Class Balance in a Campaign

[Sturmcrow]

So to my understanding Tome of Battle classes are good replacement for the Core Melee but what Caster classes would you say are about the same power level as those if you were trying to run a campaign where the classes were pretty close in terms of power for balance reasons?

I know a lot of people that pretty much refuse to play non3.5 or PF so if I was running a game for them but limiting choices instead of a lot of homebrew what would be a good selection of classes to draw from?

[Suddo]

Beguiler, Bard, Incarnates and Shadowcasters (or at least I've heard) are commonly used but if those aren't Castery enough for you then feel free to let them play a Sorc but they have to run their spell choices by you. If you don't allow things like Polymorph and Teleport then you might be okay. The same can go for Psionics or Favored Souls. Also watch what they PrC into and how.

[Alienist]

Essentially the idea is to ban any full casters that get to pick from the whole range of spells, instead of a limited subset. So wizard and sorcerer are out, but beguiler and dread necro are in (because although they get ninth level spells, their selections are quite limited).
Clerics and Druids are out, but adepts would be okay, healer is okay. etc.

[Slipperychicken]

I think the T3 party is something like Warblade (Fighter and Barbarian), Factotum (Rogue), Wildshape Ranger (Druid, Ranger), Bard, Duskblade or Beguiler (Sorcerer. Might be misremembering that one though).


Whatever casting classes you go with (most likely T2-3 area) should probably be regulated in what spells/tricks they can use if you want them close to nonmagic-melee (i.e. banning some things like polymorph, teleport, etc).

[Malachei]

I think the easiest way is to focus game play on mid levels, and I don't see how limiting the class choice to beguilers and dread necromancers fixes balance without additional houserules. Both are strong classes (actually, on low levels, the huge spell list and spontaneous casting lets them rival sorcerers). More importantly, the rules offer many ways to circumvent spell list limits (runestaves just being one option). Also, they have excellent high-level options. Not good as those of wizards, but a beguiler spontaneously casting time stop is still in a very powerful position.

Many campaigns don't see high levels, anyway. If you start play at 1st level, take about three sessions to level and play once every two weeks, you'll have little more than 8 levels per year. If you're the DM, you can plan a campaign that runs until the higher mid levels.

Spellcasters dominating martial classes in high levels has been a cornerstone of D&D since it was created by Gygax and Arneson. A D&D spellcaster's "DNA" is different from those of casters in other games. I'm not saying you have to stick to that, just where the game comes from. Even though recently, the focus of the discussion is more on party balance, the game has been enjoyed by hobbyists for many years despite imbalances in the power curve. Some players are more sensitive to in-party power balance, some are less. In fact, I've been playing in games where full casters have had significant advantages "on paper", but players of martial classes still had fun and their time to shine, and nobody complained.

So the whole balance debate also depends on how skilled the DM is in letting PCs shine.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-
So the whole balance debate also depends on how skilled the DM is in letting PCs shine.

A balanced game lets the PCs shine easier even with a more inexperienced DM. Many games don't run into the balance issues of the system, whether due to the DM subtly countering it or just not noticing or caring about the issue. That doesn't make the issues that other groups find any less valid, however. Just because some games don't have systemic issues doesn't mean there aren't any.

I do agree that perhaps too much focus gets put on the upper levels of play (15-20), but the issues are still noticeable when the 9th level wizard casts a single spell and flies half the day, but the fighter literally can't get an equivalent ability (whether that be in mobility or in ability to deal with flying and nonflying threats alike). In quite a few (I might venture to guess "most") games, the problem of capabilities kicks in even earlier than that. While it's absolutely possible and altogether likely to have fun playing the game regardless, the issues are still there.

As for the OP's question, you might want to look into the tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0), which tries to rank classes based on the situations they're useful in. Tiers 3 and 4 are generally considered the "sweet spot" where everybody can contribute to most situations without being able to single-handedly solve everything.

Those classes are:
Tier 3 Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4 Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Zhent Variant Fighter

Notably missing from the Tier 3 & Tier 4 list is a general arcane caster and a full divine caster. It'll be a bit difficult to move these classes into the "sweet spot" since 3 and 4 are defined as not being able to do everything, but access to an entire full caster's list lets you do essentially anything, unless you only get a handful of spells per day (like the Factotum).

Here's another tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) with more of the base classes on it.

[Sturmcrow]

Thanks for the link, I knew about the Tiers but I only really knew who was on top and who was on bottom.

