Girard's Defense: I'm really not getting it

[Winter]

I'm totally not getting Girard's Defense with the Windy Canyon and his pyramid. I pondered but did not come up with a decent solution.

Girard has a really awesome defense set up with Windy Canyon. It has illusions, counter-magic, anti-fly stuff, it is really tricky to get through (if we estimate they had much, much more spells running) and the trick is... there is no visible exit at all.
This setup is something that probably would work really well. But what I'm not getting at all is this: The pyramid is outside of the maze-area.

So what do we have? We have a pyramid that is defended from one side with a truly awesome setup but totally open to all other three directions on the compass. Err, what?

I'm really not getting it, the pyramid sits right in an open desert and that it is open is proven right now by Tarquin. He simply can fly in as soon as he knows where to go to. It's also not that the pyramid is "in the middle" of the canyon, as we clearly see miles and miles of open desert (and Tarquin can still fly in).
This seems to make the entire Windy Canyon somewhat obsolete, no? Even worse: If the Canyon lies towards the South of the pyramid, you will only hit it *before* the pyramid if you come from the south, if you happen to come from the north (walking to the Canyon) you hit the pyramid first.

It's like building a house to protect a safe with valuables but then only building the southern wall (but equipping that with the most awesome door, locks, and alarms possible).

Can anyone (including the author?) explain how this setup is supposed to work? As I'm really not getting this and right now, it diminishes my enjoyment of this arc as I think one core-component is some sort of... utterly yet unnecessarily broken to the point where (my) Suspension of Disbelief breaks down.

[RMS Oceanic]

I suspect you may be misinterpreting the art, which is admittedly a little unclear: I thought the temple was somewhere in the middle of the canyon and maze, in a relatively smooth part.

[Winter]

I also suspected it is meant this way but I think the art makes it very hard to wiggle out with the "misinterpretation":

Here, check out how large the area is:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html

And if it was in the middle, as in you have some rock formation and a very large patch of open desert in the middle, it is like a big, big red arrow pointing to "Look here" (and you can fly in).
Yes, some illusion that has worn off might have made it impossible to see the open desert part in the middle (miles across!) and prevent flying... sure.

But given how large the patch is and that it really seems like open desert, I'm still not am able to disbelief so I consider this part of the story as "Within the rules of the story, it could work". Given the art provided (in 839 and 840) I'm really not seeing it.

[Morquard]

It's also possible that the pyramid is just the Draketooth home/HQ and has nothing to do with the gate itself. The gate is tugged away safely in the canyon somewhere.

But I agree, it's most likely somewhere inside the canyon too.

[martianmister]

Whole pyramid is within Girard's illusion. Tarquin and Nale only found it thanks to OotS' coordinates coming from magic carpet.

[Winter]

Whole pyramid is within Girard's illusion. Tarquin and Nale only found it thanks to OotS' coordinates coming from magic carpet.

... and easily circumvented all the things that are there to keep them out. This is an Epic Fail on the "keep people out" part.


It's also possible that the pyramid is just the Draketooth home/HQ and has nothing to do with the gate itself. The gate is tugged away safely in the canyon somewhere.

I'm hoping for this. It seems to make sense. Unless below:

[/quote]But I agree, it's most likely somewhere inside the canyon too.[/QUOTE]

It probably is meant that way, the art just does not make it clear enough so it becomes obvious on "seeing it".

The core problem still stands, I can come up with stuff to explain the issues away, but I'm still having issues with Suspension of Disbelief here.

[RMS Oceanic]

Also, it might be that Windy Canyon is naturally a lot less Windy (wine-dee, not win-dee) than we've seen, and the illusions to mislead intruders from those other angles have naturally run out.

Basically I don't think we can make a true judgement on Girard's defences since they have been so badly comprimised and we will likely never see them at full strength.

[Winter]

Even if there were more powerful illusions, we have the problem there seems to be only a canyon to one side. This might be unclear art, though, but as of right now, I can only judge what I have seen.
The absence of more powerful illusion does not change this basic problem.

It might be things are in fact more complicated (the gate is elsewhere etc) than we think.

It actually has to be elsewhere as Soon would not be fooled by a location in the middle of nowhere (only sand around) if he knows the gate is near some very extended rock formations!

