a Fighter class you'll want to play till 20th level

[eclipsic]

Fighter



Those behind cry, "FORWARD!" Those in front cry, "BACK!"

Every world has its legends, and in most of those worlds, those legends are fighters. Whether they be glorious champions or vile miscreants, they cut a swath through the lesser personages of the world. They demonstrate their battle prowess by making it look easy; nothing is quite so disconcerting and disheartening as seeing a fighter on the battlefield, effortlessly wading through an army of foes, and seeing those foes cut to ribbons, pushed around, knocked down, disarmed, their armor and weapons smashed to useless metal shards. A true fighter is a terror and a beauty to behold, a shining paragon of martial ferocity that makes even the most vicious barbarian reconsider his charge, the most self-righteous paladin think twice about smiting, the most adept monk pause to consider his path, and the most stealthy rogue decide that maybe today just isn't the day to attempt to sneak attack the enemy commander.

Just a few words on what I do and do not hope to accomplish with this class.

I want:
1.) a tier 3 fighter.
2.) a fighter that actually excels at what I consider a fighter's niche: focused, on-demand battlefield control.
3.) a fighter that has a lot of options in his bailiwick, and can do most of them better than just about any other character.
4.) a fighter that does non-negligible damage in addition to battlefield control.
5.) a fighter with excellent physical defenses
6.) every group of adventurers to say, "OK, now we just need a fighter, and we're good to go."

I do not want:
1.) a fighter that dodges like a rogue or resists magic like a monk
2.) a fighter that will out-damage a barbarian or warblade
3.) a supernatural fighter with abilities that feel like superpowers; everything my fighter can do, I want to be able to imagine a non-fantasy character doing.
4.) a fighter that does precision-based damage

[EDIT1: Based on a lot of feedback, I've added skill points, more skills, removed the ACP from his class skills, and given him the ability to sleep in his armor. I also went with a more "savvy warrior" style, and gave him Knowledge Devotion, plus the ability to share the bonuses from Knowledge Devotion with his party, to give him a small but of combat buffing. More to come, no doubt.]

[EDIT2: Changed martial flurry to grant better iterative attacks rather than more, less accurate attacks.]


Adventures: Fighters adventure because they're good at it. They've devoted themselves to the martial art, and while they're ultimately most at home on a battlefield, being a soldier doesn't pay as much as adventuring. Fighters excel at their art because battle thrills their soul, and there's nothing quite so satisfying and invigorating as successfully demonstrating their skill in the arena of the dungeon.

Characteristics: Fighters are melee combatants. They are competent ranged attackers, but they really shine in face-to-face combat. They don't draw on supernatural power to achieve their goals; they rely on their skills to perform extraordinary feats of martial artistry. Fighters weave body, blade and armor into a single-minded, fierce maelstrom of battlefield dominance.

Religion: A fighter who hears only the call of battle pays little attention to the calls of gods.

Background: Fighters can come from any background; all armies are willing to train any able-bodied volunteer. When a fighter realizes his true calling, usually in his first battle, it matters not if he is a noble, peasant or merchant by birth, thereafter he is only a Fighter.

Races: All races have a niche for a warrior, so all races produce fighters. The more domineering and/or savage races might produce more of them, but even pleasant gnome warrens and idyllic halfling villages still need the skills a fighter offers. Obviously, some races are better suited to fighting than others, but the fighter's skill is what sets him apart, and not his height, strength or speed.

Other Classes: Fighters get along well with most other classes. Spellcasters appreciate the fighter's ability to hold the line, from behind which the spellcasters can safely ply their trade. Rogues, ninjas, rangers, scouts and other highly-mobile classes are free to roam the battlefield while the fighter controls it. Paladins, martial adepts, monks and barbarians feel a camaraderie and not a tiny bit of awe at the skill of their fighter brethren. Fighters, being of very mundane (although highly-effective) skills, tend to appreciate the otherworldly abilities of their spellcasting comrades. While they might not respect the fighting style of the more mobile classes, the non-combat skills of those classes tend to come in handy, so fighters recognize their usefulness to a group.

Role: Fighters dish out punishment and take it, but mostly what they do is control the battlefield. They keep the enemy in front of the front line, and the squishies behind it. Fighters have a slew of abilities to reduce the ability of opponents to move freely about the battlefield. The have even more abilities that make an opponent pay for even trying.

Adaptation: The fighter fits in any game or setting. They are the most iconic class in the game.

GAME RULE INFORMATION

Fighters have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Fighters greatly benefit from a high Strength score. It aids attacks, damage, and the combat maneuvers at which they excel. Constitution is also useful, to add hit points, which a fighter tends to burn through steadily. Dexterity can be useful, allowing better initiative scores, Refelx saves and ranged attack bonuses. A fighter doesn't get many skill points, and has a few class skills that can useful to max out, so a little extra intelligence can help on that score.

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10
Starting Age: As fighter.
Starting Gold: As fighter.

Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information(Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any four corresponding to creature types) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Listen(Wis), Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Martial Mastery

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|1st Favored Weapon

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Favored Weapon Reflexes, Uncanny Dodge

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|I Thought You'd Be Taller (1 step), Iron Jaw

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Large and in Charge

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|Martial Flurry (one extra attack)

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|Improved Martial Mastery

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2|2nd Favored Weapon

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|I Thought You'd Be Taller (2 steps), Improved Uncanny Dodge

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|Stolen Initiative

11th|
+11|
+7|
+3|
+3|Martial Flurry (two extra attacks)

12th|
+12|
+8|
+4|
+4|Superior Martial Mastery

13th|
+13|
+8|
+4|
+4|3rd Favored Weapon

14th|
+14|
+9|
+4|
+4|I Thought You'd Be Taller (3 steps)

15th|
+15|
+9|
+5|
+5|Ubiquitous Blade

16th|
+16|
+10|
+5|
+5|Martial Flurry (three extra attacks)

17th|
+17|
+10|
+5|
+5|Initiative Opportunist

18th|
+18|
+11|
+6|
+6|4th Favored Weapon

19th|
+19|
+11|
+6|
+6|I Thought You'd Be Taller (4 steps)

20th|
+20|
+12|
+6|
+6|Sudden Death[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armor, and all shields, including tower shields.

