[PF] Antagonize errata?

[Laniius]

When was it errata'd? It used to state on the PFSRD that if you used the Intimidate function of Antagonize, the target was forced into melée with you if you beat a certain DC. This functioned once per creature per day. Now it forces the target to attack you, either melée or ranged or with a spell or item.

When did this nerf occur, and would you consider the feat still worth taking?

[klemdakherzbag]

I have always considered the diplomacy side of Antagonize as stronger (debuff), but it is still better than not having it at all I suppose.

[Blyte]

I don't know when the errata occured, but it's a much more realistic feat now. The notion of a wizard charging the barbarian with his quarterstaff rather than focusing a spell at him was pretty rediculous.

It's still a good option for a "tank" to have, it's just less abusable vs. casters now.

[Starbuck_II]

When was it errata'd? It used to state on the PFSRD that if you used the Intimidate function of Antagonize, the target was forced into melée with you if you beat a certain DC. This functioned once per creature per day. Now it forces the target to attack you, either melée or ranged or with a spell or item.

When did this nerf occur, and would you consider the feat still worth taking?
It is a nerf but more sensible. Mindless Rage spell (Complete Adventurer) is magic so make sense to limit Mage to melee, but this feat shouldn't be that strong.
Fear still useful as it means they must attack you.

[Cieyrin]

When was it errata'd? It used to state on the PFSRD that if you used the Intimidate function of Antagonize, the target was forced into melée with you if you beat a certain DC. This functioned once per creature per day. Now it forces the target to attack you, either melée or ranged or with a spell or item.

When did this nerf occur, and would you consider the feat still worth taking?

It happened when the Ultimate Magic errata came out March 30th. Antagonize, among other things, were updated.

I'd say it's still worth taking, as it's still a taunt that forces your target to attack you, it's just they have a choice. Plus it has the advantage of not having your DM pummel you with your own copy of Ultimate Magic whenever you try to use Antagonize, which is always nice. :smallwink:

[Laniius]

It is a nerf but more sensible. Mindless Rage spell (Complete Adventurer) is magic so make sense to limit Mage to melee, but this feat shouldn't be that strong.
Fear still useful as it means they must attack you.

That's the problem I have with 3.5 and PF sometimes - the only real effective counter to magic is magic. I liked having an option for non-magical characters.

Also, in a world with spells available, the idea of "realism" quickly goes out the window. Perhaps as a feat it's too strong, but I would have loved to see something similar as an alternate class feature, or maybe the penultimate in a line of feats.

Instead of nerfing the way they did, I would have liked a possible counter being put in, or a Save DC similar to a spell rather than an intimidate check. Perhaps a Save DC with your charisma modifier as the casting stat.

As it stands, this feat is now almost useless for the intimidate aspect; as a big bruiser you will likely draw fire anyway (at least before the guy in the dress starts casting spells). Also, the caveat that the target can cast AoE spells at you? "Oh no, well this guy has pissed me off so much that I MUST target him with a 20 foot radius fireball, whatever shall I do?". I think the errata went too far in the other direction.

[Starbuck_II]

That's the problem I have with 3.5 and PF sometimes - the only real effective counter to magic is magic. I liked having an option for non-magical characters.

Also, in a world with spells available, the idea of "realism" quickly goes out the window. Perhaps as a feat it's too strong, but I would have loved to see something similar as an alternate class feature, or maybe the penultimate in a line of feats.

Instead of nerfing the way they did, I would have liked a possible counter being put in, or a Save DC similar to a spell rather than an intimidate check. Perhaps a Save DC with your charisma modifier as the casting stat.

As it stands, this feat is now almost useless for the intimidate aspect; as a big bruiser you will likely draw fire anyway (at least before the guy in the dress starts casting spells). Also, the caveat that the target can cast AoE spells at you? "Oh no, well this guy has pissed me off so much that I MUST target him with a 20 foot radius fireball, whatever shall I do?". I think the errata went too far in the other direction.

