List of Tier 3 Base Classes?

[Empedocles]

Does anyone have a complete list of Tier 3 base classes that includes some of the more obscure WotC classes (Incarnum, for example.). It'd be extremely helpful.

[Draz74]

Well, here's a shot. Some of these are debated -- either considered borderline Tier 2 or borderline Tier 4 -- but all of them get called Tier 3 at least much of the time.

Bard
Ranger (with variants)
Factotum
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Wilder
Binder
Psychic Warrior
Duskblade
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Ardent (without ACFs)
Incarnate
Totemist

[Empedocles]

Thanks! I'm pretty sure the ardent is solid Tier 2...and is the ranger variant you're referring to the wildshape?

[HunterOfJello]

Ardent is usually held as falling into high tier 3. Their restricted power choices, reduced powers known, and lack of free psionic feats puts them lower than normal psions.

Once you add in their Dedicated Power ACF, that can obviously change quite a bit.

~

Both the Wildshape Ranger (UA) and Mystic Ranger (Dragon Mag) alternates are held as Tier 3. The Mystic Ranger gains lots of prepared spellcasting and qualifies for lots of interesting PrCs and other options. The Wildshape Ranger has its own shenanigans and can enter Master of Many Forms, which is definitely badass.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to only allow T3 characters... you have lots of options:

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Druid, with as many of these nerfs as you can manage:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

Shaman (Oriental Adventures, possible Tier 2 due to spell access, DM may need to only allow access to specific spells)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Ranger (Wildshape variant Ranger, Unearthed Arcana, SRD)

Now for WotC Affiliates and Pathfinder. Note that these are MUCH shakier in their statuses, and my info is dated...
Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)
Summoner (Pathfinder)
Alchemist (Pathfinder)
Inquisitor (pathfinder)
Magus (Pathfinder)

Now for the homebrew stuff, I link you to every class which is also a link in this thread (from which I also got much of the inspiration to this post): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

It has a variant of the Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Druid, Warmage, Swashbuckler, Monk, Barbarian, Soulknife, Marshal, along with several custom designed classes and several classes which were still 'being examined'; if there is a class or a flavor which you prefer, you can probably find something like that in that thread.

[FMArthur]

None of the existing Druid ACFs can ever bring it any lower than T2.

OA Shaman is basically a Cleric with a slightly altered spell list and not as much external support. It's not T3 at all and is probably T1 depending on how you gauge it.

I doubt Shugenja fall below T2 either, even if their spell list isn't the best around.

[Empedocles]

None of the existing Druid ACFs can ever bring it any lower than T2.

OA Shaman is basically a Cleric with a slightly altered spell list and not as much external support. It's not T3 at all and is probably T1 depending on how you gauge it.

I doubt Shugenja fall below T2 either, even if their spell list isn't the best around.

Agreed. I've actually played two shugenjas, and while they were heavily optimized they actually outshone our party wizard. Shugenja is actually much better than people give it credit for IMO (except for sense elements, which is a stupid ability).

Shaman is not tier 3. I personally put it at high Tier 2, since the druid is really only Tier 1 because of wildshape (without it it's about as strong as a sorcerer). There is a sidhe druid variant from Dragon magazine which might be a mid Tier 2 because it has virtually no fighting capabilities, and with the shapechanger and spontaneous rejuvenation it might be high Tier 3. Maybe. Probably not.

Otherwise though, it's a good list. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Does anyone have the tier for Dragon Compendium stuff? And what tier is the soulborn from MoI?

[Particle_Man]

I thought Wilder was basically the psionic Sorcerer. What makes it tier 3 not 2?

[eggs]

The Ardent and Wilder have all the same game-breaking tools as the Psion, just fewer at a time. Per the tier qualifications (T2s are capable of snapping the game in half in multiple ways/T3s have to try to do so), they fit much better with the Favored Soul and Sorcerer than the Duskblade or Crusader. Ditto for Shaman (though it's supposed to have SpC support, so it might even surpass the Favored Soul, et al.).

[Particle_Man]

So the "healers" of Tier 3 are the Bard and Factotum (and to some extent the Crusader)?

[The-Mage-King]

I thought Wilder was basically the psionic Sorcerer. What makes it tier 3 not 2?

Wilder has 11 powers known at level 20. That... Is nowhere NEAR enough, even with powers being more versatile than spells.

