[PF] Bard/Werewolf. Playable?

[Acanous]

I know these two things do not synergise very well, but we have a new player wanting to try it. Personally, I don't have any experience with the PF bard, so my "Snowflake Wardance" advice is completely irrelevant.

I appeal instead to the forum for ideas on how to make this actually fun to play.
If you need any information, we are level 13. The player has decided on half-elf for base race, and we have 25 Point-buy to work with.

Thanks for your time and your advice!

[Keneth]

Why wouldn't a werewolf and bard synergize with each other? Unless you're a singing bard, then it could get awkward. :smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

Well, there's that. She wants to go Perform: Wind instrument so she can play the Bagpipes, though. So it shouldn't be too much of a problem there.

Really the Werewolf boosts don't really do much for the bard class features, and while some of the bard features help out a werewolf, you basically lose your casting while shifted. (Or do you? I thought you did, but hey, maybe not)

[Keneth]

AFAIK, you can't cast in animal form, but I think it shouldn't be a problem in hybrid form. It should be a decent setup for a melee bard, perhaps a dervish dancer. The -2 Cha penalty is gonna hurt a bit, but I don't think it's gonna pose too much of a problem, especially with 25 point buy.

[Omegas]

Two thing about were creatures

1) She should be in the same size category as the were creature. If she is a half-ling or gnome she is going to have problems. Unlike other shape changers a were creature's gear does not change with the transformation. Usually it is left where ever they changed into full animal form or hybrid into a new size category .

2) the lower the HD of the base animal the better. Were creatures have a whole page to explain 2 thing.
--- The HD of the base animal are not subject to your Con mod. Thus if she raiser her con she will never be able to apply the bonus to HP for her animal HD.
--- You Animal HD effectively become substandard animal race levels that you have to take for your first level and then on up until it matches her animal HD.

A good question would be does she intend to be natural or inflicted?

[wayfare]

So, you've got a character who wants to play a Fianna Galliard :) I Think its very playable, though she should consider Perform: Howling as an option!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf_the_apocalypse#Breeds

[Acanous]

In Pathfinder, the Werewolf's HD don't count against it's level adjustment, which is 2. (Much better than 3.5)
Natural would be her choice, DM probably will enforce afflicted.

[marcielle]

Remember Frenzied Berserker? Do that to him instead of just wresting control away(since he's new and all and quite frankly, there doesn't seem to be any obvious way to abuse this). If he fails, he goes hybrid and attacks whatevers closest( I'm assuming he'll be a meelee bard so not TOO big a problem). Make it a secret roll and hide the results from him. Make it low but happenable. Even if it almost never happens, the fact that it COULD happen oughta give it a better feel. Maybe give him penalties depending on the phase of the moon.

@ Aconus - Isn't the Lycan template CR+1? The example werewolf is CR2 cos it has a fighter level, right? Or am I missing something?

[Beowulf DW]

AFAIK, you can't cast in animal form, but I think it shouldn't be a problem in hybrid form. It should be a decent setup for a melee bard, perhaps a dervish dancer. The -2 Cha penalty is gonna hurt a bit, but I don't think it's gonna pose too much of a problem, especially with 25 point buy.

Dervish Dancer combined with that feat that let's you put Dex to attack and damage with a scimitar can be pretty fun. That feat also let's you use a scimitar to qualify for and use the Duelist's abilities, if you really want to go the melee route. The player will have to give up the bagpipes for dancing, though. Combining it with the Skald archetype could have interesting results.

EDIT: Come to think of it, which is better: the Dawnflower Dervish Bard, or the Dervish Dancer Bard?

[Bhaakon]

I don't think a Dex build is the way to go here, because the hybrid form lets you use the better score (you humanoid form or a base wolf's) for each ability. The character should be doing all of its fighting in hybrid form anyway, so it can replace the dumped Dex with the wolf's 15 when it counts.


I'd also suggest loading up on trip feats (improved/greater trip and fury's fall) for the synergy with the wolf/hybrid form's free trip attacks.

[Acanous]

Skald looks really good. So does Archaeologist.
The two can stack, yes? I'm not seeing any of the same things replaced, and the luck pool says it counts as bardic performance and is affected by all the same things...
Would make for interesting times, using that luck pool to have barbarians show up and start bashing things.

@ Aconus - Isn't the Lycan template CR+1? The example werewolf is CR2 cos it has a fighter level, right? Or am I missing something?

