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View Full Version : Is it my turn already? Where are we? (A rant...)



Lord of Shadows
2012-04-04, 06:30 PM
Apologies if this has already been hashed out elsewhere, and if it has please pass along the relevant link(s).

This is mainly directed at the DMs/GMs out there who run the traditional table top RPG that makes use of character sheets, books, dice, and similar materials. Historically, these materials were on paper, and pencils (or other writing utensils) were used to keep track of what was going on. This included things like mapping, treasure, background, advancement, etc.

As electronics (laptops, iPhones, etc.) became more common, players (and DM's) began using them to keep track of things. A laptop was alot easier to carry around than a dufflebag full of books and papers. If both player and DM had one, they could communicate in relative secrecy about things only that player's character would know. But, as with all things that improve our lives, there was also a darker side.

Having instant accesss to the Internet made it possible for people to surf the 'net, or play any of the thousands of available time-wasters, or listen to music, or do any of a hundred other things. Even without Internet access, enough stuff could be stored on one of these devices to keep a person occupied for hours jumping over obstacles, or shooting balloons, or watching the latest videos.

Some tabletop RPG players, during what they perceive as "downtime" (usually whenever their character is not directly involved in current events) become invoved in these "outside-the-RPG" activities, and before long they cease providing any meaningful input into the game itself. They offer no suggestions for things as simple as which way to go at a corner. When they are "suddenly" called upon to give their character's actions, common responses include the ones used for the title of this post. Granted, some people are able to keep track of multiple things at once better than others, and they do pay attention while idly browsing the latest, coolest time-waster. Sometimes, they draw in the person next to them, or across the table from them, or - in the worst cases - everyone else.

As anyone reading this might have guessed, this post is the result of one such evening of gaming, when one player's character had information that was relevant to what was being discussed (and was present in the party), but chose instead to occupy their perceived "downtime" with some stupid little Internet time-waster game.

Not that it really matters in the big picture, but this is a "home-brew" style campaign that the DM (your humble author) spent many weeks and months preparing, and made it a point to tell the players that they NEEDED TO PAY ATTENTION to be successful. No, this was not the first time this had happened, and no, this isn't the only player at the table who has become distracted (and distracted others) with some YouTube video or humourous image. It just finally got to me and I asked the player point blank if they would rather play their game or the RPG. The player packed up and left.

My D&D experience began quite a while ago, so I guess I am what some would call an "old-schooler," and I remember as a player when we ALL paid attention to what was going on, not so much out of consideration of the game, but because you never knew when something might come up that was important (whether it be combat or simply casting a vote on which way to go). Much of the time, paying attention also contributed to your character's longevity.

Nowadays, it seems that alot of the players have a "oh well" attitude and if their character dies they just roll up a new one and keep going (much like re-spawning in video games, could there be a connection?) or if they die too many times they lose interest and go do something else.

I would hate to ban electronics at the gaming table, as I make use of many online resources while gaming. I am interested in what solutions others who have faced this problem have come up with.

Thank you.

End of rant. :smallamused:

Averis Vol
2012-04-04, 06:58 PM
this exact reason is why i banned all other electronics at the table, barring phones, my players do occasionally get important calls so i'm understanding when they have to take them. i found its best to just be firm and tell them, "no external electronics,write out your character sheets and leave the laptops in the other room. if we need to look anything up i'll do it."

some saw this as unfair until i asked them to recap the last four sessions and they couldn't. since then i've actually had group participation, up until now my least social player had been doing all the talking (which of course i'm proud of :smallbiggrin:) point is, if they actually care about the game they'll put the stuff away. those who don't should be replaced by someone who does, its only fair to the group for everyone to be interactive.

Greyfeld85
2012-04-04, 07:03 PM
It seems to me that if the player was actually interested in what was going on inside the game, they wouldn't get distracted by youtube videos or what have you.

Talakeal
2012-04-04, 07:07 PM
It seems to me that if the player was actually interested in what was going on inside the game, they wouldn't get distracted by youtube videos or what have you.

That's kind of a self defeating cycle. If they don't pay attention they won't become interested, and if they don't become interested they don't pay attention.

valadil
2012-04-04, 08:18 PM
One trick I found is that during combat you shouldn't just call out the player whose turn it is now, you should also call out the player whose turn is next. "Tormak, you're up. Rethwin, you're on deck." Solves so many problems in combat since players are ready to go when their turn starts.

During my last game I was displeased by iPhones at the table, but not enough to ban them. I was mostly able to hold the players captive. One of the players thought Angry Birds was more interesting than my game though. I told the group that if they looked bored, I'd try to engage them and bring them back into the game. But if they looked like they were more interested in a distraction, screw 'em! I'd focus on the players who cared instead. Nobody had a problem with this policy.

Anyway, I think you'd be within your rights to ban electronics at the table. As a player I've been guilty of playing on my iPhone, but I'd be thrilled to have a GM who wouldn't let that stand. I'd gladly sacrifice my own email/facebook distraction if it meant everyone at the table was paying attention.

Depending on where you live and who you live with, you could get away turning of wifi but allowing players to keep their laptops. That never worked for me because I live in a college town and my apartment is beset on all sides by insecure wifi connections.

bloodtide
2012-04-04, 08:29 PM
Banning electronics is the way to go. Most people simply can not control themselves. They are helplessly 'plugged in'.


You also might want to extend the game play a bit. A lot of gaming groups make this mistake: They get together once a week and have no other contact with each other, very late in the day like 7PM and plan to game from 7 to midnight. Somehow they are expected to step in the door and instantaneously play the game. Of course, by 7:20 everyone is more concerned about catching up and sharing stories and sharing videos online then they are about playing the game. And that assumes everyone even shows up at 7.