[eggs]

Looking at it, a lot of them have really weird healing abilities.

This is the first time I've felt any inclination to run a tier-restricted group, but I just want to see which route something like a Dread Necromancer/Psychic Warrior/Crusader/Incarnate group goes to keep its HP positive.

[darksolitaire]

Suggested tier 3 classes from Dragon Compedium:
Death Master, for same reasons then Dread Necromancer.
Jester, essentially based on Bard.
Savant, but not without being optimised/PrCd out.

Debate.

Also, Spirit Shaman is solid tier 3. *runs away*

[eggs]

Wilder has 11 powers known at level 20. That... Is nowhere NEAR enough, even with powers being more versatile than spells.
Psychic Reformation and Educated make that much less restricting than it looks.


Also, Spirit Shaman is solid tier 3. *runs away*
Yeah, no.

[sonofzeal]

I thought Wilder was basically the psionic Sorcerer. What makes it tier 3 not 2?
Check out the number of powers known. It's ridiculously small. The Socerer knows more spells of 6th level and above than the Wilder knows, total.

Psions are already functionally more like Sorcerers since they're spontaneous and can't expand/exchange their list. Wilders are... somewhere between Bards and Warmages.

[Empedocles]

Right now I'm trying to put together a PvP tournament, and I'm restricting it to Tier 3 and below (hence the list) due to the fact that if someone makes a solid, balanced warblade build a cleric will still rip it apart.

From the Compendium, anyone have any idea where the mountebank would be? I really like that class (more or less despite myself).

[The-Mage-King]

Psychic Reformation and Educated make that much less restricting than it looks.

Yes, but the basic chassis is... Well, regretful.


And I think it's T3, including the Educated ACF, since 4 powers are... Well, not enough.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

While I believe the Summoner is high T3, the majority of people in PF Tier threads believe it's low T2. I think it's a combination of the ability to spam Summon Monster IX, have a make-your-own-Animal-Companion ++, and the T1-equivalent access to a variety of battlefield control (and some buffs). That said, I still believe it can't be higher tier than Beguiler.

[eggs]

Yes, but the basic chassis is... Well, regretful.


And I think it's T3, including the Educated ACF, since 4 powers are... Well, not enough.
The requirements for Tier 2:
"Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

With things like Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity and Schism, the Wilder owns the action economy.

It can do things like Metamorphize into a Hydra, move and make 4 full attacks in a round, or steal a Phase Spider's Ethereal Jaunt ability with Metamorpic Transfer at ECL 12.

It can do Mailman-caliber blasting - dishing out enough nearly irresistible damage to level almost any level-appropriate monster in a round, and it can do it without blowing all its PP in one fight.

It can excel at control by spewing over-MLed Dispels, debuffs and Astral Constructs tougher than the party fighter faster than most other casters are able to keep up.

Without Psychic Reformation, the Wilder might only be able to do one of these at a time, but that still meets the parameters for T2 (remember that T3 characters are supposed to often be more flexible in an immediate sense) - and with Psychic Reformation, there shouldn't be any question (it never takes more than 1 encounter to catch up to normal XP progression after redoing the past 4 levels, which is 2 powers known, 1 expanded knowledge and 1-2 feats - typically all you need).

[Psyren]

Base Wilder is high T3; Educated pushes it over into T2. This is not merely due to the low powers known - it needs EK to break out of its restrictive list (gaining much-needed abilities like flight and teleportation.)

Shadowcaster needs Ari's fix to be T3, otherwise it is T4.

PF Summoner is T2, even with its low spell cap, thanks to discounts and SLAs.

[Glimbur]

Looking at it, a lot of them have really weird healing abilities.

This is the first time I've felt any inclination to run a tier-restricted group, but I just to see which route something like a Dread Necromancer/Psychic Warrior/Crusader/Incarnate group goes to keep its HP positive.

Incarnate can UMD a wand of cure light/lesser vigor. Bards are tier 3 and can innately use wands of cure light.

I've had success with just giving the party a ball of light that follows them around and heals them for an arbitrary amount of dice out of combat. If you're looking to run a more resource-management game where wave after wave of enemies has an effect then that's not for you, but if the party picks when to fight anyway it saves some time.

[Snowbluff]

None of the existing Druid ACFs can ever bring it any lower than T2.