Actually, the example has TWO fighter levels. I like to think it's because the Paizo team figured out that fighter levels were about as good as RHD.

[Bhaakon]

Nope. Archeologist and Savage Skald both modify fascinate, suggestion, mass suggestion, and soothing performance.

[Acanous]

b'aww.
Well, what archetypes DO stack with Skald?

[Keneth]

In Pathfinder, the Werewolf's HD don't count against it's level adjustment, which is 2. (Much better than 3.5)
Natural would be her choice, DM probably will enforce afflicted.
Actually, in Pathfinder, lycanthropes have NO racial HD and NO level adjustment (there's no such thing in PF). Aside from the -2 Cha penalty and the occasional killing spree there is NO drawback to being a lycan in Pathfinder.

[marcielle]

Really? Lol, in that case, I'm gonna have to try werewolf some time.

Though since the Lycan template has a CR+1, I'd assume most DMs would just tack on a LA of +1. Though even natural lycans aren't that strong this time round. As far as I know, it just gives +2 overall and a really nerfed wildshape.

[Keneth]

"Tacking on" a LA would be outside the rules, since level adjustment doesn't exist in Pathfinder. And rightly so, since it's a horrible concept. If you're gonna give your players a template, then don't punish them for it, adjust your challenges accordingly.

Lycanthrope abilities are pretty strong early on for non-caster builds and some half-casters that like to get in melee (such as magi and bards), but otherwise aren't anything special. I would allow it in my games as long as there's no meta stat dumping at character creation (e.g. I wouldn't allow a character with Dex 5 just because he can bump it up to 15 in hybrid form).

[Paul H]

Hi

I know it's sad, but it's gotta be said -

Perform: Hoooooooowl?

:P

Thanks
Paul H

[Acanous]

Actually, LA DOES exist in Pathfinder, see the section titled "Playing characters of powerful races". CR is your LA.
Upon further investigation it does seem that Werewolf is +1, which is fair for the stat increases and DR 10/silver.

[Keneth]

Those are, in fact, not rules but guidelines on how really powerful monster characters should be handled. They should generally be used only if a single character is noticeably stronger than the rest. By default, level adjustment in Pathfinder is nonexistent because the devs felt that powerful monster races should not be played, and it's up to each GM to delegate how this should be handled.

Besides, even if you use the recommended method, the "LA" is gone by the time you reach your 3rd class level since the devs also recommend a buy-off method to reflect the progressively diminishing gain from the race/template. And since you're starting out at 13th level, this is irrelevant.

[Beowulf DW]

Hi

I know it's sad, but it's gotta be said -

Perform: Hoooooooowl?

:P

Thanks
Paul H

If you play "Bark at the Moon" when you use that ability...That would just be plain awesome.

[Tokuhara]

This makes me want to play a Half-Giant Werebear Bear Totem Barbarian/Bear Warrior

[Shadowknight12]

This makes me want to play a Half-Giant Werebear Bear Totem Barbarian/Bear Warrior

How can you bear the redundancy?

[Beowulf DW]

Stop right there. A hurricane of puns would be unbearable.

[Acanous]

Can you point me to the section where it says you can buy off LA in Pathfinder? I'd like to be able to show it to the DM.

No advice on archetypes that stack with Skald? Sadface :<

[Tokuhara]

How can you bear the redundancy?

I believe in the right to arm bears. Remember: Only you can prevent zombie bear attacks.

[Keneth]

Can you point me to the section where it says you can buy off LA in Pathfinder? I'd like to be able to show it to the DM.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
This is basically a LA buy-off method. But like I said, the entire level adjustment mechanic is horribly designed and should be avoided like the plague. No amount of LA is "fair", a much more elegant way of handling the power disparity at low levels is to give the character a flat XP penalty that, like the bonuses, eventually becomes unnoticable.

[Bhaakon]

No advice on archetypes that stack with Skald? Sadface :<

It can combine with Celebrity, Daredevil, Detective, Geisha, Songhealer, and Street Performer.

As far as optimization goes, I don't see much there. Daredevil probably makes the most sense thematically, but the loss of inspire courage for a couple of relatively mediocre bonuses is a huge tradeoff.

Street performer could be cool. You're losing inspire courage again (ouch), but in exchange for a lot of interesting abilities. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's powerful, but at least it's not boring.

[Acanous]

Thanks, both of you. This'll help a great deal in character building and in bringing it before the DM.