The simple solution is get together early. Get together at 5pm and not 7pm. Let everyone hang out and talk and share things for two whole hours. And once that is all out of every ones systems, then they can play.

Alaris
2012-04-04, 08:32 PM
Well, at one of the games I play in, and one of the games I run, I have one... maybe two such players.

One of them always has ear buds in his ear during game. At least, ALMOST ALWAYS. When he is involved in the scene, it's usually one earbud... but when I'm next to him, I can hear music in the background. When he's not involved directly, he's off in "youtube video" or "random video game X" land, and has NO CLUE what's going on when he is brought back into the game. He's one of my close friends, so I have yet to bring it up... but when I'm running a game, it is kind of annoying.

The other player seems to have taken note from the first player, and has been slowly drifting towards that camp. He borrowed headphones from another player during a few recent sessions, and vanished into random Youtube videos, or music.

Honestly, I feel like a ban of electronics would help... but it would also piss off the players, and they may gain disinterest in the game out of spite. Many players take notes on their laptops, have their character sheets on them, etc... but it's also a hefty distraction from the actual game.

@Valadil: Well, turning off the Wifi would be a decent solution, and I'd recommend it. Sadly, we play at my friend's house, and he wouldn't go for it.

Needless to say, I've been debating what to do for a while now. I know I will gain ire if I try to ban laptops. And the whole "you can just find new players" thing isn't a viable option... as I have tried to get additional players, and found a resounding ONE who may be possibly interested in joining my game.

Ugh...

Katana_Geldar
2012-04-04, 08:40 PM
I don't think it's too much to ask for people to turn their phones/tablets/laptops/mp3 players off during the game. You are the GM, putting on this game for them and all they have to do is show up and roll dice. The least they could do is give you their attention.

With my group I was rather forgiving. Phones are silent unless you're expecting an important call (then tell me in advance). If I get a call, I'll only answer it if it's important and I'll declare a break beforehand.
I'll use a laptop for books or notes, but that's about it. Players shouldn't use them and it was up to them to say they had trouble printing their character sheet. Tablets were slightly better, I could see your face.
Earbuds in is just plain rude.

However, do give breaks now and again. You and the players need it during long sessions.

Provide notepads and offer to print sheets if you have to so you can get them to stop.

Kogak
2012-04-04, 09:02 PM
My first DM (back in AD&D days) had a simple policy. You are here to play D&D, you do so. Phones were fine (granted cell phones were still 'new fangled things that let the wife find you during your day of D&D') as long as you kept it brief and stepped out of the room. We met once a month for the whole day on a weekend, spent time BS'ing with one another. If a piece of information was not vital to completing our goal, you had to darn well remember it yourself (I forgot the activation word to a dancing sword of quickness due to this blasted rule), and if it was vital, he would give you a wisdom check (to determine if that crystal statuette being described as the phylactery of the evil lich in any way sounds like the one you sold two weeks ago to a nobleman behind the group's back as they tended to the wounded thief...). If you were smart enough to write it down, however, then good for you.

If he felt you were not paying attention and you had to ask the above mentioned questions, your character was suddenly struck with amnesia and forced to make a decision blind if a party member wasn't feeling nice enough to give you some advice (these people would strip you down and take the 'good stuff' as soon as you fell unconscious to ensure 'peak efficiency', so even if they did help you could only trust about 35% of the time...).

Always ask for a marching order. If a player is not paying attention and does not mention where they are, I guess they had an absentee seizure and remained behind. When they suddenly find themselves alone a handful of times they'll learn right quick to pay at least a little attention. When they find themselves barely paying attention and saying "I follow so-and-so", then they will get the worst positions in the marching order and get hit by all the ambushes. Again, they will learn to fight for the good spots. Best of all, they cannot really blame you for assuming that their character does nothing, when they fail to say (s)he does anything.

prufock
2012-04-04, 09:14 PM
When they are "suddenly" called upon to give their character's actions, common responses include the ones used for the title of this post.
...
It just finally got to me and I asked the player point blank if they would rather play their game or the RPG. The player packed up and left.
...
I would hate to ban electronics at the gaming table, as I make use of many online resources while gaming. I am interested in what solutions others who have faced this problem have come up with.

Are you the DM?

1. Skip the player's turn. If the player isn't paying attention and is unprepared for their actions, rule that their character is likewise distracted. Say "well, figure out what you want to do for your next turn" and move on to the next one.

2. I hope you didn't invite that player back.

3. You can't really "ban" items unless the group agrees. When I DM we have a group agreement that no phones, no laptops, no tablets - except for the DM. I don't see any problem with it. Check your phone during breaks. You don't need a pile of resources as a player - you should know the rules and your own character's abilities.

LibraryOgre
2012-04-04, 09:36 PM
Once again, the solution is Hackmaster.

Since Hackmaster doesn't have rounds, instead proceeding second-by-second through combat, people can move and fight and do all sorts of things during a combat... but if they're not paying attention on their second, well... I guess the opportunity passed them by.

Alaris
2012-04-04, 09:45 PM
Once again, the solution is Hackmaster.

Since Hackmaster doesn't have rounds, instead proceeding second-by-second through combat, people can move and fight and do all sorts of things during a combat... but if they're not paying attention on their second, well... I guess the opportunity passed them by.

...seriously? Hackmaster is that... free-form? O.O I'm actually curious about it now. I don't think I'm converting my campaign to it, but I am very curious...

Greyfeld85
2012-04-05, 04:04 AM
That's kind of a self defeating cycle. If they don't pay attention they won't become interested, and if they don't become interested they don't pay attention.