Hell, the spellcasting alone is enough to make Druid T1. Are there any ACF for it that can really change that?

[Lateral]

Hell, the spellcasting alone is enough to make Druid T1. Are there any ACF for it that can really change that?

Spontaneous Divine Caster. That probably brings it down to tier 2 alone, and if not adding Shapeshift variant Wildshape on brings it down easily.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hell, the spellcasting alone is enough to make Druid T1. Are there any ACF for it that can really change that?



Druid, with as many of these nerfs as you can manage:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)


Lah dee dah....

[eggs]

Lah dee dah....
Spontaneous casters with bottomless and abusable spell lists are essentially the definition of T2.

[Psyren]

Spontaneous casters with bottomless and abusable spell lists are essentially the definition of T2.

He's saying that he included the Spontaneous one, which would have dropped Druid to T2.

[Chronos]

Binders also have healing capability, via Buer. In fact, Buer is the only official healing capability designed to be usable for unlimited out-of-combat healing (there are several other tricks that can do it, but they're all tricks, not just straight out-of-the-box abilities).

[Darth Stabber]

Suggested tier 3 classes from Dragon Compedium:
Death Master, for same reasons then Dread Necromancer.
Jester, essentially based on Bard.
Savant, but not without being optimised/PrCd out.

Debate.

Also, Spirit Shaman is solid tier 3. *runs away*

RAW Death Master can write any wizard spells he wants into his spellbook, making him a wizard with actual class features. Even RAI he probably falls into teir2 because his spell list is still much less narrow than DN.

Jester probably falls in the very low end of tier3 if not t4 since, while similar to bard, it lacks the love that bard gets in so many other books (DFI, Snowflake wardance, ect).

Savant you are probably correct about.

Spirit Shaman can swap out as needed, and druid list it draws from is awesome enough, it is certainly tier2, and a case could be made for it being the lowest man on the tier1 totem pole.


Binders also have healing capability, via Buer. In fact, Buer is the only official healing capability designed to be usable for unlimited out-of-combat healing (there are several other tricks that can do it, but they're all tricks, not just straight out-of-the-box abilities).

Wrong: Dragon shaman. Sure it only heals up to half, but it is unlimited out of the box (and they have touch of vitality to make up for the rest of it though it is not unlimited). It is notably worse, but it meets the requirement specified.

[Lans]

Hell, the spellcasting alone is enough to make Druid T1. Are there any ACF for it that can really change that?

Secrets of pact magic(3rd party) lets you swap out spell casting for the ability to bind a vestige of level equal to the highest spell level it could normally cast

[gorfnab]

So the "healers" of Tier 3 are the Bard and Factotum (and to some extent the Crusader)?
Nightstalker has all of the level 1 through 6 Conjuration (Healing) spells from the PHB.

[sonofzeal]

Nightstalker has all of the level 1 through 6 Conjuration (Healing) spells from the PHB.
They have all of...

Cure Critical Wounds
Cure Light Wounds
Mass Cure Light Wounds
Cure Minor Wounds
Cure Moderate Wounds
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds
Mass Cure Serious Wounds
Delay Poison
Heal
Heal Mount
Neutralize Poison
Raise Dead (M)
Regenerate
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease
Remove Paralysis
Restoration (M)
Greater Restoration (XP)
Lesser Restoration

That's... quite a lot of spells. I don't remember their spell list being that extensive. Or did you just mean the Cure X line?

[gorfnab]

That's... quite a lot of spells. I don't remember their spell list being that extensive. Or did you just mean the Cure X line?
Cure Minor
Cure Light
Cure Moderate
Lesser Restoration
Cure Serious
Cure Critical
Restoration
Mass Cure Light
Raise Dead
Greater Restoration
Mass Cure Moderate
Heal

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Prerequisite plug. Heck it'd be stickied if it weren't for the fact that I kno

[gomipile]

There is an easy way for the Wilder to be played solidly in the Tier 2 range using nothing but material from the XPH/SRD. Take the feat Imprint Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#imprintStone) sometime before level 8, and make sure you get Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) as your power at level 8, or just get a power stone of it.

Now, remember this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown)rule for using power stones:

Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known
A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest level power in the power stone or repertoire). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.

Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.

Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.



It does take an extra turn to do so, which is fine for utility type powers. Powers cast out of combat can have a very big game changing effect, after all.

