If you were this ECL 20 character, how would you play it?

[Particle_Man]

You are asked to join a short core-only (PHB, DMG, MM) campaign where everyone is level 20. You are given a character sheet. To your surprise it is the Astral Deva angel from the MM (12 racial HD, +8 LA). To say the least, this might be underpowered compared to other options. Nevertheless, you decide to give it a try (if you don't/wouldn't, then there is no need to reply to this thread).

How would you approach playing this character in a way that contributes to a group that is at level 20?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Astral Deva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelAstralDeva)....

You get Continual Flame at-will, so make Everburning Torches and sell them to break WBL?

Let's look at what you could do to an iconic CR 20 Core monster, the Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor):
You get +21 to hit, versus an AC of 35, horrible odds of even hitting. Assuming you're wearing +5 Mithral Breastplate with a +5 Animated Heavy Shield (and you're given proficiency with them, which you don't have by default), he's just as likely to hit you, but he makes twice as many attacks.
You have spell-like abilities at a caster level of 12, he has SR 28, and his save bonuses are almost as high as your DCs, so you have almost no chance of even posing a threat to your opponent.

Between the Protective Aura and your Aid, Holy Aura, Discern Lies, Plane Shift, and Remove Curse/Disease/Fear spell-like abilities, you could help the rest of the party out a bit, but nothing compared to a 20th level spellcaster. Forget using your skill checks to help out the party, the difference in max ranks alone puts you at too much of a disadvantage. Maybe if you were fighting a lot of undead, your Mace of Disruption would just happen to enable you to contribute in a meaningful way, but otherwise you're probably going to be stuck feeling like a sidekick the whole game. It doesn't look like it would be fun at all.

[Aegis013]

Do you get level 20 WBL or feat selection anything? Or just straight as is entry from the Monster Manual?

I'd probably look for some beneficial things to polymorph into, in a pinch You have Heal 1/day, which is something. Best bet is target anything that looks like it might not have a great fortitude save, try to get it while it's flatfooted with invisibility and score two hits with that mace. 1d6 rounds of stun is nothing to shake a stick at. (assuming you're playing this thing as written without WBL or anything)

Are the other players in a similar predicament? Or are they PC classes?

[DeAnno]

Ok, so it's a CR 14 creature with 12 HD at level 20. This is pretty bad, but it could be worse.

Without some serious gear, I don't think you're accomplishing anything noteworthy in melee. +12 BaB and mediocre strength end the tale there. Unfortunately that means we basically have no feats if you can't change them around.

We do have a pretty decent scouting package however, with passable Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Hide and Invis along with Fly 100 ft good and See Invis. We can even Scout by shapechanging or be a party face, with Change Form, Tongues, Discern Lies, good Cha, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive.

We have Protective Aura, which is actually pretty good. Protection from Evil and Immunity to 1st-3rd level spells for you and everyone within 20 feet, along with some other random bonuses. You try to be wherever this can be the most useful, and that shouldn't be hard to manage with Fly 100 feet. Remember PfE suppresses Dominate once you get them in your field. Similar to our Protective Aura is an at-will Holy Aura, which we can spam to leave similar benefits in our wake.

We have SR 30 along with some immunities, which is handy, though our saves are not great and we have mediocre hp and AC.

We have a heal and a blade barrier in our pockets, neither of which is bad. We also have infinite CL 12 Holy Word, which actually has its uses more than one might guess (our party being immune to it is a small mercy).

So out of combat, we can scout well and be a party face. In combat, we are a highly mobile protective aura that can spam more protection with a couple other tricks and the ability to splat large groups of minions with Holy Word. Honestly there are probably worse things a malicious DM could've handed you at ECL 20.

EDIT: Also we are a party bus with at will Plane Shift. DC 22 is even high enough that something worthwhile might conceivably fail a save to it, though its unlikely.

[Flickerdart]

Since nothing you have is contingent on HD, I would get level drained down to 1, get a Greater Restoration done and then use the XP to take levels in something better than Outsider HD. Something to patch up your poor HP and saves would be nice.

[Feralventas]

It seems worth asking about whether we're rolling our own stats for it or if we're taking the default; remember that the entries in the MM are the Average for that species, so a PC might have their own 4d6b3 to work with, meaning that we're looking at
+12 Strength
+8 Dexterity
+8 Constitution
+8 Intelligence
+8 Wisdom
+10 Charisma

Between this, customizable feats, WBL, and the rest, this character is very potent from a simple number-crunch perspective and can contribute as noted in the earlier posts while also having plenty of skill points, enough HP from that con-boost to survive in combat even at 20, and the 1st level they take of anything that operates off of their stats will be astoundingly potent for it. A dip into Warblade at 21 would grant maneuvers as an 11th level initiator.

Heck yeah I'd play this.

Mind you the MM1 entry on its own isn't bad, but would probably be a bit sub-par from the perspective of a power-gamer, but should be able to keep up and not be a complete Drag on the party.




Now then, the important bits; characterization.

An astral deva's paradigm is going to be a bit of a shift from the usual PC options; a being literally made of and created by the forces of good within the universe. Some folks try for it, and some even succeed, but this is likely to be a challenge if the player is held to the tenants of good as described in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
-Never Harming Innocents
-No quarter to unrepentant evil.
-Always putting others and the greater good above one's self.

