Maximizing Initiative

[zero32483]

Sorry for multiple silly question posts in one night (the earlier being about transmuting).

So I'm trying to figure out what all bonuses can be acquired through magic items to increase one's Initiative modifier, and I come across the Eager property in the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium. In addition to it's other effects, it says a Eager weapon grants the wielder a +2 bonus on Initiative checks. This reads the same way the entry for Improved Initiative's +4, without listing a type. So my question is this, does Eager work with Improved Initiative? Also, if anyone knows a way of improving Initiative other than the two methods stated above, Roaring (armor property), and Warning (weapon property) what is it and what book is it in? Thanks. ^_^ (As before, property in question listed below)

EAGER
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Melee weapon
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) evocation
Activation: —
This weapon, which is decorated with a
wing motif, vibrates slightly, as though with
excitement.
An eager weapon can be drawn as a free
action. While wielding it, you gain a +2
bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus
on damage rolls made during a surprise
round and the fi rst round of combat.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, cat’s grace.
Cost to Create: Varies

[Varil]

Swordsage? Anything that boosts dex? A couple spells from the Spell Compendium(Sign and Nerveskitter come to mind).

You know, off the top of my head I can't think of any initiative bonuses that area actually typed(maybe those spells...), so I see no reason they wouldn't stack.

[zero32483]

Well, the bonuses granted by Warning and Roaring are typed (Insight and Competence, respectively), which is why I ask.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yollanda's Blessing (Races of the Wild) is a Halfling Only Feat that adds Wisdom to Initiative, if that's any help.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Warning weapon property in MIC gives you a +5 Insight bonus to initiative. Get a +1 Eager Gauntlet and a +1 Warning Gauntlet and you're all set.

A Hummingbird familiar (Dragon 323) gives you +4 initiative, get it via Obtain Familiar (CA) if you wouldn't normally get one or if you trade the class feature for Abrupt Jaunt or similar.

The Elf Wizard 3 substitution level (RotW) doubles the bonus your familiar grants, so that +4 becomes +8 initiative. Also use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) for Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll.

Learn the spell Nerveskitter (SC) and cast it before combat for another +5 initiative.

Later on you can also use Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) to give you up to +25 initiative.

There's a regional feat called Blooded (PGtF) that gives you +2 initiative, among other benefits.

The feat Quick Reconnoiter (CV) gives you +2 initiative, plus other benefits.

The Aggressive trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#aggressive) gives you +2 initiative, you can get up to two traits for free but they all have a drawback.

[Acanous]

Improved Initiative is a Feat bonus. It's the same for Skill Focus.
So yes, they stack.

[zero32483]

Thanks everyone! I'm definitely going to have to use this information! ^_^

[Mystic Muse]

Moment of Prescience giving a bonus is disputed, and your DM may rule that it doesn't, just so you know.

[Morph Bark]

Hire a level 1 Marshal with the Motivate Dexterity minor aura, or see if you or a party member can take one level for that aura.

[Thurbane]

When you can afford it, Ring of Anticipation (Drow of the Underdark) (8000gp). Roll twice for initiative every time, and take the best result.

[Averis Vol]

swiftblades get their casting stat as an init bonus at level 4, lurks get into to init at level ten, other then the above mentioned i can't think of anything

[hydraa]

spell shock and awe from spell comp gives flat footed suprised enemies a -10 penalty to initative

[Frog Dragon]

Initiative is a dex check, so Brains over Brawn should apply (Factotum lvl 3). As far as I know anyway.

[Snowbluff]

How can we talk about initiative without ToB? White Raven Tactics messes with init really well, and the Eternal Blade gets Island in Time lets you take a turn as an Immediate action.

I second the Swiftblade. It's a really great PrC that tends to outperform other Gish options but gets very little press.

[The-Mage-King]

Buildname: I go first.
Illumian Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade X (Or Master of Masks 1/Iajutsu Master 4/Other X)

Able Learner and Improved Initiative are needed above any other feat. Ranks in Iaijutsu Focus are recommended, as are Concentration ranks.


