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RNGgod
2012-04-04, 06:55 PM
Alright, so I've been reading OotS since it came out. I recently read all of Darths and Droids, and found that pretty funny as well. However, I have never actually played D&D or any similar games.

I have many friends who do play, though. And they and I have talked long enough that if I had the desire to do so, I believe I possess the necessary knowledge of procedure, rules, etc. of the game. Which brings me to my dilemma. Silly as it may seem, a group of DnD-playing friends of mine have gathered together and concluded that despite my complete lack of experience, they would like me to GM for them.

I'm familiar with many of the rules and such, and what I don't know they have assured me I can find easily, but frankly it is advice, often riddled with anecdotes, that I seek. And I have come to these forums to seek advice from those of you who have experiences, perhaps painful ones, as GMs in various games. Things like "if you do x, your players may attempt to do y to mess with you, but a good way to get back at them is by doing z or something similar."

If any of you participated in a thread in the OotS subforum about "what you would do if you were DMing and your players tried to cast Familicide," the responses to that thread are much along the lines of what kind of advice I think would be helpful.

Thanks in advance, all.

Knaight
2012-04-04, 07:10 PM
A few things.
1) Don't start with D&D. It's an overly complicated game, and in this case puts you in a situation where you GM despite having the least rules knowledge. Use Warrior, Rogue, and Mage or similar, if you must stay within fantasy.
2) Be careful about planning. You can over plan, you can under plan, and your over planning will be someone else's under planning, and your under planning someone else's over planning. Find what works for you, and stick to it.
3) Have fun. If you aren't having fun, you will GM poorly, so relax, don't take it too seriously, and enjoy the game.
4) Be willing to experiment. Play with different games, different styles, different types and quantities of planning, so on and so forth. You'll tease out what works for you, and once you have that get comfortable in it. Then experiment some more.

hobbitkniver
2012-04-04, 07:15 PM
First of all, your friends shouldn't make you DM before you've ever played, but we'll ignore that part.

Many DM's do a terrible thing called railroading. This is when you make it follow the predetermined path so much that you make it ridiculous and very little fun for the players. If your players do something stupid they knew was a bad idea, punish them but generally, the aim is to keep it fun fr everyone so try to minimize this kind of thing.

Another thing to think about is your thoughts on when killing players is okay. Some people would never kill their players and if the party is losing a fight, you should tone it down. Some think you should play things the way you set them up and if someone dies so be it. Some of cruel bastards who think that if no one dies, it's too easy. I'll let you make your own choices here, but killing people off always leads to drama unless your players are mature (which is usually not true from what I've seen).

Always remember that DM's are not players and that having an npc die does not mean you lose. Do not get attached to any of the characters you make because npc's aren't the focus and definitely don't let them steal the show from the PC's. I had one DM who made a villain he loved and kept having her survive after we beat the crap out of her, but thats just annoying.

Sorry I couldn't help more, because I haven't got much experience as a DM but generally these are things I picked up from playing (Mostly from DM's that did them wrong).

zorba1994
2012-04-04, 08:19 PM
Find/buy a module and read it. Note, I said "read," not "run." You can choose to run it after all, but the crux of the matter here is that you see what a well-developed adventure looks like. Your adventures will never come within a mile of being as prepared as an off-the-shelf adventure, but you should at least know what you're striving for.

Also, if the players want you to DM 3rd edition with no prior experience, decline right away. This will not end well. 4th edition could be doable, as it is VERY easy for DMs to construct fair encounters using only the information in the Monster Manual.

Knaight
2012-04-04, 08:32 PM
Find/buy a module and read it. Note, I said "read," not "run." You can choose to run it after all, but the crux of the matter here is that you see what a well-developed adventure looks like. Your adventures will never come within a mile of being as prepared as an off-the-shelf adventure, but you should at least know what you're striving for.

That is really optimistic. I'd read something like this (http://www.fudgefactor.org/2005/06/building-stories-on-fly.html) instead.

Katana_Geldar
2012-04-04, 08:45 PM
I actually agree with zorba, reading an adventure actually means you can see what it needs.

I also recommend looking at the Chris Perkins robot chicken videos.

JadedDM
2012-04-04, 08:45 PM
The same thing happened to me, actually. I discovered D&D from my friends, became interested and wanted to play...so they made me their DM.

