Minotaur Characters (3.5)

[Noedig]

So my older brother wants to play a big hulking bruiser of a tank in my uncle's Undermountain campaign. He had a few requirements when we sat down to hash it out:
1. It must be Large, and have a natural reach of 10'.
2. High bonuses to stats like STR and CON, and preferably only moderate negs to mental stats.
3. He wanted to be able to dish out tremendous punishment, and be able to take it in return.

We started looking through the MM's and found the Minotaur. 6 Monstrous Humanoid HD, +2 LA, Large, Good Bonuses, and built to last. He wasn't a fan of the -4 Int, but such is the cost. It looks really good on paper, but I wanted to ask for some sage Playground advice.

Are there any draw back to the Minotaur I'm missing? I'd really prefer not to settle my brother with a gimp character.

[Gwendol]

I suggest going Half-Ogre instead.

[Zaq]

So my older brother wants to play a big hulking bruiser of a tank in my uncle's Undermountain campaign. He had a few requirements when we sat down to hash it out:
1. It must be Large, and have a natural reach of 10'.
2. High bonuses to stats like STR and CON, and preferably only moderate negs to mental stats.
3. He wanted to be able to dish out tremendous punishment, and be able to take it in return.

We started looking through the MM's and found the Minotaur. 6 Monstrous Humanoid HD, +2 LA, Large, Good Bonuses, and built to last. He wasn't a fan of the -4 Int, but such is the cost. It looks really good on paper, but I wanted to ask for some sage Playground advice.

Are there any draw back to the Minotaur I'm missing? I'd really prefer not to settle my brother with a gimp character.

You're missing the fact that 6 racial HD and +2 LA do not a good character make. That's eight levels where you basically don't get much of anything. Even eight levels of Fighter would probably end up better.

Now, you're going to have to suck up some LA/RHD if you insist on being Large and having reach, but there's no way that playing an ECL 8 character with so little fun stuff is the best way to do it.

Incidentally, does he need to be capital-L Large? We can get increased (weaponless, even) reach and Powerful Build pretty easily. Hell, a goliath with two feats (Willing Deformity and Deformity (Tall)—or Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach, if you can get the GM to waive the "humanoid" requirement) has Powerful Build and 10' reach before weapons, but they also fit in a dungeon and (more importantly) have only 1 LA. No penalties to mental stats, either.

If he's just absolutely stuck on the minotaur, well, at least RHD count for half IL, so you'd make an acceptable Warblade, though you'd be better off just going straight Warblade.

[Noedig]

I guess I don't understand the drawbacks of ECL 8 character. Hes coming into the game at level 10 to keep up with the rest of us so I didn't think it would be a problem.

[Namfuak]

Why not just use the half-minotaur template? They get nice bonuses, no RHD and only LA+1. If you are starting at 10th level, use the LA reduction rules and he can start at 10 with no LA.

[Noedig]

Half minotaur has interesting implications. I'll run it by him and the DM. I would still like some enlightenment on high ECL characters being bad. I want to avoid potential snags in the future.

[Gwendol]

In short: racial HD don't give as much as do class levels. Try a duel between an 8-th level barbarian and minotaur and you'll understand why.

[Zaq]

I guess I don't understand the drawbacks of ECL 8 character. Hes coming into the game at level 10 to keep up with the rest of us so I didn't think it would be a problem.

Because that ECL 8 is weaker than just about anything you could get with 8 levels in pretty much any PC class. You'd have to be intentionally gimping yourself to end up with something worse, just by taking 8 PC class levels. Let's break down exactly what you're spending 8 levels on:

Large. This is what you're paying the most for, and if you want it 24/7, it is admittedly the hardest to replicate with class levels . . . but you can probably get it for fewer RHD.
+8 STR, +4 CON, –4 INT, –2 CHA. So, basic bruiser stuff. That penalty to INT will make it really hard to qualify for Combat Expertise (and thus Improved Trip, one of the big reasons to WANT reach), but at least the STR is bruisery. Still, a full-blood orc (or better, water orc) comes close, especially if they're a Barbarian. The 4 CON kind of offsets the HP you'll lose from being down 2 HD, but probably not entirely.
Reach. As I said, we can buy this for two feats, or for just one feat if you weren't going to use a spiked chain anyway.
Natural Cunning. The immunity to Maze will pretty much never come up. The immunity to being flat-footed is cute, but Uncanny Dodge is almost as good, and we can get that with one level (or two levels in a full BAB class), or a feat.
BAB +6. This is the same as what a class with Rogue BAB would have after 8 levels, and two points behind what a class with Fighter BAB would have.
Goring Charge. This isn't written very clearly (does it let you choose to do this instead of a normal charge, or as part of a normal charge that also includes an attack?). If it lets you make a normal charge attack as well, this is decent, but you'll be better off getting Pounce through Barbarian or Totemist levels. If it's instead of the normal attack, this is really weak for 8 levels . . . a Dungeoncrasher Fighter will do 8d6 + thrice your STR with little effort. A Rogue with Craven will do 4d6 + 8 + weapon + STR + misc. on every sneak attack (and you can get at least two of those per round if you're good, but even with just one per round, that beats this). Even just using Leap Attack and PAing for a mere two points with a greatsword will get you 2d6 + 1.5 x STR + 6 + magic, and that's basically at the cost of a feat (plus PA, which you were gonna take anyway).
Scent. I admit, Scent is decent, but there are other ways to get it.