Total initiative bonus:

+4 Imp. Init
+1 Quick to Act
+Int Brains Over Brawn
+Cha Motivate Dex
+2 Uur Sigil
+2 Aggressive Trait
+Dex Normal Initiative bonus

Total: 9+Int+Cha.

Levels in Iaijutsu Master (PrC, OA) can make it 9+Cha+Int+Cha.


What does it do?

Well, it goes first, that much is assured. Which means that Iaijutsu Focus can be used to great effect. With only a bit of skill optimization, checks in the 40 range should be easy enough to get.

With the Swordsage levels placed properly, it can get Assassin's Stance with it's second level stance, and increase the damage dealt on turn 1 by 2d6. Rapid Assault could be used to make it more, but... That's not advised.

An interesting way to change this around is to make all levels after 11 be PrC levels- the first four as Iaijutsu Master, the last five as Master of Nine. A single level dip in Battle Dancer could do some stuff for the AC, while adding Imp. Unarmed Strike and some land speed bonuses. Assuming that there's a weapon that you can use to get effects on unarmed strike, the aforementioned Warning, Eager, and Roaring enhancements will be constantly active, increasing it by a large number.

If you cannot spare a feat slot for Quick Draw, weapon augment crystals of least Return could help, assuming that you want to use Iai Focus.

Before anyone starts going on about how Illumian doesn't qualify for Able Learner, the race is of the (Human) subtype, which qualifies it.


PHEW, that was a lot of typing.

[Morph Bark]

Buildname: I go first.
Illumian Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade X (Or Master of Masks 1/Iajutsu Master 4/Other X)

Able Learner and Improved Initiative are needed above any other feat. Ranks in Iaijutsu Focus are recommended, as are Concentration ranks.


Total initiative bonus:

+4 Imp. Init
+1 Quick to Act
+Int Brains Over Brawn
+Cha Motivate Dex
+2 Uur Sigil
+2 Aggressive Trait
+Dex Normal Initiative bonus

Total: 9+Int+Cha.

Levels in Iaijutsu Master (PrC, OA) can make it 9+Cha+Int+Cha.


What does it do?

Well, it goes first, that much is assured. Which means that Iaijutsu Focus can be used to great effect. With only a bit of skill optimization, checks in the 40 range should be easy enough to get.

With the Swordsage levels placed properly, it can get Assassin's Stance with it's second level stance, and increase the damage dealt on turn 1 by 2d6. Rapid Assault could be used to make it more, but... That's not advised.

An interesting way to change this around is to make all levels after 11 be PrC levels- the first four as Iaijutsu Master, the last five as Master of Nine. A single level dip in Battle Dancer could do some stuff for the AC, while adding Imp. Unarmed Strike and some land speed bonuses. Assuming that there's a weapon that you can use to get effects on unarmed strike, the aforementioned Warning, Eager, and Roaring enhancements will be constantly active, increasing it by a large number.

If you cannot spare a feat slot for Quick Draw, weapon augment crystals of least Return could help, assuming that you want to use Iai Focus.

Before anyone starts going on about how Illumian doesn't qualify for Able Learner, the race is of the (Human) subtype, which qualifies it.


PHEW, that was a lot of typing.

I'd make it Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Swordsage 4/Warblade 1 to start with, that way you can nab both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics right off the bat with one level of Warblade.

After that it's open. You could take a level in Trapsmith and then go into Swiftblade for 4 levels to nab Int to Initiative again. Or go Iaijutsu Master 5/Master of Nine 5. If you really are in it to maximize Initiative though, Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 is great. That leaves you with one last level. Swiftblade 5 is pretty good.

Of course, only ever use Unarmed Swordsage. Try see if Kung Fu Genius or Carmedine Monk works with Swordsage to switch the Wisdom to AC to Intelligence instead, as your Wisdom will likely not be high, unless you feel like going for a Belt of Magnificence +6.