[RMS Oceanic]

Assuming that Girard was honest with Serini, the gate is unquestionably somewhere in Windy Canyon, since Xykon and Redcloak - having the coordinates from Serini's diary - said they were going to Windy Canyon after their jaunt to the Astral Plane.

As for Tarquin sailing in, it's possible Malack was a bit more mindful of the weather than Durkon was and cleared a path through the wind.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Keep in mind that Girard had no choice in where to put the gate. The gate was built around the rift, which probably didn’t have the courtesy to open in an easily defensible spot. If the rift was near, but not in the Canyon, perhaps Girard’s best bet was to simply mislead peopl into thinking it was in the Canyon.

[King of Nowhere]

I got the impression that the pyramid is inside a large valley completely enclosed in the windy canyon system, and that the only way in is by the passage tho oots took, or by flying.
So, from south you have the canyon maze, and from all other directions you have impassable mountains and rock walls.

And I don't see having a large open area in the middle of the canyon complex as suspicious. The canyon complex was there before, including the open area. It's all part of the natural formation. There would be no reason to suspect anyone would be hiding there. Strong winds barring fligth were also commonplace in the area from before girard set up his lair, so that wouldn't be too suspicious either.

[Eigenclass]

I think you may have failed some Search checks, or blown a Will save against Misdirection.

First of all, we haven't actually seen the Gate or how it is actually protected. It's a little early to speculate about the quality of Girard's defenses before we actually get to see them.

Secondly, the pyramid was invisible before V cast Greater Dispel, and there would have been no reason to suspect that this seeming patch of desert was different from any other, or that there'd be a pyramid here (in fact there's still no reason to expect a Meso-American looking pyramid in the middle of the desert; it'd have really bad thermal characteristics for dealing with sandstorms and the frigid nights).

The last major factor you're overlooking is that the pyramid is inhabited by a clan of casters.

If you've ever played an RTS or had friends in the military, static defenses aren't meant to be absolute protection. They're there to give the defenders an edge and inconvenience the attackers. You might as well say that our overseas military bases are "only" defended by barbed wire and a few gun emplacements - sure, you could get past those, or scramble up the tiny 7-foot wall of a Dark Ages castle, if you ignore the trained men with weapons shooting at you/poking you with spears/pouring boiling oil down upon you.

Chances are that if anyone got close enough to make the Draketeeth uncomfortable, they'd first be gently nudged gently away, then stunned/confused/otherwise discombobulated, and if all else fails, eat a Phantasmal Killer to the face.

[Forikroder]

I also suspected it is meant this way but I think the art makes it very hard to wiggle out with the "misinterpretation":

Here, check out how large the area is:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html

And if it was in the middle, as in you have some rock formation and a very large patch of open desert in the middle, it is like a big, big red arrow pointing to "Look here" (and you can fly in).
Yes, some illusion that has worn off might have made it impossible to see the open desert part in the middle (miles across!) and prevent flying... sure.

But given how large the patch is and that it really seems like open desert, I'm still not am able to disbelief so I consider this part of the story as "Within the rules of the story, it could work". Given the art provided (in 839 and 840) I'm really not seeing it.

yes its possible to fly in with the right magic, but thats not the only large bare spot, the windy cavern almost certainly isnt just tight corridors with one large spot

and remember Girard would probably have illusions in the air as well and with his illusions up it would be impossible to know which spot would be the right one

[Anarion]

One possibility is that Windy Canyon is much bigger than we might think. There could easily be many winding rocky areas and multiple clearings or other large openings. Known defenses are as follows
1. The canyon is filled with illusions, so it's easy to get lost or stuck and never find what you're looking for if you're on foot.
2. The wind means that without a good caster or special prep you can't fly.
3. If you can fly, the pyramid is invisible, so you might miss it
4. The pyramid is trapped
5. Casters live there.

Adding on "there are 7 other more or less identical clearings within the huge canyon system, and perhaps even illusions of more" would fit right in with that and it would be very difficult for a flyer to decide whether an open clearing was an illusion or natural terrain just from the flyover.