People that just completely bugger the game and go off to do their own thing the second it isn't their turn are jerks and shouldn't be allowed to play (or should get a swift smack to the back of the head every time they do it).

However, my comment was in regards to people that just sort of drift off after a while (Which seemed to be what the OP was talking about. I apologize if I am mistaken.). That sort of behavior is indicative of players who are bored.

Ashtagon
2012-04-05, 05:10 AM
House rule where I play is no personal electronics. A mobile phone, either on the table or in a pocket, is okay, as long as the player understands that this is purely so that he can be contacted by people outside the game in case of an emergency.

The GM has full electronics access as needed to present the adventure. He may choose to designate one player to have electronics access, on the understanding that this is purely to have access to any pdf files stored locally in order to check rules. Everyone else is on paper only.

horseboy
2012-04-05, 05:53 AM
Meh,

"Back in the day" it was dice stacking. Not only did it distract one person, but the whole table, then it fell and everybody had to go find their dice. Or it was somebody drawing boobs on a spare piece of paper, or it was trying to figure out where the Cheetoes went, or somebody's kid. There's always been distractions and distracting players it's not electronics's fault. It's something you've got to learn to deal with as a GM. Though it is nice to vent about it once in a while.

Brauron
2012-04-05, 06:02 AM
My rule is no laptops at the table except for the DM's (me). I ran a CofC game a while back set in the modern day and based off of UFO conspiracy material, so I allowed the players to use their laptops and Wikipedia to research the stuff they were dealing with in game -- I figured it would make things a little more interesting and engaging.

Within two minutes the players were IMing cat memes to each other.

So now no laptops, and I ask players to silence their phones as well. I'd love to be able to ask them to turn their phones off (several of my players actually do anyways), but one of my players has a crazy mother who, if she doesn't answer the phone when her mom calls, assumes she's been kidnapped.

Edog
2012-04-05, 07:53 AM
Meh,

"Back in the day" it was dice stacking. Not only did it distract one person, but the whole table, then it fell and everybody had to go find their dice. Or it was somebody drawing boobs on a spare piece of paper, or it was trying to figure out where the Cheetoes went, or somebody's kid. There's always been distractions and distracting players it's not electronics's fault. It's something you've got to learn to deal with as a GM. Though it is nice to vent about it once in a while.

You have a good point. I remember my dice-stacking days, before everyone in the group got a laptop. But that's not to say electronics are entirely blameless.

The internet (from a phone/laptop/whatever) is a much more interesting distraction than a pencil and paper, and some players are more easily distracted than others. These players should probably be asked to at least disable the internet on their devices, and shouldn't be playing any games either, unless their character is out of action for a long while for some reason.

That said, people need breaks from the game. They can't focus on it forever. So at the end of a tough battle, or when the characters head off to rest, take a rest for a while. It'll help everyone; you too, you'll get a chance to go over the next part of the adventure. Don't be afraid to call a stop if people are starting to lose focus.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-04-05, 07:58 AM
Honestly, just ban the electronics. You don't need more than one, possibly two laptops to look things up, one is the DM's and the other needs to be laying somewhere away from the table. Phones? I don't care if htey're smart phones or not, but if they're being used it better be either an important call or an important text message.

The problem is people are so used to being connected o everything all the time it's not natural for them to disconnect anymore, it's not a lack of respect or a lack of caring, it's just a behavior that's so common it's become natural and you actually need to tell people to not do it and set rules against it otherwise the default reaction for most people is "They didn't say anything so it's ok.".

DigoDragon
2012-04-05, 08:25 AM
As a less stringent policy, you can allow electronics, just change the password of your wireless network. Though this assumes any neighbors with wireless networks also password protect those. Usually they do, but occasionally there's the unsecured line...

Gravitron5000
2012-04-05, 08:54 AM
One of the players thought Angry Birds was more interesting than my game though.

This is a perfect excuse to have that player's character attacked by some angry birds. Queue up the raptorian barbarian ambush!

Ozreth
2012-04-05, 08:58 AM
Just use old school initiative. Everybody declares actions first, then initiative is rolled and the action unfolds. This way there is no waiting around for your turn. Then initiative is re rolled every round. Keeps you on your toes.

valadil
2012-04-05, 10:46 AM
This is a perfect excuse to have that player's character attacked by some angry birds. Queue up the raptorian barbarian ambush!

I. Er...

Why didn't I think of that?!

LibraryOgre
2012-04-05, 10:46 AM
...seriously? Hackmaster is that... free-form? O.O I'm actually curious about it now. I don't think I'm converting my campaign to it, but I am very curious...

Sure. Each second, you can move about the battlefield, and you can make attacks as fast as your weapon will allow.

And, if you're curious, you can currently get 5 copies of the Hackmaster Basic book for $25 dollars plus S&H from KenzerCo (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?products_id=808) as they make way for the Player's Handbook (HMB is a full game, just with fewer options than the not-yet-released-in-print Player's Handbook).



This is a perfect excuse to have that player's character attacked by some angry birds. Queue up the raptorian barbarian ambush!

When in doubt, Umber Hulks.

Thinker
2012-04-05, 11:12 AM
My gaming group and I haven't played in a sit-down P&P game for years now. We play online using Maptool, Dicelog, and Mumble every week (two campaigns by different DMs alternating by weekend). By virtue of how we play, everyone constantly has access to everything on the internet, their entire Steam game libraries, IM, email, etc. We never seem to have a problem with people being distracted. We simply make sure to engage each player when there is no combat.

Madwand99
2012-04-05, 12:19 PM
One solution I don't reccommend for every group, but that I've seen work very well in the past could work for you: Only roll initiative once per group. i.e., either the enemy or the PCs go first. Each group goes in turn, acting in the order they choose. When it's the PCs turn, they can act in any order they decide as a group. This requires somewhat more attention as the PCs have to be paying attention to make the best decision about when they want to act. If they are too involved in a game... they never act.

