nonmagical heroic deeds

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Let's suppose we want to take a nonmagical class up in tiers and give it daily abilities comparable in power/usefulness to those of a wizard. What could such powers be?

as an inspiration, Think of Hercules who created the Strait of Gibraltar. Think of Hulk who launched mountains in the sky or the Flash running in circles to create a tornado.

what if a rogue was able to steal a castle when everybody is watching? what if he was so good at sneaking he could pass through walls? or so good at hiding that people forgot of his existance? what if the monk had such a control over his body and mind that he could become ethereal at will and permanently flying? what if the barbarian was so strong that he could throw a dragon in outer space or jump from a city to another?

What could be some high level nonmagic powers in this hypotetic variant system?
what should high level heroes be able to do, in your opinion?
Let's share our ideas

[Hunter Noventa]

Let's suppose we want to take a nonmagical class up in tiers and give it daily abilities comparable in power/usefulness to those of a wizard. What could such powers be?

as an inspiration, Think of Hercules who created the Strait of Gibraltar. Think of Hulk who launched mountains in the sky or the Flash running in circles to create a tornado.

what if a rogue was able to steal a castle when everybody is watching? what if he was so good at sneaking he could pass through walls? or so good at hiding that people forgot of his existance? what if the monk had such a control over his body and mind that he could become ethereal at will and permanently flying? what if the barbarian was so strong that he could throw a dragon in outer space or jump from a city to another?

What could be some high level nonmagic powers in this hypotetic variant system?
what should high level heroes be able to do, in your opinion?
Let's share our ideas

There are some epic skill checks for stuff like that. Balancing on clouds, getting through a wall of force. The problem lies in getting said skill check high enough.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

I know about epic skill checks but they don't solve the problem in my opinion.
As long as casters can obtain higher skill checks than dedicated classes, this makes no sense.
And the scale for epic skills is also too small and won't actually bring classes up in tiers.
I've gotta get a huge score just to pass through a wall of force while any decent caster can just teleport out of it and play with reality all day long? This is not a very huge leap in power...

Think bigger, melee need nice things :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

I think I actually once did see an ability where you could run around and if you made a circle a tornado would spring up there. Though in that case I think it was a spell.

There are also spells that grant bonuses if you have ranks in certain skills (such as passing through walls with Escape Artist), but you of course don't want that.

Some of this sounds rather Factotum-y though.

[SetArk]

The book u are looking for is Tome of Battle :3
More then half of the classes do crazy stuff with Ex habilities... nothing really magical, just that they are SO good on something, but SO good on something, that they will be able to perform crazy stuff like teleporting throgh shadows, adquiring scent, hiting someone for like 30 times b4 missing or the other guy do anythng..

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The book u are looking for is Tome of Battle :3
More then half of the classes do crazy stuff with Ex habilities... nothing really magical, just that they are SO good on something, but SO good on something, that they will be able to perform crazy stuff like teleporting throgh shadows, adquiring scent, hiting someone for like 30 times b4 missing or the other guy do anythng..I like ToB, but it won't bring up martial characters over tier3 (see jaronk's tier system for reference) while I'm trying to explore the chance of making a martial tier1 (or 2) class.
ToB is very good but it still lacks that "something" that gives melee a real chance to be on par with casters, not only in PvP but especially in the ability to contribute in normal adventures.

[SetArk]

Well... I think WotC will never agian speak of launching an 3.5 supp.. So the solution is homebrew for live \o>

I think using the ToB as base for this kind of classes, that could be not easly but well, at least accomplished..

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Yes, this is meant to be homebrew.
I haven't decided the exact rules yet, ATM its just a brainstorming thing to figure out what nonmagical characters should be able to do to be tier1

[SilverLeaf167]

I dare say that if "mundane classes" were capable of throwing mountains or walking through walls, they wouldn't be mundane anymore. The classes would effectively be composed of just "fighting caster", "sneaky caster" etc. with fluff and the exact choices available being the only difference.