[The-Mage-King]

Yeah, that works too.


But if you have the level open for Battledancer, why not just get Int AND Cha to AC?

I mean, you're already getting them to Init twice each, so... :smalltongue:


As you may gather, I find the Battledancer class to be a favorite of mine. Good BAB, Cha to AC, and unarmed strike? Just what I want on Master of Nine builds that I can't use unarmed swordsage for. :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

Yeah, that works too.


But if you have the level open for Battledancer, why not just get Int AND Cha to AC?

I mean, you're already getting them to Init twice each, so... :smalltongue:


As you may gather, I find the Battledancer class to be a favorite of mine. Good BAB, Cha to AC, and unarmed strike? Just what I want on Master of Nine builds that I can't use unarmed swordsage for. :smalltongue:

The problem with a level of Battledancer would be that you can no longer wear armor, whilst with Unarmed Swordsage + Kung Fu Genius/Carmedine Monk, you'd still get Int to AC as long as you'd wear light armor (and by RAW, you wouldn't get Int to AC if not wearing armor). Then you can wear a chain shirt combined with dastana and chahar-aina with all different enhancements to them, granting you a lot of different bonuses for fairly cheap and boosting your AC just as well as full plate, whilst allowing a greater Dex bonus to AC. :smallwink:

Otherwise I have to agree though. Battledancer is great and I love it on unarmoured Cha tanks (Battledancer 1/Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Something X/Abjurant Champion 5 for instance.)

[The-Mage-King]

The problem with a level of Battledancer would be that you can no longer wear armor, whilst with Unarmed Swordsage + Kung Fu Genius/Carmedine Monk, you'd still get Int to AC as long as you'd wear light armor (and by RAW, you wouldn't get Int to AC if not wearing armor). Then you can wear a chain shirt combined with dastana and chahar-aina with all different enhancements to them, granting you a lot of different bonuses for fairly cheap and boosting your AC just as well as full plate, whilst allowing a greater Dex bonus to AC. :smallwink:

Otherwise I have to agree though. Battledancer is great and I love it on unarmoured Cha tanks (Battledancer 1/Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Something X/Abjurant Champion 5 for instance.)

Yeah.

Hm...

!

Gestalt build idea. "Lazereyes McFist". Should tell you everything you need to know.

[Unusual Muse]

Get a +1 Eager Gauntlet and a +1 Warning Gauntlet and you're all set.

Good idea, but you can't wear two different magic items in the same (Hands) slot. If a Hands/Feet item is singular (e.g. Glove of the Master Strategist) it still counts as occupying the whole slot (Rings being the exception), so you can't wear two magic gloves with different properties.

[Morph Bark]

Good idea, but you can't wear two different magic items in the same (Hands) slot. If a Hands/Feet item is singular (e.g. Glove of the Master Strategist) it still counts as occupying the whole slot (Rings being the exception), so you can't wear two magic gloves with different properties.

Please state a source for this, as I have honestly never read anything of this sort in the books.

Most gloves and bracers require both to be worn to be effective, though. Are you sure you're not mistaking that rule for something else?

[Nate the Snake]

Please state a source for this, as I have honestly never read anything of this sort in the books.

Most gloves and bracers require both to be worn to be effective, though. Are you sure you're not mistaking that rule for something else?

From the SRD, Magic Items on the Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody):


One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands

A magic single glove is equivalent to a magic pair of gloves. You still have only one hands slot, even if the item doesn't occupy both hands.

[RMS Oceanic]

The gauntlets in this case are weapons, not magic items, so I think it's perfectly find to wear two gauntlets with different effects.

[Hirax]

Unless you're also going to be able to pump those stats through the sky, you're still going to probably fall around the same int range as a wizard6/swiftblade9/ab champ5 using moment of prescience, but you're going to be far less effective.

[Azoth]

Okay we got mention of WRT screwing the need for initiative, but not Celerity...really...wizards are gonna be mad at mele for trying to trump them.

