Twice betrayer of shar fight help?

[Harry]

My dm said tomorrow I'll be fighting the twice betrayer of shar my build is wizard 6/incatnatrix 10/hathran 1/archmage 2/tainted scholar 1/cleric 3 I took the Initiate of Mystra feat does anyone have any tactics that I could use to defeat the twice betrayer ?

[tyckspoon]

Cast your own AMF, find a way to stand next to him, and smack him in the face with an Orb of (favored element)? Initiate allows you to successfully cast in an AMF; it doesn't say your spells remain unsuppressed if somebody else than brings you into the area of a *different* AMF. If you're both standing in each other's AMFs, both of your defensive suites will be suppressed, and you should have the better offense (not that it matters, as without your spells and items you're both ridiculously fragile; this is the rocket-taggiest of rocket tags, and I wouldn't recommend it except I don't think you have any other reliable way of bringing down another Initiate's defenses.)

[Harry]

Cast your own AMF, find a way to stand next to him, and smack him in the face with an Orb of (favored element)? Initiate allows you to successfully cast in an AMF; it doesn't say your spells remain unsuppressed if somebody else than brings you into the area of a *different* AMF. If you're both standing in each other's AMFs, both of your defensive suites will be suppressed, and you should have the better offense (not that it matters, as without your spells and items you're both ridiculously fragile; this is the rocket-taggiest of rocket tags, and I wouldn't recommend it except I don't think you have any other reliable way of bringing down another Initiate's defenses.)

I was thinking what if I cast irresistible unname with blooded metamagic does he have any defense against unname p.s I am not using the errata for irresistible spell

[Randomguy]

You've got infinite spell slots from tainted scholar, right? (By raising your taint impossibly high and using that instead of your int for bonus spells).

Shapechange into a cronotryn for more actions. If you don't have the book it's from, turn into a choker instead.

Disjunction of the first round to dispel all his buffs with no chance of failure.
Get a contingency or cast celerity when he tries to disjoin you.
Hit him with dimensional anchor or dimension lock as soon as you can to stop him from teleporting or escaping.


Which archmage high arcana did you choose? If you chose the counterspelling one then you can just counterspell everything he does and use quickened spells to hurt/debuff him.


Odd... When I looked up twice betrayer of shar it was a cleric build, but I distinctly recall it being a much more powerful dread necromancer build with rainbow servant (Those weren't it's only tricks). Or was the dread necro something else?

[Harry]

You've got infinite spell slots from tainted scholar, right? (By raising your taint impossibly high and using that instead of your int for bonus spells).

Shapechange into a cronotryn for more actions. If you don't have the book it's from, turn into a choker instead.

Disjunction of the first round to dispel all his buffs with no chance of failure.
Get a contingency or cast celerity when he tries to disjoin you.
Hit him with dimensional anchor or dimension lock as soon as you can to stop him from teleporting or escaping.


Which archmage high arcana did you choose? If you chose the counterspelling one then you can just counterspell everything he does and use quickened spells to hurt/debuff him.


Odd... When I looked up twice betrayer of shar it was a cleric build, but I distinctly recall it being a much more powerful dread necromancer build with rainbow servant (Those weren't it's only tricks). Or was the dread necro something else?
Yes I have NI spell slots I took master of shaping and Mastery of Counterspelling and iirc the build your thinking of is the rainbow warsnake or paladin of sorrow

[OracleofSilence]

Just pointing out, the Rainbow Warsnake is NOT more powerful then the twice betrayer. But all points aside, Unname is SR yes, so that may be an issue. Also, be careful. The Twice betrayer is much better at melee combat then you, so if it becomes a punching match, he very well may win.

[Red_Dog]

=>Randomguy

Can Twice-Betrayer stop disjunctions?O_o

If no, that would be my chief guess. Try boosting initiative as high as possible[thru divination perhaps?] and Disjunction him/her until he is wearing nothing but his/her socks.

That's to be honest my biggest suggestion. Without the buffs/items, and not on his/her turn the Twice Betrayer should fall pray to one of your other party members.

[Harry]

=>Randomguy

Can Twice-Betrayer stop disjunctions?O_o

If no, that would be my chief guess. Try boosting initiative as high as possible[thru divination perhaps?] and Disjunction him/her until he is wearing nothing but his/her socks.

That's to be honest my biggest suggestion. Without the buffs/items, and not on his/her turn the Twice Betrayer should fall pray to one of your other party members. I am fighting him solo and oracleofsilence how does he have spell resistance?