Of course, I agree that mundane classes should be made more versatile, but if you do it this way... you might just as well play a caster.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The classes would effectively be composed of just "fighting caster", "sneaky caster" etc. with fluff and the exact choices available being the only difference.I wouldn't call the incredible hulk a magic user. :smallconfused:

I see where you are going but that's probably just being conservative from habit. Mybe you are so used to see casters as superior being that the idea of making changes is suspicious as it requires a huge change of viewpoint.

Fact is, it is known that 3.5 has a problem: not all classes can equally contribute in the game, and some are even outmatched in their restricted area (see fighters vs codzilla or rogues vs wizards).
But characters of the same level are supposed to be at the same level, regardless of their class.
I am searching for a solution to this problem.

You say "play a wizard instead", well I don't agree, it only avoids the problem instead of solving it.
Characters beyond level 5 are supposed to be superhuman by D&D standards. Let's make 'em superhuman for good, then.

[SilverLeaf167]

I wouldn't call the incredible hulk a magic user. :smallconfused:

I see where you are going but that's probably just being conservative from habit. Mybe you are so used to see casters as superior being that the idea of making changes is suspicious as it requires a huge change of viewpoint.

Fact is, it is known that 3.5 has a problem: not all classes can equally contribute in the game, and some are even outmatched in their restricted area (see fighters vs codzilla or rogues vs wizards).
But characters of the same level are supposed to be at the same level, regardless of their class.
I am searching for a solution to this problem.

You say "play a wizard instead", well I don't agree, it only avoids the problem instead of solving it.
Characters beyond level 5 are supposed to be superhuman by D&D standards. Let's make 'em superhuman for good, then.
I might have presented my point in an unclear fashion, let me try to clarify.
I meant that if mundane characters could do all the things that magic users are currently capable of, only fluffed differently, what would be the point in having separate classes at all? "Choice of class" would become "choice of spell list", with some class features thrown on top. This is exaggerated, sure, but think about it. For example, let's take a look at Tome of Battle and the maneuver system within. Many people have complained about it being a refluffed and redesigned magic system, and you know, that's what it is: if you're capable of performing superhuman feats of strength, agility and spewing fireballs, why does it matter whether you do that through sheer skill or magic?

In the end, if someone does this, they'll end up giving mundane classes something mechanically similar to
a) a spell list
b) SLAs, at-will or with limited uses.
If you think that the only important difference between mundane and magic classes is the fluff, go for it. However, many people don't want their mundane characters to resemble magic so much.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

However, many people don't want their mundane characters to resemble magic so much.
You are mixing two different issues here:
-resemblance of magic in what the characters do (thematical)
-resemblance of magic in how the system works (mechanical)

For the first kind of resemblance, I believe that fluff is what matters.
Both a Barbarian and a Wizard can move really fast.
The barbarian can do that because his muscles are very developed.
The wizard can do that because his spells allow him too.
What makes the two different is the fluff, and nobody has ever complained.
This can perfectly be translated on a bigger scale.
If you have read one Piece, you will certainly know that CP9 enemies could fly at will by kicking the air. Nobody has ever argued that it was or even resembled magic. They could even cut you from a distance using the air as a razor. I can totally see a monk doing these things without resembling a wizard at all.
We can scale this up even more: Hercules created the strait of gibraltar smashing a mountain with his bare fists and nobody said he was "magic" for that. His power was godlike, but still nonmagic muscolar power.
That's why I believe that the association between heroic nonmagical deeds and magic is only apparently an issue.

Now, the other issue: mechanical resemblance.
ToB raised so many critics because it was basically vancian system.
Mundane characters, in reality, are not averse to daily uses. Think of the barbarian rage, one of the most iconic 3.5 abilities: it shares some similarities with magic, but has anybody ever objected that it resmblede too much magic? I personally have never seen this happening. In the same way, Factotum are not seen as psionic characters for having some kind of expendable points. And even if vancian was unacceptable, it would be enough to write a different system.

So both thematic and mechanical issues are not problems.

Ultimately, there is a third issue: quality/power similarity.
If you think that a mundane characters being able of awesome deeds as powerful as spells is bad, then it can't be helped.
In fact if you say "the barbarian you are trying to do resembles too much a wizard because he is as powerful as a wizard" you are implying that being powerful is only meant to be for wizards and not for barbarians. This is tautologic reasoning and there is nothing I can do to convince you.

