what they are, specifying an inherent racial trend is likely to increase the number of players who want to play some other way).

@ Wayfare: As far as I'm aware D&D does not consider orcs to be goblinoids, though I know many other systems do.

[Empedocles]

So far this is my favorite of your created races, although I don't know about giving away a Feat as high in the chain as Whirlwind Attack for free, seems like it would make a mockery out of all sorts of 8th-level fighters (who are already mad about the monks getting Stunning Fist at 2nd). And I think they should have both LLV and Darkvision, since Orcs have the latter; eyes that are not quite as light-sensitive as those of Orcs but still a little bit so would further justify the Wisdom penalty, even if they don't have a detached personality (because let's face it, roleplayers are always going to play their character the way they want to, whether or not it fits the type - indeed, Snowflakes being what they are, specifying an inherent racial trend is likely to increase the number of players who want to play some other way).

@ Wayfare: As far as I'm aware D&D does not consider orcs to be goblinoids, though I know many other systems do.

By created races, are you including basic race rewrites? because I'm definitely doing a sort of "take 2" on most of those....

I'm personally ok with giving out whirlwind attack. Sure, I'm making a mockery of fighters, but so is everything else in D&D.

I'm very happy with them just having LLV. Don't know why, but it feels right to me. If you ever use one though it'd be fine to add darkvision...

I agree with your points on fluff, and point to the drow as proof. People play a drow the way the want, regardless of how it fits in with the actual campaign world's drow.

[willpell]

I've seen your Half-Orc and your Drow and this (and glanced at the Emkami but didn't really get it, anyway that's a class not a race). If you've done any others I haven't looked at 'em.

[Empedocles]

I've seen your Half-Orc and your Drow and this (and glanced at the Emkami but didn't really get it, anyway that's a class not a race). If you've done any others I haven't looked at 'em.

Absolutely everything I've made can be found in the extended signature link in my sig. Also, and this made me laugh, the emkami? LOL :smalltongue: sorry you didn't get it. It's a very specific concept.

[Amburst]

Wow man thanks! Now I feel like I should make more races and less base classes...

That'd be cool. I haven't looked at much of your stuff yet. But what i have seen is amazing.

I like throwing in weird and strange races in my games, and you have been making great stuff

[Empedocles]

That'd be cool. I haven't looked at much of your stuff yet. But what i have seen is amazing.

I like throwing in weird and strange races in my games, and you have been making great stuff

Glad you enjoy it :smallsmile: I'm the first to admit though that not everything I make is, well, on part with other pieces of work.

Right now, I'm a little short on inspiration. Anything you'd like to see?

[Amburst]

Glad you enjoy it :smallsmile: I'm the first to admit though that not everything I make is, well, on part with other pieces of work.

Right now, I'm a little short on inspiration. Anything you'd like to see?

I like your idea of a half elf harpy, though i don't like the base dnd harpies much.

Maybe some aquatic races. It seems to me that the watery areas of many worlds are only scratched at.

[Empedocles]

I like your idea of a half elf harpy, though i don't like the base dnd harpies much.

Maybe some aquatic races. It seems to me that the watery areas of many worlds are only scratched at.

Thats a brilliant idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Amburst]

Thats a brilliant idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea, in the 3rd edition Monster Manual aquatic creatures seem to be only scratched at and their almost none existant online

[willpell]

Why on earth does a half-Elf, half-Orc get Favored Class: Any? There's no human component, so the specialty of humans doesn't seem fitting. Ranger or scout or something from Complete Warrior or Tome of Battle (I have read neither) is probably a good favored class for these guys.

[Morph Bark]

Overall, I like this race a lot. However, I have a little trouble with them getting Whirlwind Attack for free. You see, at higher levels it's peachy, but at level 1 you can essentially get anywhere from 0 to 23 attacks more than on a normal full attack (depending on how surrounded you are and if you are using a non-reach weapon, a reach weapon or a reach weapon that also threatens adjacent squares). Perhaps instead give them the ability to use the Steel Wind maneuver (iirc) of the Iron Heart discipline from Tome of Battle? That'd allow them to attack two targets within reach. Grant them the recovery mechanic of a Warblade and it's all good.

Plus, since a favoured class of "Any" doesn't really fit due to neither elves nor orcs having that, you could make their favoured class Warblade. (Ranger could work too, but then they'd be mostly geared towards spell-less melee Rangers, or at least have less spells than other Rangers.)

[Empedocles]

Why on earth does a half-Elf, half-Orc get Favored Class: Any? There's no human component, so the specialty of humans doesn't seem fitting. Ranger or scout or something from Complete Warrior or Tome of Battle (I have read neither) is probably a good favored class for these guys.

Yeah. As Morph Bark said, warblade might be appropriate.


Overall, I like this race a lot. However, I have a little trouble with them getting Whirlwind Attack for free. You see, at higher levels it's peachy, but at level 1 you can essentially get anywhere from 0 to 23 attacks more than on a normal full attack (depending on how surrounded you are and if you are using a non-reach weapon, a reach weapon or a reach weapon that also threatens adjacent squares). Perhaps instead give them the ability to use the Steel Wind maneuver (iirc) of the Iron Heart discipline from Tome of Battle? That'd allow them to attack two targets within reach. Grant them the recovery mechanic of a Warblade and it's all good.

Plus, since a favoured class of "Any" doesn't really fit due to neither elves nor orcs having that, you could make their favoured class Warblade. (Ranger could work too, but then they'd be mostly geared towards spell-less melee Rangers, or at least have less spells than other Rangers.)

That's a good idea. I'll make the changes.

[Larkas]

If you're using it, you could always make their favored class the RadicalTaoist's Sublime Way variant Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) :smallsmile:

EDIT: I found a very fitting artwork for a female Voldur. Take care, though, it's not safe for work.

Selith (http://sunamori.deviantart.com/art/Selith-Savage-Elf-Warrior-75069343)

[Empedocles]

If you're using it, you could always make their favored class the RadicalTaoist's Sublime Way variant Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) :smallsmile:

EDIT: I found a very fitting artwork for a female Voldur. Take care, though, it's not safe for work.

Selith (http://sunamori.deviantart.com/art/Selith-Savage-Elf-Warrior-75069343)

I don't think I'm going to make its favored class homebrew as of now.

The elf pic is awesome! I need to find a way for it to be not naked though....

[hoverfrog]

Awesome race.

The first thing I thought of was that this would fit in the Eberron campaign I've been running. A Voldur sorcerer with an aberrant dragonmark would make a great villain and a Voldur paladin or ranger would be an excellent character to play as a kind of lone protector in the wilderness.

One question on age though. Elves are traditionally long lived but orcs don't live for very long at all. I think that a Voldur would favour an orc parent for longevity as I see one burning through a short life rather than simmering for centuries.

[Empedocles]

Awesome race.

The first thing I thought of was that this would fit in the Eberron campaign I've been running. A Voldur sorcerer with an aberrant dragonmark would make a great villain and a Voldur paladin or ranger would be an excellent character to play as a kind of lone protector in the wilderness.

One question on age though. Elves are traditionally long lived but orcs don't live for very long at all. I think that a Voldur would favour an orc parent for longevity as I see one burning through a short life rather than simmering for centuries.

I agree. Voldur, I think, should live about as long as a normal human, if not shorter.

[Midnight_v]

I wanted to hop in and say...

this is one of my favorite bits of homebrew on this forum. Well written, I liked that the favorite class is warblade. Warblade seems like such a anatural fit for them fighting as they are for thier place in the world.

[willpell]

That's one of the things I don't like about your homebrews, Vilpich (excellent though they are in general). You shouldn't give only one favored class option unless the class is in the PHB; not everyone has Tome of Battle or Oriental Adventures, and not everyone who has them uses them. Warblades and sohei are specifically not canon in my game, so if I wanted to use Voldur or Sanguivado I'd have to come up with a different FC for them. If the Voldur had been published in TOB it'd be okay for them to list an initiator class as their only option, though that still might be a problem for some DMs who want to use the race but not the rest of the mechanics (Dusklings, for example, are perfectly playable in a no-Incarnum game; they just have 35 speed, and it'd be nice if the authors had said they can favor barbarian in a non-incarnum game...obvious though it is, it isn't RAW because they didn't care enough to specify.)