Oh yeah... and I would flat out ban playing games/web browsing/music. If you refuse to pay attention, leave the game.

Dsurion
2012-04-05, 12:34 PM
Hmm, I've never had a problem with laptops, but then I've never been in a game where everyone was using one. Almost always, I, or the DM has a laptop open solely for being ready to search for things. Everyone else seems to simply respect leaving them away/out of reach otherwise.

Phones are a little different. We don't ban them, but we make certain to collectively stare the person down that's holding up the group until they're finished, to lay on the pressure if the call/text/whatever isn't important.

Scowling Dragon
2012-04-05, 01:35 PM
Dice stacking has to do more with your body screaming in mental anguish as it demanded to do something.
I gave both my players finger gum and dice stackin disapears.

I would suggest only GMs being allowed a labtop as it is incredibly usefull for gms who need 5 books at a time, unlike players that need only 3 papers.

Lord Torath
2012-04-05, 01:59 PM
I would recommend a Ban on electronics that aren't the DM's. But don't spring it on them at the start of the session. Discuss it with them as you wrap up for the night (or whenever you end your sessions), and let them know you'd like to implement it for the next session to see how it goes.

Again, I'd allow phones to remain on, but off the table. Headphones are right out.

Again let, them know that you enjoy playing with them, but not when they're not paying attention.

I suspect that if you discuss it with them reasonably and rationally, any who really enjoy playing with you won't have a problem with it.

SowZ
2012-04-05, 02:11 PM
As a DM, I've found fifteen minute breaks every hour and a half are helpful in this regard.

nedz
2012-04-05, 02:46 PM
What you need is an EMP device :smallcool:

I've never really had this problem. One of my players uses a lap top for spell lists spreadsheets, but then he is playing a high level Cleric with a Wizard Cohort. He uses it to look things up sometimes also, and for the parties loot list spreadsheet. I don't bother with a laptop personally.

I have had to deal with other distractions, but they're generally external things which interrupt the player.

Anxe
2012-04-05, 03:04 PM
My group plays almost exclusively through Google Hangouts, so all of us are always plugged in. However, when one of us is surfing the web and they find something cool they link it in the chat. That way its still a communal fun thing to do no matter what it is. You could try doing this.

If we start drifting too far from D&D we say that all off topic stuff can go in the text chat instead of being spoken. Not sure how this one would work in real life though.

Karoht
2012-04-05, 03:13 PM
We had the same problem with a fellow who brought his laptop. He never used to to listen to music, and I don't know what he was looking at on the internet.

Yet, we turned on the radio one week, and he never brought out the laptop again.

Still not sure exactly how/why that worked, but there it is.

Fatebreaker
2012-04-05, 03:14 PM
The solution is not to ban electronics, because electronics are not the problem.

The real problem is that your players are some combination of bored, uncommitted, and/or rude.

If they are bored, then you need to review how you DM. How much do you engage the players? How much time do you focus on one player over another? How much time do you focus on you? Are your providing interesting challenges to each player? Is your game tailored towards one style of play over another? Is there a compelling reason for the bored player to pay attention? How can you recapture their attention? There's a lot of questions you can (and should) ask yourself on a regular basis to improve your game; bored players are a good sign that you should be asking (and answering) more of them (or be more honest in the answering!).

If they are uncommitted, then you need to sit and have a talk with them, and possibly the party as well. Why aren't they committed? What would compel them to take a more active role in the game? Are they here because they want to be here? If not, why are they here? Maybe they're only there because they want to hang out with one or more of the other players, in which case, having a chat with those folks might be a good idea. Ask them to associate on their own time, but if they're not really interested, it's not fair to everyone else. Maybe they don't like their character, or the system, or maybe there's something wrong in their life. Talk to the player or players, and see if you can work it out.

If they are rude, well, boot them and move on. Life's too short to tolerate [redacted].

You may end up banning electronics. It's an option. A lot of people here have advocated it; some even say that they've had no problems with it. But I would advise that, before you take that route, you find out why your player(s) are behaving the way they are.

A bored player who has their distraction taken away is not suddenly going to become unbored. Now you have made him more bored. This is not a solution.

Likewise, an uncommitted player will still have whatever underlying problem they had before. That will still need to be solved.

And a rude player with a distraction is ... actually, that's better than a rude player who is now also a bored player. Of course, why are you playing with folks who don't respect you in the first place?

--

Side Notes:

Also, it's worth asking yourself: "Are there players using electronics who are not a problem?" Because if you ban them from using electronics when they weren't doing anything wrong, you have now created an entirely new and exciting problem! So even if you do go down the ban-road, be careful how you do it.

Also also, don't get hung up on phrases like "old school." I was there, too, and there's nothing inherently better about gaming then than now. A lot of things have actually changed for the better. The point isn't to get into a then-vs.-now debate. The point is that electronics are actually one of those "changed for the better" tools that you can really use to help with your games. Whether it's music to help set the tone of an encounter, all your rules in one convenient (...and easy to carry...) location, tons and tons of artwork ("You meet this guy! (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4art/20110812)") at your fingertips, electronic maps, you name it, there are all sorts of reasons to celebrate how we aren't stuck in the old school gaming world. And they have uses for players just as much as for DM's. If your players cannot responsibly handle the toys of today, well, that's on your players. The old school crowd had their own ways to not listen to what the DM was saying. Heck, it's practically tradition!

Also also also, some folks have mentioned using other distractions to negate the electronic distraction. This could very well be a grand solution. Some folks just need something little to help them focus on something big. Taking away all their distractions actually makes it harder for them to focus. Worth a thought.