Also I believe the luck blade gives a bonus to initiative. Dread Commando's give their allies a bonus to initiative just for being within 30' of them. So leadership gives up to +5 initiative.

[Jeraa]

Please state a source for this, as I have honestly never read anything of this sort in the books.

Most gloves and bracers require both to be worn to be effective, though. Are you sure you're not mistaking that rule for something else?

Magic Item Compendium, page 218.

Also, Dungeon Masters Guide, as Nate the Snake quoted.

[DeAnno]

Bands of the Iron Monkey (15,000 gp, arms, Dragon magazine Compendium) give a +2 untyped initiative bonus.

Sandals of the Vagabond (4,000 gp, feet, Complete Champion) give a +2 luck bonus to initiative.

[Cor1]

Ooh I have one!


In Races of Destiny, there is a version of the psionic power Anticipatory Strike that's second level.

That's gold. Find a way to Contingency it (ask your party wizard to do that by the spell or the feat, if psionics/magic transparency is at work, this is legal) or get it crafted it as a psionic tattoo. If you can get access to (someone who has) Psionic Tattoo Mastery (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) and get it linked to a Battery linked to a Capacitor, and to an Inducer; add some way of getting at least one power poînt a day (Psychic Refomation of one of your feats into a psionic feat that gives at least 1pp/day, or something).

Then trigger it on the condition "I'm targeted by an attack OR I'm in the AoE of a nefarious effect". It's straightforward enough. Also nothing says a power can't be tattooed to be manifested augmented, thus your place in the initiative order is basically decided to be the highest of everyone involved one round before it's rolled.

TL;DR : Contingent "It's My Turn Now" before the surprise round begins.


Seond trick : no-one has mentioned it as of yet that I've read, but there is an option called Psicrystal Enhancement, dunno what book it's from, costs 1200gp and 1200xp for both the Lesser and Greater versions. If you already have the Nimble psicrystal, that gives +2 to Initiative, you can do a ritual that gives you the option of using an immediate action to re-roll it without the psicrystal +2 bonus and keep the better roll.


Heh, a Drow Psychic Theurge with the Ring, the 'crystal, and the Luck (or was it Trickery? or Fate?) Domain could get to roll her Initiative four times...

[Curmudgeon]

Before anyone starts going on about how Illumian doesn't qualify for Able Learner, the race is of the (Human) subtype, which qualifies it.
You appear to have misread the feat.

Able Learner [RACIAL]

Prerequisite: Human or doppelganger.
It's a racial feat, with human or doppleganger as the prerequisite races. Race and subtype are different categories, and racial feats are restricted to the specified races.

Edit: As an analogy, English is a Germanic language. If someone asked if you spoke German, and you only spoke English, you could not answer in the affirmative for speaking a non-German Germanic language. Similarly, if a feat requires Human race, you do not qualify with a non-Human race which shares the Human subtype.

[Cor1]

You appear to have misread the feat.

It's a racial feat, with human or doppleganger as the prerequisite races. Race and subtype are different categories, and racial feats are restricted to the specified races.

--snip--


Would that work on a Changeling, who is the result of a Human and a Doppelganger parents?

[Curmudgeon]

Would that work on a Changeling, who is the result of a Human and a Doppelganger parents?
From page 116 of Races of Destiny (the CHAMELEONS IN THE GAME section):
If you’re using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well.

[Rubik]

You appear to have misread the feat.

It's a racial feat, with human or doppleganger as the prerequisite races. Race and subtype are different categories, and racial feats are restricted to the specified races.

Edit: As an analogy, English is a Germanic language. If someone asked if you spoke German, and you only spoke English, you could not answer in the affirmative for speaking a non-German Germanic language. Similarly, if a feat requires Human race, you do not qualify with a non-Human race which shares the Human subtype.Anything with the [human] subtype is human. Period. And illumians have it.

[Cor1]

From page 116 of Races of Destiny (the CHAMELEONS IN THE GAME section):
--snip--

oh. Thank you. I don't have the Eberron books.