[Midnight_v]

so if I wanted to use Voldur or Sanguivado I'd have to come up with a different FC for them
Uhmm... its astonishingly simple to do that. I'd never use a "sohei", but I mean I'd just as soon say "whatever fits" favored class is the thing that matters the least out of ALL of that. I do like the favor, and you don't but, a miniscule amount of adjustment is all that is required.

Also... seriously, we all have the tome of battle by now...or we've seen it online enough to have a grasp of the mechanics. . . etc, I mean its not like it just came out. Srsly. Its a big legitimate(thanks official wotc) elephant in some peoples room, so its not unreasonable to have things that use it as a favorite class, especially "rare" races like this.

Honestly, Classes should come out and say "these are the races that can choose me as a favorite class" since there's over 50 base classes. etc. Imho. maybe 5th will fix it.

[Empedocles]

Okay...to adress your concerns.

If you don't have ToB change the favored class to Ranger.

Or barbarian.

Or fighter.

But I should point out that the warblade and all maneuvers are online. :smallconfused:

[danzibr]

Might I suggest making the third level paragon stat bonus a choice of Str or Dex?

[Empedocles]

Might I suggest making the third level paragon stat bonus a choice of Str or Dex?

That's an excellent idea. I'll put it in right away :smallredface:

[Empedocles]

Also, may I ask if anyone has had the opportunity to actually play a voldur? :smallredface: It seems to be popular enough that it might have happened.

[willpell]

Also... seriously, we all have the tome of battle by now...

I am intentionally not going to study Tome of Battle until I feel that I have completely understood everything related to magic; that means I have to read and understand Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Tome and Blood, the Spell Compendium, etc. etc. I already made the mistake of getting into psions, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic before I was really ready, and so I have loads of cool ideas but no real ability to process what everyone should be capable of. Amidst all that, the fact that a guy with a sword is simple mechanically is a godsend to me; I can build a barbarian from memory without referring to any books at all, while building a wizard requires me to spend hours poring through spell lists figuring out what his options are and which are worth investing in. The LAST thing I want to do is to inflict the same complexity on martial characters.

[nonsi]

I can build a barbarian from memory without referring to any books at all, while building a wizard requires me to spend hours poring through spell lists figuring out what his options are and which are worth investing in. The LAST thing I want to do is to inflict the same complexity on martial characters.


Yes, but a barbarian is no fun at all if you're 10th level and up and your DM has a shred of idea what s/he's doing and doesn't intentionally cuddle you.
And no. I'm no ToB fan and I'm not suggesting using it.


EDIT:
@Vilpich - count me in the Voldur's fan club. Outstanding work.

[willpell]

Well it remains to be seen whether that will prove true for me; so far I've confined myself to playing at level 5 or so. It seems to be the closest thing to a balance point, where fighters are still somewhat relevant and wizards are beginning to be serious contenders. I've so far only built one character up to level 9 (an Incarnate), and another to ECL 8 but that was a stupid template-stacking example that doesn't really count, and otherwise have never really been able to wrap my brain around what's possible past level 7.

[JoshuaZ]

I am intentionally not going to study Tome of Battle until I feel that I have completely understood everything related to magic; that means I have to read and understand Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Tome and Blood, the Spell Compendium, etc. etc. I already made the mistake of getting into psions, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic before I was really ready, and so I have loads of cool ideas but no real ability to process what everyone should be capable of. Amidst all that, the fact that a guy with a sword is simple mechanically is a godsend to me; I can build a barbarian from memory without referring to any books at all, while building a wizard requires me to spend hours poring through spell lists figuring out what his options are and which are worth investing in. The LAST thing I want to do is to inflict the same complexity on martial characters.

Tome of Battle is one of the easier to understand systems. So it may make more sense to get a handle on that before you focus completely on all the standard Vancian magic. Spell Compendium is *very long*. Note that a wizard can generally be pretty effective even if you restrict to core.

[willpell]

Forget Spell Compendium; I haven't even assimilated all the L1-3 spells in Core. I'm about halfway done.

[Empedocles]

Forget Spell Compendium; I haven't even assimilated all the L1-3 spells in Core. I'm about halfway done.

Memorizing the spells is not the best way to go about this...just saying.

[willpell]

Memorizing the spells is not the best way to go about this...just saying.

Well, not "memorizing", but what I call "processing". Just reading the spell in the book tells me nothing; I have to get a realistic sense of how it actually works in play, which usually means building a sample character who uses it. That way I have some idea of when he gets it, what else he and others of comparable level are getting, and how the spell looks with all the variables plugged in. At the very least I have to add it to the listing I use when building these characters - I learn better by writing than by reading, I've found, so I have to translate the text into a format that makes sense to me, and then at least the general idea of the spell takes its place within my mental library and can be vaguely understood.

So yeah, ToB is gonna have to wait.

[danzibr]

That's an excellent idea. I'll put it in right away :smallredface:
Just a flavor note, but you kept the text as tapping into the orc ancestry rather than orc or elf.

[willpell]

Also, may I ask if anyone has had the opportunity to actually play a voldur? :smallredface: It seems to be popular enough that it might have happened.

If you'd be willing to DM a short PBP on these forums, I'd be willing to give it a go. I'm desperate to play a psionic character, and while Ardent or Psychic Warrior is unfortunately a no-go with that Wisdom penalty, an Egoist (or an abnormally combat-focused version of any other discipline) would work perfectly fine, even if not really catering to the race's strengths.

[Rogue Shadows]

He does? Ah well, I'd like to leave it at low light vision, although I am tempted to change it because they have those pupilless eyes...

In any case, I appreciate it :smallsmile:

In my own take on the race, they got both low-light and darkvision...

Anyway, I like this race for one reason above all others:

-2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.

You weren't afraid to give it two ability score penalties.

[Razanir]

Can we get either an explanation of Steel Wind or an alternative for people without ToB? (ToB's where maneuvers are from, right?) And with that, could we also have a secondary favored class for the same group? This is REALLY nice, but if you couldn't tell, I don't have ToB (or whatever book that is)

[Virdish]

Hey Willpell if you do a PBP with these and the sangavido I would jump in as a Sangavido.

[Empedocles]

Can we get either an explanation of Steel Wind or an alternative for people without ToB? (ToB's where maneuvers are from, right?) And with that, could we also have a secondary favored class for the same group? This is REALLY nice, but if you couldn't tell, I don't have ToB (or whatever book that is)

All maneuvers are online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) for future reference, but I added a description of steel wind to the race.

[danzibr]

Imagine if we had an all-Voldur campaign! That'd be cool. I'd play.

[Empedocles]

Imagine if we had an all-Voldur campaign! That'd be cool. I'd play.

Potentially interesting...:smallcool:

And I'd play!

[danzibr]

Tell ya what. I'll commit to running one in a month or two. I'm making an epic 3-20 campaign that'll be done in 3 chunks. Once I finish the first chunk I'll give it a test drive as all-Voldir.

[Empedocles]

Really? Thanks! Much appreciated.

If you do it PbP PM me and I'll make time to participate.

[danzibr]

Yeah it'll be PbP right here. I'll let you know when I open the recruiting thread. In fact, it might be sooner than a month or two. I'm working on maps as we speak and already know what I want to happen, just have to fill in the details.

[Just to Browse]

Not sure if anyone has said this, but this is way stronger than most races. You get +2 to fighting stats, -2 to what are basically dump stats, then skill bonuses and a very powerful maneuver that you'll probably spam every round.

This is strictly better than both the elf and the orc, and even edges out the human a fair bit.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not sure if anyone has said this, but this is way stronger than most races. You get +2 to fighting stats, -2 to what are basically dump stats, then skill bonuses and a very powerful maneuver that you'll probably spam every round.

This is strictly better than both the elf and the orc, and even edges out the human a fair bit.

