What about Pathfinder's Fighter in a D&D3.5 game?

[Larkas]

So I was thinking about allowing my players to pick Pathfinder's Fighter (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/fighter.html#_fighter) instead of D&D 3.5's one. The game is aimed at Tier 3 and 4 classes, and this bump should bring the Fighter to mid-Tier 4, all the while making it more interesting and all around fun.

Have you ever seen this done before? What do you think of the option?

[Aegis013]

It won't break the game or anything, the biggest issue is making sure your DM is ok with it and that you make sure you and the DM agree completely on what Combat Maneuvers are for 3.5.

I'd honestly rather just play a warblade, but that's me. If this seems like a more fun option to you, go for it. (assuming the DM is ok with it)

[deuxhero]

Honestly, aside from full movement in medium armor and soem new class skills, nothing new is really relevant for its level, and with full Pathfinder material, Sash of the War champion gives that for cheep.

[Larkas]

It won't break the game or anything, the biggest issue is making sure your DM is ok with it and that you make sure you and the DM agree completely on what Combat Maneuvers are for 3.5.

I'd honestly rather just play a warblade, but that's me. If this seems like a more fun option to you, go for it. (assuming the DM is ok with it)

Actually, I'm the one DMing :smallsmile: I was considering it because a player was starting to feel a little down for going full fighter, and this would solve it somewhat while not having him remake his character. I'm guessing the Combat Maneuvers part would be a little harder to convert, but not much, since he would be adding it to trip, grapple, bull rush, etc, and also to opposed checks against these things. Not something that was done before in 3.5, but not exactly impossible either. Even if I decide to ignore the CM part, it is still a nicer class, right?


Honestly, aside from full movement in medium armor and soem new class skills, nothing new is really relevant for its level, and with full Pathfinder material, Sash of the War champion gives that for cheep.

Don't forget about added maximum Dex for armors, allowing a Full Plate with +5 Dex (at the very least), not to mention the extra damage from the weapon training, the increased Will save versus fear, the DR 5/- and the capstone. I mean, it's not GREAT, but its a nice improvement from the 3.5 Fighter. And I was thinking of using just the class, not the full material =/

[Aegis013]

Actually, I'm the one DMing :smallsmile: I was considering it because a player was starting to feel a little down for going full fighter, and this would solve it somewhat while not having him remake his character. I'm guessing the Combat Maneuvers part would be a little harder to convert, but not much, since he would be adding it to trip, grapple, bull rush, etc, and also to opposed checks against these things. Not something that was done before in 3.5, but not exactly impossible either. Even if I decide to ignore the CM part, it is still a nicer class, right?=/

Woah, apparently I failed my reading comprehension check. It's a bit nicer than straight 3.5 Fighter, but it's not really going to do a ton to spice things up for the player. Maybe check out Dungeoncrasher variant in Dungeonscape? I hear that's a pretty fun option.

[deuxhero]

Which would matter if the class cared about dexterity

The class oddly does better in 3.5 than PF because PF nerfed the good melee feats hard for no reason whatsoever.

[Larkas]

Woah, apparently I failed my reading comprehension check. It's a bit nicer than straight 3.5 Fighter, but it's not really going to do a ton to spice things up for the player. Maybe check out Dungeoncrasher variant in Dungeonscape? I hear that's a pretty fun option.

Hahaha, no worries, misreading happens all the time. I was reading the variant right now. Wow, that bull rush damage is absurd! Really, really nice! Hmmmm, I have to weigh things now :smallamused: One could even pick a Pathfinder Fighter + the Dungeon Crasher variant, as they are thoroughly compatible, and if you add the weapon training in, you do even more damage. I guess I'll present that option to the player :smallsmile:


Which would matter if the class cared about dexterity

The class oddly does better in 3.5 than PF because PF nerfed the good melee feats hard for no reason whatsoever.

Well, you COULD build an archery-based fighter that actually had no problem walking around in a tin can, but this player is a THF specialist, so that's not the case.

And about the feats, I find that very strange. I would allow more flexibility when using PF's Power Attack, for example, in line with 3.5's. I don't know why the publisher nerfed it so bad. Maybe they didn't think of it as a nerf?