Martial Mastery (Ex):A fighter is good at fighting. Any nitwit barbarian with a great-axe can inflict heavy damage, but a true fighter controls the battlefield as well as inflicting damage. A fighter gains Improved Trip, Improved Disarm and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he does not have the required prerequisites.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, the fighter gains Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Favored Weapon (Ex):A fighter is competent with all weapons, but he truly masters very few of them. At 2nd level, a fighter chooses a weapon, such as a greatsword, with which he has become proficient prior to this point in his career (mechanically, he must be proficient in the weapon; fluff-wise, he has to have used the weapon for a significant portion of the previous levels of his career). When wielding that type of weapon, he gains a +2 bonus to attack, damage, the opposed Strength roll to Trip (this does not give a weapon the ability to be used to trip), and Intimidate checks to demoralize an opponent in melee. He can also choose, on his turn, to apply some or all of this bonus as a shield bonus to AC. At 8th, 13th, and 18th level, the fighter can apply an additional +2 to an existing weapon type, and chooses a new, different weapon to gain an initial +2. This works much like the ranger's Favored Enemy, with the obvious differences outlined above.

Second Skin (Ex): A fighter isn't just a schmuck with 4-stone of metal on his back, his armor is part and parcel of his livelihood. Fighters ignore the Armor Check Penalty for their class skills, and can sleep in armor without penalty.

Favored Weapon Reflexes (Ex):A fighter can make a number of AoOs each round equal to half the favored weapon bonus of the weapon he is wielding. This ability stacks with Combat Reflexes.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):As the rogue ability.

I Thought You'd Be Taller (Ex):A fighter relies on skill more than brute force, which surprises those larger creatures who would otherwise expect to physically overwhelm the smaller fighter. At 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver on a larger opponent (or defending against same), a fighter is treated as if he were one size larger than he is. At 9th level, a fighter is treated as if he were two sizes larger than he is, at 14th level, three sizes larger, and finally, at 19th level, he is considered 4 sizes larger than normal. The largest a fighter can be considered is Colossal. A fighter is also considered to be this size when qualifying for feats related to combat maneuvers and for using them (such as Awesome Blow, which requires Large size and Improved Bull Rush).

Iron Jaw (Ex):At 4th level, a fighter has a 25% chance of negating extra damage from critical hits. At 10th level, he has a 50% chance to negate the extra damage. At 16th level, he has a 75% chance to negate the damage.

Large and in Charge (Ex):At 5th level, a fighter gains the feat Large and in Charge as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. He can apply the feat to AoO's provoked by his Ubiquitous Blade class feature (when he gets it). He can also apply his Favored Weapon bonus to the resulting opposed Strength check, and he counts his size according to his I Thought You'd Be Taller ability.

Fore-warned is Fore-armed (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter can share the insight granted by his Knowledge Devotion feat with his allies; all allies within 30' gain the same bonus that Knowledge Devotion grants the fighter.

Martial Flurry (Ex):Beginning at 6th level, a fighter's iterative attacks are made at a -2 penalty instead of a -5 penalty. So, at 16th level, instead of his base attack bonus being +16/+11/+6/+1, it becomes +/16/+14/+12/+10.

Improved Martial Mastery (Ex):At 7th level, a fighter's mastery of the basic combat maneuvers improves. Whenever he successfully trips an opponent and hits with the follow-up attack, the opponent becomes sickened for 1 round. When a fighter successfully disarms an opponent, the fighter can make a single attack against the opponent, using the opponent's weapon. The fighter uses his own highest attack bonus, but the damage is based on the opponent's weapon. When a fighter successfully bull rushes an opponent, the fighter does not have to move with the opponent, and the opponent is knocked prone.

Stolen Initiative (Ex):At 10th level, once per round, a fighter who successfully attacks an opponent with an initiative score lower than his own can move that opponent to one higher than the fighter in the initiative order, effectively robbing that opponent of its turn. .

Superior Martial Mastery (Ex):At 12th level, a fighter's martial mastery becomes almost supernatural. When he successfully trips an opponent, instead of becoming sickened, the opponent become nauseated for 1 round. When a fighter successfully disarms an opponent and strikes the opponent with its own weapon, the opponent must make a successful Fort save vs the damage dealt or become dazed for 1 round. When a fighter successfully bull rushes an opponent and knocks it prone, it must make a Fort save vs 10 + ½ fighter's level + Str bonus or be stunned for 1 round.

Ubiquitous Blade (Ex):A fighter knows his battlefield well, and sometimes seems to be everywhere at once. At 15th level, a fighter adds 10' to his reach. The fighter does not actually grow longer arms or become physically possible of greater reach, he is simply capable of darting out of his square and making attacks further away than his natural reach might allow. Therefore, he must 1.) be capable of movement and 2.) be capable of moving into a square from which he can make an attack, disregarding this extra 10' of reach. For instance, if a fighter already had 10' reach (e.g.: from being Large size), he could attack an opponent up to 20' feet away, but only if he is physically capable of moving to within 10' of the target and making an attack against the target from there. The fighter returns to his position after the attack. This movement is not considered movement, so does not use up an action and does not provoke an AoO (even if any movement would do so (re: Thicket of Blades)). Also, any movement out of a square adjacent to the fighter provokes an AoO, even if it would not normally do so (re: Thicket of Blades). The fighter's own Ubiquitous Blade ability does not provoke AoOs in this manner (in the case that two fighters are adjacent to each other).

Initiative Opportunist (Ex):A fighter knows how to make the best out of a winning initiative. At 17h level, in the first round of combat, if a fighter successfully attacks an opponent who has a lower initiative score than he does, he can move himself to one lower than that foe's initiative after his turn. If, on his next turn, at his new, lower initiative score, he successfully attacks another foe with a lower initiative score, he can apply this ability again. The fighter can keep using this ability in the first round of combat as long as he can keep successfully attacking opponents with subsequently lower initiative scores.

Sudden Death (Ex):It is a very bad idea to be near a fighter when you become incapacitated. At 20th level, an opponent who becomes becomes eligible to be coup de graced (by becoming paralyzed, held, unconscious or any other condition/circumstance that satisfies the conditions for a coup de grace) provokes an AoO from any fighter who threatens their space, and a fighter can choose to perform a coup de grace on that opponent in place of the regular allowed AoO. This attack does not, itself, provoke an AoO as a coup de grace normally would. The fighter, must, of course, have an available AoO to us against the opponent, and must be able to make the attack, as normal.