By "dump stats" you of course mean, "Two of the most significant stats in the game", right? Physical ability scores mean much, much less than mental ones.

[eftexar]

I would also be inclined to say that it is fine even if it is a bit more powerful, which it probably is. I think you have to compare it with his other races and not the PH races (if just barely). Still I have to agree with gareth on the ability bonus not being that big of deal here.
Steel wind takes a move action to recover, so I would think that sacrificing mobility would prevent spamming. If the enemy stands there clustered for several rounds in a row then that is the enemies fault. Besides spellcasters already have area of effects I'm sure.

[Just to Browse]

By "dump stats" you of course mean, "Two of the most significant stats in the game", right? Physical ability scores mean much, much less than mental ones.

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

[Lord_Gareth]

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

Yep. It controls the save DCs of huge numbers of SLAs, is the key casting stat for many classes, is the easiest ability score to add to any value on your character sheet (often multiple times), controls the most powerful and versatile skills in the game (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and much, much more.

Strength and Dex get you....carrying capacity, tiny to-hit and damage bonuses, Hide, Move Silently, and Jump. Can you see the difference?

[Morph Bark]

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

Off the top of my head I can think of fifteen builds that heavily rely on Charisma and only four that rely on Strength and three that rely on Dexterity. And at least one of each out of the Str and Dex builds is easily outdone by an Int build, Wis build or Cha build.

Con is the physical stat that matters most and Int is the mental stat that matters most, but Cha can be made to trump both of them in a build, easily.

[Answerer]

The half-elf/half-orc is cool idea, the write-up is solid, and the like; it's a good showing.

But it still seems like a fairly typical race. I would say that I don't like its ability modifiers largely because it pigeonholes the race very badly, but that's about it. Use of Steel Wind is interesting, though using the Warblade recovery mechanic strikes me as awkward since I'm not sure how that's supposed to interact with a Voldur initiator.


Also, yes, Int and Cha are probably much more valuable than Dex or Str. Con... not so much. Con's pretty much the only ability that everyone needs (barring Faerie Mysteries Initiate).

[danzibr]

Oh man I had a great idea. I think. With the talk of Voldur being a strong LA+0, why not make two versions? Like we have Githzerai and Githyanki, Goblins and Hobgoblins. Maybe you can do a regular and greater Voldur. Like how when a horse and donkey breed if the horse is the mother you get a mule but otherwise you get something else. Maybe when the Orc is the mom you get a big beefy one and when the Elf is the mom you get something more graceful. And one has a LA.

Just a suggestion.

[Answerer]

There is absolutely no way the Voldur qualifies as "too strong".

[danzibr]

There is absolutely no way the Voldur qualifies as "too strong".
Is that a response to my post somewhere? I didn't type "too strong" anywhere.

[Answerer]

OK, or "a strong LA+0." It's got nothing on Human, Strongheart Halfling, Warforged, or Whisper Gnome, for instance.

[danzibr]

OK, or "a strong LA+0." It's got nothing on Human, Strongheart Halfling, Warforged, or Whisper Gnome, for instance.
Yeah, comparison is totally the way to go. Excellent point, Answerer, I was just busy being a noob. I think this calls for... a buffing up of the Voldur. If Vilpich wishes.

So then how to do this? Pigeonhole it more badly or give it more versatility? Keeping the flavor in mind, of course.

I still like the making two versions.

[Veklim]

Like how when a horse and donkey breed if the horse is the mother you get a mule but otherwise you get something else.
It's called a Jenny, and there are recorded occurrences of them being able to birth live offspring (as far as I'm aware it's exceptionally rare, but has happened).

[willpell]

Steel Wind: A voldur can use the steel wind maneuver as a warblade with levels equal to his HD. This means that, as standard action, the voldur can make two attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but against two different foes that he threatens. The voldur can recover this maneuver (gain the ability to use it again) as a move action.


This seems much more reasonable than Whirlwind Attack, but please clue in the non-TOB readers as to what "as a warblade with levels = HD" means in this case. The "this means that" doesn't make it sound as if this ability has or needs any level-dependent variables. Seems like you're just copying the line they put in all spell-like abilities. Are there such things as "maneuver-like abilities"? How would those be different than just "abilities", given that (AFAIK) maneuvers are supposed to represent the work of intense training, more than they do anything supernatural?

(Also I like how the move action recovery means that you can basically just stand there making something akin to a full attack, unless you're BAB 11+, that doesn't actually count as one. It seems fitting somehow. I think I have officially decided to put these guys into the game, though I don't know if I like calling them voldur.)

[danzibr]

It's called a Jenny, and there are recorded occurrences of them being able to birth live offspring (as far as I'm aware it's exceptionally rare, but has happened).
Ahh thank you. I would've looked it up earlier but I was posting from my phone.

I've heard of mules on the rare occasion also being fertile. Interesting.

[Veklim]

Apologies, it's Hinny (male horse, female donkey), not Jenny (a female donkey). Forever mixing those two!

There have apparently been over 60 documented cases of fertile horse/donkey hybrids, but they are always female, the males seem to be exclusively sterile.

On a slightly more related topic (i.e. referring to the post, sorry!) I'd be careful about introducing anything which differentiates between genders in any mechanical way (even mere lineage issues). The socio-political fallout in the forum could be intense, and whereas there's plenty of evidence to support strengths/weaknesses inherent in both genders, it's not commonly seen as a reasonable topic of discussion outside of those with enough scientific and social grounding to understand there's no discrimination involved in the observations. In short, people think it's sexist :smallwink:

[danzibr]

Yeah... perhaps trying to stress it's strictly a biological point of view could help. Or maybe you can just do something like, "Occasionally, a beefy Voldur is born." Kind of like a Dragonwrought Kobold.

I think I'll take a closer look at the race's current mechanics compared with the golden standard of LA +0 races and Elf and Orc.

[Veklim]

I think I'll take a closer look at the race's current mechanics compared with the golden standard of LA +0 races and Elf and Orc.

I seriously hope the above comment was intended to drip with sarcasm! :smalltongue:

The idea of a rarer 'super' Voldur a la dragonwrought is a nice idea actually, but I'd be really tempted to give them some sort of mental instability to balance out the power hike. At least that way you could do it with a 1st level only feat option without the dragonwrought power-hike issue.

[Answerer]

I seriously hope the above comment was intended to drip with sarcasm! :smalltongue:
The statement was "golden standard" and "elf and orc." I.e. the union of those two sets, which also implies that the elf and orc are not among the gold standard (which they certainly are not).

The overwhelming majority of LA +0 choices (and, sadly, LA +1 choices too) offer little-to-nothing to a character who is higher level than about 5. The ability boosts are nice but at most it's just a +1 to hit/damage, +1 to Save DCs, and/or +1 HP/level. Most racial features are useless. The Voldur's is not useless per se, but it is a low-level option. Probably more useful than a 1st-level SLA the way some races have, but I wouldn't go much further than that.

In this scheme, the Bonus Feat stands apart, because that can make a ton of difference to any character. Sure, you get the feat at 1st, but it can serve as a prerequisite for something, which gets you started on feat chains earlier, allows easier and potentially earlier entry into PrCs, and combos coming together at a lower level. This is huge.

Other considerations are things like useful immunities (Warforged and Necropolitan have a lot of those, for instance), natural attacks (like Warforged, Kobolds, or Poison Dusk Lizardfolk), or particularly extreme and potent specialization (the Whisper Gnome being the ideal stealthy race in every conceivable way).

Or, ya know. Being a Kobold.


So, the real question for Vilpich is whether or not he wants the Voldur to be one of the "contenders," or just another of the myriad races that don't really offer enough to be considered in most builds (from a purely mechanical perspective; I'm not trying to deny how cool they are). If he does, they need somewhat more.

[Veklim]

Aye, mis-read the post. I honestly though danzibr was calling elves and orcs 'golden standard LA+0, lol!