[Fish]

I agree with the foregoing. There is only one clearing, and one pyramid, that we know of. There may be others which the Order bypassed by virtue of Belkar's nose and three dozen stinky mummified corpses. Roy guesses it would have taken a party of mid-high-level adventurers a week to find the illusion-wall.

I disagree only on one minor point, that there is "no reason to suspect anyone lives there." Of course there is. Humanoids and animals often prefer naturally sheltered areas, especially out of the sun and weather. We don't know if there are natural springs or a river, but if Vaarsuvius is correct and Girard doesn't favor using clerics to conjure magical food and water supplies, there probably is water somewhere near. There might be an aqueduct or a river. And if it looks uninhibited, you can bet a creature passing over or near might soon get the idea to inhabit it. An empty valley with a defensible entrance? What dragon wouldn't try to settle in that?

[Forikroder]

I agree with the foregoing. There is only one clearing, and one pyramid, that we know of. There may be others which the Order bypassed by virtue of Belkar's nose and three dozen stinky mummified corpses. Roy guesses it would have taken a party of mid-high-level adventurers a week to find the illusion-wall.

I disagree only on one minor point, that there is "no reason to suspect anyone lives there." Of course there is. Humanoids and animals often prefer naturally sheltered areas, especially out of the sun and weather. We don't know if there are natural springs or a river, but if Vaarsuvius is correct and Girard doesn't favor using clerics to conjure magical food and water supplies, there probably is water somewhere near. There might be an aqueduct or a river. And if it looks uninhibited, you can bet a creature passing over or near might soon get the idea to inhabit it. An empty valley with a defensible entrance? What dragon wouldn't try to settle in that?

there might be some underground rivers the draketooths have tapped but theres unlikely to be any aboveground water and no predator would want to live there since there would be little prey and the prey that is there would be hard to get to

and i thought of a good illusion, what if Girard had an illusion over the clearing so if you look at it from the sky it looks like more windy caverns

[SavageWombat]

I think what we're seeing is, ultimately, a disagreement of tactics between Dorukan and Girard. Girard, for whatever reason, doesn't believe in static, unchanging defenses. Anything fixed can be scouted out and circumvented or prepared for. "Only a living mind," thinks Girard, "can come up with a defense against any possible attacker or situation."

So he didn't want to rely on permanent effects - he wanted to make sure that living beings were guarding the gate for the rest of time. Thus the Draketooth clan.

[NerfTW]

The pyramid is invisible. Finding it by flying in would have been impossible before. And even then, we've seen there's traps within the pyramid. It's not like you show up on top and say "GAME OVER!". Any invader would still be fighting a battle through the pyramid full of traps and illusions and a whole lot of spell casters.

However, finding the pyramid is the issue. And the family members need to be able to make their way back. The Windy Canyon isn't there to deter anyone. It's there as a land mark. As in "Upon exiting the eastern exit that is covered up by an illusion spell, head in this direction for X number of steps to reach the pyramid.". Remember that this is a desert. In the absence of a big, solid landmark, you're not finding anything.

And once again, we see that the failure to work together has caused a flaw in the defense. As a human, Girard did not think about someone tracking the pyramid by scent, which Serini would have noticed. That is a hole in the defenses that he never considered.

[phantomreader42]

... and easily circumvented all the things that are there to keep them out. This is an Epic Fail on the "keep people out" part.


But only because someone else had already gotten in...

[Forikroder]

there were porbably more defenses set up that would make it even harder to jsut fly in, and its unlikely for anyone to seriously think they would be able to find it by just flying over it

i wouldnt be surprised if some draketooths were dedicated to chain casting something like control winds to make sure there was a layer of dust obscuring the cavern

[t209]

The defense was supposed to be maintained by Draketooths, who were killed by Familicide.
I think it can be defended by paranoia (thinking it is illusioned even though it is not).

[Valyrian]

And once again, we see that the failure to work together has caused a flaw in the defense. As a human, Girard did not think about someone tracking the pyramid by scent, which Serini would have noticed. That is a hole in the defenses that he never considered.
Maybe he has considered it and scheduled an appropriate illusion, because it could have been easily covered by a spell that has worn off by now.