[Yitzi]

A few points:
1. I Thought You'd Be Taller probably should be capped at an effective size equal to the opponents. i.e. a level 9 fighter trying to trip an ogre is still only considered large.
2. Stolen Initiative should also be usable against someone with an initiative score higher than the fighter (e.g. to delay their turn until after a third person).

Overall, seems pretty good though.

[Empedocles]

Interesting. Definitely one of the best fighter fixes that doesn't resort to maneuvers or spells in disguise. However, I'd suggest adding more battlefield control. Maybe the ability to knock enemies he hits with a special attack 5 ft. back for every point of strength modifier he possesses? That sounds kind of bad after I wrote it...but yeah definitely more control.

Still, very nice job.

[Fitz10019]

I Thought You'd Be Taller -- great name -- it may be more elegant to word this as the fighter negating the opponent's size bonus (as applied to himself). That way, no one would confuse whether this ability grants reach or qualifies you for feats.

Initiative Opportunist
I think this needs an example. If I understand it as stated, a fighter facing 3 opponents with lower initiatives could get his turn (and his full attack) 4 times in one round.

Init 18: Fighter Bob
Init 15: Troll
Init 12: Ettin
Init 8: Bugbear

Round 1:
Bob has his turn. Bob hits Troll, and moves his own Init to 15b.
Troll has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again. Bob hits Ettin, and moves his own Init to 12b.
Ettin has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again (#3). Bob hits Bugbear, and moves his own Init to 8b.
Bugbear has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again (#4).

Round 2:
Troll has it's turn.
Ettin has it's turn.
Bugbear has it's turn.
Bob has his turn.

If this is correct, I think it's awkward socially -- in the community of players. Bob's player getting 4 turns in that first round of combat is pretty boring for the other players, especially considering how many attacks he gets, combining his BAB 19 and Martial Flurry.

One thing to consider is WHEN Bob should activate this init-switch power. The choice should be required immediately at the event of a successful hit, thereby ending the current 'turn.' Otherwise, as currently written, he can full attack the Troll, hit 3 times, miss the last time, and still activate the init-switch and get another full turn later. If the power required an immediate decision, he'd have to weigh the advantage of switching against his likelihood of hitting again with a later iterative attack (at it's lower BAB).


2. Stolen Initiative should also be usable against someone with an initiative score higher than the fighter (e.g. to delay their turn until after a third person).

I think it's designed as a one-way street intentionally, to limit its application, and the application of Initiative Opportunist. I think that is the right way to do it.

Edit: Also note, though, if Bob later has a turn where he can only get a standard action (due to battlefield positioning or spell effects), he can phrase it as a readied action based on whoever is at the top of the initiative, and thereby get a chance to re-create the Round 1 situation and top-of-the-order advantage. If the Bugbear trips Bob in round 2, he can stand up and declare a readied action to attack the Troll when it blinks. Then Round 4 could be just like Round 1.

[Roc Ness]

I like this, it has some of the most original ideas I've seen. (Especially Stolen Initiative and Initiative Oppourtunist, I love playing with Initiative ideas in homebrew and I wish I'dve thought of it.)

For critique, may I suggest giving the Fighter slightly more bonus feats so as to allow a bit more customisation for each player? As it stands, non-magic combatants already have many chain feats and feat trees, many of which require some investment to gain the benefits of.

In regards to your aim... I would say you've achieved most of them? I would say though, however, maybe it needs a few more options? Right now, I would say that it's on the lower Tier Three in the tier spectrum. While it has combat maneuvers going for it, as well as the unique and powerful Initiative abilities, I find that most of the other Tier Three classes are still more versatile overall, and that right now, the class is at a similar level to the Duskblade (albeit in a different direction).

A final thought, what is your opinion on combating flyers?

[Falin]

One thing to consider is WHEN Bob should activate this init-switch power. The choice should be required immediately at the event of a successful hit, thereby ending the current 'turn.' Otherwise, as currently written, he can full attack the Troll, hit 3 times, miss the last time, and still activate the init-switch and get another full turn later. If the power required an immediate decision, he'd have to weigh the advantage of switching against his likelihood of hitting again with a later iterative attack (at it's lower BAB)

The problem with this is that Bob knows he's only ever going to get two attacks in on a full attack. I seriously ran the numbers on this and it is literally impossible for a fighter to hit (baring a nat 20) with their third and beyond attack at any level without serious help and anything beyond second is extremely tenuous. Assuming an equal CRd opponent. So even if you were to implement that you'd still have the multiple turns problem, Bob would just be trying to make two attacks per turn. This of course, being dependent on all his opponents being close enough for him to full attack.

A note on flying enemies. If you can't fly past fifth level you need to sit down and have a chat with your GM about loot. Usually I have no opinion on the magic item Christmas tree. But flight is a thing fifth level characters should be able to do somehow. A fifth level wizard casts overland flight in the morning and stays in the air for pretty much all day and that turns into literally all day as the levels go on. Raptorans learn to fly at 5 hd, the Redwall homebrew on this forum gives birds full flight at around 5 hd, there's not much to draw from, just a single race and a monster class. But the votes are in, and the indications clear. If you're level five, it's time to learn to fly.

[Straybow]

A fifth level wizard casts overland flight in the morning and stays in the air for pretty much all day and that turns into literally all day as the levels go on. Ummm, overland flight is a 5th level spell...

[Falin]

That's right, jesus I need to learn to not post until I'm awake. Fly, they cast fly at fifth level. And can be in the air for any given combat. And then fly all day at 9th level. The difference? Wizards use more spell slots at level 5 to fly all day than at level 10.

[Hiro Protagonest]

3.) a supernatural fighter with abilities that feel like superpowers; everything my fighter can do, I want to be able to imagine a non-fantasy character doing.
By that, do you mean you don't want anything other than normal human abilities turned up to 11 (like Beowulf and Hercules), or that they can't advance to a power level higher than the SEALs, the best military strike force in the country, and possibly the world? Because if the latter, SEALs are level 3-6 rangers, and shouldn't be a point of comparison.

