Illumian LA?

[Dairuga]

So , a quick question. My brother wishes to make a character, and an Illumian at that. So, he peruses trough the book, and he says that the illumians have no Level adjustment attached to them; that the book does not mention this under "creating an illumian character" section.

Now, the character creator that he is using says that the illumian has an LA +1. So, did he miss something? Or have they been updated?

[Empedocles]

So , a quick question. My brother wishes to make a character, and an Illumian at that. So, he peruses trough the book, and he says that the illumians have no Level adjustment attached to them; that the book does not mention this under "creating an illumian character" section.

Now, the character creator that he is using says that the illumian has an LA +1. So, did he miss something? Or have they been updated?

Illumians don't have any LA.

[shadow_archmagi]

Illumians don't have any LA.

Yeah, they don't get anything nearly powerful enough to warrant LA.

[deuxhero]

Neither do half the LA+1 races, but that's not the point.

[shadow_archmagi]

Neither do half the LA+1 races, but that's not the point.

What are you talking about? A merfolk's +8 to Swim checks is clearly an ability of equal value to a character level.

[Empedocles]

What are you talking about? A merfolk's +8 to Swim checks is clearly an ability of equal value to a character level.

I'd much rather be able to swim than be a d12 half-orc barbarian with 20 strength that can go up to 22 with a single rage and a greatsword and power attack that can do upwards of 2d6+8 points of damage when goblins have 5 hp.

LA is obviously balanced!

[RaggedAngel]

What are you talking about? A merfolk's +8 to Swim checks is clearly an ability of equal value to a character level.
Just like how a Hobgoblin's +2 to Dex and Con are totally worth an entire level, but the human's Bonus Feat and extra 23 skill points obviously aren't.

So yeah, the Illumian has no LA, nor should they. They're a very well-designed race.

[Empedocles]

Just like how a Hobgoblin's +2 to Dex and Con are totally worth an entire level, but the human's Bonus Feat and extra 23 skill points obviously aren't.

So yeah, the Illumian has no LA, nor should they. They're a very well-designed race.

Agreed :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

My favourite "LA +1? What the?" race is the Snow Goblin from Frostburn. A net -2 to ability scores (+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha), climb speed 20, Darkvision and +4 to Intimidate and Move Silently is not worth LA+1 (especially when you consider the +4 to Intimidate is effectively negated by their small size).

[sonofzeal]

So yeah, the Illumian has no LA, nor should they.
Agreed.


They're a very well-designed race.
Firmly disagreed. The whole thing about combining sigils is unnecessarily complicated, and they open up some early entry tricks that obviously weren't intended. Mechanical complexity with no real payoff aside from unintended exploits is pretty much the epitome of bad design.

They're still playable of course, and generally well-balanced with LA+0. And the early entry tricks they open up are sometimes necessary to make certain combinations viable. But I don't think that earns the title of "well-designed".

[shadow_archmagi]

My favourite "LA +1? What the?" race is the Snow Goblin from Frostburn. A net -2 to ability scores (+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha), climb speed 20, Darkvision and +4 to Intimidate and Move Silently is not worth LA+1 (especially when you consider the +4 to Intimidate is effectively negated by their small size).

I don't know, at least they'd be good for...

Well, not rogues, because CHA and INT penalties.

Rangers? No, because small size hurts that even more.

Uhhh...

[Dusk Eclipse]

For the record the first draft of Illuminians (viewable through using the wayback machine and checking the preview fir RoD) were LA +1 and actually op.

[Zaq]

Agreed.


Firmly disagreed. The whole thing about combining sigils is unnecessarily complicated, and they open up some early entry tricks that obviously weren't intended. Mechanical complexity with no real payoff aside from unintended exploits is pretty much the epitome of bad design.

They're still playable of course, and generally well-balanced with LA+0. And the early entry tricks they open up are sometimes necessary to make certain combinations viable. But I don't think that earns the title of "well-designed".

I dunno. When I'm an illumian, I find that my racial abilities matter pretty much every single day. Regardless of how I fluff the character, I find myself constantly reminded that I am, in fact, an illumian, in ways that very much don't happen when I play a human or a dwarf. That, and the fact that my illumian is noticeably mechanically different from your illumian just tickles me. They're flexible, they're great for a lot of wildly divergent concepts, and it's really not that complex. Your point about the early entry tricks is acknowledged and valid (Naenhoon is poorly designed, I grant, as is Improved Sigil (Krau)), but not to the extent that I'd let it mar the whole race.

[Chronos]

Another thing I like about Illumians is that they're mechanically the best race for a Truenamer (well, OK, still not very good at it, but better than anyone else), which fits perfectly with them being a race of living language. I'm still not sure if that was deliberate or just a lucky quirk.

[ericgrau]

What are you talking about? A merfolk's +8 to Swim checks is clearly an ability of equal value to a character level.
That might be more related to the +2 str, +2 con,-2 wis, -2 cha and unmatched swim speed among low LA options. And that you don't lose an entire character level: you keep the level's treasure but not the class level. So mainly you need to compensate for that -1 to everything and some HP, plus half a feat or 1/4 a special ability or whatever. Though I could see the argument for LA buyoff at high levels when a 60' swim speed plus water breathing is attainable via magic; even though 2 +2's is a bit high for LA 0 they don't get much else.

But a lot of LA 1/2 races like hobgoblins did get rounded up much to the annoyance of players. An extra +2 to a major ability score wouldn't hurt them.

While complicated IMO illumians are fine for the right build. Which is fine IMO, it would be bad if a race were best at everything.

[deuxhero]

it would be bad if a race were best at everything.


Hmm........ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#humans)

[shadow_archmagi]

That might be more related to the +2 str, +2 con,-2 wis, -2 cha and unmatched swim speed among low LA options.

They don't get any of that

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/merfolk.htm

[Rubik]

They don't get any of that

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/merfolk.htmI rebut it with:


The merfolk warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Now look at the monster entry and compare.

[Red_Dog]

Hmm........ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#humans)

Human Power! *emulating various nationalistic sayings, and OBVIOUSLY jesting = P*

Jokes aside, isn't the topic derailed about 3 miles back by now?O_o

Aside from humans, there are strongheart halflings and azurins that somewhat are good at everything ^^.

Also ON topic -> Illumian are fantastic for gishing with Dex or Str. With dex unfortunately, you will probably need to burn a feat to suppress your forehead lightbulb as to not give away your position ^^.

But yeah, I am with crowd of=> "LA is 75% unjustified simply due to humans/other bonus feat recipients trump almost everyone in almost any build". Ergo, if I was writing Savage species, all monster "classes" would just have Monster HD and no LA and inability to "jump off" the track until they are done. Monster's HD would have "class features" of the monster's abilities. I never understood why is this concept so foreign to WotC?O_0