[Snails]

Ultimately the ziggurat can eventually be found any middling level party with time and money to burn on the pricey spell components. Control Winds and True Seeing are not difficult to employ. There are countermagics, but, no, you cannot hide a building indefinitely.

We can guess that Clan Draketooth lived there. We do not actually know where the Gate would be.

If the Draketooths were actually alive right now, we would probably see OotS and LG wander around lost for days, and then both would "accidentally" blunder into Team Evil simultaneously. After the bloodbath, Clan Draketooth would arrive en mass and pick off whoever survives.

Then would we be doubting the quality of the defenses?

[lio45]

But what I'm not getting at all is this: The pyramid is outside of the maze-area.

So what do we have? We have a pyramid that is defended from one side with a truly awesome setup but totally open to all other three directions on the compass. Err, what?

I'm really not getting it, the pyramid sits right in an open desert and that it is open is proven right now by Tarquin (...)

Shhalahr Windrider has got the explanation right: the pyramid stands there because it's where the gate is, which is where the rift happened to appear. Girard had absolutely no say in choosing the location.



Take a look at the panel where Girard seals his rift. It does seem to be in an open area (the background hills are at a distance)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Is your faith in Rich's storytelling skills restored now? :P (IDK for you, but I find that explanation fully satisfying, myself.)

[t209]

Maybe the gate is located at the position when Girard moons at some location.
Or the butt is a little door that leads to Rift room?
or The rift is in another location but the ass bone acted as a key.

[Jay R]

... and easily circumvented all the things that are there to keep them out. This is an Epic Fail on the "keep people out" part.


Well, yes, I suppose you can call having all the defenders murdered instantly by an epic spell and most of the rest of the defenses slowly running out and not being renewed an "Epic Fail", if you like.

What you cannot logically do is make any conclusion on what the defenses were if they included all the high-level illusions and a pyramid full of arcane casters, based on its current state.

Without any of the missing defenses the pyramid was hard to find, and they only found it by the smell of dozens of mummified corpses. Add a bunch of olfactory illusions, and they couldn't have found it at all.

Finally, "keep people out" isn't the actual goal. The actual goal is "protect the gate". And it's worth noticing that they haven't found the gate, and the meager defenses left have in fact taken out the most powerful member of the invading party.

[JavaScribe]

Well, yes, I suppose you can call having all the defenders murdered instantly by an epic spell and most of the rest of the defenses slowly running out and not being renewed an "Epic Fail", if you like.

What you cannot logically do is make any conclusion on what the defenses were if they included all the high-level illusions and a pyramid full of arcane casters, based on its current state.

Without any of the missing defenses the pyramid was hard to find, and they only found it by the smell of dozens of mummified corpses. Add a bunch of olfactory illusions, and they couldn't have found it at all.

Finally, "keep people out" isn't the actual goal. The actual goal is "protect the gate". And it's worth noticing that they haven't found the gate, and the meager defenses left have in fact taken out the most powerful member of the invading party.
The Draketooths can hardly be blamed for not expecting an overpowered epic spell to slay them all and we do not yet know the strength of the inner defenses, but all of the outer defenses at least, were less than epic. Even when those defenses were at full strength, the Linear Guild was already getting dangerously close to locating Orrin. They likely would have succeeded in locating the pyramid had Penelope not gotten familicided.

[Forikroder]

The Draketooths can hardly be blamed for not expecting an overpowered epic spell to slay them all and we do not yet know the strength of the inner defenses, but all of the outer defenses at least, were less than epic. Even when those defenses were at full strength, the Linear Guild was already getting dangerously close to locating Orrin. They likely would have succeeded in locating the pyramid had Penelope not gotten familicided.

not likely, they only managed to figure out it was the windy cavern through process of elimination most likely the entire Cavern was scry shielded

they probably would ahve been able to narrow it down further as the defenses started timing out but while the draketooths were alive there was really no way to tell where the gate was in the cavern

[Jay R]

Even when those defenses were at full strength, the Linear Guild was already getting dangerously close to locating Orrin.

More accurately, Nale thought they were getting close figuring out where to go to begin trying to attack those defense. The defenses, apart from being hidden, had not yet been touched, since he wasn't in Windy Canyon attempting to get through them.