I can understand that some players want their character to be inferior and made useless. That's perfectly legit and I'm not going to argue. But, since I don't like it, I'm trying to change it.

I hope I explained my POV

[Particle_Man]

You might want to look at Legend at Rule of Cool games. They seem to have this kind of stuff for the non-spell-casters.

[JadePhoenix]

You know, JaronK used to say (and pretty much everyone agreed with him) that being tier 1 is a bad thing. It's better to bring spellcasters down to tier 3.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't call the incredible hulk a magic user. :smallconfused:

I wouldn't call him T1 or T2 either.

The problem is that once you get to a certain level of power, calling it "not-magic" becomes purely academic.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

You know, JaronK used to say (and pretty much everyone agreed with him) that being tier 1 is a bad thing. It's better to bring spellcasters down to tier 3.
And I can agree with this. That's ok.
But I also like to explore the idea of a martial character capable of truly heroic, awesome actions. Not just being able to swing the sword a bit harder than the previous level.
Perhaps it will never be used but it's an interesting concept to begin with.
What does a martial character need in order to be as good as tier 1 or 2?

I mean if I wanted to discuss bout the disparity of powers I'd post in the other thread (should melee be able to rival caster etc) I opened this for a brainstorming purpose, and was expecting a different kind of replies

[Psyren]

What does a martial character need in order to be as good as tier 1 or 2?


Magic. Or at the very least, abilities that so closely approximate magic they might as well be magic.

I doubt that's the answer you want, but...

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Magic. Or at the very least, abilities that so closely approximate magic they might as well be magic.

I doubt that's the answer you want, but...
@psyren
Maybe the tier system is not exactly appropriate to describe what I mean so let's forget about it and just speak of awesomeness if that's more comfortable to you. (I would still argue that many of the nonmagical actions I described above would add a lot of versatility to martial characters, but it's not that important being a matter of definitions)

[Grinner]

The problem here is that martial characters are, by their physical nature, quite limited in comparison to spellcasters. They're also relatively realistic, especially when the Wound/Vitality variant is in use.

Boosting their abilities beyond the normal limit of the everyday results in a style of play many call "wuxia", and wuxia is inherently unrealistic. However, conventional physical might just can't compete against the ability to reshape reality.

If you want a game with some verisimilitude, then nerf casters. Let them reshape reality as they already do, but make sure they pay for it. Impose drastic penalties for drastic actions. They're touching the essence of creation. If they screw up, they're going to die.

If you just want martial characters to be able to compete with casters, then you'll have to break a lot of player expectations.


For the first kind of resemblance, I believe that fluff is what matters.
Both a Barbarian and a Wizard can move really fast.
The barbarian can do that because his muscles are very developed.
The wizard can do that because his spells allow him too.
What makes the two different is the fluff, and nobody has ever complained.

For the sake of clarification, these are *not* the same. Yes, the Barbarian can move a little quicker. The Wizard can also do the same thing.

The difference is that the Wizard, with his massive spell list, can also do *anything* else.

[JadePhoenix]

And I can agree with this. That's ok.
But I also like to explore the idea of a martial character capable of truly heroic, awesome actions. Not just being able to swing the sword a bit harder than the previous level.
Perhaps it will never be used but it's an interesting concept to begin with.
What does a martial character need in order to be as good as tier 1 or 2?


And you can do that... without being tier 1 or 2. Most tier 3 martial characters do just that. Warblades can shrug any effect through sheer willpower and deflect rays with his blade. There is that Bard/Warblade build that cuts spells with a sword. Dungeoncrasher can perform ridiculous feats of strenght, such as bending iron bars while taking 10. Swordsage can throw everyone in a battlefield into each other.
What you want are options for martial characters? That's ToB, my friend. You can find some here and there, but ToB has most of it. There are plenty of builds that do this - google Dulcinea Dancer's Daughter or The Other Killer Gnome or Jack B. Quick or stuff like that.
If you want to homebrew a martial tier 1 or 2 simply because you want to... that's one thing. But options for martial characters? We have those. And it not being tier 1 or 2 is a good thing.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

@Scotchland
I already know that and I am fully aware of the consequences of my choice.
My idea may be controversial, but I would gently point out that the original purpose of the thread was brainstorming new features, while there are dedicated threads out there where everybody can fully express their thoughts about melee being able to rival casters


If you want to homebrew a martial tier 1 or 2 simply because you want to... that's one thing. Yes, that's the idea. I understand that people may not like it, I don't want to force it to anyone or prove anything.
I was just speculating around this idea and I think it would be entertaining to go a little further and try to homebrew something around it.
If you are not interested I respect that and you are free to not help.