This sort of trick is functionally similar to what Warlocks can do with Deceive Item after level 12, but costs less XP if the powers are used more than once.

Now if only Wilders had UPD as a class skill. You'd think that the charaisma-focused class in the book Use Psionic Device was published in would have it as a class skill, but nooo...

[Havelock]

The Warlock is a textbook tier 4.

[Fenice]

Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)
A big no.

The nightstalker gets an improved version of the Leadership feat three times for free. You could choose an artificer ghost for the magic items, a wizard ghost for the spells, and any other ghost with the malevolence ability for a front line warrior. And you are basically a party on your own.
And from 6th level, he is the best scout in the game, having an incorporeal and ethereal creature as companion.

In addition, he casts divine spells (max 6th level) in the same way as a beguiler/DN/warmage. That means he can use DMM (yeah, he also gets rebuke undead) and he can get free spells if he aquires a domain. The Mystic of the Citadel PrC grants free polymorph spells (Alteration domain), while the contemplative grants any domain you want.
Plus, he can add divination and necromancy spells from the cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell lists to his own via advance learning. Divine insight and shivering touch come to mind.

It's actually a very good class.

[Frog Dragon]

Well, here's a shot. Some of these are debated -- either considered borderline Tier 2 or borderline Tier 4 -- but all of them get called Tier 3 at least much of the time.

Bard
Ranger (with variants)
Factotum
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Wilder
Binder
Psychic Warrior
Duskblade
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Ardent (without ACFs)
Incarnate
Totemist

I agree with this except for the Warlock and the Wilder. They seem pretty clearly T4 to me.

As for the Spirit Shaman, that sounds like a pretty textbook tier 1 to me. Sure, they get a very meager selection of spells to use each day, but they can change that list around each day, and ultimately, there are a lot of spells, even in the druid list, that can destroy most encounters. In the lower levels, they have more day-to-day versatility than wizards (because they pick from the whole druid list). Until the Spirit Shaman retrieves spells in the morning, you'll have no idea what he's going to do.

It's also one of the most newb-friendly casters around, and certainly the newb-friendliest in tiers 1 and 2. It has spontaneous casting like a sorcerer, which means you don't have to figure out how many times per day you're going to need spell X and if it's worth using now or saving for later. Instead, you spam entangle. Because you cast spontaneously. However, if you did something silly like retrieve "Jump" as your only first level spell, you just shrug and retrieve a better spell next day. Yay, spirit shamans! :smallbiggrin:

[gomipile]

I agree with this except for the Warlock and the Wilder. They seem pretty clearly T4 to me.

As for the Spirit Shaman, that sounds like a pretty textbook tier 1 to me. Sure, they get a very meager selection of spells to use each day, but they can change that list around each day, and ultimately, there are a lot of spells, even in the druid list, that can destroy most encounters. In the lower levels, they have more day-to-day versatility than wizards (because they pick from the whole druid list). Until the Spirit Shaman retrieves spells in the morning, you'll have no idea what he's going to do.

It's also one of the most newb-friendly casters around, and certainly the newb-friendliest in tiers 1 and 2. It has spontaneous casting like a sorcerer, which means you don't have to figure out how many times per day you're going to need spell X and if it's worth using now or saving for later. Instead, you spam entangle. Because you cast spontaneously. However, if you did something silly like retrieve "Jump" as your only first level spell, you just shrug and retrieve a better spell next day. Yay, spirit shamans! :smallbiggrin:

Well, the Wilder can't be Tier 4 because it's class powers list is too good. The very fact that they have multiple powers known from such a good list puts them at least at tier 3, and I think they can be played as a solid tier 2 if built with some forethought.

[Frog Dragon]

Well, the Wilder can't be Tier 4 because it's class powers list is too good. The very fact that they have multiple powers known from such a good list puts them at least at tier 3, and I think they can be played as a solid tier 2 if built with some forethought.

A wilder simply doesn't have the flexibility to be a tier 3. Say you're a tenth level wilder. You have 6 powers. Sure, there are plenty of good powers you can pick, but you still only have 6 powers. It is a high tier 4 though, and educated wilder could bring it up a tier, but still.