Turns out they did that so they could blatantly take advantage of my ignorance and lack of experience. They created super munchkin characters (including a dual-wielding dark elf ranger and a Zodar (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?589989-Let-s-Read-AD-amp-D-2e-Spelljammer-Monstrous-Compendium-Appendix&p=15068806#post15068806)* with ability scores of 25 down the line** and the ability to speak as much as he wanted) and strong-armed me constantly (implying they'd quit the game if I didn't give them whatever they wanted).

Ahh, yes. Good "friends," indeed.

After that, I always found myself in the role of DM, no matter where I went or what I did. I learned, though--the hard way--through experience and trial and error what worked. Over time, I became bitter, cynical...you may even say...jaded.

And that is the origin of the JadedDM.

Anyway, not saying that's what your friends are doing here, but...you know. Be on your guard and all.

*He was from the future, as I remember. He traveled into the past...for some reason.
**I later talked him down to just straight 18s down the line, and he agreed...but only temporarily, because he was weakened from time travel.

Raum
2012-04-04, 09:05 PM
I'm familiar with many of the rules and such, and what I don't know they have assured me I can find easily, but frankly it is advice, often riddled with anecdotes, that I seek. And I have come to these forums to seek advice from those of you who have experiences, perhaps painful ones, as GMs in various games. Things like "if you do x, your players may attempt to do y to mess with you, but a good way to get back at them is by doing z or something similar."One of the best pieces of advice I've seen was the simple statement: "Say 'yes' or say 'roll the dice'." All too often we GMs default to 'no'. It can kill creativity.

Watch for creativity killers. Avoid them when you can. Overplanning can be one - it makes switching to another plan more difficult. Overly detailed settings can be another, but everyone has their own comfort point. Adventure modules are similar - I completely fail to run anything containing detailed plans based on what the PCs are "supposed" to do. To me a good 'module' is a paragraph or two on set up and NPC goals possibly with NPC stats. You'll want to find what works for you.

Don't "play with yourself". Anytime you're having one NPC fight or talk to another NPC is time the PCs (and players) aren't involved as anything other than audience. Make the PCs the focus of the game but not necessarily the focus of the world.

Do add things which instigate creativity. An extraneous detail or two in a description may get picked up and turned into something important by the players. NPCs with goals and agendas make interaction more complex and spur players to react - favorably or unfavorably. In general, build a framework which you and the players can use to expand on.

In many ways I agree with Knaight's comments on D&D not being a good starting point (or ending point for that matter :smallwink: ) but I'd simply suggest playing the game you're most excited by. Something hard that interests and engages you will be more fun than something easy which bores you.

Don't be afraid of GMing, even without having played. Us old farts started that way. We survived combining laser guns and magi in the same adventures. Just don't be afraid to laugh at yourself and admit mistakes. :smallwink: They will happen - still do after years. Correct them and move on. Don't try and hide or gloss over them.

bloodtide
2012-04-04, 09:29 PM
*You sure want to stick to an adventure. You should be able to find one easy enough at a used book store, or even for free online. At the very least, this gives you a good back drop and back ground and such.

*It's important to have control of the game. Once the game starts, it's your job to keep things moving. So you should never let things slow down the game for more then five seconds. If a player starts to make a big deal about anything, be prepared to just say ''this happens'' or ''this works'' or such. Should the players get stuck, you must unstick them, and such.

*Try to avoid making to much stuff up 'rules wise'(make up as much plot, characters and fluff as you want). A lot of new DM's just go nuts with rules. Don't do that. Try to keep things as simple as possible.

*Flow is important. From time to time the game will slow down, and you will be need to pick the pace back up. The classic here is where the players get stuck on a clue or what to do.....this is where you just need to throw a kobold out at them and get things moving.

Raum
2012-04-04, 10:13 PM
*It's important to have control of the game. Pacing is important, hopefully that's what you meant.