One of my favourite examples of a racial ability which stays relevant has to be the Raptoran's flight. Even though the race is a little lack-lustre, and almost entirely pointless outside of flavour if there's any sort of spellcasting allowed in the game, I still think the basis of 'the higher your level, the better your racial bonus becomes' is a wonderful one to go with. I've toyed with the idea of using HD-scaling racial benefits so many times, but never seem to get around to actually building them! The first thought I had many years ago now was giving orcs a scaling melee attack and damage bonus (+1/5 HD), not a lot, but still more useful than a one-time +1 to hit and damage.

I can't argue with the bonus feat thing at all, I'm well aware of the power of a bonus feat (like early entry shenanigans or the ability to take 2 different '1st level only' feats, which are often rather nice indeed), and the warforged/kobold issues connected with racial feats have been happily documented several times over, with dragonwrought being the biggest offender of the lot. I would like to point out the slight dichotomy of this particular part of the argument though, because shifters have a similar feat support, and wildly varying options at any build level, and yet they're still considered sub-standard in many respects (I personally think they're great, but I do see the issues).

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned immunities, natural attacks and uber-specialisations though. These are the things which make certain races immeasurably superior to their LA counterparts. Wouldn't it be lovely if all the PHB races got a scaling benefit (except humans of course, dirty blighters that they are!)?! Subtle hint..... :smallbiggrin:

[Answerer]

Oooh, Raptoran, and that reminds me, Dragonborn. Those are also LA +0 races whose features continue to matter as a character grows. Good call.

As for scaling races, the Kalashtar come to mind immediately. And while we're on that subject, the Elan are a decent race and both Half-Giants and Goliaths can make a serious case for that LA +1.


But just having racial feats isn't enough; they have to be good racial feats. The Warforged feats (more immunities, free Adamantine Full-Plate, another natural attack) are excellent. The Shifter feats are mostly pretty meh. Mostly, Shifters are less-than-a-race while unshifted, but only slightly-better-than-a-normal-race (and not even a gold standard race) while they are. The problem is that Shifting is extremely limited, and Shifter feats only increase the amount of time you can spend Shifted very slightly.

[Veklim]

So, in that vein, what would happen if you made the Voldur's Steel Wind ability scale with BAB...? So for every iterative attack you gain, you may attack another target (+6 BAB grants 3 targets, +11 grants 4, etc...)?

[willpell]

In short, people think it's sexist :smallwink:

Yes people think that; it doesn't mean they're right, and my $0.02USD is that you shouldn't let a few excessively sensitive and quick-to-complain types bully you out of doing whatever you find artistically correct, Vilpich. Saying that all voldur males have higher Strength than all voldur females would not make you the ultimate champion of patriarchal oppression, even though there are those who will do their best to convince you that it does. Non carborundum.


I still think the basis of 'the higher your level, the better your racial bonus becomes' is a wonderful one to go with.

I have a set of homebrew races whose racially favored skill gets +Level instead of a flat +2; I thought it seemed way overpowered, since you can have double the ranking anyone else is capable of. But I'll consider this a vote for leaving it as-is for the moment.

[Veklim]

Perhaps 2+ (1/2 HD) might be a little more balanced, but in essence it's exactly what I'm talking about, aye!

[danzibr]

I was gong to start doing a ton of multi-quotes, but... doesn't seem necessary.

Right, I wasn't saying Elf and Orc are the good LA +0 races. I was saying look at the good LA +0 races and then throw in the flavor of Elf and Orc. Combining those three things ought to be a good Voldur, I think.

As for the super Voldur, I wasn't really talking about a feat, just using Dragonwrought Kobolds as an example. Probably Goblin -> Hobgoblin would be a better example. Or something more distant, like Goliath -> Feral Gargun (or whatever it's called, and even then that one's quite a stretch).

I'm still a fan of the mother-father/father-mother thing.

[Just to Browse]

Yep. It controls the save DCs of huge numbers of SLAs, is the key casting stat for many classes, is the easiest ability score to add to any value on your character sheet (often multiple times), controls the most powerful and versatile skills in the game (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and much, much more.

Strength and Dex get you....carrying capacity, tiny to-hit and damage bonuses, Hide, Move Silently, and Jump. Can you see the difference?

It controls save DCs... of classes that aren't melee. It is the key casting stat... for classes that aren't melee. It's not a required stat for any save, attack, or for your armor class, and it controls 2 social skills that are highly controversial, and a skill you might get if you're a skillmonkey (which isn't going to optimize for strength).

Strength and Dexterity will improve your to-hit bonus for melee AND ranged, your damage, your armor class, and your reflex. Can you see the difference?

[willpell]

That might matter if 3.5 didn't hate melee with a fiery unquenchable passion....

[Just to Browse]

That might matter if 3.5 didn't hate melee with a fiery unquenchable passion....

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.

[willpell]

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.

And you'll still get shot to death with a pixie with a bow, or a low-level wizard with a Grease or Glitterdust spell. I wish it wasn't true, but it is - 3.5 hates melee with a fiery unquenchable passion.

[Answerer]

That double attack must be against two different foes, and is only used 1/encounter unless you don't use your Move action – at which point you could just be TWF-ing or Whirling Frenzying, and therefore get to attack one guy twice (which is almost always the better option).

After you have BAB +6/+1, Steel Wind is relegated to "1/encounter, if you're forced to not make a Full Attack, you could do this." After +11/+6/+1, you're actively losing out on damage; at +16/+11/+6/+1 your damage is literally being halved if you can make the hits.

[willpell]

Mind you, I'm not against it or anything, I think it's a nice and fitting ability, especially at the low levels where melee still has some hope of relevance. But it's definitely not something that seems likely to be overpowered even with a lot of work devoted to optimizing it at low levels, and as answerer points out its relevance past level 12 or so is negligible (save perhaps on low-BAB classes if they're somehow forced into melee, but that's a stretch at best at the necessary CR).

[Veklim]

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.

Huge in relation to the horrifically underpowered melee style, yes. Which will effectively make melee into a viable choice for perhaps 2 or 3 levels longer than before. It's still underpowered in comparison with a reasonable bard build or a sub-standard fullcaster.

I fail to understand why you're knocking this for powering up melee when the general consensus is that MELEE NEEDS ALL THE HELP IT CAN GET!

[Empedocles]

To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

[danzibr]

Hey Vilpich, what do you think of the two versions of Voldur?

Also, I'm working on that campaign. I expect to start it... probably in a couple weeks.

[Just to Browse]

willpell: That is because wizards are tier 1 and flight is a very strong ability. If your point is that things which everybody knows are overpowered make it OK for huge bonuses, then you should be OK with +20 strength because I pixie with a bow or a wizard with grease could still win. The logic is flawed.

Answerer: Yes, against two foes. And that is doubling your total damage output every turn where you can refresh it + 1 for the turn you get free. You are a melee character, so you use a move to get into the action, then use steel wind, then as you are attacked by several opponents you continue to use steel wind and deal double damage each round.

Veklim: So the fact that it's brokenly overpowered at low levels is OK because all Voldurs will take classes that make them useless at high levels?... That's just... I... just no.

Vilpich:No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).

In addition to that it comes with great stat boosts, has an excellent favored class for multiclassing, and gets better miscellaneous benefits than most races.

=====

Now this is a good race. It has an interesting background, unique abilities, and encourages people to play Tome of Battle (which they should). But it's on par with the a lesser aasimar classing as a spellcaster. That's good--I actually enjoy playing with strong races--but this obviously deviates from the norm of race balance.

[Veklim]

It's not brokenly overpowered. Truth is, the option of refreshing as a move action makes this choice only viable 1 or 2 times maximum per encounter, because unless the enemy is UNBELIEVABLY stupid, they will charge and attack the characters which look squishy, not the massive dude with the big sword. Half of the trouble for melee is action economy, the fact that you usually need to move to stay in the fight, at least every other round (unless of course you enjoy watching your support and non-melee characters getting slotted), and that makes full attacks uncommon at least 50% of the time, in many (if not most) encounters where you're fighting something with more than 2 or 3 intelligence.