--

In short? Don't ban the symptom. Cure the disease.

Physics_Rook
2012-04-05, 04:08 PM
*Some very interesting insight.*

This is some wonderfully thought out and worded advice.

Fatebreaker has hit upon the key issue, but to restate it more generally:
If the players are doing something/taking some action, why?

If a player is choosing to be less then fully engaged by the game, why are they choosing to do so?

Sometimes the answer isn't an easily solvable one.
Maybe the story is engaging to them, and they thoroughly enjoy exploring and experiencing the world, but what if they get bored listening to/waiting while the other players take their actions? It's nothing to do with the others taking very long, just that the player isn't interested in whatever it is they're doing.
This sort of discussion is better left for GMing threads though.

Electronic devices can speed up gameplay (and reduce headaches) when used appropriately. It's a good idea to establish some rules (or suggestions) such that all electronic devices at the table are only used:
1) For emergencies.
2) For the game.
3) Away from the table for all else.

It shouldn't be a problem for a player to be contacted mid-game in case of an emergency. Emergencies shouldn't be delayed for any amount of time. :smallsmile:

Electronic devices used in-conjunction with the game can be great when done well (not covered in this thread). :smallbiggrin:

If a player feels the need to do something other then participate in the game, they should probably do so where they won't be a distraction/inconvenience to the other players (GM included). :smallfrown:

Shadowknight12
2012-04-05, 04:57 PM
I am not a fan of telling other people what to do, as I do not let others tell me what to do. Hence, the idea of banning electronics is unthinkable for me.

Having said that, I have frankly no problem with players who self-amuse. They're far less of a load on me as a DM and vastly outrank in my eyes the players who constantly demand my attention to amuse/entertain them. Also, since I myself have a "who cares" attitude to gaming, I very much prefer players who share that laid-back, undemanding attitude. It also makes leaving the group far less of a hassle.

Lord of Shadows
2012-04-05, 05:28 PM
There are some EXCELLENT ideas flowing here, thoughtful and well written. A big thank you to all who have posted.

Some thoughts in response. First, yes, I am a DM for this group.

The Players

It is true that game time is the only time each week that this entire group gets together, and we have had the problem in the past of the first few hours (yes, hours...) turning into gossip time and "hey, look at this" time. We have pretty much gotten over that, it seems, and have reached a good balance there.

Not everyone in our group has a laptop, so the 'communal gaming' idea is not quite available here yet. Everyone has a cell phone, and their use has not become an issue.

Not everyone who has a laptop misuses it all the time. Those who have one store their characters on it (HeroLab is common, as well as home-brewed Spreadsheets) along with extensive resources.

The Characters

Each character has been given (and continues to receive) "pieces of the puzzle," so to speak, to advance the adventure and to help figure out what the BBEG is up to. A player who is not paying attention misses the opportunity for their character to contribute what is possibly an important piece of the puzzle.

We do use a marching order, and an individual Initiative system. Another DM in our group actually uses a timer on each player and if you aren't paying attention, or take too long, you miss your turn. The "party initiative," where there is one roll and the party decides internally when each player will go, sounds interesting.

The perception of the core problem as "bored, uncommitted, or rude" was interesting. I believe some of that may be the case here.

Further thoughts

One response that it seems might be effective is to allow the laptops for the gaming materials, but to turn off the Internet access. It is mostly the Internet that seems to distract the players away from the gaming session. There aren't any nearby open networks (last time I checked, anyway) so that would be the end of that problem.

I don't know if even Hackmaster can deal with this, as the second that this laptop user wasn't having to describe their character's actions, they'd be right back at the Angry Birds or whatever. (They would put their game on pause to declare what their RPG character is doing/saying, then go back to the laptop game) <sigh>

Please keep the ideas flowing, this is helping (in a theraputic way, if nothing else :smallcool: ).

Autopsibiofeeder
2012-04-05, 05:29 PM
It is a matter of motivation, really. If players are more concerned with their internet, text messages or dice stacking than with your game than there is a problem.

-The player does not give a thing about DnD, but likes the social event
-Your campaign just is not 'good enough'
-Your campaign is good and the player likes DnD, but he is just addicted to his 'thing' (whatever it is) or too easily distracted.

Let's assume your campaign is good enough. The fun is in the game: They have a character and you have a story, in most cases that will do. What works for me (but I am of an age that relates more to dice-stacking than to youtube) is treat the player like it treats you. If a player at my table does not pay attenton to what is happening, I do not feel bad about skipping them in IC-social events or intiative order. What then happens is either the player starts feeling bad and missing out and will 'improve' and will decide he or she has to put more energy into the game or decides the game is not for him or her and will leave. Their choice, their problem.

oxybe
2012-04-05, 05:44 PM
honestly, i can't see myself gaming without a laptop anymore. the convenience of having my books, notes, dice roller, "secret note passing", GM screen, image/sound database, etc...

for the longest time i didn't care for it, but due to... technical issues... my old desktop kinda crapped out on me and since i couldn't afford to buy new top-of-the-line parts, or at least last year's top of the line, at the time i decided on getting an under 400$ laptop and focus my gaming on the PS3.

the little craptop has served me well. it does all the basics expected from a computer: it plays media, surfs the internet, plays minecraft and as an added bonus, connects to the TV for awesome viewing. while i now have the funds for a decent computer, especially if i cannabalize my old one, the laptop serves one purpose my desktop never could:

Roleplaying.

at my monday table we have : 3 laptops for 5 players (gm included, he's got one laptop, me and another player have one each) and several copies of the books.