[gomipile]

A wilder simply doesn't have the flexibility to be a tier 3. Say you're a tenth level wilder. You have 6 powers. Sure, there are plenty of good powers you can pick, but you still only have 6 powers. It is a high tier 4 though, and educated wilder could bring it up a tier, but still.

So? A 10th level Warblade is considered tier 3 only knows 8 maneuvers and 3 stances, and maneuvers are nearly all combat focused.

Look at JaronK's definition of Tier 2:

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job.

The very fact that Every. Single. One. of those 6 powers your hypothetical 10th level Wilder knows can be a campaign smasher makes it tier 2. The quality of the list matters for a lot. Add in the fact that the Wilder can take Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct and essentially summon a custom Tier 4 several levels higher than himself, and the idea that the wilder is itself Tier 4, or even Tier 3 looks pretty flimsy.

[Frog Dragon]

So? A 10th level Warblade is considered tier 3 only knows 8 maneuvers and 3 stances, and maneuvers are nearly all combat focused.

Look at JaronK's definition of Tier 2:


The very fact that Every. Single. One. of those 6 powers your hypothetical 10th level Wilder knows can be a campaign smasher makes it tier 2. The quality of the list matters for a lot. Add in the fact that the Wilder can take Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct and essentially summon a custom Tier 4 several levels higher than himself, and the idea that the wilder is itself Tier 4, or even Tier 3 looks pretty flimsy.
And that 10th level warblade has twice as many tricks as the wilder, coupled with the fact that the wilder is squishy. That wilder will have to spend a number of powers just to not die. And those powers are a scarce resource. In general, a single spell of power is not a campaign smasher in itself (discounting the few banlist mainstays like shapechange and time stop). A campaign smasher happens when you have enough of those abilities to obviate most counters and weak points. A base wilder will be hard pressed to do this. An educated wilder will probably have an easier time of it, but still.

[gomipile]

And that 10th level warblade has twice as many tricks as the wilder, coupled with the fact that the wilder is squishy. That wilder will have to spend a number of powers just to not die. And those powers are a scarce resource. In general, a single spell of power is not a campaign smasher in itself (discounting the few banlist mainstays like shapechange and time stop). A campaign smasher happens when you have enough of those abilities to obviate most counters and weak points. A base wilder will be hard pressed to do this. An educated wilder will probably have an easier time of it, but still.

I think you are intentionally ignoring the massive increase in quality and versatility of the Psion/Wilder over the Tome of Battle maneuvers.

You are deliberately arguing a point you probably don't support, and ignoring JaronK's definition of Tier 2 just to bait me.

Good day to you, sir.

[Frog Dragon]

The increase in power is, of course, there, but the tier system isn't exactly about power. It's about usable options. I'm not claiming that the wilder's options aren't worthwhile. I'm claiming that when coupled with the squishiness of the wilder, this guy won't have too many powers targeted at enemies, and as such, there will be holes in his combat options. Holes that will come up much more often than the nearly nonexistent ones in a well-built sorcerer list. This is why I don't think it deserves to be in the same tier as the sorcerer.

[gomipile]

The increase in power is, of course, there, but the tier system isn't exactly about power.

This is true, but part of the definition of Tier 1 and 2 is: "Has world changing powers at high levels" according to JaronK.

[Frog Dragon]

This is true, but part of the definition of Tier 1 and 2 is: "Has world changing powers at high levels" according to JaronK.
The lower levels must factor into the equation on high-tiers as well. Almost every spellcaster becomes horribly busted at the highest level of spells or powers. This includes the Healer (Gate), but the healer is still tier 5 because it's wholly unimpressive before that.

[Darth Stabber]

The increase in power is, of course, there, but the tier system isn't exactly about power. It's about usable options. I'm not claiming that the wilder's options aren't worthwhile. I'm claiming that when coupled with the squishiness of the wilder, this guy won't have too many powers targeted at enemies, and as such, there will be holes in his combat options. Holes that will come up much more often than the nearly nonexistent ones in a well-built sorcerer list. This is why I don't think it deserves to be in the same tier as the sorcerer.

Wilder stands a proof that you can force a square peg through a round hole. And given some of the psychic powers out there, it doesn't take all that many to have an amazing contribution in the bulk of encounters. Add to that 3/4BAB and a bigger hit die and you have a mailman in a box, with bonus resiliance and accuracy. I smashes encounters not by having the right power for the job, but by making it's powers the right ones for the job. And as stated before 1 feat (EK:astral construct) is more utility than any ToB class could ever hope to get. Wilder is tier2 beyond any reasonable doubt.