Anything with the [human] subtype is human. Period. And illumians have it.

It could be argued that then, anything with the [Elf] subtype can take classes reserved to Drow. Absurd? No more than saying that "Human" the race as in "member of humanity" means the same as [Human] subtype.

It's splitting hairs, but then, rules-lawyering is for DMs too..

[Rubik]

It could be argued that then, anything with the [Elf] subtype can take classes reserved to Drow. Absurd? No more than saying that "Human" the race as in "member of humanity" means the same as [Human] subtype.

It's splitting hairs, but then, rules-lawyering is for DMs too..Drow are a subtype of elf in the same way that illumians are a subtype of human in the same way that a square is a subtype of rectangle.

However, just because drow = elf doesn't mean elf = drow. Some elves are drow, but not all of them. Same goes with illumians and humans, and squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Likewise, all illumians are humans, but not all humans are illumians.

The text says flat-out that illumians are humans. It's not rules-lawyering, it's following the darned rules as they're stated with no attempts at stretching anything.

[Cor1]

Okay, I see your point. Frankly, you win. It's in the rules. My brain failed me.

[Rubik]

Well, just to point out where this is spelled out, Races of Destiny page 150 defines the human subtype as:

"...such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like."

[Curmudgeon]

Well, just to point out where this is spelled out, Races of Destiny page 150 defines the human subtype as:

"...such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like."
Context matters. In particular, you've removed this from before the ellipsis:
VARIANT: HALF-HUMANS AND HUMANLIKE RACES

At the DM’s discretion, halfhuman and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that It's a DM discretion variant, not part of the regular rules. In the non-variant RAW, Illumians and other humanlike races don't qualify for any prerequisite specific to the Human race.

:mad:

[Rubik]

Context matters. In particular, you've removed this from before the ellipsis: It's a DM discretion variant, not part of the regular rules. In the non-variant RAW, Illumians and other humanlike races don't qualify for any prerequisite specific to the Human race.

:mad:It's a variant rule to let half-elves and half-orcs have the [human] subtype, which is defined as I posted above.

Illumians have it RAW (it's even in their stat entry). Totally not a houserule at all.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a variant rule to let half-elves and half-orcs have the [human] subtype, which is defined as I posted above.

Illumians have it RAW (it's even in their stat entry). Totally not a houserule at all.
Illumians have the Humanoid subtype, yes. But that's not the issue. They do not qualify as the Human race (the requirement for Able Learner), any more than English speakers qualify as speaking German.

[Rubik]

Illumians have the Humanoid subtype, yes. But that's not the issue. They do not qualify as the Human race (the requirement for Able Learner), any more than English speakers qualify as speaking German.The human subtype specifically qualifies you for human-only feats, PrCs, and so on, as per the sidebar on page 150 that I quoted. The Human Heritage feat even references it for the definition of the [human] subtype.

[Randomguy]

Some bonuses that can be added to the I go first build:

+5 competence bonus from UMD'ing an eternal wand of primal instinct (share it with a partymember since you only need it once per day)
+4 from the obtain familiar feat (hummingbird).

[DrMike105]

Ok, I'll give it a shot:
Gofirsticlese!
Elf Generalist Wizard 3 / Swordsage 5 / Scout 2 / Insert Whatever Else X, wielding a +1 Warning / +1 Eager Staff

Improved Initiative: +4
Hummingbird Familiar (Dragon #323): +4
Elf Wiz. substitution level (RotW, double familiar bonus): +4
Quick to Act (Swordsage, improves at later levels): +2
Battle Fortitude (Scout): +1
Eager: +2
Warning: +5
Bands of the Iron Monkey: +2
Sandals of the Vagabond: +2

That's a +26, before you add any stats. With that Ring of Anticipation, you're going first.

[Curmudgeon]

The human subtype specifically qualifies you for human-only feats, PrCs, and so on, as per the sidebar on page 150 that I quoted.
As I already pointed out, that sidebar is entirely a variant requiring DM discretion. It has no bearing in the normal RAW.