We are talking Break down in the middle of a fight because of a moral quandary (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0220.html)-level of goody-two-shoes here.

This can work, but make sure it's put in the hands of someone who can go full Paragon Of Good And Law.

[u-b]

Well, with all that is already said I want to add that:
1. You should not underestimate strategic mobility, especially HUGE amounts of it (unlimited plane shift is not something easily achieved even at level 20)
2. With some wealth (and feats?) put into improving CL of unlimited Holy Word you can play some crowd control, but probably still not much (I don't suppose the world of this game would be eberronish).

Does not all that much fit into the party going for the boss, but still makes decent raider.


A dip into Warblade at 21 would grant maneuvers as an 11th level initiator.

7th, no?

[Randomguy]

I'd focus on stealth and hit and run tactics: you've got 132 skillpoints minimum even if you dump int, and you've also got invisibility as an at will SLA, not to mention change shape.

Use change shape to pretend to be a caster.

Pick up flyby attack. It's a solid feat by all accounts.

Put your highest stat in strength, next highest in con and then in cha (for your SLA's). (You can swap the last 2 if you prefer)
With 18 base strength and the right items, you should have around 44 str.

Against mooks (or anything without SR, if you can boost your caster level somehow) , use holy word. If you decide to get a particularly high cha, then use plane shift as a save or die.

Don't neglect your stun ability. With strength in the 40's the DC should be around 33.

[Alienist]

Holy Aura looks like a nice party buff.

With respect to the Balor vs the Angel, this is CR 14 vs CR 20, if the CR 14 doesn't come off worse, then something is wrong.

However, my understanding of the CR system is that just because you are level 20 and you run into something with CR 20, does not mean you are supposed to be able to solo it. As I understand it (I could be wrong) is that it means a partay of level 20s would find it a suitable challenge.

So you don't have to solo the Balor, you just have to help.

[unundindur]

Ability focus "Stun" and +6 item of strength, and if you get to roll stats, put all you can in strength.

Also get the spell resistance vestment from DMG2 and Improved Spell resistance.

Get rid of those horrible feats (great fortitude etc) via retaining.

Use planeshift for all it is worth, transportation, trade, allies and so on.

Keep Holy Aura up at all times.

Since you can fly, not beeing proficient with armor doesn't matter that much, so you might as well get a full plate of full fortification to mitigate your low HP.

Make your mace an item familiar (Unearthed arcane), and dump everything into it. After all, you are messed up without that mace anyway. Also, get an argumentation crystal in it (Magic item compendium).

Thats all from the top of my head atm :smallsmile:

[Re'ozul]

Actually, iirc a party of the same level as a monster's CR should find the monster to not be a total pushover but also not really that difficult.
Based on the description group level +2 should be very hard and about the 50% chance for winning ratio.
Since a two step increase in CR was supposed to be doubling in threat, and a party usually was supposed to have 4 members. The basic idea could be that a Monster with a CR of 2 less than the party's level should fit right in.

But these are all kind of useless as with optimization of any capability the CR system falls apart easily.

[danzibr]

It seems worth asking about whether we're rolling our own stats for it or if we're taking the default; remember that the entries in the MM are the Average for that species, so a PC might have their own 4d6b3 to work with, meaning that we're looking at
+12 Strength
+8 Dexterity
+8 Constitution
+8 Intelligence
+8 Wisdom
+10 Charisma

Between this, customizable feats, WBL, and the rest, this character is very potent from a simple number-crunch perspective and can contribute as noted in the earlier posts while also having plenty of skill points, enough HP from that con-boost to survive in combat even at 20, and the 1st level they take of anything that operates off of their stats will be astoundingly potent for it. A dip into Warblade at 21 would grant maneuvers as an 11th level initiator.

Heck yeah I'd play this.

Mind you the MM1 entry on its own isn't bad, but would probably be a bit sub-par from the perspective of a power-gamer, but should be able to keep up and not be a complete Drag on the party.




Now then, the important bits; characterization.

An astral deva's paradigm is going to be a bit of a shift from the usual PC options; a being literally made of and created by the forces of good within the universe. Some folks try for it, and some even succeed, but this is likely to be a challenge if the player is held to the tenants of good as described in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
-Never Harming Innocents
-No quarter to unrepentant evil.
-Always putting others and the greater good above one's self.

We are talking Break down in the middle of a fight because of a moral quandary (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0220.html)-level of goody-two-shoes here.

This can work, but make sure it's put in the hands of someone who can go full Paragon Of Good And Law.
Hmm, this was an enlightening post (unfortunately OP said core-only, so no Warblade). Also, for those stats, do you not get + to stats for every 4 racial HD? That would change things slightly.

I think it really does depend on what the rules are. If some other people started at level 1 with, say, a 32-point buy then their characters were made from the ground up, it'd seem your character ought to start at level 1 with a 32-point buy then be made from the ground up. So you don't get the regular gear of the Astral Deva but you get the wealth of a 20th level character and you choose your own stats and feats.