[deuxhero]

Ok, Archery and TWF users may have a use for it. Still, it comes at a level where raw AC has little meaning.

[Larkas]

Ok, Archery and TWF users may have a use for it. Still, it comes at a level where raw AC has little meaning.

Indeed. Still, it's a nice bonus, a mithral full plate, for example, would give +8 Armor Bonus (+9, if using PF rules), +7 Maximum Dex Bonus and 0 Armor Check Penalty, and that's a nonmagical item. Of course, as you pointed out, that only happens at level 15, but at level 11 the armor already allows a +6 Max Dex with a 0 Armor Check Penalty and at level 7 it is a +5 Max Dex with +1 ACP. So while it's not something I would lose sleep over, it's still a nice, if minor, buff.

[deuxhero]

Oh wait, Archery based archetype trades armor training away, as does the TWF one...

[Larkas]

Oh wait, Archery based archetype trades armor training away, as does the TWF one...

ACK! You mean these ones (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/fighter.html)? What the heck, man, they indeed do! :smalleek: I haven't read them through, but they'd better give something REALLY nice in return. Gladly, these are just variants, and this at least won't be an issue to this one player :smallsmile:

EDIT: And how would Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat), or a variant of it to match 3.5's Power Attack, work in a 3.5 environment? Are size tiers for ranged weapons feasible, so a Heavy Crossbow or a Longbow could get doubled effect like THW, Light Crossbow regular effect like light weapons and Sling half the effect like off-hand weapons? Or would a flexible Pathfinder version be better? Hmmmm....

[deuxhero]

Given the feat's name is "Deadly Aim" and not "Power Draw", I wouldn't bother and just let it scale.

[navar100]

Pathfinder Fighter is fine. Let him use Pathfinder feat progression as well so he gets a feat every level. He can still use 3E feats* so he can do the Power Attack/Shock Trooper shtick if he wants. Not sucking for wearing heavy armor, can swap obsolete feats, bonuses to hit and damage for weapon groups so that specialization isn't "needed". Good to go.

*I do recommend some Pathfinder feats. Cleave, for example, is better in Pathfinder, Vital Strike is nice, and the Critical Hit feats are awesome.

[Larkas]

Pathfinder Fighter is fine. Let him use Pathfinder feat progression as well so he gets a feat every level. He can still use 3E feats* so he can do the Power Attack/Shock Trooper shtick if he wants. Not sucking for wearing heavy armor, can swap obsolete feats, bonuses to hit and damage for weapon groups so that specialization isn't "needed". Good to go.

*I do recommend some Pathfinder feats. Cleave, for example, is better in Pathfinder, Vital Strike is nice, and the Critical Hit feats are awesome.

I actually thought about that, but I don't know if it would be too unbalancing to allow just him to use this progression. Do you know if allowing it for everyone break any other class?

About the feats, that might be a good idea! Pathfinder did strive to make melee characters better overall, and while some feats got arguably worse (Power Attack, for example, should allow increases every two levels instead of every four), some others got really awesome.

All things considered, I think this will make a much satisfying experience for the fighter :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you want a tier 3 fighter, do the following.

Give it the benefits of the Tactician or Lorekeeper archetypes (player's choice) for free. Also give all fighters Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), a set of substitution levels that give you some free stuff.

[Lans]

Honestly, i'd say that falls short of tier 3, but it does make for a decent tier 4.

[Larkas]

If you want a tier 3 fighter, do the following.

Give it the benefits of the Tactician or Lorekeeper archetypes (player's choice) for free. Also give all fighters Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), a set of substitution levels that give you some free stuff.

I'm guessing you mean Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden)? Anyways, those are, indeed, VERY solid choices. The Zhentarim Soldier alone makes the Fighter very useful outside of the battlefield, and the two archetypes brings that one step further. Heck, Zhentarim Soldier can be taken along with Dungeon Crasher too, so that's a plus! That's certainly something I'd allow. I'll agree with Lans that it still doesn't make the Fighter T3, but makes it a VERY solid T4!

[navar100]

I actually thought about that, but I don't know if it would be too unbalancing to allow just him to use this progression. Do you know if allowing it for everyone break any other class?