I actually have been GMing a long time I just would prefer to not have to completely oversee every step of their character progression. Some people I know are solid optimizers whereas others just want to play. I would rather that those that just play are on a more level playing field and don't fall into some of the Class choice traps that exist. Easiest way to do that in my opinion is create a list of available classes for everyone.

I like the Healer but having the Adept and Healer choice seems unnecessary, wish I could give the Healer a little more oomph like Marshall Auras. Hmmm Gestalt /ponders

Imbalance isn't really noticeable the first few levels but by 5th I think it becomes plain to see.

Limiting to tier 3-4 seems like a good idea I just wish there was a good Divine Caster for that area.

[Sturmcrow]

Is the Wildshape Variant Ranger in UA or something else?

[Slipperychicken]

Limiting to tier 3-4 seems like a good idea I just wish there was a good Divine Caster for that area.

Divine Bard? I think there's an ACF for Bard Spontaneous Healing. Suggest using Perform(Oratory) or Perform(Sing) if you want to avoid silly images like tapdancing holy men.

Healing Hymn ACF (replaces fascinate) from Complete Champion boosts healing by ranks in Perform, but doesn't give spontaneous curing...



EDIT: Bards were spontaneous all along, so they cast the Cures they get from Divine Bard spontaneously too.

[Morph Bark]

Is the Wildshape Variant Ranger in UA or something else?

It's from UA, yes, so it can also be found in the SRD.

Note that while Tier 3 classes are much closer in versatility and power from each other, at the first two-three levels the ToB classes will be much more powerful than the others.

[Sturmcrow]

Divine Bard? I think there's an ACF for Bard Spontaneous Healing. Suggest using Perform(Oratory) or Perform(Sing) if you want to avoid silly images like tapdancing holy men.

Healing Hymn ACF (replaces fascinate) from Complete Champion boosts healing by ranks in Perform, but doesn't give spontaneous curing...



EDIT: Bards were spontaneous all along, so they cast the Cures they get from Divine Bard spontaneously too.

Interesting, that may cover what I would need.



It's from UA, yes, so it can also be found in the SRD.

Note that while Tier 3 classes are much closer in versatility and power from each other, at the first two-three levels the ToB classes will be much more powerful than the others.

But past 3rd they will be pretty even?


Also, anyone have opinions on a Gestalt Marshall/Healer ?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Gestalt Marshall/Healer would probably be ok, however I'd recommend a healer with a domain or two from their god added to their spell list instead. Problem with healer is that healing is all it does this leads to boring play in addition to a lack of versatility. I'm not sure if adding party buffs is really the right move for spicing it up.

[Sturmcrow]

Gestalt Marshall/Healer would probably be ok, however I'd recommend a healer with a domain or two from their god added to their spell list instead. Problem with healer is that healing is all it does this leads to boring play in addition to a lack of versatility. I'm not sure if adding party buffs is really the right move for spicing it up.

What about adding the Sanctified spells to their list?

[Toliudar]

Adding Sanctified spells could work, assuming either that your Healer wants to play an exalted-type character or that you release other restrictions on the use of sanctified spells. There's still not a lot of offensive options there, especially against non-evil opponents.

As another alternative: you're getting rid of other classes that are even half-way decent summoners. Giving Healers the Summoning Domain spells would put that archetype back on the table. You can decide whether that's a good thing or not.

[Sturmcrow]

Adding Sanctified spells could work, assuming either that your Healer wants to play an exalted-type character or that you release other restrictions on the use of sanctified spells. There's still not a lot of offensive options there, especially against non-evil opponents.

As another alternative: you're getting rid of other classes that are even half-way decent summoners. Giving Healers the Summoning Domain spells would put that archetype back on the table. You can decide whether that's a good thing or not.

Hmmm, Summoning probably would not put it over the top, especially not with the bonus feats Wizards get. If they focus on it could still be strong. Could do Summon Nature's Ally line instead I guess.

I have played a Malconvoker before so I like Summoners.

[Morph Bark]

But past 3rd they will be pretty even?

Once the casters get more spells per day and higher spell levels, yeah. Non-ToB melee classes will need their +6 BAB to get even. Ranged classes have less trouble, but ranged has problems of its own, so usually the ones with the bow will be things like Rogues (with a lot of SA dice) or Rangers or other classes with sources of bonus damage, though they will still likely want plenty of attacks.

Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher Fighter can stay even pretty easily though, at least until level 9 or 10.