the laptops are mainly used to store PDFs if available or scans of stuff like GM screens or Page 42, as well as the ability to quickly bring up errata, FAQs, pictures, music or sound effects. the laptops basically serve as a secondary resource / character sheet, though in both my groups we have actual sheets, it's nice to sometimes have an electronic version to bring home.

at my wednesday table we have a kinda different situation: 2 iPads, 1 other tablet & 1 laptop. one of the iPad guys twitters our game when something interesting happens or pools his twitter chums for advice, often with silly responses.

the other two tablet guys use them for ease of carry of books, as do i.

the other uses we have is that some systems are hard to get. we play games where we have at least 1 book for the group, but some are just REALLY hard to get in our location. i said our wednesday group was kinda in a different situation then our monday one: our last campaign was using the Serenity system. we had one copy of the game and the FLGS owner, one of the group's players, simply could not get any more in stock.

so we each had a copy of the PDF the book's owner made and gave us so we didn't have to pass that one book around the 8-player table.

did i forget to mention we're a big group?

yeah. we're a big group.

in both groups, we all buy books whenever possible, it's just hard at times in our little town. we might be the only store that properly stocks RPG stuff, but our town is rather small (35k-ish people). we don't download non-free games and play them at the FLGS. there is always one hard, physical copy available for the group, but if it's not available and someone wants to run it, our options are limited, especially if he goes "anyone want to roll up a PC for [system] next week?"

i've got several systems, from palladium off-shoots like the TMNT game, WoD, several flavours of D&D, GURPS, this weird batman one, ect... and several free PDF systems like TriStat, FATE, RISUS, etc... but some systems you just can't get multiple copies of around here.

i'd like to have my own copy of Serenity (or it's parent system, Cortex, though the new Marvel RPG preview they came out with definitely shows differences between it an Serenity so it might not be comparable as the system has matured since). i might not play the system often, or at all, again, but i like owning & studying systems since i'm working on my own.

but getting a copy of Serenity/Corex is just not possible without going off-province.

:smallfrown:

Alaris
2012-04-05, 11:19 PM
I am not a fan of telling other people what to do, as I do not let others tell me what to do. Hence, the idea of banning electronics is unthinkable for me.

Having said that, I have frankly no problem with players who self-amuse. They're far less of a load on me as a DM and vastly outrank in my eyes the players who constantly demand my attention to amuse/entertain them. Also, since I myself have a "who cares" attitude to gaming, I very much prefer players who share that laid-back, undemanding attitude. It also makes leaving the group far less of a hassle.

Seriously? Not to go off-topic, but do you respond to threads in contradictory to what everyone else says just to piss people off? I've seen your posts all over the board and you're always being the contradictory voice, and you always seem to just make people angry by doing so.

Regardless, you're free to your own opinion, and gaming style, and I won't criticize it any further.

@On-Topic: I do concur, however, that banning electronics as a whole won't get anyone anywhere. I mean, I have a laptop at the game I PLAY in, for taking notes purposes. It's easier for me to take good notes typing than writing, but that's just me.

At my next session, I'll be asking my "problem players" to please not wear headsets while game is in session. I'll also be trying to engage them more, so that goes hand-in-hand.

Thanks much for the advice people. ^_^

Shadowknight12
2012-04-06, 12:12 AM
Seriously? Not to go off-topic, but do you respond to threads in contradictory to what everyone else says just to piss people off? I've seen your posts all over the board and you're always being the contradictory voice, and you always seem to just make people angry by doing so.

Regardless, you're free to your own opinion, and gaming style, and I won't criticize it any further.

I frankly dislike reading a thread where my opinion is never presented or considered, and I imagine there are a lot of people who feel similarly (but perhaps feel intimidated by the slew of one-sided opinions to post), so I do my best to remedy that. It might not bring in further support or make the lurkers speak up, but I know if the situation was reversed, I'd appreciate seeing my opinion represented.

I'm sorry being different from you offends you.

Alaris
2012-04-06, 12:26 AM
I frankly dislike reading a thread where my opinion is never presented or considered, and I imagine there are a lot of people who feel similarly (but perhaps feel intimidated by the slew of one-sided opinions to post), so I do my best to remedy that. It might not bring in further support or make the lurkers speak up, but I know if the situation was reversed, I'd appreciate seeing my opinion represented.

I'm sorry being different from you offends you.

Hey, it's fine. I have no problem if your opinion is different, doesn't really offend. I'd just like to find a thread where you aren't the contradictory voice. Sorry if I seem to offend, but you exhibit several signs of being a troll (in that you APPEAR contradictory simply to get a rise out of other people).

I will not clog the thread up with anymore off-topic, and best of luck in any games you choose to play or run, ShadowKnight12.

Fatebreaker
2012-04-06, 12:32 AM
Shadowlord, I hope that you can resolve your distracted player. I have an anecdote which I find amusingly timely.

We just did character creation tonight for our Legend of the Five Rings game. Because our local hobby shop is sold out of the core rulebook (and has been unable to order more), we only had one for our entire group to work out of. And, because we were creating characters in a hobby shop, it came as less-than-surprising to me when players without access to the book began reading books for other systems and talking about future games for us to play.

I immediately thought of your predicament, and wanted to share a positive distraction. I didn't mind players not focusing on another player's character creation, and in fact found myself slightly relieved that I could focus on the player who needed help right then and there. It wasn't the most pleasant character creation session I've ever been in, but nor was it the worst. It was good to see players being pro-active and keeping themselves amused somehow.

Not all distractions are a bad thing!

At the same time, we also had some sad sod who insisted on interrupting our character creation to incessantly argue an inane point with total strangers about his own inability to separate fluff and crunch. Some distractions are a bad thing.