[The-Mage-King]

As I already pointed out, that sidebar is entirely a variant requiring DM discretion. It has no bearing in the normal RAW.


...

Here's a question.

Do Wild Elves qualify for Elf only feats, items, and classes?


Yes? Then Illumians count as Humans.

No? Then no other subrace counts as the main race. Congrats, you interpret things in a way that's annoying for those who like subraces.

[Elric VIII]

Why has no one linked this ? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)

It's a little old, but in the "builds" section there is one that gets +94 initiative (+182 if you're willing to let Leadership Shenanigans slide).

[Curmudgeon]

Do Wild Elves qualify for Elf only feats, items, and classes?

Yes? Then Illumians count as Humans.

No? Then no other subrace counts as the main race.
Illumians are not a subrace of the Human race. They are a different race of the Humanoid (human) type and subtype. Azurin (Magic of Incarnum) and Silverbrow (Dragon Magic) are examples of Human subraces. They're explicitly described as Human, and affected by Human-only magic.
Relations: Illumians regard humans as a brother race, but remain somewhat distant—after all, the illumians left pure humanity behind when they undertook the Ritual of the Word Made Flesh. "Brother race" means Illumian is parallel to, rather than a variant of, Human.

[The-Mage-King]

I like how you're arguing the fluff, not the crunch. :smallamused:

If you can give me a book and page number saying that a [Racial] feat means that you don't just qualify by subtype, but need to be specifically that race, I'll accept it and let it go.

Similarly, I'll hunt for the opposite. If neither of us can find our retort, how about we agree to disagree?

[Curmudgeon]

If you can give me a book and page number saying that a [Racial] feat means that you don't just qualify by subtype, but need to be specifically that race, I'll accept it and let it go.
From the same page that we've been looking at (Races of Destiny, page 150) ─ but not in the variant sidebar:
RACIAL FEATS
Feats marked with the [Racial] tag require the character to be of a specific race in order to select the feat. That's clearly specified as race, not subtype. Player's Handbook, in the treatment of the Ranger Favored Enemy class feature, lists types and subtypes, with example races, on page 47. For instance, Humanoid (aquatic) is an example of a type and subtype, and Merfolk is an example race matching that type-subtype pair.

[The-Mage-King]

But the same page, again, says that they qualify for feats as Humans, due to having the Human Subtype. And before you call that sidebar "Variant rules", remember that it's explicitly referenced by the Human Heritage feat.






...I'm getting a feeling that this will go nowhere. Care to just agree that it's questionable in terms of legitimacy, and move on?

[Thurbane]

...I'm getting a feeling that this will go nowhere. Care to just agree that it's questionable in terms of legitimacy, and move on?
That's my reaction - the RAW is not cut and dried in this case, and it would hardly cause any balance issues to let Illumians count as a Human sub-race in the same way Azurins do.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm) gains a +2 bonus to initiative checks at level 2 (which increases to +4 at level 8, which is far too many levels for any of us to care). It doesn't get much else for those two levels, though (+INT to AC up to Duelist class level, full BAB, good Reflex save).

[candycorn]

Relevant text, context included. Variant bolded. Impact of using the variant underlined. Text stating the impact is bolded and underlined.


At the DM’s discretion, halfhuman and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that ...such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.

From this, we can assert that having the human subtype qualifies "as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like".

Example:

"We can, as company X, purchase company Y. This means that all products that company Y owns become ours."

What we can do is first. What it means comes after "This means that". Because that particular phrase is interpreted as "The impact of doing this brings the following consequences:"

Therefore, the impact of denoting a race as Humanoid, with the Human subtype brings the following consequences: "...such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like".

[Curmudgeon]

From this, we can assert that having the human subtype qualifies "as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like".
... but that conclusion only applies when VARIANT: HALF-HUMANS AND HUMANLIKE RACES is active, which exists specifically to remove limitations which make many options available in Races of Destiny off limits to nonhuman races. Absent that variant context, there is no statement which equates human subtype with Human race.