About the feats, that might be a good idea! Pathfinder did strive to make melee characters better overall, and while some feats got arguably worse (Power Attack, for example, should allow increases every two levels instead of every four), some others got really awesome.

All things considered, I think this will make a much satisfying experience for the fighter :smallbiggrin:

Only in the sense the 3E Paladin will be outclassed and possibly barbarian too. At this point might as well use all of the Pathfinder classes. :smallamused:

If the Fighter is the only warrior in the party then there's no problem. If there are others which you aren't going to "fix", then perhaps keep the 3E feat progression. However, in seriousness I would suggest you at least consider changing everyone to the Pathfinder classes. The spellcasters won't notice, except perhaps druid, and the rogue and warriors will be quite happy. You can keep everything else 3E if you don't want to change more into Pathfinder.

[Gavinfoxx]

A 3.5e fighter that is closer to Tier 3 would be a:

Zhentarim Soldier, Thug, Dungeon Crusher, Hit and Run, Physical Prowess, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Fighter.

Add all that stuff, as well as the bonuses that Pathfinder fighter gets, and the better of whichever set of feats (PF or 3.5e) and you're good.

[Larkas]

Only in the sense the 3E Paladin will be outclassed and possibly barbarian too. At this point might as well use all of the Pathfinder classes. :smallamused:

If the Fighter is the only warrior in the party then there's no problem. If there are others which you aren't going to "fix", then perhaps keep the 3E feat progression. However, in seriousness I would suggest you at least consider changing everyone to the Pathfinder classes. The spellcasters won't notice, except perhaps druid, and the rogue and warriors will be quite happy. You can keep everything else 3E if you don't want to change more into Pathfinder.

Well, you do have a point there. The PF classes are more interesting overall, anyways. The problem is: I'm only allowing T3/4, so inevitably only the melee classes will be used. Come to think of it, maybe that's actually a plus, since I don't know how comparing, say, the PF Sorcerer to the 3.5 Psion would go.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to only allow T3 characters... you have lots of options:

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Druid, with as many of these nerfs as you can manage:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

Shaman (Oriental Adventures, possible Tier 2 due to spell access, DM may need to only allow access to specific spells)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Ranger (Wildshape variant Ranger, Unearthed Arcana, SRD)

Now for WotC Affiliates and Pathfinder. Note that these are MUCH shakier in their statuses, and my info is dated...
Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)
Summoner (Pathfinder)
Alchemist (Pathfinder)
Inquisitor (pathfinder)
Magus (Pathfinder)

Now for the homebrew stuff, I link you to every class which is also a link in this thread (from which I also got much of the inspiration to this post): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

It has a variant of the Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Druid, Warmage, Swashbuckler, Monk, Barbarian, Soulknife, Marshal, along with several custom designed classes and several classes which were still 'being examined'; if there is a class or a flavor which you prefer, you can probably find something like that in that thread.

[Larkas]

Hey, thanks for such a complete list, Gavinfoxx! I'm looking that right now :smallsmile:

[Prime32]

Generally PF makes all the classes a bit more powerful (except druid), but the mechanics in other places (such as feats) nerf non-casters heavily. So a PF class will work out very different in a 3.5e game compared to a PF one. Rogue is one of the best examples here - the class looks massively improved at first glance, but even though fewer things are immune to sneak attack it's likely a PF rogue will be sneak attacking once per round where a 3.5e one was sneak attacking 8/round (plus 3.5 rogues can overcome SA immunity through items and ACFs, while PF rogues can't).

[Larkas]

Is that so? Hmmmm... I really like my Pathfinder core book so far, must be the nicest looking RPG book I got since Draconomicon 3.5, not to mention that, regardless of some strange rulings, it is generally very solid. But I'm starting to think I'll use it mainly for classes and that CMB/CMD change, or at least adapt it to work mainly in a mostly 3.5 environment, like a 3.P game, but relying on 3.5 for most of the ruling. Would you care to expand on the rogue's negative changes? The positive are obvious enough.