As I said above (perhaps unclearly, since you seem to think I was agreeing it's overpowered, whereas I think I said the opposite reasonably succinctly), it makes a melee build marginally more effective for a few levels. That is, as long as you're not 2WF of course, in which case it's near-pointless to use anyhow.


To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).
Ermmm...nope. It's not as good as a feat, because it's not a choice of a feat, it's pre-chosen for you. I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter, every melee build I've ever played (and there's a fair few of them) has had the constant annoyance of having to catch up with the enemy before they shank the mage/rogue/healer etc, if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.

[willpell]

Half of the trouble for melee is action economy, the fact that you usually need to move to stay in the fight, at least every other round (unless of course you enjoy watching your support and non-melee characters getting slotted), and that makes full attacks uncommon at least 50% of the time, in many (if not most) encounters where you're fighting something with more than 2 or 3 intelligence.

Characters cannot leave melee without risking an attack of opportunity. So once the voldur has moved to engage his target, he will probably stay engaged with his target until one of them dies. The opponent can 5-foot step away, and the voldur can 5-foot step in, then either full-attack or refresh steel wind and use it. Or the opponent can withdraw, make a full double-move away while doing nothing else, and the voldur can charge to re-engage, being limited to single attacks while the opponent keeps running away each round and never does anything, until and unless terrain prevents one of them from completing this pattern (if the fleeing character can find some rough terrain or a corner to go around, the voldur loses the ability to charge but can still hustle to keep them from getting away, so the only way the fight ever actually ends is if the victim can reach a horse or a boat or something, or finds a porcullis to drop or a cliff that he can climb which the voldur can't, or whatnot).


That is, as long as you're not 2WF of course, in which case it's near-pointless to use anyhow.

With Steel Wind to let you get multiple attacks, you don't need two weapons, you can afford to use a greatsword or something. And Voldur get good Strength, so they'll probably be adding between +3 and +6 on those attacks, with only one hit roll instead of two hit rolls at a -2 penalty thanks to TWF (for the same amount of bonus damage, and slightly less or slightly more base damage depending on weapon choices, though TWF does have the advantage of letting you use multiple energy types or similar special abilities on the separate weapons).


I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter

That's exactly the kind of campaign I run, because it's a comfortable place to start. True, it'll eventually get boring, but new people are learning the game every day, while most of the people who post in this forum are essentially grognards by now, regarding 3E as a solved equation and having ruled out too many of its possibilities because they don't hold up to a TO test. If you're that kind of player maybe voldur isn't for you, but it'd be GREAT for someone like me, someone for whom lining up with a passel of bugbears and going into Cuisinart mode is good clean fun which doesn't overwork my brain after a long day at my job (where I use it a great deal, in spite of my employer's wishes).


if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.

Maybe you should just have a game where there aren't any squishy combatants for the opponent to run back and attack. Clerics are tanks, duskblades can fill the need for an arcane caster while still tanking, a factotum can be the party rogue and drop a feat on Medium AP without inconveniencing himself...an all-tank party is not impossible.

[nonsi]

I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter, every melee build I've ever played (and there's a fair few of them) has had the constant annoyance of having to catch up with the enemy before they shank the mage/rogue/healer etc, if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.


Sound like my Warrior is the perfect solution for all of your problems.

[Veklim]

@willpell
I'm not dissing the Voldur, nor am I saying I'd not play one, in fact I'd love to! I am merely pointing out to some critics here that the Steel Wind ability is far from OP. Even with your examples it's only really relevant with 2 enemies, otherwise the moment you charge into combat, you're tying 2 down whilst everyone else is free to pick their own targets and go. This means that the ability merely replaces a 2WF build at early levels, allowing you to use 2HW against more than 1 target, a nice thing, but not OTT. You must remember though, that a 2WF build could throw both attacks at 1 target, whereas this can't. Tit for tat eh?!

We rarely do standard dungeon crawls with lots of corridors (where the Steel Wind would truly excel as I see it), often ending up in reasonably open area combat instead. Thing is, you're only effective with the ability when there's 2+ enemies within reach, meaning single enemy encounters nullify it, and large group encounters mostly ignore the fact you're hitting 2 enemies per turn instead of 1, at least for the first couple of rounds.

Also, my arguement was to counter the statement that giving something Steel Wind as a racial ability was OP in itself. If you're running with factotums then this race is the least of your troubles for OP gameplay! As far as I see it, Steel Wind merely shoehorns you into melee builds a bit, although the idea of a rogue Voldur is one which makes me giggle like a schoolgirl, I must say!

Basically, the moment you drop one of the 2 enemies in front of you, there's no using Steel Wind until you can find another target within reach. Steel Wind is therefore powerful, but highly situational, and I can see no reason to call it overpowered. This was all I was trying to say! :smallbiggrin:

@nonsi
Oooooooo, me likey...you were indeed correct! :smallwink:

[Larkas]

To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

I've been thinking... What if you simply gave the voldur Martial Study as a bonus feat, which it may spend in any maneuver from a discipline available to Warblades, and give it another ability that says that it can recover any maneuver that doesn't have a recovery method as a move (or standard) action? That way, the race would have more versatility by choosing the maneuver, could still recover it if its 1st level isn't in any initiator class, and would have the extra versatility of having a recovery method for every maneuver that doesn't have them, such as the ones learned through Martial Study by non-initiators!

[nonsi]

I've been thinking... What if you simply gave the voldur Martial Study as a bonus feat, which it may spend in any maneuver from a discipline available to Warblades, and give it another ability that says that it can recover any maneuver that doesn't have a recovery method as a move (or standard) action? That way, the race would have more versatility by choosing the maneuver, could still recover it if its 1st level isn't in any initiator class, and would have the extra versatility of having a recovery method for every maneuver that doesn't have them, such as the ones learned through Martial Study by non-initiators!

I have a better idea.
Instead of shoehorning it into the martial role, give it Darkvision and be done with.

[Larkas]

I have a better idea.
Instead of shoehorning it into the martial role, give it Darkvision and be done with.

Yeah, 'cause Darkvision would totally help it with other roles.

[danzibr]

Martial Study is more flavorful than Darkvision, I think. If I were making a Voldur, I'd keep the flavor in mind. Reminds me of the Aasimar-Tiefling mix.

[willpell]

It bugs me on a certain level that Voldur get LLV and not DV, given that they have one parent for each; then again, it also bugs me that they are as dextrous as Elves and "almost" as strong as Orcs. Perhaps that's the way to get your Greater Voldur, Danzibr? Give them +4 Strength, Darkvision, and something that elves get? AFAIK there aren't any Orc subraces while Elfs have a different subrace for every environment they live in; perhaps the Greater Voldur has a set of regional variants that all get special abilities reminiscent of the local Elf subrace.

[Larkas]

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...

[danzibr]

It bugs me on a certain level that Voldur get LLV and not DV, given that they have one parent for each; then again, it also bugs me that they are as dextrous as Elves and "almost" as strong as Orcs. Perhaps that's the way to get your Greater Voldur, Danzibr? Give them +4 Strength, Darkvision, and something that elves get? AFAIK there aren't any Orc subraces while Elfs have a different subrace for every environment they live in; perhaps the Greater Voldur has a set of regional variants that all get special abilities reminiscent of the local Elf subrace.
That's what I was kind of thinking. Great Voldur get all the benefits of both races, lesser, well... don't. However, I also think there should be something more than taking the best of each, like the current Steel Wind thingy.

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...
Yeah, but IIRC there are way more Elf subraces. Still, both races do have environmental variants.

[Larkas]

I always thought of Orcs as variant goblinoids, but I guess I owe that thinking to Tolkien; more specifically, to The Hobbit.

[danzibr]

I always thought of Orcs as variant goblinoids, but I guess I owe that thinking to Tolkien; more specifically, to The Hobbit.
That... hmm, I wonder. In D&D lore I have no idea how Orcs are biologically related to Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc. In LotR they're mutated (well, kinda) Elves, as commonly known.