[Averis Vol]

By that, do you mean you don't want anything other than normal human abilities turned up to 11 (like Beowulf and Hercules), or that they can't advance to a power level higher than the SEALs, the best military strike force in the country, and possibly the world? Because if the latter, SEALs are level 3-6 rangers, and shouldn't be a point of comparison.

i don't think he wants demigods running around, as in the case of Hercules. Beowulf just fought trolls from the stories i remember, so that's acceptable.

to the point of the class, two thumbs up, this gives the class more of an iconic feel without resorting to magic, as was stated. i do think he needs a few more skill points, a fighter should be more skilled then a barbarian at the very least. :smallyuk: and maybe on opening for some more physical skills like tumble, hide, move silently, etc. he should be able to move around without completely screwing over the rogue with his clanky ass, seen it happen far to many times where the meatshield couldn't protect a rogue in the other room because he'd blow his cover.

[Hiro Protagonest]

i don't think he wants demigods running around, as in the case of Hercules. Beowulf just fought trolls from the stories i remember, so that's acceptable.

Beowulf swam across an ocean, fully armored, as a swimming contest, and claims he would've won if he hadn't stopped to hold his breath for hours for a fight underwater.

[eclipsic]

By that, do you mean you don't want anything other than normal human abilities turned up to 11 (like Beowulf and Hercules)

I'm very OK with heroic extraordinary feats, I just don't want traveling AMFs, laser beams from the eyes or soul-draining grapples.

[Wyntonian]

First, I want to make it clear that this is a pretty cool class. Well designed, a good focus on reaching your goals, all kinds of good stuff. In the midst of all the things that made me go "Aahh, yes, quite, quite" while stroking my beard in admiration, this one little thing poked at me.


Martial Mastery (Ex):A fighter is good at fighting. Any nitwit barbarian with a great-axe can inflict heavy damage, but a true fighter controls the battlefield as well as inflicting damage. A fighter gains Improved Trip, Improved Disarm and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he does not have the required prerequisites.

Oh my dipping Asmodeus on a stick.

If I was playing any sort of character with a martial bent, I'd dip 1 level in this class, just for three free feats. Hell, if I was playing a character who was planning on doing the Dark Chaos Shuffle Dance, I'd dip a level of this. Now, I'm all for giving fighters a bone, but this is an invitation to make this a 1-level class, which I don't think you want.

Maybe a higher level? I dunno. I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's worth some thought.

Oh, and I feel like Imp. Grapple should be in there. I've never bull rushed in my life, but I built a 1st level character with a +12 grappling bonus, so there ya go. Consider it, anyway.

[eclipsic]

A few points:
1. I Thought You'd Be Taller probably should be capped at an effective size equal to the opponents. i.e. a level 9 fighter trying to trip an ogre is still only considered large.

I considered this, and then I realized that I really wanted my fighter to, forgive the quote, "Be the best there is at what he does." Since being bigger not only gives you a flat-out bonus to combat maneuvers (in most cases), but also gives you a strength increase (+8 per size category), which contributes to the opposed strength check, the fighter would always be falling behind, so even if he could cancel out the size difference, a 19th level fighter would still fall way behind on his strength checks (by -4 per size category), which means one of his primary abilities becomes progressively more useless. If I give the fighter progressively larger size bonuses, he's on even footing against a Large creature when his I Thought You'd be Taller equivalent is Huge, he's even against a Huge creature when his ITYBT equivalent is Colossal, and he only suffers a -8 against that Colossal critter at the same level. It just seemed to be a good way to keep the ability relevant over the lifetime of the fighter.



2. Stolen Initiative should also be usable against someone with an initiative score higher than the fighter (e.g. to delay their turn until after a third person).

I really wanted it to be like that "jump out of the starting gate" that is represented by winning initiative. As in, "I got the better of you so quickly, that you have to wait until next turn to act." I don't think that some flavor would apply backwards in the initiative.



Overall, seems pretty good though.

Thanks! After seeing Grod_the_Giant's fighter fix this evening, I was a a little disappointed and discouraged, since mine seems like a carbon copy of his, but I've got a little bit of different flavor, and I've also decided to go with the "savvy warrior" concept to make it a little more effective outside of combat.

[eclipsic]

First, I want to make it clear that this is a pretty cool class. Well designed, a good focus on reaching your goals, all kinds of good stuff. In the midst of all the things that made me go "Aahh, yes, quite, quite" while stroking my beard in admiration, this one little thing poked at me.

Thanks! I'm glad it's getting such positive reactions.




Oh my dipping Asmodeus on a stick.

If I was playing any sort of character with a martial bent, I'd dip 1 level in this class, just for three free feats. Hell, if I was playing a character who was planning on doing the Dark Chaos Shuffle Dance, I'd dip a level of this. Now, I'm all for giving fighters a bone, but this is an invitation to make this a 1-level class, which I don't think you want.

Maybe a higher level? I dunno. I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's worth some thought.

It did occur to me, and then I thought, "If you want to make a hellacious tripping, bull rushing, disarming fiend of a character, is there a class that does it better than this one? If there is, then I haven't done my job correctly." Granted, there are probably some builds that could be a better tripper, or a better bull rusher, or a better disarmer, but there are going to be very few that are going to be better at all three, or even just two, in which case, a dip into traditional fighter will give the relevant bonus feat that you need for your build.



Oh, and I feel like Imp. Grapple should be in there. I've never bull rushed in my life, but I built a 1st level character with a +12 grappling bonus, so there ya go. Consider it, anyway.

Yeah, I went with Imp. Grapple first, then Imp. Sunder, then both, then neither. Honestly, I could go either way. I originally wanted to leave grappling for the monk builds and bull-rushing for the barbarians, but then I tried imagining in my mind all the movie scenes I'd seen with hectic fighters in them, and although I saw a lot of pushing about, and disarming, and tripping, and even unarmed strikes, I didn't see much sundering (except for finale scene where the hero breaks the villain's weapon just before running him through) or grappling, so I left those out. I could still stick either or both of them in there and still make it fit, though.

[eclipsic]

Interesting. Definitely one of the best fighter fixes that doesn't resort to maneuvers or spells in disguise. However, I'd suggest adding more battlefield control. Maybe the ability to knock enemies he hits with a special attack 5 ft. back for every point of strength modifier he possesses? That sounds kind of bad after I wrote it...but yeah definitely more control.