On a side note, the Barbarian is a mystery to me. I don't know what made them revert the changes from the Beta version. I know it added complexity, but it also made the class work a little different from the other melee classes and introduced a way to burn rage rounds to get some greater effects. Maybe it needed some fine tuning, of course, like making Greater and Mighty rage not consume more points, but otherwise it was nice and fresh. Really, I have no idea why they dumped it. Thankfully, it was fleshed out enough that homebrewing it back should pose no great challenge.

[Feralventas]

As far as PF Fighter goes, it seems to raise the floor-level bottom line a bit to make it easier to start off with, but the feat alterations lower the roof to keep them from going nuts with it; similar in nature to how a 3.5 fighter can out-damage a warblade, but falls well behind in utility and situational options.

Then again, I watched a PF Cleave spec'd barbarain tear through a flower of death (enemies flanking on all sides) in a single round, so I'd say the effect isn't all that terrible when taken in context of level-appropriate encounters.

'Casters didn't get an inherent debuff of any sort, though some spells got re-worked to be weaker; polymorph and a lot of the transmutation effects have been brought down to size. Barbarian's Rage Powers also make them more viable as they progress (though the dragon totem's rage-powered-jetpack is a bit silly.)

If you're going to be allowing PF's fighter, I'd suggest considering the Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/tactician) Archetype to give them a bit more value to the party. If you know the game won't be taking place in dungeons or non-mount-accessible locales, then the Cavalier might be more appropriate.

[Larkas]

Maybe the mistake is thinking about the Pathfinder's rules in a 3.5 rules mindset. Things can still be optimized, just maybe in a different way.

On the subject of the archetypes, I think I'll allow all of them. They are simply class variants, after all, and more balanced than 3.5's, I think. More variety is never a bad thing, anyways :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maybe the mistake is thinking about the Pathfinder's rules in a 3.5 rules mindset. Things can still be optimized, just maybe in a different way.

Oh sure. Now, the GOD wizard is heavily nerfed, so you just play a conjurer that casts Summon Monster for multi-summoning, as well as Planar Binding during his free time, and casts Haste to buff all of them up, and maybe buff the fighter and rogue if they get caught by the Haste spell. But your excellent BFC and some good debuffs are now nerfed.

Druid was nerfed. But it can still turn into a bird and fly around while using spells. Or cast Air Walk.

Cleric was not nerfed, at least as far as I can see, when compared to a core 3.5 cleric, which is tier 1.

Sorcerer got undeniably buffed. Bloodlines are nice, but the real power is the human sorcerer favored class ability. But like the wizard, they can't be that effective if they just weaken enemies and leave them for the melee, they have to play mean to unlock their full power.

And for the fighter, it cannot be optimized like it could in 3.5. I'm not talking about the charger, I'm talking about a good, solid control build with Stand Still (heavily nerfed in PF) and Improved Trip (somewhat nerfed in PF, but noticeably so against enemies of your own size or smaller, as well as the fact that you no longer get a free attack. And the Greater Trip attack is an AoO, it does not count as free). I guess PF has Antagonize, but it isn't all that great when compared to the 3.5 Zhentarim Soldier with Imperious Command, which gives you a chance to take out enemies within 30 feet for one round as a swift action.

[Prime32]

And the Greater Trip attack is an AoO, it does not count as freePlus you'd get an AoO when they stood up anyway, and you're giving that up by using Greater Trip. So, uh...


Would you care to expand on the rogue's negative changes? The positive are obvious enough.Some I see mentioned a lot:
You can't sneak attack with splash weapons, nor can you draw more than one splash weapon per round even if you have Quick Draw or your allies hand them to you (:smallconfused:). This makes enemy Damage Reduction more of a problem, and means rogues can't deal as much damage against things with elemental vulnerabilities (like red dragons).
Lots of spells and magic items which made it easier for the party rogue to set up sneak attacks (eg. grease and blink) no longer do so.
There is no way to bypass immunity to sneak attack.
Tumble DCs are much higher, making it hard to get into flanking position. There is a feat which grants immunity to flanking.
Everyone has broader class skills, having a skill as cross-class doesn't mean much any more, and some races/classes get +10~+12 bonuses, making the rogue relatively less useful as a skill monkey.
It's too hard to get Pounce. Getting Pounce requires you to be an Andalite. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)

Again, none of these are part of the class itself, so they wouldn't come up in a 3.5e game.