As for controlling other portions of the game, there's a wide spectrum from 'allowing players to participate in the GM's story' to 'allowing player agency and narrative control as much as GM'. Where you decide to sit on that spectrum should be discussed with the group.

vulcanbardmoon
2012-04-04, 11:07 PM
I started GMing in a similar position, we were all new but I took the initiative on running a game. Just a few things. There is no way to be 100% for a game. What I mean by that is, there are any number of infinite things that the pc's can, and probably will try to do. There is no way you can be ready for every contingency. What I find helpful is flexibility. I personally believe one of the best skills a good GM can cultivate is on your feet thinking. Be ready to work with the player who has a cool idea. The game is at least as much about fun as rules. You're really only going to get good at deciding what works and what doesn't for you and your group by trial and error. You are going to make mistakes, you will sick stirges or ghouls on a low level party without realizing what horrors you are inflicting on them. As long as you learn from it that's fine.
I hope this helped some.

onemorelurker
2012-04-05, 01:16 AM
The same thing happened to me, actually. I discovered D&D from my friends, became interested and wanted to play...so they made me their DM.

Turns out they did that so they could blatantly take advantage of my ignorance and lack of experience. They created super munchkin characters (including a dual-wielding dark elf ranger and a Zodar (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?589989-Let-s-Read-AD-amp-D-2e-Spelljammer-Monstrous-Compendium-Appendix&p=15068806#post15068806)* with ability scores of 25 down the line** and the ability to speak as much as he wanted) and strong-armed me constantly (implying they'd quit the game if I didn't give them whatever they wanted).

Ahh, yes. Good "friends," indeed.

After that, I always found myself in the role of DM, no matter where I went or what I did. I learned, though--the hard way--through experience and trial and error what worked. Over time, I became bitter, cynical...you may even say...jaded.

And that is the origin of the JadedDM.

Anyway, not saying that's what your friends are doing here, but...you know. Be on your guard and all.

*He was from the future, as I remember. He traveled into the past...for some reason.
**I later talked him down to just straight 18s down the line, and he agreed...but only temporarily, because he was weakened from time travel.

If you're worried about this, RNGgod, it might be a good idea to restrict your first game to core-only. Not because core is more balanced than other material (it's not), but because it at least gives you a smaller number of shenanigans you need to watch out for, and overall a smaller list of things you need to remember. Then, as you get more comfortable with the system--and a sense of whether your friends are trying to screw you over--start looking into supplementary material.

Knaight
2012-04-05, 01:17 AM
If you're worried about this, RNGgod, it might be a good idea to restrict your first game to core-only. Not because core is more balanced than other material (it's not), but because it at least gives you a smaller number of shenanigans you need to watch out for, and overall a smaller list of things you need to remember. Then, as you get more comfortable with the system--and a sense of whether your friends are trying to screw you over--start looking into supplementary material.

Or you can just play with people who aren't jerks.

Ironvyper
2012-04-05, 01:51 AM
DM'ing is like sales. Bear with me here.

A.You have something to pass on (a story)
B. You have people who have something you (time and participation)

Easy enough right? Connect A and B and everyone is happy. Not so fast.

You have different possible complications..

1. Your product sucks (bad story, poor planning, railroading)

2. Your people suck (bad attitude, taking advantage of GM, social disorder
causing them to take unreasonable joy out of destroying someones hard
developed work)


Be open to recognizing 1 i.e. realize that even as a DM yes your poop does stink too sometimes.

Be gentle but firm with 2. I.E. adjusting attitude or booting, firmly applying the rules, KTFO some jerk at your table messing with everyone, or at least lead a good round of old fashioned swirly treatment to the turd and then boot him (its nearly always a him)


Mid adventure, campaign etc remember this.

Your plan will get messed with. (they will rebut you).

Accept this. Deal with it like any good salesman. Address the hardest rebuttals in your script (plan). What i mean is find all the ways they may totally derail your plan and address it before hand by planning for those.

But leave the easiest rebuttals open. If you answer the worst stuff on your own terms then when they rebut or try to derail your plan (and they will) then all they really have left to do is choose something easy for you to deal with.


Games wise rolls dont have to be pass/fail.

If someone wants to do something crazy tell them to go ahead and roll the dice. If they roll horrible it failed. No reason to look for rules. If they roll stellar then let it succeed. Why not? Your encouraging creativity.

If the roll is in the middle make it kind of work. Maybe they can try the crazy attack but theres a penalty not a bonus. Stuff like that.

Shades of grey solve lots of problems.

Edog
2012-04-05, 08:33 AM
Well, you've certainly come to the right place. There are plenty of great GMs who frequent these forums.