[Zaq]

I agree that the Wilder is basically the definition of the bottom of T2.

Psion powers can be game-smashers, or at least game-changers. They're really, really powerful if you know what you're doing. A Wilder can get nearly any power a Psion can (even the specialist lists are just an EK away), and in many cases, they can use them better, just thanks to Wild Surge. Any turn that a Wilder is using a power that even remotely applies to the situation, they're being almost as powerful and useful as a Psion, who is pretty much unarguably T2. (Almost) anything a Psion can do, a Wilder can do too, at least at chargen. They can't do ALL of the things a Psion can do, but they can do ANY of the things a Psion can do (again, with a couple exceptions), and those things they choose to do will be just as powerful as when the Psion does 'em. Sure, they might not have the best tool for the job in every single situation, but you know what? A Sorcerer might run into the same issue. Doesn't make the Sorc T3.

I'm torn about where Shugenjas are. They do get 9th level spells, but their lists are relatively short, and the whole element specialization thing means that you pretty much have to give up at least one useful class of spells, with very few ways to recover them. Giving up Air loses your illusions and a lot of your mobility spells. Giving up Earth loses most of your good buffs, especially defensive ones that keep your squishy self standing. Giving up Water loses most of your divinations and similar toolbox spells, as well as healing. Fire is probably the easiest to give up, but that still loses your damage backup. That, and the whole "half your spells must be from your chosen element" thing really puts a limit on how broad their toolboxes can be. The fact that they have to make those kinds of sacrifices makes them more balanced than Wizards and the like, no argument, but when we're comparing them to all the spellcasters 3.5 has out there, it makes them lose a lot of luster. I could see them anywhere from T2 (they still get 9th level spells, that they get to choose, from a list that does share a lot with the Sorc and Cleric lists, even if they do have drawbacks—compare to Favored Soul or Ardent) to T3 (they can't be prepared for everything, but if they work, they can make sure they're rarely totally useless—compare to Bard) to T4 (the functional limitations of their spells known make it impossible for them to have the spread of options they really need to be above T4, and their opportunity costs get really nasty—compare to Shadowcaster).

[TehLivingDeath]

Since more than a couple of posters mentioned it... I honestly can't wrap my head around Spirit Shaman being in Tier 2. At face value it seems to measure up to Druid like Sorcerer does to Wizard (except for getting a few nasty exclusive spells and dragonwrought cheese), but it's perfectly able to adapt to most situations.

If the Druid is in Tier 1 because it can, given a day's notice, prepare spells to do anything, then so can the Spirit Shaman. Sure, the number of "called" spells for each level is tiny and it's spell list isn't as diverse as the Wizard's, but that should only put him in low Tier 1. He can still break the game in a huge number of ways, which is exactly what separates the Sorcerer and the Psion from the Big Five.

[eggs]

If that 10th level Wilder is doing things like 1-round killing every monster it encounters, summoning 13 HD Astral constructs as a swift action, and rewriting its abilities list in the same party rest stops where the Warblade tweaks its maneuvers readied, I think it's safe to say it has the Warblade outgunned by a fair margin. The Educated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant makes high-caliber optimization trivial (it's enough of a staple to basically be the default), but it's still much easier for the unmodified Wilder to thrive in a high-level game with wizards and sorcerers running amok than it is for the Warblade.

I want to put Shugenja in T3, given the severe limits associated with both banning Earth/Air and not banning them (Fire/Water Shugenja get very few selections from the better elements), and given their lack of strong high level spell selections.

[Frog Dragon]

I concede the point on wilder tiers. I decided to make a wilder power list for a that hypothetical tenth level wilder and came up with this.

1. Vigor, Entangling Ectoplasm
2. Energy Stun
3. Dispel Psionics
4. Death Urge
5. Psionic True Seeing

...And I honestly can't come up with too many situations where this guy wouldn't be useful. And I'm probably not even picking the best powers I could for a wilder.

So yeah, color me converted (wololoo).

[FMArthur]

Since more than a couple of posters mentioned it... I honestly can't wrap my head around Spirit Shaman being in Tier 2. At face value it seems to measure up to Druid like Sorcerer does to Wizard (except for getting a few nasty exclusive spells and dragonwrought cheese), but it's perfectly able to adapt to most situations.