[Stormlock]

I'd like to note that aside from what's been mentioned so far, the whole kidnapping thing is also a horrible horrible flaw in their plan. There's a bajillion ways to scry on specific people, and I'm pretty sure the mother will know her child's name. Not to mention incentive to send adventurers snooping around to do a good deed by finding and bring to justice these kidnappers hiding out in the desert. Even if the OotS wasn't looking for the gate, Tarquin might have let them know about Windy Canyon anyways just in relation to the mysterious death of his wife.

This is akin to establishing a secret society to safeguard a secret treasure but also doing bank robberies on the side. The gate would practically have been safer simply left unguarded save for some permanent illusions. Even if the gate isn't in the pyramid or nearby (and that seems unlikely) you're still leading random people to come looking for the people actively guarding it, who presumably check up on it rather frequently to cast spells and stuff. If someone came around looking for the missing people and simply observed for a while instead of revealing themselves, they might very well stumble on the gate without even knowing about it, which is pretty much the opposite of protecting it.

[Jay R]

I'd like to note that aside from what's been mentioned so far, the whole kidnapping thing is also a horrible horrible flaw in their plan....

In a world in which paladins are led by faking senility and lying, Nale's plans are over-complicated to failure, bandits allow their prisoners to compete for leadership of the bandits, a goblin leader spends thirty years lying to the most powerful lich on the planet, a mystic theurge uses wights to attack a high-level evil cleric, and a succession of rulers keep using the advisers that got the last ruler killed, I am shocked, shocked, to learn that somebody is using a plan with a horrible flaw in it.

[Lecan]

Shhalahr Windrider has got the explanation right: the pyramid stands there because it's where the gate is, which is where the rift happened to appear. Girard had absolutely no say in choosing the location.


Take a look at the panel where Girard seals his rift. It does seem to be in an open area (the background hills are at a distance)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Is your faith in Rich's storytelling skills restored now? :P (IDK for you, but I find that explanation fully satisfying, myself.)

Yet the Redmountain rift is shown to be out of doors in 2 panels in 276 but in-comic events show it as beneath a mountain. The Crayons of Time are at least a little wrong and cannot be proof of actual specific rift locations.

[Gilphon]

Remember, the only reasons anyone was able to narrow down the Gate's location to the Windy Canyon was by painstakingly eliminating every other part of the desert.

And without the scent the bodies were giving off, it likely would've taken the Order days to find the ziggurat, even without the defences that wore off. Days in which the Draketooths could've easily assembled some kind of counterattack.

[Fish]

That could be artistic license; the alternative was to show Dorukan's Gate in front of a blank wall underground. Or Dorukan put the mountain there.

[Thalnawr]

That could be artistic license; the alternative was to show Dorukan's Gate in front of a blank wall underground. Or Dorukan put the mountain there.
Creating a mountain is certainly within the power of an epic wizard who did not ban transmutation (or maybe conjuration to permanently summon a mountain from elsewhere).

[phantomreader42]

Creating a mountain is certainly within the power of an epic wizard who did not ban transmutation (or maybe conjuration to permanently summon a mountain from elsewhere).

And we know he did at least a little summoning. Mostly of the Conjuration(Booty Calling) subschool. :smalltongue:

[Capt Spanner]

That could be artistic license; the alternative was to show Dorukan's Gate in front of a blank wall underground. Or Dorukan put the mountain there.

Or maybe that's because the teller of the story assumes the map is correct. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html)

[Emanick]

Or maybe that's because the teller of the story assumes the map is correct. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html)

I doubt it. I think the shots of the Gates are actual flashes from the past, and the only thing Shojo is actually relating to the Order is the text that appears next to his head. Otherwise, we'd have to conclude that Shojo was relating (or recalling, despite being twice removed from the oft-unimportant scenes being depicted) snippets of random, unimportant dialogue between Scribble members, which doesn't seem likely at all.

[Winter Light]

In a world in which paladins are led by faking senility and lying, Nale's plans are over-complicated to failure, bandits allow their prisoners to compete for leadership of the bandits, a goblin leader spends thirty years lying to the most powerful lich on the planet, a mystic theurge uses wights to attack a high-level evil cleric, and a succession of rulers keep using the advisers that got the last ruler killed, I am shocked, shocked, to learn that somebody is using a plan with a horrible flaw in it.