Still, very nice job.

Always nice to be "one of the best"! I like your idea, and I think there's actually a monster feat that does something similar...like Awesome Blow or Crushing Blow or something like that. I think two of the prerequisites are Improved Bull Rush and "size Large or larger" which makes it sound like it might be a yummy addition to the I Thought You'd Be Taller ability, like "You are considered to be this size for the purpose of taking feats that relate to the Martial Mastery abilities."

[eclipsic]

I Thought You'd Be Taller -- great name -- it may be more elegant to word this as the fighter negating the opponent's size bonus (as applied to himself). That way, no one would confuse whether this ability grants reach or qualifies you for feats.


Yeah, I'm obviously going to have to re-word that.



Initiative Opportunist
I think this needs an example. If I understand it as stated, a fighter facing 3 opponents with lower initiatives could get his turn (and his full attack) 4 times in one round.

Init 18: Fighter Bob
Init 15: Troll
Init 12: Ettin
Init 8: Bugbear

Round 1:
Bob has his turn. Bob hits Troll, and moves his own Init to 15b.
Troll has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again. Bob hits Ettin, and moves his own Init to 12b.
Ettin has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again (#3). Bob hits Bugbear, and moves his own Init to 8b.
Bugbear has it's turn.
Bob has his turn again (#4).

Round 2:
Troll has it's turn.
Ettin has it's turn.
Bugbear has it's turn.
Bob has his turn.

If this is correct, I think it's awkward socially -- in the community of players. Bob's player getting 4 turns in that first round of combat is pretty boring for the other players, especially considering how many attacks he gets, combining his BAB 19 and Martial Flurry.

I never considered the social aspect of it, but something that may mitigate all of your critiques (which I definitely consider legitimate and useful) is that, in every group I've ever played in, the players do not know the initiative scores of the opponents. We can, of course, divine where the opponents' scores lie, by dint of observation, but that's not going to happen before the first round, so Initiative Opportunist is really a crapshoot. Sure, the situation described might happen, but it's much more likely that the fighter will end up attacking the ettin or bugbear first (leave the troll to the duskblade with Combust), so the effect he gets out of the ability, while always useful, is rarely a perfect-case scenario. As with all abilities, YMMV, especially if your DM tells you the opponents' initiative scores.

And now that you mention it, yeah, he could get a bejesusload of attacks that first round, but it's not like he's getting them all in a row (or, at least, probably not) and it's only the first round, so after that, it's "a turn for everybody, and everybody on his turn" again...well, except for all the AoOs....hmmm...




One thing to consider is WHEN Bob should activate this init-switch power. The choice should be required immediately at the event of a successful hit, thereby ending the current 'turn.' Otherwise, as currently written, he can full attack the Troll, hit 3 times, miss the last time, and still activate the init-switch and get another full turn later. If the power required an immediate decision, he'd have to weigh the advantage of switching against his likelihood of hitting again with a later iterative attack (at it's lower BAB).


I guess I got myself between a rock and a hard place, here, because if I give Bob the full attack, he will be hectic if he gets his ducks in a row, but if I don't give him a full attack, and he chooses the lowest opponent in the initiative order on his first attack, he's actually worse off than if he hadn't used the ability at all. I'll have to reconsider the mechanics a bit.





I think it's designed as a one-way street intentionally, to limit its application, and the application of Initiative Opportunist. I think that is the right way to do it.

It is, indeed.



Edit: Also note, though, if Bob later has a turn where he can only get a standard action (due to battlefield positioning or spell effects), he can phrase it as a readied action based on whoever is at the top of the initiative, and thereby get a chance to re-create the Round 1 situation and top-of-the-order advantage. If the Bugbear trips Bob in round 2, he can stand up and declare a readied action to attack the Troll when it blinks. Then Round 4 could be just like Round 1.

Not sure if you didn't notice the "only in the first round" stipulation in Initiative Opportunist, or if I'm not noticing a loophole...either way, you had lots of good things to say, and I appreciate the feedback!

[eclipsic]

I like this, it has some of the most original ideas I've seen. (Especially Stolen Initiative and Initiative Oppourtunist, I love playing with Initiative ideas in homebrew and I wish I'dve thought of it.)


Great to hear! Thanks!



For critique, may I suggest giving the Fighter slightly more bonus feats so as to allow a bit more customisation for each player? As it stands, non-magic combatants already have many chain feats and feat trees, many of which require some investment to gain the benefits of.


I really dislike bonus feats as class features, which is why I gave my fighter so many feat++ abilities -- to be flavorful as well as useful. Sure, there are things you can stack on the fighter's abilities, but he has a couple dozen feats worth of abilities already, and he gets feats just like any character. I don't know. A lot of people are asking about bonus feats, and I'm still on the fence, but at least now I'm teetering.




In regards to your aim... I would say you've achieved most of them? I would say though, however, maybe it needs a few more options? Right now, I would say that it's on the lower Tier Three in the tier spectrum. While it has combat maneuvers going for it, as well as the unique and powerful Initiative abilities, I find that most of the other Tier Three classes are still more versatile overall, and that right now, the class is at a similar level to the Duskblade (albeit in a different direction).

I agree. Even the duskblade has more versatility, with Dispel Magic, Swift Fly, Swift Invisibility, etc etc. I've added some more skills and skills points, and a couple of new abilities, but I definitely need something else, without departing entirely from the concept.



A final thought, what is your opinion on combating flyers?
Hadn't really thought about it. When I think of "fighter", I think of being on the ground, charging around a battlefield. If there are griffonriders overhead, the ranger and wizard can deal with them. If there are no other opponents, the fighter is competent enough with a bow (and can actually be pretty damn good with a bow, if he chooses it as his second favored weapon). No character is an island, though, and that's why people join parties, to overcome each other's weaknesses.

[eclipsic]

The problem with this is that Bob knows he's only ever going to get two attacks in on a full attack. I seriously ran the numbers on this and it is literally impossible for a fighter to hit (baring a nat 20) with their third and beyond attack at any level without serious help and anything beyond second is extremely tenuous. Assuming an equal CRd opponent. So even if you were to implement that you'd still have the multiple turns problem, Bob would just be trying to make two attacks per turn. This of course, being dependent on all his opponents being close enough for him to full attack.