[candycorn]

... but that conclusion only applies when VARIANT: HALF-HUMANS AND HUMANLIKE RACES is active, which exists specifically to remove limitations which make many options available in Races of Destiny off limits to nonhuman races. Absent that variant context, there is no statement which equates human subtype with Human race.

Incorrect.

The variant you refer to does precisely ONE thing.


"halfhuman and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype)"

That's it.
When this variant is active, what I have posted above is the sum total of everything that changes. That's it. No mas.

The consequence of having the human subtype is then detailed:


such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.
"such races" does not refer to "humans and human-like races". It refers to "races with the human subtype", and was NOT instituted, altered, changed, or in any other way amended because that's how the rules work, on the baseline.

"Lumi has a dollar."
"You, a.k.a. Halfsie, have no dollars."
"I can give you a dollar. This means that you have enough money for coffee."

Your argument is that Lumi doesn't have enough money for coffee, unless I give you a dollar, as if the price of coffee itself is set by my charitable contribution to your billfold.

Do you see the disconnect between the cause and effect you are citing? Regardless of whether you have a dollar, anyone with a dollar can buy the coffee.
Regardless of whether Half dragons have the human subtype, anyone with the human subtype is considered human for these things.

"This means that..." is an explanation of consequence, not an establishment of new rules. It's like, "Pazuzu does not exist in this world. This means that Pun Pun cannot be made." or possibly, "All 3.0 books are barred from my game. This means that you can't use Savage Species." It's meant to explain what impact the earlier changes have on existing rules. And the changes of giving certain creatures the human subtype is that they qualify as human for... well, pretty much everything. That's the new rule (first part) interacting with the way things are (last part).

[Curmudgeon]

The variant you refer to does precisely ONE thing.
Yes, it does one thing. The RAW statements about what applies under the normal rules are at the beginning of the sidebar, and everything from "At the DM’s discretion ..." to the last paragraph is about the variant, describing the one change and how that works. The sidebar ends with the note that the Human Heritage feat provides a similar (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar?s=t) (i.e., "alike but not identical") effect to the variant.
Benefit: You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. Since this is only similar to the variant where "such races qualify as human", it can't provide the identical benefit.

[candycorn]

Yes, it does one thing. The RAW statements about what applies under the normal rules are at the beginning of the sidebar, and everything from "At the DM’s discretion ..." to the last paragraph is about the variant, describing the one change and how that works. The sidebar ends with the note that the Human Heritage feat provides a similar (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar?s=t) (i.e., "alike but not identical") effect to the variant. Since this is only similar to the variant where "such races qualify as human", it can't provide the identical benefit.

It doesn't. The feat grants 4 skill points.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: This is not a thread for discussing RAW interpretations of Illuminians. Please bring this discussion back on topic. Thank you.

[Lonely Tylenol]

On that note... How's this for a build?

Gray Elf Martial Wizard 4/Factotum 4/Swordsage 2/Abjurant Champion 1/Swiftblade 9

Point Buy (32):
STR: 6 (8-2)
DEX: 18 (16+2)
CON: 12 (14-2)
INT: 20 (18+2) - all 5 points go into this stat.
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Feats:
1) Dodge, Weapon Finesse
3) Mobility
6) Combat Casting
9) Shadow Blade
12) Improved Initiative
15) Quick Reconnoiter
18) Anything you'd like

Relevant items:
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Headband of Intellect +6
Belt of Battle
+1 (or more, ideally) Eager Warning Shortsword
Sandals of the Vagabond

Initiative benefits:
+5 Nerveskitter (from Wizard 1)
+4 Improved Initiative
+2 Quick Reconnoiter
+8 Hummingbird familiar (with Elf 3 Substitution level)
+1 Quick to Act (from Swordsage 1)
+2 Sandals of the Vagabond
+2 Belt of Battle
+6 Eager Warning Shortsword
+10 Mind over Matter (INT modifier, from Factotum 3)
+10 Arcane Reflexes (INT modifier, from Swiftblade 4)
+7 (normal Initiative bonus)

Assuming other stats, your initiative is 30 + (2 x INT) + DEX. Without items, the number is 10 smaller. You are quite easily beating even a Wizard 20 with Moment of Prescience if you have good INT (which is your casting stat, so you'd better!).