To be fair, Shojo wasn't a paladin, just the leader of the order of paladins.

Other than that: Awesome. I laughed. :x

[kickassfrog]

If soon was at girards rift when they sealed it, why would girard expect him to turn up in a completely different area of the desert looking for the rift?

[Jay R]

To be fair, Shojo wasn't a paladin, just the leader of the order of paladins.

Of course. That's why I said "... paladins are led by..." rather than "... a paladin leads by..."


Other than that: Awesome. I laughed. :x

Thanks. Then my work here is done.

[Forikroder]

If soon was at girards rift when they sealed it, why would girard expect him to turn up in a completely different area of the desert looking for the rift?

because paladins are that dumb

[Manga Shoggoth]

If soon was at girards rift when they sealed it, why would girard expect him to turn up in a completely different area of the desert looking for the rift?
because paladins are that dumb

Or perhaps cartography is not one of Soon's skills, which is why Girard did the mapping and gave Soon the (wrong) co-ordinates when asked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html).

[Particle_Man]

Girard's gate has not been found yet. I will adopt a wait-and-see approach on how well it is hidden until it is found. So far he is "winning" against three of the other gates, if it is a contest. :smallbiggrin:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

If soon was at girards rift when they sealed it, why would girard expect him to turn up in a completely different area of the desert looking for the rift?
Because so much of the desert looks just like the rest of it.

[Herald Alberich]

Because so much of the desert looks just like the rest of it.

But Windy Canyon looks not at all like the false gate location, which is curious. When Girard revealed that he send Soon to "a completely random spot in the middle of the world's largest desert," I was expecting the gate to be in another random spot in the middle of the world's largest desert, not a distinctive (and named!) stone formation at most two days' flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) from civilization.

Edit: On second thought, two days' flight without stopping could probably cover most of the continent, so nevermind that part. Point stands.

If Soon had been of the oath-breaking sort, he would have realized something was up long before he actually located the booby trap, merely from the absence of any canyons for miles and miles around the coordinates he was given. You don't need cartography skills to make Spot checks.

[SaintRidley]

If Soon had been of the oath-breaking sort, he would have realized something was up long before he actually located the booby trap, merely from the absence of any canyons for miles and miles around the coordinates he was given. You don't need cartography skills to make Spot checks.

Illusionist. Why would Soon trust Girard to keep the canyon looking like it did back in the day?

[Winter]

Illusionist. Why would Soon trust Girard to keep the canyon looking like it did back in the day?

I doubt Soon would think Girard could cloak 100 square miles of desert. Even if he could, Soon would be tipped off.

The "false location is in the nowhere" and "the gate (?) or at least Girard is in a very distinctive location" is what bothers me as well here.
If Soon did not know where the gate was but that he had to look for stone formations roughly "two weeks into the desert from place X" he'd have much more clue than Girard wanted to give him (up to the point where "misleading Soon" becomes quite pointless).
The misdirection of Soon only works if there are no distinct stone formations near the "real" target.

[Cavenskull]

The misdirection could also work if Soon didn't really know where they were. If the party teleported to the rift instead of traveling there the normal way, Soon would have no point of reference for figuring out where the rift is relative to anything else. In such a case, even if it became painfully obvious that the coordinates were false, he'd have no choice but to go to the location indicated just in case there was something there of significance that would help him find the gate or put him in contact with Girard's clan.

[Winter]

Good point. We should hold on to that.

Yet I doubt it's what has happend. If you teleport "there", you do not need a party-tracker anymore to make a map and note the location. You (at least the mage) already know where it is or know it to be distinctive enough to teleport to that location.

The fact they needed a map and a party tracker strongly indicates to me they walked (ridden, have flown, ...) there.

[Cavenskull]

Good point. We should hold on to that.

Yet I doubt it's what has happend. If you teleport "there", you do not need a party-tracker anymore to make a map and note the location. You (at least the mage) already know where it is or know it to be distinctive enough to teleport to that location.