I'm probably not one of them, but I've still got some advice.

The first piece could vary based on how good at improvisation you are, but be prepared for the players to go somewhere unexpected. If they head out into the capital city, rather than the Moriya forest like you expected, just have a couple of NPCs statted up, with anything from a few basic traits to fully written backstories. Find something you're comfortable with. And if all else fails and you can't make up another description on the fly, don't be afraid to call a break so you can gather your mind.

Secondly, you'll make mistakes. Lots of them, probably. Just remember, when you do, that it doesn't matter. Your players shouldn't judge you, no one's going to mind if you can't get things right the first time. Just take note of them, try not to do it again, and move on.

Finally, and most importantly, make sure everyone's having fun. If anyone's bored, or unhappy, try and figure out why. If the players are bored, for example, maybe you need to pick up the pace a little. Maybe you've been overdoing the combat encounters, maybe the players don't like this NPC much, or maybe it's something else entirely. Whatever it is, try and fix it. But remember that you need to have fun, too. If you're not, again, figure out why and do something about it. Fun is the reason people play these games, and hopefully the reason you'll run them.

TL;DR version:

Be at least somewhat prepared, learn from your mistakes, and have fun.

Good luck.:smallwink:

Gnoman
2012-04-05, 04:05 PM
Do a 3-5 session campagn using the core form of whatever ruleset you decide on only (for 3.5 dnd, this would be the Player's Handbook, DMG, and Monster Manual, for Shadowrun it would be the core rulebook, etc.) This will give you practice in the role of GM and give you greater grounding in the rules, which you will need even if you're quite familiar with the rules already. You won't believe the sort of things players will come up with (imagine trying to work out the exact interactions required to use a dancing girl as an improvised weapon, for example), and you'll need to have a handle on the rules that only expericen can give you. That way your "real" campaign will go smoother and you can allow more books as needed.

Stubbazubba
2012-04-05, 08:59 PM
Try to use a pre-generated adventure at first, like one of these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1). They may not be perfect, but they do the legwork for you so you can focus on GMing more than adventure design. Adventure design is something of an art, but pay attention to the modules and what's in the MM and you'll get over the learning curve in no time.

Having read all of Darths & Droids and OotS, you probably know how you want your stories to work and your GM philosophy, and have got a good foundation for that. Now just remember to apply it when the stuff hits the fan.

As others have said, avoid 'no' as much as possible, replace it with "roll the dice" or "yes, but..."

Rules knowledge does not make a good GM, so don't sweat it. Responsibility for knowing rules can and ought to be shared, just tell everyone to be honest, this really isn't worth lying about. All you have to do is be a rules arbiter, not the repository.

Expect to be surprised, baffled, and frustrated by your players' decisions and/or actions. Just expect it going in, and when it happens, remind yourself, Hey, this is what you signed up for, remember? You expected this, and begin looking for possibilities to re-orient or save or roll with your players.

The key to this is, like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy informs us, DON'T PANIC. There's nothing you can't work your way out of! Don't be afraid to end a session early if it's really getting away from you, just say, "I don't want to go into that cave/pirate ship/mausoleum/senate chamber without having something prepared for you, we'll pick it up next time." Then come here if you need help, you'll get way more ideas than you could ever use.

Delwugor
2012-04-06, 02:46 PM
Delwugor's 1st rule of good GMing:
"Spend 75% of your time paying attention to the players, 20% looking at your notes and 5% with the rules."

Also you and the players need to understand you *will* make mistakes! Don't let that discourage you or them. As any skill you will become a better GM as you do it more.

Urpriest
2012-04-06, 06:09 PM
If it's 3.5, make sure you're confident with the rules from both a DMing and player perspective. In my heavily biased opinion, this means having a solid understanding of how monsters work. See the link in my sig.

RNGgod
2012-04-06, 06:43 PM
Thank you all for your advice!

Unfortunately, due to an...unpleasant and highly personal series of events, I will not be GMing for this group of people. However, what I've learned from you all and what appeals to me about Darths and Droids and particularly OotS is information I will definitely keep in mind, and I will say that I feel much more positive about the possibility of getting involved in tabletop games, be they DnD or other, in future.

Thanks again, everybody.