On an unrelated note, this thread makes me want to do some homebrew combining other races which you usually wouldn't think of combining. Goliath-Gnome? Interesting.

[Lord_Gareth]

Answerer: Yes, against two foes. And that is doubling your total damage output every turn where you can refresh it + 1 for the turn you get free. You are a melee character, so you use a move to get into the action, then use steel wind, then as you are attacked by several opponents you continue to use steel wind and deal double damage each round.

Veklim: So the fact that it's brokenly overpowered at low levels is OK because all Voldurs will take classes that make them useless at high levels?... That's just... I... just no.

Vilpich:No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).

In addition to that it comes with great stat boosts, has an excellent favored class for multiclassing, and gets better miscellaneous benefits than most races.

So, I just got off the phone, and it turns out that color spray, burning hands, fighters with greatswords, raging barbarians, the entire Warblade class, the Cleave feat, the standard-issue Orc race, Warforged, Humans (all of them), Strongheart Halflings, Dwarves, and Raptorans would all like deep and intense words with how objectively wrong the idea that the Steel Wind racial is 'brokenly overpowered' is.

See, thing is this: low levels? They're swingy. They're hilariously swingy. It's not uncommon for one or two hits to end a creature or a PC from level 1-3 - sometimes 1-5 depending on what kind of creatures a DM favors - and there's a slew of effects like color spray that end entire encounters in a single fight. Giving the Voldur a marginal improvement on Martial Study: Steel Wind is a complete and utter non-issue in every way that it's possible for it to be a non-issue in.

[Just to Browse]

LG, I like you and I like the things you do, and I honestly don't want to get into a fight with you, especially when you're making points to which the only response seems to be "No it doesn't work that way." So I'm going to move on.

===

Concerning "Enemies Won't Line Up for the Fighter": If your enemies work that way, then the fighter stands in front of the squishes and gives at least one enemy an AoO as they pass by. Then he continues to spam steel wind. The problem doesn't actually change, he's just standing somewhere else.

On Martial Study: I actually don't like the Voldur only having martial study and his stat bonuses--martial study isn't all that great of a feat unless you're picking up a boost.

Personally, I'd have the voldur keep steel wind, but have it only refresh if he hits someone. This way he spends round one attacking a guy, then hits his steel wind in R2, then attacks another guy in round 3.... and AoOs probably shouldn't refresh it. At high levels, there are ways around that, but at high levels steel wind isn't very useful anyhow.

[Lord_Gareth]

Dude, if you want an example of a race that's melee-heavy, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240239) is a race that's melee-heavy and intentionally designed above-the-curve for a specific environment (in this case, the world of Dreavarr).

[eftexar]

I'm going to step in and point out that this argument is just going is circles now. I say let vilpich make his final decision and move onto something else, before this becomes completely unproductive.

Such as the elven and orcish blood thing. What if an affect, for whatever odd reason, targets orcs and elves doing something different for each? Would the voldur be affected by both effects? Just thought you might want to address that.
What do you think about having a secondary (and optional) favored class as a backup. Essentially I'm thinking what if somebody doesn't have tome of battle?

A couple of things on the paragon class. I don't think it should have all good saves (not because it would be overpowered, but because I think all characters should have at least one bad save).
And I really feel like the paragon class is sort of boring. The race offers a maneuver and so is interesting, but I would much sooner take levels of fighter than levels of paragon. It doesn't have anything active to use and the bonuses aren't too unusual (as they come standard on many races) or sweeping. For example, how about an effective size increase in certain situations instead of a strength boost?

[Empedocles]

I'm going to step in and point out that this argument is just going is circles now. I say let vilpich make his final decision and move onto something else, before this becomes completely unproductive.

Such as the elven and orcish blood thing. What if an affect, for whatever odd reason, targets orcs and elves doing something different for each? Would the voldur be affected by both effects? Just thought you might want to address that.
What do you think about having a secondary (and optional) favored class as a backup. Essentially I'm thinking what if somebody doesn't have tome of battle?

A couple of things on the paragon class. I don't think it should have all good saves (not because it would be overpowered, but because I think all characters should have at least one bad save).
And I really feel like the paragon class is sort of boring. The race offers a maneuver and so is interesting, but I would much sooner take levels of fighter than levels of paragon. It doesn't have anything active to use and the bonuses aren't too unusual (as they come standard on many races) or sweeping. For example, how about an effective size increase in certain situations instead of a strength boost?

Yay! A constructive comment! Thanks! :smallsmile:

Final verdict is, for me, as my homebrew, this isn't overpowered. If you think it is, replace the recovery-oriented steel wind power with normal martial study bonus feat.

I'm ok with the paragon being boring, but I will think on it. Basically, all paragons are pretty lackluster, so I didn't put too much into mine. Not really feeling the size increase idea, but I will give it something more unique. Oh, and I like the all good saves as is.

I'll add a secondary favored class for ToB newbies.

[137beth]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

[Empedocles]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

Good point...

[willpell]

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...

If that's the elemental races from Unearthed Arcana, they're an optional variant and don't count. There are no Water Orcs in the MM1.

[Empedocles]

If that's the elemental races from Unearthed Arcana, they're an optional variant and don't count. There are no Water Orcs in the MM1.

They, uh, don't count? :smallconfused:

If we want to get technical on orc variants, not including elemental/environmental variants, we have...

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

[willpell]

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

Most of those I haven't heard of, but I believe several of them are specific to a single campaign world (Forgotten Realms in the case of Tanarruk and I believe Orog, plus Tanarruk are Planetouched, and thus don't count as a subrace of normal orcs just as Fey'ri don't count as a subrace of normal elves), and thus continue to not count. The Sharakim are in the mainstream of 3E, but they're not even really orcs, they are (or at least believe themselves to be) transformed humans, who look like orcs but do everything they can to prove they aren't really. This leaves Gray Orcs, Scro, and Losel which I've never heard of, and Mountain Orcs which I think I glimpsed were mentioned in a Scarred Lands book I happen to have, and am not aware of them existing elsewhere.

[Empedocles]

Most of those I haven't heard of, but I believe several of them are specific to a single campaign world (Forgotten Realms in the case of Tanarruk and I believe Orog, plus Tanarruk are Planetouched, and thus don't count as a subrace of normal orcs just as Fey'ri don't count as a subrace of normal elves), and thus continue to not count. The Sharakim are in the mainstream of 3E, but they're not even really orcs, they are (or at least believe themselves to be) transformed humans, who look like orcs but do everything they can to prove they aren't really. This leaves Gray Orcs, Scro, and Losel which I've never heard of, and Mountain Orcs which I think I glimpsed were mentioned in a Scarred Lands book I happen to have, and am not aware of them existing elsewhere.

Ok...you seem to have a slightly silly definition of what does and doesn't count (no offense). Something is campaign setting specific...so it doesn't count? Artificer doesn't count as a class?

Sharakim are classified as an orc subrace, it's just that their fluff varies from the norm. Gray orcs are also from Forgotten Realms (which apparently means they don't count....). Scro and Losel are from Dragon magazine I believe. Does that make them not count either...?

EDIT: Frostblood orc. Dragon Magic. I dare you to argue with that :smallyuk:

[willpell]

Ok...you seem to have a slightly silly definition of what does and doesn't count (no offense). Something is campaign setting specific...so it doesn't count?

Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't


Artificer doesn't count as a class?

Classes don't answer to the same standard as races. A class is a learned set of skills, sometimes coupled with a power source or other detail which might be campaign-specific; you couldn't have Warlocks in a setting where it's explicitly impossible for people to have magic in their blood, but for the most part classes are quintessential. Ruling a purely training-and-knowledge based class out-of-universe would suggest that attempting to practice that vocation just doesn't work for no real reason, so for the most part classes will always translate.

Races, however, are particular species of creature which are only found in certain campaign worlds; it makes as much sense to say there are no Orogs outside Faerun as to say there are no polar bears outside the Arctic (zoos excepted), only even more so, since the Arctic is physically connected to the rest of the world and a polar bear could theoretically migrate if given a reason. Orogs from Faerun have no possible way of transporting themselves to Krynn or Mystara or even Greyhawk; those worlds don't even exist in the same multiverse, interplanar portals can't connect them, except in a specific campaign multiverse designed to contain them both, which is distinct from the "true" versions of those worlds.