Lord of Shadows
2012-04-06, 03:27 PM
I am not a fan of telling other people what to do, as I do not let others tell me what to do. Hence, the idea of banning electronics is unthinkable for me.

Having said that, I have frankly no problem with players who self-amuse. They're far less of a load on me as a DM and vastly outrank in my eyes the players who constantly demand my attention to amuse/entertain them. Also, since I myself have a "who cares" attitude to gaming, I very much prefer players who share that laid-back, undemanding attitude. It also makes leaving the group far less of a hassle.


I do concur [...] that banning electronics as a whole won't get anyone anywhere. I mean, I have a laptop at the game I PLAY in, for taking notes purposes. It's easier for me to take good notes typing than writing, but that's just me.

At my next session, I'll be asking my "problem players" to please not wear headsets while game is in session. I'll also be trying to engage them more, so that goes hand-in-hand.

Thanks much for the advice people. ^_^

Thank you both for your input. I am sure there are as many different ways of gaming out there as there are players who play them.

Just because it's not my cup of tea, so to speak, doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere. The goal is to get hooked up with a group that is mostly all the same style of gaming.

randomhero00
2012-04-06, 03:31 PM
I've found (over several years) that electronics are a detriment to the game.

Lord of Shadows
2012-04-06, 03:36 PM
Shadowlord, I hope that you can resolve your distracted player. I have an anecdote which I find amusingly timely.

We just did character creation tonight for our Legend of the Five Rings game. Because our local hobby shop is sold out of the core rulebook (and has been unable to order more), we only had one for our entire group to work out of. And, because we were creating characters in a hobby shop, it came as less-than-surprising to me when players without access to the book began reading books for other systems and talking about future games for us to play.

I immediately thought of your predicament, and wanted to share a positive distraction. I didn't mind players not focusing on another player's character creation, and in fact found myself slightly relieved that I could focus on the player who needed help right then and there. It wasn't the most pleasant character creation session I've ever been in, but nor was it the worst. It was good to see players being pro-active and keeping themselves amused somehow. Not all distractions are a bad thing!

At the same time, we also had some sad sod who insisted on interrupting our character creation to incessantly argue an inane point with total strangers about his own inability to separate fluff and crunch. Some distractions are a bad thing.

Just an idea, there is some Legend of the Five Rings stuff on eBay...

Sometimes it would be nice for our sessions to be at a game store. Unfortunately there aren't any here, or nearby.

I like the "positive distraction" example... I guess that does happen here occasionally. Not with other game rules, but with other stuff. And yes, I am familiar with the sods who try to monopolize things. <sigh>

Mr.Moron
2012-04-06, 03:37 PM
I don't find it's generally a big deal. I really don't mind people flipping off into phone land for 5 minutes while we deal with something that really only applies to one person in the group.

Sometimes if we get something really extended, I'll try to find ways to include other players. We once had a relatively long scene where one character was on a date with NPC. So the other players would be the different aspects of his personality in his head trying sabotage/help him.

Such as one player being his "Insecurity" encouraging to ask questions about her previous relationships. While another might be his "Confidence" encouraging him to tell a story about one of his adventures.

He'd then decide if he actually wanted to do any of those things, if didn't it'd call for a low will save to avoid giving into his inner doubt or whatever.

We all had a ton of fun with that, so I wanna try things like that more.

If a combat came up where only some PCs were present, I'd hand the other players NPCs that might be on the scene. We actually got a recurring named character out of it who took on his own personality.


EDIT: Tldr version: I don't mind phones as distractions for short term lulls. When it comes to long term lulls I'd rather find ways to engage the players than ban electronics.

Bleddyn
2012-04-06, 10:34 PM
The goal is to get hooked up with a group that is mostly all the same style of gaming.

This is probably the best thing that can be done. Fatebreaker gave a very good description of the core problems, but what it really comes down to is personal responsibility. If all the players share an understanding of the responsibilities that go with each position at your table, the game can be successful no matter what those specific responsibilities are. If someone refuses to understand or accept these responsibilities the only true solution is to remove them from the group, any other rules or policies are just stopgap to treat the symptoms and you can't do that forever.

(My personal outlook is more like Shadowknight's; I have no desire to be a parent for a group of people who ostensibly decided they want to play a specific game and conversely, if someone wants to head up that table and act like my parent, I better be getting a pretty good allowance :smallamused:)

Jay R
2012-04-07, 11:02 PM
My DM (2E) doesn't tell you when your turn is. He calls out the segment number. "It's segment one. Who goes now? Nobody? OK, it's segment two." People pay attention because they have to recognize their own segment.

Ironvyper
2012-04-08, 01:39 PM
A combination of things is probably your best bet.

1. Definitely ban electronics and web surfing or gaming. Anyone who doesnt like it and wants to throw a hissy fit can walk. They arent adding to your game anyway by screwing around online and not paying attention.

2. Assume your first 45 minute to an hour are screw around time for catching up and other out of game stuff. Take it to chat, warm up, tell your jokes and maybe chat about some game stuff like rules questions or houserule ideas. Stuff you should talk about but not distract the game with.

3. Plan for breaks every hour or so. Personally I've always found this easy because i've always gamed with at least a few smokers and no one has let them smoke inside.

So everytime they want a little break we all get a 5 minute break. Gives everyone a chance to chat a bit and decompress, get a beer or plan. I used to hate this part of gaming but over the last few years I've learned that it can actually be a big help to be able to break stuff up.

Follow those 3 things and it should help have much more focused players.


P.S. dont be afraid to bounce a dice off of someones head and say "hey pay attention" either. The direct approach can work wonders.

sana
2012-04-08, 04:15 PM
For my group it would be unthinkable to ban electronic devices.