The difference is that the Wizard, with his massive spell list, can also do *anything* else. I am having a hard time figuring out how this is related to what I said in that context, so I can't provide you a related answer at the moment, sorry

[Xefas]

I think you need to nail down what you mean by "magic", as from what I've seen, these threads tend to get into arguments over semantics more often than not. One party means "magic" as in "anything that is not walking up and hitting it with your sword" and the other party means "magic" as in "an effect produced by arcane or divine energy separate from one's innate skill".

By the second definition, there is definitely room for a high-tier mundane class. To quote the SRD, "Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics."

For inspiration, look no further than White Wolf's Exalted. There is magic in that system. But, separate from that, most abilities are completely innate extension's of one's skill. An Exalt can shatter a mountain with his face, survive a moon landing on him, sway the hearts of a nation into fanatical devotion, smith ten thousand swords in a heartbeat, and steal the left shoe of everyone within a hundred miles without them noticing - at 1st level, through skill alone, without magic, and with a fair amount of ease.

Exalted have their own wizards, and their magic is also impressive. Summoning suns on top of people, and so on.

[Grinner]

@Scotchland
I already know that and I am fully aware of the consequences of my choice.
My idea may be controversial, but I would gently point out that the original purpose of the thread was brainstorming new features, while there are dedicated threads out there where everybody can fully express their thoughts about melee being able to rival casters

Well, a fatigue system and some linked at-will abilities would fit the order, but that's mechanically just like basic psionics.


I am having a hard time figuring out how this is related to what I said in that context

Think about it for a second. A Barbarian can hit things, move quickly, and so on. A mid-level Wizard, with the right spells, can do all of this better than him with a couple of buffs and then throw on a few Fireballs for good measure.


For inspiration, look no further than White Wolf's Exalted. There is magic in that system. But, separate from that, most abilities are completely innate extension's of one's skill. An Exalt can shatter a mountain with his face, survive a moon landing on him, sway the hearts of a nation into fanatical devotion, smith ten thousand swords in a heartbeat, and steal the left shoe of everyone within a hundred miles without them noticing - at 1st level, through skill alone, without magic, and with a fair amount of ease.

Yes. +1.

[The Mentalist]

Exalted = Awesome

Two things about this
1. This is probably a good place to start with this project. Port some Exalted stuff as feats, skill tricks, ACFs and the like.

2. White Wolf is always just so wonderfully fluffy about these sorts of things.

*scurries back to the Homebrew cave*

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

For inspiration, look no further than White Wolf's Exalted. There is magic in that system. But, separate from that, most abilities are completely innate extension's of one's skill. An Exalt can shatter a mountain with his face, survive a moon landing on him, sway the hearts of a nation into fanatical devotion, smith ten thousand swords in a heartbeat, and steal the left shoe of everyone within a hundred miles without them noticing - at 1st level, through skill alone, without magic, and with a fair amount of ease.
Now, this is very interesting!
Thank you so much for your contribution.
I'm surely going to check that


2. White Wolf is always just so wonderfully fluffy about these sorts of things.*
To be honest, the inspiration came in the first place with Vampire: The Masquerade, another game from WhiteWolf.
My first thought was: If Potence has a quadratic advancement (a character with Potence 9 can move a continent) why the D&D barbarian can't?


Think about it for a second. A Barbarian can hit things, move quickly, and so on. A mid-level Wizard, with the right spells, can do all of this better than him with a couple of buffs and then throw on a few Fireballs for good measure. But, unless i'm missing something, this seem to have nothing to do with the overall sense of what was being discussed in the paragraph you quoted.