When I first read this, I thought, "What?!? that can't be right!" and then I ran the numbers myself, and you're totally correct. I think what I may do, instead of adding multiple attacks at lower base bonuses, I'll beef up the existing lower base bonus attacks, so at level 16, he's making 4 attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16 instead of +16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. I think he may actually hit for more damage the first way than the second, in spite of having 4 attacks instead of 7.



A note on flying enemies. If you can't fly past fifth level you need to sit down and have a chat with your GM about loot. Usually I have no opinion on the magic item Christmas tree. But flight is a thing fifth level characters should be able to do somehow. A fifth level wizard casts overland flight in the morning and stays in the air for pretty much all day and that turns into literally all day as the levels go on. Raptorans learn to fly at 5 hd, the Redwall homebrew on this forum gives birds full flight at around 5 hd, there's not much to draw from, just a single race and a monster class. But the votes are in, and the indications clear. If you're level five, it's time to learn to fly.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one, although honestly, I've not run across a huge amount of flying enemies in my 30 years of playing, for whatever reason. Maybe it's all those low dungeon ceilings :smallbiggrin:

[eclipsic]

i don't think he wants demigods running around, as in the case of Hercules. Beowulf just fought trolls from the stories i remember, so that's acceptable.

to the point of the class, two thumbs up, this gives the class more of an iconic feel without resorting to magic, as was stated. i do think he needs a few more skill points, a fighter should be more skilled then a barbarian at the very least. :smallyuk: and maybe on opening for some more physical skills like tumble, hide, move silently, etc. he should be able to move around without completely screwing over the rogue with his clanky ass, seen it happen far to many times where the meatshield couldn't protect a rogue in the other room because he'd blow his cover.

Thanks for the encouragement! I agree with your assessment, and I've added more skill points (equal to the barbarian), more skills, and a few other tidbits...still looking for something flavorful and effective for non-combat situations. Maybe something like adding BAB to certain social situations, like Diplomacy with the serjeant of the guard and things of like nature.

[Straybow]

I considered this, and then I realized that I really wanted my fighter to, forgive the quote, "Be the best there is at what he does." Since being bigger not only gives you a flat-out bonus to combat maneuvers (in most cases), but also gives you a strength increase (+8 per size category)... Hmmm? I thought a size category was double the linear dimension = x8 mass and strength = 3 doublings = +15 str.

[eclipsic]

Hmmm? I thought a size category was double the linear dimension = x8 mass and strength = 3 doublings = +15 str.

I didn't actually reference anything while making the class, but in retrospect, I checked the SRD and it seems to indicate that every size increase above medium grants a +8 increase to strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm)

[Story Time]

I'm only going to brush over some points... I'm not capable of growing full peaches yet. :smallsmile:



Every world has its legends, and in most of those worlds, those legends are fighters.[...]

An excellent start!



I Thought You'd Be Taller (Ex):

Great wording, but what does it do? Does it grant a numerical bonus? Does it grant a special ability? Is this a Zone-of-Control field in some way? ???:smallconfused:???



Stolen Initiative (Ex):

...love this idea.

[eclipsic]

Great wording, but what does it do? Does it grant a numerical bonus? Does it grant a special ability? Is this a Zone-of-Control field in some way? ???:smallconfused:???

For instance, the Bull Rush description says this: "Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. "

So, you would get that benefit.

[Yitzi]

I considered this, and then I realized that I really wanted my fighter to, forgive the quote, "Be the best there is at what he does." Since being bigger not only gives you a flat-out bonus to combat maneuvers (in most cases), but also gives you a strength increase (+8 per size category), which contributes to the opposed strength check, the fighter would always be falling behind, so even if he could cancel out the size difference, a 19th level fighter would still fall way behind on his strength checks (by -4 per size category), which means one of his primary abilities becomes progressively more useless. If I give the fighter progressively larger size bonuses, he's on even footing against a Large creature when his I Thought You'd be Taller equivalent is Huge, he's even against a Huge creature when his ITYBT equivalent is Colossal, and he only suffers a -8 against that Colossal critter at the same level. It just seemed to be a good way to keep the ability relevant over the lifetime of the fighter.

It still means that he has a higher chance of tripping an ogre than a human.

A better idea: Give him the ability to add his class level to either his size bonus (up to a maximum, counting the base and the bonus, of his opponent's size bonus) or his strength bonus (up to a maximum of his opponent's strength bonus), or split it between the two. That way it still only cancels out what the opponent gets, but will compensate for strength as well.


I really wanted it to be like that "jump out of the starting gate" that is represented by winning initiative. As in, "I got the better of you so quickly, that you have to wait until next turn to act." I don't think that some flavor would apply backwards in the initiative.

So then it only applies in the first round?

[Falin]

When I first read this, I thought, "What?!? that can't be right!" and then I ran the numbers myself, and you're totally correct. I think what I may do, instead of adding multiple attacks at lower base bonuses, I'll beef up the existing lower base bonus attacks, so at level 16, he's making 4 attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16 instead of +16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. I think he may actually hit for more damage the first way than the second, in spite of having 4 attacks instead of 7.

You may actually consider going the tome rout here. Instead of +16/+16/+16/+16, do +16/+11/+11/+11, since the second attack in the usual iterative attack order still works this makes full attacking past the second attack viable without making things TOO easy on fighters.

[Straybow]

I didn't actually reference anything while making the class, but in retrospect, I checked the SRD and it seems to indicate that every size increase above medium grants a +8 increase to strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Yes, another inconsistency in the SRD. That isn't how they actually do it when generating stats for monsters. Most large human-proportioned creatures are much more than +8 to strength compared to humans.

The carrying capacity chart ("http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) indicates that strength doubles for each +5, and d20 generates strength for monsters based on strength being proportional to mass. For example, an average 5¾' tall human has strength 10½, which they round down to 10. Larger bipeds with the same proportions are stronger based on cube of height ratio. If we take the log2 of that proportion and multiply by +5 (logarithmic scale for each doubling of strength) we get calculated adjustments that match the giant strength almost exactly:


Height Size Str Prop Log2 Adj
Human 5¾' Med 10 1.0 0.00 +0
Ogre 9' Lrg 21 3.8 1.92 +9.7
Hill Giant 10½' Lrg 25 6.1 2.61 +13.0
Stone Giant 12' Lrg 27 9.1 3.18 +15.9
Frost Giant 15' Lrg 29 17.8 4.15 +20.7
Cloud Giant 18' Huge 35 30.7 4.94 +24.7

When they include an adjustment for the monster race when played as a character it closely matches the adjustment calculated: ogre is +10, hill giant is +14, stone giant is +16.