Actually, remember there is no range on it.
So you can move away from allies then use it. He waste his Fireball on you, no one is hurt.
Probably better to use it when a Evasion using class like Rogue. :smallwink:

[Cieyrin]

Actually, remember there is no range on it.
So you can move away from allies then use it. He waste his Fireball on you, no one is hurt.
Probably better to use it when a Evasion using class like Rogue. :smallwink:

Some of the fighter archetypes based on shields get Evasion or they can pick it up as a Ring. :smallwink:

As for the save DC, they made it actually equal to what Intimidate normally does, as opposed to the paltry DC it was at before so you have to actually try and even then, it's harder to optimize a defense as it is to optimize to beat it, especially since the clause to get Cha to the check twice is still there. So no, I don't think the Intimidate feat is worthless now. The DC now is like 11-13 at 1st level as opposed to 1-3 and you still influence how they spend their turn, which will break Invisibility and whatnot, which is a major use I saw being done with it, which still works.

[olentu]

Come now people the primary use of the antagonize feat is getting anyone to attack you anywhere. The in combat stuff is just a bonus.

[NamelessNPC]

The feat is decent. The previous incarnation was probably in the top 5 feats powerwise.

It still does something that no other feat/class feature/spell can do, and lets charisma based tanks (paladin, cavalier) actually tank.

I'm choosing it next time I level up (lvl 9) with my Death Mage

[Slipperychicken]

I'd say it's still worth taking, as it's still a taunt that forces your target to attack you, it's just they have a choice. Plus it has the advantage of not having your DM pummel you with your own copy of Ultimate Magic whenever you try to use Antagonize, which is always nice. :smallwink:

This, basically. Antagonize worked too well, in that its effect targeted the DM as well, compelling him to make a called shot to the player's head with his +3 Stainless Steel d20.

[Gnaeus]

And it is still a brutal feat for anyone to use against a lot of enemies, whether they tank or not.

For example, any melee only enemy (like any animal or lots of monsters) has to attack you. So, assuming you stand where they can't pounce you, they have to move towards you, drawing AOOs from party members (you did stand where party members can aoo them, right) and then attack you once, instead of full attacking your buddy. And even the modified DC is so low that my sorcerer can't fail it against anything we are likely to fight.

This also works for any muggle enemy that is in melee already. By which I mean, he can either stop fighting who he is fighting and walk towards you and hit you, or drop his sword, pull out a bow, and shoot you, drawing AOOs. If he can't reach you with his weapon, then he HAS to draw the bow and try to shoot you. Triple bonus points if your buddy in melee combat then picks up his sword and beats him to death with his own weapon. In some combats, this scenario is better than the previous version would allow.

Edit: Ooh, or what if he has a potentially throwable weapon, like a spear or dagger. You can make him throw his weapon at you :-).

[Blisstake]

Glad they're fixing a lot of the problem areas with errata!

I can still see uses for the feat now, but as everyone has pretty much said, it was too abuseable in its earlier form.

[Ravens_cry]

This, basically. Antagonize worked too well, in that its effect targeted the DM as well, compelling him to make a called shot to the player's head with his +3 Stainless Steel d20.
I've actually seen those. Not sure if it was +3, but everyone knows DM's can cast Greater Magic Weapon as a spell-like ability.

[Cieyrin]

I've actually seen those. Not sure if it was +3, but everyone knows DM's can cast Greater Magic Weapon as a spell-like ability.

I wouldn't want to be hit by one of those, a buddy of mind has one and he tends to dent wooden surfaces by just rolling it. :smallamused:

[Frosty]

Sometimes the Gm uses a Book to attack, and he is proficient with it too!

On a separate note, is anyone else seeing that the Search option has disappeared from the site?

[Jeraa]

On a separate note, is anyone else seeing that the Search option has disappeared from the site?

It has been disabled. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238037)