You have a BAB of +16, a caster level of 11th and access to 6th-level spells, which includes Haste as a swift action; 3rd-level martial maneuvers from your Swordsage levels (which should probably include Assassin's Stance and, say, Shadow Garrote or something to that effect); and the Perpetual Options feature, meaning you could open initiative with a full-round action and a standard action, or two standard actions and a move action, which means you could cast a spell and charge, or cast two spells, or move and get a full-attack action with sneak attack damage (+2d6, plus up to 3d6 from Cunning Strike). You add your DEX to hit and damage, as well as your INT if you want (Inspiration), so you've got a lot from your INT and DEX to make you a competent fighter as well.

NOTE: While it's not otherwise as optimized, you could switch out Quick Reconnoiter and your free feat for Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), move Shadow Blade to your 18 feat, and take two levels of Duelist instead of Swordsage, and have an extra +1 to Initiative if flaws are assumed (because you could take Quick Reconnoiter with the extra feat you get as a flaw).

[zero32483]

Thanks again for the suggestions, all. I have one question relating to the last post. Why the 1 lvl of Abjurant Champion?

[Dazaras]

If you're allowed to use Pathfinder stuff the Kensai Magus archetype gets a variety of initiative-based abilities, culminating in an ability at level 19 that makes them automatically get natural 20s on all initiative checks.

[averagejoe]

Thanks again for the suggestions, all. I have one question relating to the last post. Why the 1 lvl of Abjurant Champion?

Just a level that advances both your BAB and spellcasting, I believe. Like, I don't think there's any optimization trick here (other than, "Take levels in good classes," I suppose), it's just a level that makes you better at the things you'll be doing.

I'm not very good at optimization, but that's what it looks like to me.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

A Swiftblade 4/Tainted Sorcerer 1 with the undead type or the evil subtype. This lets you have whatever initiative score you want so long as you are willing to put the time into cranking your Taint score through the roof.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thanks again for the suggestions, all. I have one question relating to the last post. Why the 1 lvl of Abjurant Champion?


Just a level that advances both your BAB and spellcasting, I believe. Like, I don't think there's any optimization trick here (other than, "Take levels in good classes," I suppose), it's just a level that makes you better at the things you'll be doing.

I'm not very good at optimization, but that's what it looks like to me.

Pretty much this. You could do the same with Spellsword or Bladesinger, or some other equivalent +1 BAB/spellcasting at 1st class (though I don't know of many others), but they're all either more feat-intensive (such as Bladesinger) or have a worse payoff (Spellsword requires the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat per this build, and... Reduces Arcane Spell Failure?).

You have a caster level of 4 (and know 2nd-level spells) at level 10. You need to be caster level 5 (and know Haste) for at least one level before you can enter into Swiftblade (and if you're going to commit to Swiftblade, you might as well get Swiftblade 9 for Perpetual Options, at least as far as an "I go first" build is concerned). Any PrC (or just another level of Wizard) can fulfill that prerequisite, but if you don't also take one that advances BAB, then you lose your fourth iterative attack, meaning you can't win initiative and open a can of whup with weapons and spells in the doing.

P.S. If you're dealing with fractional BAB, you can drop the first level of Swordsage (so you take Swordsage 1 at 9ths) for a dip in Divine Mind with the Time domain, which advances your Fort and Will saves and gives you a static +2 bonus to Initiative checks (as well as two auras - Senses and Time - the former of which adds +2 to your Initiative, Spot and Listen, and the latter of which adds +2 to your Initiative and +1 to Reflex save). I don't recommend it, but it is a higher initiative check than the +57 that the current build spits out.