[eclipsic]

Yes, another inconsistency in the SRD. That isn't how they actually do it when generating stats for monsters. Most large human-proportioned creatures are much more than +8 to strength compared to humans.

The carrying capacity chart ("http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) indicates that strength doubles for each +5, and d20 generates strength for monsters based on strength being proportional to mass. For example, an average 5¾' tall human has strength 10½, which they round down to 10. Larger bipeds with the same proportions are stronger based on cube of height ratio. If we take the log2 of that proportion and multiply by +5 (logarithmic scale for each doubling of strength) we get calculated adjustments that match the giant strength almost exactly:


Height Size Str Prop Log2 Adj
Human 5¾' Med 10 1.0 0.00 +0
Ogre 9' Lrg 21 3.8 1.92 +9.7
Hill Giant 10½' Lrg 25 6.1 2.61 +13.0
Stone Giant 12' Lrg 27 9.1 3.18 +15.9
Frost Giant 15' Lrg 29 17.8 4.15 +20.7
Cloud Giant 18' Huge 35 30.7 4.94 +24.7

When they include an adjustment for the monster race when played as a character it closely matches the adjustment calculated: ogre is +10, hill giant is +14, stone giant is +16.

Well, for what it's worth, your math is sound, but a giant is not just a human with size tacked on. They're intended to be stronger than expected, which is included in their description (although not in the SRD description, I notice). Does the math hold up against, for instance, dire versions of animals? I'm curious....

[eclipsic]

It still means that he has a higher chance of tripping an ogre than a human.

I don't understand. Unless you're referring to the "vs creatures larger than he is" caveat, which I took out.




So then it only applies in the first round?

No, but while you can make the argument that combat starts before the first round and continues until the end, and there's only one round in which you "get the drop on" an opponent, initiative order still feels like a "i get to go before you before I have quicker reflexes" or whatever. The mechanic still fits the flavor.

[eclipsic]

You may actually consider going the tome rout here. Instead of +16/+16/+16/+16, do +16/+11/+11/+11, since the second attack in the usual iterative attack order still works this makes full attacking past the second attack viable without making things TOO easy on fighters.

I split the difference and went +16/+14/+12/+10.

[Straybow]

Well, for what it's worth, your math is sound, but a giant is not just a human with size tacked on. They're intended to be stronger than expected, which is included in their description (although not in the SRD description, I notice). Does the math hold up against, for instance, dire versions of animals? I'm curious.... But it is a human with size tacked on, based on the racial adjustments for characters. SRD doesn't have character generation information, but I've read that example ability scores in monster stat blocks are supposed to be based on the 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 spread. So the Str listed should be 10+racial or 11+racial. It holds fairly well for almost all bipeds. E.g., gnoll racial Str is +4, and Str is listed as 15 in the stat block.

Animals are harder to stat because we don't have a good grasp of how strong a particular animal is compared to a human. A black bear (maybe 400 lb) is listed at Str 19, the listed 1800 lb brown bear is Str 27, the listed 8000 lb dire bear is Str 31. By mass the brown bear should be more than +10 above the black, and dire bear should be more than +10 above brown. One could argue that the brown bears are rarely more than 1200 lb so that the Str +8 is reasonable compared to black. The dire bear size and strength were pulled out of thin air, and maybe their guess was unreasonable.

Most animals are stronger than human athletes on a pound-for-pound comparison. A top athlete is easily twice as strong by weight than average. A chimp weighing less than an average human is stronger than any athlete, at least for things we can test. I don't know that any have been taught how to do a bench press. A 300-400 lb black bear should be stronger than any human, and by plentiful examples human extreme is at least 22.

[Fitz10019]

Martial Mastery (Ex): A fighter is good at fighting. Any nitwit barbarian with a great-axe can inflict heavy damage, but a true fighter controls the battlefield as well as inflicting damage. A fighter gains Improved Trip, Improved Disarm and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he does not have the required prerequisites.

You might let this bloom over the first 3 levels, instead of granting all these feats at level 1. In keeping with your mission of crafting a 'til-20th' class, you don't want a "hey, that's dip-tastic!" reaction.

I'm often tempted to add a "you lose this feat if you multiclass" clause to homebrew/experimental classes' features, but that's probably just me.

[Virdish]

You mind if I use this retool for my campaign setting. I suck at crunch and am trying to find a better fighter.

[eclipsic]

But it is a human with size tacked on, based on the racial adjustments for characters.

It really isn't. For one thing, a human is a Humanoid, and a giant is a Giant. Tacking size bonuses on a human doesn't turn it into a Giant.

As an extreme example, look at a hezrou: at 8' tall and 750 pounds, it has a Str score of 21. The Nalfeshnee is one size larger, at 20' tall and 8,000 pounds, so by your rationale, its strength should be much higher than the 25 it actually has. And those two critters are even of the same type, not different types like Human and Giant. And the reason for this is, that Hezrous are proportionately stronger than Nalfeshnees, for whatever reason, just like giants are proportionately stronger than humans, for whatever reason.

The giant type description even says "A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size" not "A giant is a humanoid creature grown to great size with proportionately-increased strength" It's supposed to have greater strength than its size would indicate.

[eclipsic]

You mind if I use this retool for my campaign setting. I suck at crunch and am trying to find a better fighter.

Knock yourself out. Let me know how it playtests. I have too many builds to test, and two few groups in which to test them. :smallsmile:

[eclipsic]

You might let this bloom over the first 3 levels, instead of granting all these feats at level 1. In keeping with your mission of crafting a 'til-20th' class, you don't want a "hey, that's dip-tastic!" reaction.

I'm often tempted to add a "you lose this feat if you multiclass" clause to homebrew/experimental classes' features, but that's probably just me.