I'm going to call the skills and saves a wash, since you'll get those through class levels anyway. You're basically getting a slightly better Uncanny Dodge, some stat bumps, an uninspiring charge attack, and Large size. You don't have the INT to get the Improved Trip tree, negating one of the best reasons to be Large with increased reach. You have less HP than a Fighter of the same ECL. Your saves are below par thanks to the lack of two HD, and your skill ranks have a lower cap (which might affect your ability to qualify for some things, though it might not).

Now, I understand that you're going for a concept here, and that's OK. I'm not telling you to go for a Shock Trooper who can pulp at least one enemy a turn or anything like that. You don't have to play the most optimized option every time. But you asked for input, and my input is that this is fiercely unoptimized.

[Namfuak]

Half minotaur has interesting implications. I'll run it by him and the DM. I would still like some enlightenment on high ECL characters being bad. I want to avoid potential snags in the future.

Well, look at the minotaur. He gets automatic large size and nice bonuses to strength and constitution as well as some ex abilites for LA +2. That's probably worth it. However, he also starts with 6 levels of Monstrous humanoid, which gives him:



A monstrous humanoid has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Reflex and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Also darkvision and weapon proficiencies, but that comes with the first level of monstrous humanoid and even if you used a reduction method you would still include them, so they are more like part of the LA anyway.

Now, since those 6 levels of monstrous humanoid add 6 to ECL, by ECL 10 he has (if he goes fighter):

2 LA + 6 RHD + 2 Fighter HD = ECL 10

Each RHD is a d8, plus 2 d10s from fighter = ~37 HP
BAB = 8 (6 from RHD, plus 2 from fighter)
Base saves: Reflex=5, Fort= 5, Will=5
Skills = (2+Int mod)*4+(2+Int mod)*7
Feats = 3 from HD (1st, 3rd, 6th), 2 from fighter levels
Compare that to another character with LA+2, but no RHD and only levels in fighter:

2 LA + 8 Fighter HD= ECL 10
8 d10 = ~40 HP
BAB = 8
Base saves: Reflex = 2, Fort = 6, Will = 2
Skills = (2+ Int mod)*4 + (2+Int mod)*7
Feats = 3 from HD (see above), 4 from fighter levels.

As you can see, at the cost his reflex and will save, the 8th level fighter will have more HP and more feats than the 6 RHD minotaur. I intentionally chose him to be a fighter because fighters have simple class features - if he was a barbarian instead, he is getting the class features that an 8th level barbarian will get at ECL 16 instead, for the benefit of slightly better saves. And don't even get me started on casters or any class that requires high skill points (like rogues) - those 6 levels of 2+int mod, plus not getting the x4 on a higher base skill point modifier, completely blocks out skill monkeys, and 1st level casting at ECL 10 is, to put it bluntly, useless (queue a parade of posts about how you can make a 2nd level caster relevant at ECL 10).

You should read Ur-Priest's Monstrous Monster Handbook.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

[Larkas]

The only RHD that are worth having are Dragon and maybe Outsider, and they are simply things you live with, not actively seek to have. Take a look at creature types (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monsterTypes.html) if you want to understand this better.

You really should read Urpriest's handbook. Complementing what Namfuak said, you also missed on an ability score increase. Not critical, but not nice either way.

[SimonMoon6]

Let's break down exactly what you're spending 8 levels on:

[list] Large. This is what you're paying the most for, and if you want it 24/7, it is admittedly the hardest to replicate with class levels . . . but you can probably get it for fewer RHD.
+8 STR, +4 CON, –4 INT, –2 CHA. So, basic bruiser stuff. That penalty to INT will make it really hard to qualify for Combat Expertise (and thus Improved Trip, one of the big reasons to WANT reach), but at least the STR is bruisery. Still, a full-blood orc (or better, water orc) comes close, especially if they're a Barbarian. The 4 CON kind of offsets the HP you'll lose from being down 2 HD, but probably not entirely.
BAB +6. This is the same as what a class with Rogue BAB would have after 8 levels, and two points behind what a class with Fighter BAB would have..