I even encourage my players to bring laptops, pads and so forth.
Then again I live in an IT household so our setup is a bit more then the normal household would have.

The trick is: i can take away the Internet connection within seconds while still providing access to a data server to my players. As GM i use a LAN cable and always have Internet access.

to keep them busy:
One player, randomly chosen, has to keep the loot and gold tables up to date.
Another one gets responsibility for the initiative, also included in this is warning players wen it's their turn.
Yet another has to write down the important things that happen during the session.

(all of these tasks are done on an internal wiki on the data server)

Everyone has to do a task eventually and it keeps them on their feet.
If they don't keep track of something they just don't know it or in case of items they are gone.
For initiative they lose their turns if they don't pay attention.

Also a important part the first hour is for talking, anyone can catch up and I can take time for every player who needs something.
Every 3-4 hours we take a longer break. (20-30 minutes)
While I eat, stretch my legs or just relax. Everyone can do what they want to. (my sessions run over 12 hours so breaks are really important.)

In the last 4 years i only cut the Internet off once, after a player sent me a message per IM that one guy was playing browser games on his laptop.

If a character/player can't do anything for what ever reason. I always warn the player that it might take a bit and I will warn them when something important comes up.

Solaris
2012-04-08, 05:17 PM
My groups always operate with the assumption that you can play one game at a time. As a DM, it pisses me off to no end when I'm putting hours of work and tons of energy I don't have to spare (because we are deployed) into a game and the player simply can't be bothered to pay attention.

That said, sometimes the players simply don't want to play D&D that day. It happens.

dps
2012-04-08, 05:42 PM
My groups always operate with the assumption that you can play one game at a time. As a DM, it pisses me off to no end when I'm putting hours of work and tons of energy I don't have to spare (because we are deployed) into a game and the player simply can't be bothered to pay attention.

That said, sometimes the players simply don't want to play D&D that day. It happens.

The last time I played Dnd... ...well, I didn't actually play. I ended up playing a board wargame with the neighbor of one of the other players. Though it wasn't exactly my fault--I found out that I wasn't actually welcome at the DnD table. Or more specifically, my character wasn't. (I was invited to join an on-going campaign that my brother was involved in. I showed up with a NG character, and then was told that only LG characters were allowed. I was willing to roll up a new LG character, until I found out that the leader of the party thought it was perfectily acceptable LG behaviour to sexually mutilate helpless prisioners for fun. At that point, I wasn't really interested in that campaign anymore.)

Brauron
2012-04-08, 06:37 PM
When it comes around to a player's turn in the initiative order, I tell them. If they don't have an idea of what they want to do, or only just then start shuffling through their spells, I hold up both hands with all ten fingers extended. Then I start to count down, folding down one finger every few seconds. If they haven't decided what to do by the time I run out of fingers, I would go on to the next player.

Hasn't happened yet.

Currently the only laptops at the table are mine and that of the guy taking notes. The players actually came to me and told me they didn't want to have their laptops at this game.

Yora
2012-04-09, 04:22 AM
When it is your turn, you have 6 seconds to state what your action will be, and then it takes as long to resolve the action as it takes. If within six seconds no descision is made, its the next characters turn.

Karoht
2012-04-09, 10:23 AM
When the DM tells us who is on deck after the current person's turn, I find combat goes faster. When he doesn't, it goes a bit slower.

IE
"Okay, Bob, you just saw The Paladin drop unconscious from that spell. What do you plan to do here?
Also, Mike, pay attention, you're on deck."

Eric Tolle
2012-04-09, 03:30 PM
Man, I've been in games where I wished I had a laptop to occupy myself with. Like the one with the GM who had "Hypoglycemia" and we would watch him running down and getting slower and slower because he hadn't had his lunch. Or the time the same GM got distracted with a battle involving only two characters, that lasted for five hours, giving the noncombatants a 30-second turn every 30 minutes. My wife to be managed to do a really intricate drawing, but me? I was stuck taking a nap while waiting.

So I generally sympathize with people who get bored and start doing other things- unless the player simply doesn't want to be there (like the woman who was knitting in one of my games), it's a sign that there's something wrong with the GMing or the game in general.

Lord of Shadows
2012-04-09, 08:50 PM
Man, I've been in games where I wished I had a laptop to occupy myself with.

[...]

Or the time the same GM got distracted with a battle involving only two characters, that lasted for five hours, giving the noncombatants a 30-second turn every 30 minutes. My wife to be managed to do a really intricate drawing, but me? I was stuck taking a nap while waiting.

So I generally sympathize with people who get bored and start doing other things - unless the player simply doesn't want to be there (like the woman who was knitting in one of my games), it's a sign that there's something wrong with the GMing or the game in general.

Wow, I imagine even Solitaire on a laptop without internet would have helped there. That was a failure allowed by that GM, though. Hopefully that has been discussed and remedied.

One time when several players here were "sidelined" like that, they started playing dice games. I think there are even some "supplements" available that give rules for dice and other games to keep sidelined players busy.

The Grue
2012-04-10, 04:32 AM
The last time I played Dnd... ...well, I didn't actually play. I ended up playing a board wargame with the neighbor of one of the other players. Though it wasn't exactly my fault--I found out that I wasn't actually welcome at the DnD table. Or more specifically, my character wasn't. (I was invited to join an on-going campaign that my brother was involved in. I showed up with a NG character, and then was told that only LG characters were allowed. I was willing to roll up a new LG character, until I found out that the leader of the party thought it was perfectily acceptable LG behaviour to sexually mutilate helpless prisioners for fun. At that point, I wasn't really interested in that campaign anymore.)

Sounds like a terrible GM tbh.