That's the second time someone pointed this out, and, honestly, I don't design anything with optimizers in mind; in that direction lies insanity and futility. It might behoove me, however, to maybe grant one such maneuver at first level, then another maneuver every 5 levels or some junk. I'm still not terrifically worried about it, however. As I said before, the only reason to dip into this class is to get access to those maneuvers, and if this isn't the best class to make use of those maneuvers, I'm doing something wrong. In other words, anybody who would want to dip for these feats is better off just going the full 20 levels, IMHO.

[Yitzi]

I don't understand. Unless you're referring to the "vs creatures larger than he is" caveat, which I took out.

Ah, I didn't see you took it out. Ok, then it makes sense.


No, but while you can make the argument that combat starts before the first round and continues until the end, and there's only one round in which you "get the drop on" an opponent, initiative order still feels like a "i get to go before you before I have quicker reflexes" or whatever. The mechanic still fits the flavor.

I suppose that makes sense.

[Roc Ness]

I, uh, may want to point out the multi-quote button, Eclipsic. It's the quotation marks next to the quote button, and lets you put multiple quotes from different posters in the same post. I mention this because there is a rule about double posting and in the spirit of quoting you have posted an awful lot in rows. :smallredface:

[eclipsic]

I, uh, may want to point out the multi-quote button, Eclipsic. It's the quotation marks next to the quote button, and lets you put multiple quotes from different posters in the same post. I mention this because there is a rule about double posting and in the spirit of quoting you have posted an awful lot in rows. :smallredface:

Thank you! I'd been meaning to look up how to do that, but I'm always posting just before I have to go to work, so I never have the time. Consider me informed!

[Clawhound]

I was playing around with some of this stuff late last year. I invite you to read the essay in my sig. I did three fighter rewrites, so maybe you'll find some steal-able ideas in there.

[rgrekejin]

I really like the overall look and feel of this class, but I've got to wonder about the lack of support for ranged weaponry. A fighter with this class is a world-beater in melee, but would only be decent at best with a bow. Have you considered some alternative class features that might alleviate that slightly, or is your goal simply to make the best melee character on the planet, and the fact that he's only okay at ranged combat is acceptable? If it's the latter, that's perfectly understandable. I can't really recall a fighter from a movie or book who wasn't better at melee than archery, but it's something to consider.

[eclipsic]

I really like the overall look and feel of this class, but I've got to wonder about the lack of support for ranged weaponry. A fighter with this class is a world-beater in melee, but would only be decent at best with a bow. Have you considered some alternative class features that might alleviate that slightly, or is your goal simply to make the best melee character on the planet, and the fact that he's only okay at ranged combat is acceptable? If it's the latter, that's perfectly understandable. I can't really recall a fighter from a movie or book who wasn't better at melee than archery, but it's something to consider.

Similar to how I left charging/power attacking to barbarians and grappling/mobility to monks, I left archery to the rangers. A fighter could easily pick up a bow as his second favored weapon and enjoy a goodly amount of use from it, but you're right, this was designed as a mainly melee character. It's entirely possible I erred in that decision; I am striving for a tier 3 fighter, so I might have to throw some ranged combat in there, just to make him not-so-useless outside of melee.

[Straybow]

...Nalfeshnee... Yeah, I know. You can crawl through the MM and find all kinds of things... The more reasonable glabrezu is Str 31 at 15' and 5500 lb. I guess nalfeshnee are the wimpy office guys of demondom who get out of breath climbing a short flight of stairs. The description says they disdain combat as beneath them. The one in the picure even has man-boobs. See? There's always a 100% logical reason to everything.

Nothing says that Str must follow in proportion to mass. It must do so if the creature is to be as proportionally agile and energetic and powerful. That's what the defined logarithmic load characteristics of d20 Strength say combined with the physics of mass proportional to cube of dimension.


The giant type description even says "A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size" not "A giant is a humanoid creature grown to great size with proportionately-increased strength" It's supposed to have greater strength than its size would indicate. That's the problem with writing rules for a game as complex as this. The guy who writes the description for the giant type isn't necessarily the guy who does the ability score conversion in the stat blocks. Maybe a designer meant to specify that the giants should therefore use the elite array with Strength as highest instead of the standard array but that was never carried out.

Compared to wimpy management demons giants have great strength. Or compare a giant to some poor schlub fighter who agrees to have enlarge person cast upon him... suddenly he and his equipment weigh 8 times as much per the spell description, and to cope with that he gets +2 Strength. "Thanks, that +2 strength means after toppling over I might be able to roll onto my side so I don't get crushed under my backpack."

If he were an average levy his mail and spear weigh in at 46 lb, medium load at Str 10. Now he has Str 12 with heavy limit at 130 lb and lift/stagger at 260 lb, but his combat equipment weighs 368 lb and he topples over. With even a small backpack he'd better hope he doesn't get pinned under it. "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!"

If he's a starting PC who bought Str 18 he's now at 20. His banded armor at 35 lb, weapons at 8 lb, and 50 lb pack technically were in his light load range (93<100). Now the 400 lb pack is already at the limit of his heavy load range. His armor and weapon put him at 344 lb over, almost to the limit he can lift and stagger with.

OK, so maybe there isn't always a good explanation for the way things get written. "We can't have a 1st level spell grant a +15 to strength by physical proportion... we'll just throw in +2 since that half the bonus from the 2nd level spell bull's strength. I hope nobody notices..."

(The solution, of course, is to go back to having enlarge person effect limited to +10% height per level. Then write the spell to have a stretching effect on proportions, so that mass and strength grow at less than cube of height. If set at 15% per level, doubling every 5 levels, that is essentially +1 to Str per level. Then cap it at 10 levels and add a Dex penalty of half the Str added to compensate.)

Hmmm, I seem to have wandered down a bunny trail here.

[Clawhound]

A problem for all melee types is that monster designers had few tools to balance monsters. In order to get the numbers to come out correctly, they pumped stats, especially strength. So unless you are a nut about pumping your strength, along with having a generous DM, you just won't keep up with strength at all.

[Yitzi]

A problem for all melee types is that monster designers had few tools to balance monsters. In order to get the numbers to come out correctly, they pumped stats, especially strength. So unless you are a nut about pumping your strength, along with having a generous DM, you just won't keep up with strength at all.

But then again, a skilled warrior should be able to largely if not completely ignore his opponent's strength. Stuff like "the enemy must counter with DEX, not STR" and "you may halve both your and your enemy's STR bonus for the opposed check, if such is advantageous", could help quite a bit.