If the Druid is in Tier 1 because it can, given a day's notice, prepare spells to do anything, then so can the Spirit Shaman. Sure, the number of "called" spells for each level is tiny and it's spell list isn't as diverse as the Wizard's, but that should only put him in low Tier 1. He can still break the game in a huge number of ways, which is exactly what separates the Sorcerer and the Psion from the Big Five.

I don't think the tier system actually sorts class power as well as some think. There are specific criteria for classes being Tier 2 and Tier 1, and that's easy enough to sort; Spirit Shaman, Shaman and Death Master all belong in Tier 1 by the precedent set with swappable-spells-known tier 1s and fixed-spells-known tier 2s.

But despite that, the combined power and versatility of these classes only winds up more comparable to tier 2 casters. The flexibility they have on their particular lists falls short of the tier 1s because the lists themselves are poorer, or in the SS's case, it's just so much weaker at using that list. They compete with Tier 2s like the Sorcerer more readily, having higher versatility but being restricted to significantly smaller or weaker lists. They're special cases because relative to the tier 2s - and unlike tier 1s - choosing them is a trade of reduced overall power for their day-to-day versatility.

You can categorize them into the tiers above these simply enough, but if I was actually using the tiers as power gauges for deciding which classes to apply real game effects to, I'd treat Death Master, Shaman and Spirit Shaman as Tier 2 and treat Ardent and Wilder as Tier 3. I'm of half a mind to bump Shugenja down as well.

[gomipile]

At least the Spirit Shaman ends up being fun to play in nearly any campaign, one way or another. That is more than can be said for a lot of classes.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't think the tier system actually sorts class power as well as some think. There are specific criteria for classes being Tier 2 and Tier 1, and that's easy enough to sort; Spirit Shaman, Shaman and Death Master all belong in Tier 1 by the precedent set with swappable-spells-known tier 1s and fixed-spells-known tier 2s.

But despite that, the combined power and versatility of these classes only winds up more comparable to tier 2 casters. The flexibility they have on their particular lists falls short of the tier 1s because the lists themselves are poorer, or in the SS's case, it's just so much weaker at using that list. They compete with Tier 2s like the Sorcerer more readily, having higher versatility but being restricted to significantly smaller or weaker lists. They're special cases because relative to the tier 2s - and unlike tier 1s - choosing them is a trade of reduced overall power for their day-to-day versatility.

You can categorize them into the tiers above these simply enough, but if I was actually using the tiers as power gauges for deciding which classes to apply real game effects to, I'd treat Death Master, Shaman and Spirit Shaman as Tier 2 and treat Ardent and Wilder as Tier 3. I'm of half a mind to bump Shugenja down as well.

Death Master RAW can learn any spell a wizard can and has class features on top of that. By that mark it's tier 1, but given RAI it might push them down to 2. They have a smattering of really good non-necro spells on their list that puts them as one of the more versatile t2s. I haven't seen ardent in play enough to inform my opinion beyond the theoretical. And wilder with the educated ACF has just enough powers to do any nasty thing a psion can do, they just can't do as many, which is the mark of tier2.

[Hazzardevil]

Psychic Reformation and Educated make that much less restricting than it looks.


Yeah, no.

Reformation is inpractical considering that it costs experiance, but educated gives wilder a boost, not a huge one. Wilder is tier 2 by effectively being the bastard child of a psion and a warlock.

[Darth Stabber]

Reformation is inpractical considering that it costs experiance, but educated gives wilder a boost, not a huge one. Wilder is tier 2 by effectively being the bastard child of a psion and a warlock.

Reformation isn't that expensive. 50xp per level you go back. That's less than making a level appropriate magic item. You can't do it all the time, but it's worth doing at least once mid levels (and at high levels the cost is almost a joke). And since it won't be manifested frequently (like 2-5 times ever), it's great to pick up on a powerstone for a near-trivial 700gp.

And educated gives wilder almost half over again as many powers known, all in exchange for a useless class ability. And considering it can pick discipline powers and powers from other classes with the additional pick, it's not huge, it's class redefiningly gigantic.

[Empedocles]

Guys...wilder is pretty solidly Tier 2 with the ACF, and IMO still low tier 2 without.