As for the barbarian's 1/rage powers... note that if you're immune to fatigue (from Tireless Rage or the right race) you can just leave and re-enter rage as a free action.

[Larkas]

I don't remember saying anything about balancing with Tier 1. Pathfinder is as balanced as 3.5, that is to say, not at all. Tier 1 is still Tier 1, Tier 2 is still Tier 2, though arguably stronger. The topic is about the possibility to use Pathfinder's classes, specifically the Fighter, in a 3.5 environment, where it would be more balanced in a Tier 3/4 game. The discussion about optimizing the Fighter in a Pathfinder environment is incidental, as my players will be using 3.5 rules anyways. I still think there must be some other way to optimize the Fighter and that most people tend to compare what he can't do in PF to what he could do in 3.5 instead of focusing into what he can actually do, but I'm not too familiar with the game yet, so that's an uninformed opinion at best. I CAN agree that they could have added new options to bruisers without removing several others, but that's beyond the point, and doesn't have much to do with the subject of the thread.

So, uh... Do you have further ideas? :smalltongue: Any other class I should replace with the Pathfinder equivalent? I'm thinking Barbarian and Rogue in addition to the Fighter. Is the Monk any better? In 3.5 it is also T5, after all, and even worse than the Fighter, but PF doesn't seem to address that at all, being only marginally better.

EDIT: Sorry 'bout that, Prime32, I only saw the edit to your post now! Indeed, these are some senseless changes to mechanics. And at least the Barbarian's rage power availability is easily fixed. Do you think this is better than the rage points solution?

EDIT2: On the Pounce availability, you can always rely on "backwards compatibility". Spirit Lion Totem substitution levels are thoroughly compatible with the PF Barbarian, for example. The compatibility isn't perfect, and many times not possible at all, but this is an example that works. In my humble opinion, you have to make the most of it. Pathfinder doesn't have nearly as much material as 3.5 has, and arguably never will. It wasn't very easy getting pounce in 3.5 Core now, was it? :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Didn't Druids get it easily?

[ericgrau]

I think the issue here is that PF mostly gives attack bonus and AC boosts which the 3.5 fighter is already excellent at. If you like the 3.5 fighter that's fine but it doesn't sound like you do.

[Larkas]

I think the issue here is that PF mostly gives attack bonus and AC boosts which the 3.5 fighter is already excellent at. If you like the 3.5 fighter that's fine but it doesn't sound like you do.

I really don't, but that is irrelevant in this case. The player already selected his class and is a Fighter 6, so... I'll only be giving him more goodies :smallsmile:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Use the benefits of the PF Fighter with the capacity to change archetypes as appropriate for his build, plus the Zhentarim Fighter variant for free.

Then, recommend some martial maneuvers from Tome of Battle, to be taken as bonus feats or something. Some good low-level ones (that don't fundamentally change his character type) include:
Steel Wind (1 extra attack at full bonus, allows you to attack two different enemies, allows for two attacks as a standard action)
Wolf Fang Strike (two attacks with two weapons at -2/-2 as a standard action, allows for two attacks as a standard action)
Flashing Sun (an extra attack at your highest attack bonus in a full-round action, but at -2/-2)
Punishing Stance (gain an extra 1d6 of damage on attacks, but -2 AC)
Battle Leader's Charge (charge without AoOs, +10 damage on the charge)

All of these give the Fighter *something* to do on rounds that he can't full attack, like attacking two people, or making a charge that does some good damage (without optimization), and so on. The first two (Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike) are abilities that do nothing but give you extra attacks (with conditions) on your standard action, and they're available at level 1. That way, your Fighter has options when he needs to use his move action to do *something*.

[Prime32]

Didn't Druids get it easily?Pounce? Yeah, there are a few ways to get it in PF, but most require heavy investment. Druids can get it from wild shape, but wild shape has been (sensibly) nerfed. The easiest route is Synthesist summoner, which is basically the same thing as 3.5e wild shape except that you also get more hit points.

[deuxhero]

I meant in core 3.5.