Scro and Losel are from Dragon magazine I believe. Does that make them not count either...?

At least for my purposes it does, since I don't have those Dragons. (Really, putting official content in a magazine was one of the more spectacularly dumb ideas TSR/Wotco ever had; it's hard enough just to collect all the books.)


EDIT: Frostblood orc. Dragon Magic. I dare you to argue with that :smallyuk:

I don't know that supplement, and scuttlebutt suggests that it was kind of farted out just to make money when there wasn't really a need for it, so who knows.

[paddyfool]

Liking this much more than I thought I would.

Any intention to make some racial substitution levels for it? I could see something interesting being done for wilderness-themed classes, like Ranger, what with the elven connection to the wild and orc savagery.

[danzibr]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

Good point...
I meant to say something on this earlier. I'd think whichever parent raised them, likely the Elf. That is, common and one other is what I'd suggest.

[Empedocles]

Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't

So you're saying...I can't adapt it? I could never, ever have planetouched orcs...because the only one written by WotC was put in a campaign specific supplement?




Classes don't answer to the same standard as races. A class is a learned set of skills, sometimes coupled with a power source or other detail which might be campaign-specific; you couldn't have Warlocks in a setting where it's explicitly impossible for people to have magic in their blood, but for the most part classes are quintessential. Ruling a purely training-and-knowledge based class out-of-universe would suggest that attempting to practice that vocation just doesn't work for no real reason, so for the most part classes will always translate.

Races, however, are particular species of creature which are only found in certain campaign worlds; it makes as much sense to say there are no Orogs outside Faerun as to say there are no polar bears outside the Arctic (zoos excepted), only even more so, since the Arctic is physically connected to the rest of the world and a polar bear could theoretically migrate if given a reason. Orogs from Faerun have no possible way of transporting themselves to Krynn or Mystara or even Greyhawk; those worlds don't even exist in the same multiverse, interplanar portals can't connect them, except in a specific campaign multiverse designed to contain them both, which is distinct from the "true" versions of those worlds.

Yes, they do. It's called the DM wanting one in his game. End of story :smallannoyed: Plenty of people play warforged outside of Eberron....




At least for my purposes it does, since I don't have those Dragons. (Really, putting official content in a magazine was one of the more spectacularly dumb ideas TSR/Wotco ever had; it's hard enough just to collect all the books.)

For your purposes? So now it doesn't count because you don't have it?


I don't know that supplement, and scuttlebutt suggests that it was kind of farted out just to make money when there wasn't really a need for it, so who knows.

So...because it wasn't necessary, it doesn't count?

[Morph Bark]

They, uh, don't count? :smallconfused:

If we want to get technical on orc variants, not including elemental/environmental variants, we have...

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

Aren't Orogs a half-breed with ogres in some obscure 3rd party setting? Dunno what Scro and Losel are. Sharakim I've always found confusing on what they were. Tanarukks and Water Orcs are awesome.


Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't

IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

Furthermore, I believe there was an official setting in which Eberron, the Forgotten Realms and one other setting (Dragonlance I believe) were connected in a kind of trinity of realms.

[Empedocles]

Aren't Orogs a half-breed with ogres in some obscure 3rd party setting? Dunno what Scro and Losel are. Sharakim I've always found confusing on what they were. Tanarukks and Water Orcs are awesome.

IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

I wouldn't call it some obscure 3rd party setting...just Forgotten Realms....

As to being in the Fiend Folio...good point! :smallbiggrin:

[Larkas]

Furthermore, I believe there was an official setting in which Eberron, the Forgotten Realms and one other setting (Dragonlance I believe) were connected in a kind of trinity of realms.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but in Spelljammer, Greyspace (Greyhawk), Krynnspace (Dragonlance) and Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) are pretty much connected, with Phlogiston currents easily bringing a jammer from one crystal sphere to the other. As an analogy, think of the ocean current connecting Europe to the Americas.

[willpell]

So you're saying...I can't adapt it? I could never, ever have planetouched orcs...because the only one written by WotC was put in a campaign specific supplement?

Certainly you can do that in YOUR game, but it's not the default truth in ALL games until a DM specifies otherwise; the existence of wood elves and wild elves and drow is.


For your purposes? So now it doesn't count because you don't have it?


So...because it wasn't necessary, it doesn't count?

AFAIC, yes in both cases. Others are free to rule otherwise.


IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

Fiend Folio is canonical? I had thought otherwise.


Don't know if that's what you mean, but in Spelljammer, Greyspace (Greyhawk), Krynnspace (Dragonlance) and Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) are pretty much connected, with Phlogiston currents easily bringing a jammer from one crystal sphere to the other. As an analogy, think of the ocean current connecting Europe to the Americas.

Interesting. But all that is true only in Spelljamer multiverses; other multiverses are equally defined by their lack of Spelljammer, or of any other campaign setting. My campaign world Whiteleaf for example is a modified Greyhawk (purged of most Gygaxian creations), explicitly created by aspects of the detities who left Oerth and created a "better" version of that world (without the goofy name that EGG intentionally created to be goofy because he thought Fantasy of the day took itself too seriously, an assessment I don't agree with). Accessing the original Oerth from Whiteleaf is explicitly impossible, and it will likewise never cross over with the mainstream Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms settings, as both are bloated with continuity that I'm not familiar with. Thusly even if a crossover point did exist between Whiteleaf and Aber-Toril, it wouldn't be the "real" Forgotten Realms, but my approximation thereof (and Elminster would be nowhere to be found, that alone should tell you it'd be different). Eberron is nowhere near as old and heavily-evolved, so if I crossed over with it, it'd be more nearly the original, but still not a perfect match for the universe as Keith Baker envisions it, since I'm not inside his head nor would I share all his priorities.

[Larkas]

I was addressing Morph Bark, really, but since you touched the subject, I can't help but giving my opinion on this: saying something doesn't exist is as arbitrary as saying that it does. Following your example, Gray Elves are default issue in 3.5, being in the Monster Manual and all. Should you take that to mean they exist everywhere? Of course not. They don't exist in Toril, for example, where the closest thing you can get to a Gray Elf is a Gold Elf (IIRC, at least). There is no such thing as "canon" D&D, only what Dungeon Masters want to be canon in their world. Star Elves and Gold Elves are as much an Elven subrace as Mountain and Gray Orcs are an Orcish subrace, even if they are "not supposed to be everywhere"; though they can be if the DM thinks they should. As can the Tanarruk or the Fey'ri, who are as valid Planetouched as an Aasimar or a Tiefling. Likewise, the DM can easily rule that Kobolds don't exist in his/her world, just as in your campaign I suppose Zagig Yragerne doesn't exist.

What I want to say is: just because Tanarruks supposedly don't exist everywhere, it doesn't mean that they are not a valid orc subrace. The fact that they are not a subrace at all but planetouched, though, does.

Anyways, on a tangent, do you keep your notes on this Whiteleaf campaign anywhere? I'd love to take a look at them, as I like Greyhawk overall, but really think it could do a lot better without some of the more silly stuff.

[danzibr]

This thread seems like it's getting totally derailed.

Hey Vilpich, what do you think of the lesser and great Voldurs? Or whatever they'd be called. Might be a good opportunity to mix it up, if you wish.

[willpell]

Following your example, Gray Elves are default issue in 3.5, being in the Monster Manual and all. Should you take that to mean they exist everywhere?

Unless the DM or a campaign setting states otherwise, yes, I would assume that a random D&D 3E campaign world contains all things in the Core 3 books and does not contain anything else, until the DM states otherwise. Established settings such as Forgotten Realms have their own books which supplement the core for this purpose and specifically state what they contain (whether they imply the absence of things they don't specify or intentionally exclude them with a blanket statement I'm not sure; Eberron is a special case in that it explicitly includes everything, whereas if I published Whiteleaf it would contain the opposite, a disclaimer that nothing is canonical there unless the book or the DM says it is).