I'd put it this way:

The minotaur with 6 HD and +2 LA uses the following "to hit" for his attacks:

+6/+1 BAB + 4 (str mod) + ? (more str mod based on points put into it) -1 (large size) = +9/+4 (+ more for a higher str)

A half-orc can start with a +2 str. A level 8 half-orc fighter (which is a bland and uninteresting character) would have:

+8/+3 BAB + 1 (str) +? (more str mod based on points put into it) = +9/+4 (+ more for a higher str)

So, both characters are equally good at hitting people.

So, the main advantages of the minotaur will be (a) reach (which can be duplicated with weapons/feats, which the fighter can have tons of) and (b) extra damage. But the fighter will have way more feats and options. And he'd probably already be in some really cool prestige class with neato powers.

[Slipperychicken]

I guess I don't understand the drawbacks of ECL 8 character. Hes coming into the game at level 10 to keep up with the rest of us so I didn't think it would be a problem.

Racial Hit Dice (RHD) = Dead Levels (No class features).

Level Adjustment (LA) = Totally dead Levels (no BAB, no saves, fewer hit points, no skills, no class features, nothing). Worse than Commoner levels in many regards.



Be extremely wary LA and RHD. When you see them, consider carefully what you could gain from (LA + RHD) class levels, and compare it to the benefit of the race or template you have chosen. Wasting one's levels on LA or RHD while salivating over ability score boosts is a mistake often made by newer players. Your brother would be better-served by levels in Barbarian or Crusader, depending on the group's power level.

[Skaven]

Ignore the LA+2, LA is a poorly thought out concept form back when the designers did not understand the ins and outs of their own system.

Just give him the 6RHD+4 fighter levels or whatever and allow him to convert them to class levels every other level or so, so he keeps up.

[Noedig]

My brother got his hands on Fiend Folio and decide he wanted to play a Maug. He rolled up stats and bought gear with my DM earlier today and they hashed it all out. My DM's got 20 plus years of experience, so I think my brother is pretty well set.

[Comica]

Y'know, my suggestion to improve any Monster with RHD is to use Savage Species and Gestalt Characters. Doing this, you can have every good thing about being, say, a Barbarian, while still being a Minotaur. Plus, add in the Feral template (+1 LA for so many good things), one level of Fighter, and then all 10 levels of War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook. Plus, remember you're still beside the Barbarian, who is progressing as normal. Totem that for whatever you need, and you're golden.

Plus, for some extra cheese, since you begin as medium before advancing to large size using this method, you can probably get a veritable shot of steroids. See, monsters that gain size with HD (which technically is happening) would get something like +8 STR, and a whole bunch of other bonuses. This is kinda stretching the rules a bit, but that never stopped munchkin-style powergaming before. (Also, War Hulk is a beautiful basket of nonsense. +2 STR every level on a 10 level PrC, mitigated by no BAB progression, which is completely alleviated by being gestalted next to Barbarian.

Naturally, like all good things, you have GOT to ask your DM if they'll allow it. Gestalt is very, very powerful, and not something only one person can do (unless the rest of the party are all optimized CoDzillas.) That's my two cents, at least.

[Sian]

Maug is actually rather competent if you pair it up with the Incarnate Construct Template from Savage Species.

[ComaVision]

My DM's got 20 plus years of experience, so I think my brother is pretty well set.

I think some of the worst optimizers I've seen have been DMs with decades of experience. In my experience, they tend to be the first to cry "Munchkin!"

[Gildedragon]

You could use a krynn minotaur with a half ogre or half minotaur template slapped on for a total

Half minotaur Minotaur
+8 str -2 Dex +2 con -4 int -2 cha
Size: Large
0 RHD
+1 LA
Some other abilities

Toss Arctic on top of it all to get:
+8 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 in order for stats

[Sian]

The skills needed for being a good DM (or liking to DM) is not at all the same as those needed to be a good Optimizer.

A DM need good creative senses, and a reasonable understanding of Balancing encounters up against player competence.

A good optimizer need to have a strong understanding of what is available and a strong qualitative understanding of how to get most out of the thing they're trying to optimize.

[Necroticplague]

We started looking through the MM's and found the Minotaur. 6 Monstrous Humanoid HD, +2 LA, Large, Good Bonuses, and built to last. He wasn't a fan of the -4 Int, but such is the cost. It looks really good on paper, but I wanted to ask for some sage Playground advice.

Are there any draw back to the Minotaur I'm missing? I'd really prefer not to settle my brother with a gimp character.

No, but you are drastically understating the ones there is. ECL 8 is a massive drawback. Slapping half-minotaur on a human is better in pretty much every conceivable way.

[Willie the Duck]

Guys, this is a 4 year old necro.

[Gildedragon]

Crystal mighty. It is