The fact they needed a map and a party tracker strongly indicates to me they walked (ridden, have flown, ...) there.
But what happens when the mage dies? Nobody in Azure City at the time of the goblin attack had ever been to any of the other gates, other than the Order of the Stick. The map and coordinates would still be useful for later generations of gate defenders. Of course, using teleport to get to the rift really only works if at least one person in the party already knew where the rift was.

If they did have to search for the rift as a party, then that's the answer right there. They probably did not go to a specific town and then head directly toward the gate. If they spent enough time searching a mainly featureless desert, it would be really easy for Soon to lose track of where they are--even more so if they teleported out after sealing the gate instead of traveling to the nearest unstable dictatorship of the week.

[Winter]

The map and coordinates would still be useful for later generations of gate defenders.

All evidence we saw so far indicates the Scribblers did not plan that far.


Of course, using teleport to get to the rift really only works if at least one person in the party already knew where the rift was.

Actually, it's enough to know what the location is and how it looks. Teleport has no requirements for knowing "where" the location exactly is.

As I said, I think you have a good point. But I doubt it's what happened.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

All evidence we saw so far indicates the Scribblers did not plan that far.

That’s funny. We have seen two gates being defended by new generations as it is. Hinjo was three generations removed from Soon (Soon->Shojo’s father->Shojo->Hinjo). And Girard’s family tree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) implies that Girard has grandchildren working on defense of his gate, giving a second generation from him.

Furthermore in SoD
Lirian had a full army of woodland creatures, magical beasts, treants, fey, and even other elves defending the gate. There would certainly be someone around to take up the lead in defending the gate should something happen to Lirian.

Considering that we don’t know enough about Serini’s plans for long-term defense, we cannot assume anything about future generations.

In the end, the only gate we have seen so far that has not been set up to allow for multiple generations of defense is Dorukan’s.


Actually, it's enough to know what the location is and how it looks. Teleport has no requirements for knowing "where" the location exactly is.

And considering that Dorukan was epic, he may have had a version that did away with even that requirement.

[Winter]

Good point with the stuff above on the heritage-defenses.


And considering that Dorukan was epic, he may have had a version that did away with even that requirement.

Actually, the standard Greater Teleport is already that. It works with a good description of the target area (and even if it's wrong or not enough you do not get a mishap).

An Epic Version might just require "think roughly of the place you want to be".

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Actually, the standard Greater Teleport is already that. It works with a good description of the target area (and even if it's wrong or not enough you do not get a mishap).

An Epic Version might just require "think roughly of the place you want to be".
Exactly my point. I am assuming that the Scribbles would likely have had trouble coming up with the description required for greater teleport. All depends on how they managed to find the various rifts, I guess.

[snikrept]

I suppose it could be the art choice, but those scenes of the open space the ziggurat stands in show the background mesas *moving around*. There is some serious high-level illusion or space-warping effect going on still, I suspect. Perhaps to force interlopers into arriving through the twistiest part of the canyon without realizing.

[Querzis]

Durokan gate was in his throne room. Real easy to find.

Lirian gate was not protected from being found by anyone.

Soon gate they found easely with just a single scrying.

Girard gate they did not find yet (hell, they didnt even find the maze) despite all of the defenders being killed by familicide (which is also the only reason they even found that pyramid by the way) and even though most of the defense are already down and they were using true seeing the whole time. I'm willing to cut Girard some slack on that part.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Soon gate they found easely with just a single scrying.

That single scrying happened to reveal the precise location of Soon’s gate purely by happenstance. Had Hinjo not been telling Roy about the gate at the exact moment Miko was being carried out of the throne room, Xykon would never have found the gate so easily.

[ferrodoxin]

So what do we have? We have a pyramid that is defended from one side with a truly awesome setup but totally open to all other three directions on the compass. Err, what?
No... definitely not

The Pyramid is within the canyon, you are misinterpreting the art

This is what an open desert background looks like
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html

The comic you show as "proof" that the pyramid is out of the canyon clearly shows sharp rock formations in the background
Sand heaps don't form into that (naturally), those are wind-eroded rocks

Plus, as mentioned we haven't actually seen anything about the gate's defenses.
Seeing as how paranoid Girard is, most Draketooths might not even know where the gate is, except for a few and the rest of them may just be hanging out in the pyramid and protecting the canyon from intruders.