Fun fact, when one of my players wanted to play a Gold Elf in Whiteleaf, I worked out the idea that the Gold and Gray elves had a shared society in which the Grays, having a more attentuated skill set, were an elite minority which tended to control the society. I also somehow worked out that they tended toward psionics, and had lost the elven love of nature from being isolated in their arcane laboratories building magic items all the time. The player in question objected somewhat to the idea that elves would ever not have trees growing out of the middle of their city, and thought that "lives on a mountain" means "lives in a forested temperate belt halfway up a mountain" rather than "lives on the very peak of the mountain where everything is bare rock". I worked out a compromise where the gold elves tended to dwell further down the mountain, used a lot of magic to get a few trees to grow, and were beginning to suspect the grays of corruption due to their not caring about nature so much, even while elves that didn't live on a mountain suspected both "mountain elf" varieties of the same. All this came up entirely because i susbstituted Auran for Sylvan on their language list, originally just to be different.


Likewise, the DM can easily rule that Kobolds don't exist in his/her world, just as in your campaign I suppose Zagig Yragerne doesn't exist.

Correct. Kobolds are actually another one I picked on; the word "kobold" is the German equivalent to "brownie" or "leprechaun", and I had a problem with them being reptiles. I figured out from a few old illustrations that the kobolds were at one point pictured as scaly red goblinoids, which is close enough to being some sort of fey that I was okay with it, but that earlier and later illustrations had distorted them into the Compsognathus-looking dudes we know and love, so I decided to keep those guys around but give them a new name, and have a race of mischevious trap-building goblinoids that were actually called Kobolds, and didn't share the connection to dragons that the reptilian race does. The goblinoid Kobolds are scaly but don't count as reptiles, just as bugbears are furry but don't count as mammals; both are goblinoids, meaning they're not a natural species but a form of corrupted fey whose biology doesn't follow logical patterns.


Anyways, on a tangent, do you keep your notes on this Whiteleaf campaign anywhere? I'd love to take a look at them, as I like Greyhawk overall, but really think it could do a lot better without some of the more silly stuff.

I have yet to do a formal writeup, but have been increasingly thinking one is called for. I'm a bit leery of some of the legal issues involved, but mostly my not having done it yet is more laziness than anything.


This thread seems like it's getting totally derailed.

I do tend to have that effect....

[Morph Bark]

Fiend Folio is canonical? I had thought otherwise.

It's from an official book, hence it is canon, yes. All official books are (barring campaign setting-specific ones, since we're concerned with the default setting here), hence why I say that all the things in those books exist unless otherwise specified. By this I mean unless otherwise specified by the DM. The DM has the final say about the world, but until that is given, the default applies. In many cases this will mean that a lot of things from the books aren't canon, because the DM does not have access to that book or does not like that book.

Thus I agree with everything Larkan has said, other than his notion that "there is no canon DnD". There is. DMs are simply free to ignore it.


Back to the important matter though, if there would be "greater" Voldur (as these would clearly be the "lesser" ones, or rather the standard ones), what extras would they get? Would they be a wholly different race or would standard Voldur be able to become greater Voldur through a ritual (a la Dragonwrought Kobold)?

In the latter case I'd suggest the ritual give them an additional +2 Str and allow them to treat noninitiator classes as granting 3/4 initiator levels rather than 1/2.

In the former case I'd replace their low-light vision for darkvision out to 60 ft, give +2 Str and remove the Wisdom penalty, as well as allowing them to "retrain" their Steel Wind for higher level maneuvers from Iron Heart, their effective initiator level for that maneuver being equal to their level. LA+1?

[willpell]

In the latter case I'd suggest the ritual give them an additional +2 Str and allow them to treat noninitiator classes as granting 3/4 initiator levels rather than 1/2.

That's a rather mathy option and of little value until levels get high.


In the former case I'd replace their low-light vision for darkvision out to 60 ft

That's not a strictly for-the-better trade though. LLV potentially gives you the ability to see much further away with a moderately decent light source. I think they should keep both; that would put them about on a par with Drow, who have darkvision 120.

[danzibr]

Couple things.

Hey Vilpich, is this race totally done? I mean, are you absolutely satisfied with it? Just wondering.

Well, the first arc of my 3-20 campaign is nearing completion. I expect another 2 weeks until it's 100% (or as close to 100% a DM can actually get a campaign). And as I mentioned, I'd like to test it out as a brief all-Voldur campaign. It'll be pretty standard stuff and bring the party from 3 to 6. I'm posting here to see if people are still interested (or if there's any new interest). I don't want to post in the actual PbP place because I'm not actually ready to run it yet.

Also, as a heads up, my maps are crude, like reminiscent of NES games. They get the point across though.

[Virdish]

Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.

[Empedocles]

Couple things.

Hey Vilpich, is this race totally done? I mean, are you absolutely satisfied with it? Just wondering.

Well, the first arc of my 3-20 campaign is nearing completion. I expect another 2 weeks until it's 100% (or as close to 100% a DM can actually get a campaign). And as I mentioned, I'd like to test it out as a brief all-Voldur campaign. It'll be pretty standard stuff and bring the party from 3 to 6. I'm posting here to see if people are still interested (or if there's any new interest). I don't want to post in the actual PbP place because I'm not actually ready to run it yet.

Also, as a heads up, my maps are crude, like reminiscent of NES games. They get the point across though.

Sweet! :smallbiggrin: And yeah, they're completely finished, although PEACHes are always welcome.


Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.

That'd be pretty cool.

[danzibr]

Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.
Hmm. Yeah, I remember seeing his Half-Orc homebrew. Originally I meant for it to be all-Voldur for playtesting reasons, but... I'll think about it. Might be cool, a band of misfit Orc hybrids.

[Empedocles]

Hmm. Yeah, I remember seeing his Half-Orc homebrew. Originally I meant for it to be all-Voldur for playtesting reasons, but... I'll think about it. Might be cool, a band of misfit Orc hybrids.

Just don't expect a good party face.

[danzibr]

Just don't expect a good party face.
Lol yeah. Or if we stick with Voldur a good healer. I'm sure it can be done but those penalties hurt.

[willpell]

Just don't expect a good party face.

Sharakim (Races of Destiny).

[Empedocles]

Sharakim (Races of Destiny).

Uh, not if the party is voldur and sangavido only :smallconfused:

[willpell]

No, but it would still qualify as all-orc, which I thought might be close enough.

[danzibr]

Right, currently all-Voldur.

[Empedocles]

No, but it would still qualify as all-orc, which I thought might be close enough.

At the absolute most, it'll be sangavido and voldur exclusive (as far as I understand), and probably just voldur.

[danzibr]

As promised, all-Voldur campaign. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13368168#post13368168)

[Cipher Stars]

0-0
*thinks*
Well. Now if you can find an image of a female one, I think I know what my next character's race is going to be.
*Already tried >.>*

I think its a really good image, and I couldn't dream up a more perfect union for a half elf half orc.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

I know I'm a bit late to the party but I just came across this thread through google and I love the concept.

Not really too into the whole numbercrunch aspects of the game, I just have this little bit of flavor to contribute.

"What are you called?"
"Vol dur."
"Greetings then, Voldur. And what is your kind called?"
"Vol dur."
"You and your kind are both named Voldur?"
"It's orc tongue. It means Just me."
"Huh?"
"There are no others like me. There is just me."

[Chuck_Man]

Sorry to res an old post but I have really enjoyed playing this race over the last year since I saw your post, circumstances have changed and I'm no longer with my 3.5 group, but I've found a 5e group, which will be letting me DM after this current campaign is over, in the world I am creating humans have only existed to about 100 years, most other races have living people who can remember the first human. I was wondering if it would be ok for me to convert this race to a 5e race or at least try to, so that I can offer it to the players an a more common alternate then the standard half orc. Thanks in advance for a response, and as I said, love the race.

[commander panda]

you should probably send him a PM. this is a good way to get the thread locked.