[tyckspoon]

Disjunction of the first round to dispel all his buffs with no chance of failure.
Get a contingency or cast celerity when he tries to disjoin you.
Hit him with dimensional anchor or dimension lock as soon as you can to stop him from teleporting or escaping.

Odd... When I looked up twice betrayer of shar it was a cleric build, but I distinctly recall it being a much more powerful dread necromancer build with rainbow servant (Those weren't it's only tricks). Or was the dread necro something else?

The key trait of the Twice Betrayer is being able to walk around comfortably inside an AMF. It's one of the few things in the game that actually does offer a defense against Disjunction (the other ones mostly being based around reactive counterspell abilities to deny it when somebody tries to cast it.) You can do that with a number of build stubs- it only really *requires* 3 levels of Cleric to take Initiate of Mystra. The more defensively-minded versions travel in multiple AMFs, which makes it very difficult to pierce with Disjunction- you have to be able to take down 4-6 AMFs in one go, which I think is only really feasible with hefty (ab)use of Circle Magic to do something like Maximize Time Stop -> 5 Twin Delayed CL 40 Disjunctions.


I was thinking what if I cast irresistible unname with blooded metamagic does he have any defense against unname p.s I am not using the errata for irresistible spell

Several:
It requires you to research and use his truename as part of casting. This is a difficult task that will take you several months just to do (need 1 week per successful research, takes 1/2 his HD in successes) and even when you do succeed you need to hit a DC ~40-50 Truespeech check to use it (DC 15 + [2xHD] +4 for using a personal truename.)
It doesn't pierce his AMF(s).
It's a Fortitude save that doesn't affect objects, so Construct or Undead type immunities make you immune to it. (un-errata'd Irresistible Spell may get around this by removing the save altogether, but that's Ask Your DM territory.)

[Harry]

The key trait of the Twice Betrayer is being able to walk around comfortably inside an AMF. It's one of the few things in the game that actually does offer a defense against Disjunction (the other ones mostly being based around reactive counterspell abilities to deny it when somebody tries to cast it.) You can do that with a number of build stubs- it only really *requires* 3 levels of Cleric to take Initiate of Mystra. The more defensively-minded versions travel in multiple AMFs, which makes it very difficult to pierce with Disjunction- you have to be able to take down 4-6 AMFs in one go, which I think is only really feasible with hefty (ab)use of Circle Magic to do something like Maximize Time Stop -> 5 Twin Delayed CL 40 Disjunctions.



Several:
It requires you to research and use his truename as part of casting. This is a difficult task that will take you several months just to do (need 1 week per successful research, takes 1/2 his HD in successes) and even when you do succeed you need to hit a DC ~40-50 Truespeech check to use it (DC 15 + [2xHD] +4 for using a personal truename.)
It doesn't pierce his AMF(s).
It's a Fortitude save that doesn't affect objects, so Construct or Undead type immunities make you immune to it. (un-errata'd Irresistible Spell may get around this by removing the save altogether, but that's Ask Your DM territory.)

Well i guess unname is off the table so stay out of melee range and cast Twined split empowered maximized ocular searing orb of fire but how do I get past beastland ferocity and delay death?

[Red_Dog]

Several:
It requires you to research and use his truename as part of casting. This is a difficult task that will take you several months just to do (need 1 week per successful research, takes 1/2 his HD in successes) and even when you do succeed you need to hit a DC ~40-50 Truespeech check to use it (DC 15 + [2xHD] +4 for using a personal truename.)
It doesn't pierce his AMF(s).

Yeah... I looked up the spell. I am not sure WHY WotC worded it this way *rolleyes*, considering that you shouldn't be targeting the character, but his truename which should be fairly "independent" concept. Maybe it would allow a fort save, but should not be stopped by AMFs. Oh Well, I guess that option is of the table.
I mean the concept of Unname is up there with wish, its somewhat cosmic. Description of AMFs specifies that it shouldn't stop those types of events. But I guess they mean it in terms of a point of origin of the event[If a deity originates it, it shouldn't be stopped kind of deal].

Perhaps, attempt to abuse Reaving Dispel? Playing a ready action game with Reaving anything he tries, perhaps Reaving a Wish? Its a long shot though.

Other than that, I guess there are other simple options such as chaingating during time stop?...

Or maybe boxing him in in quicken prismatic sphere [as far as I know, its not effected by AMFs] and playing a waiting game with Disjunction/Reaving Dispells.

P.S. Dealing with Persistent AMFs is not my area of expertise. Especially when they involve Initiate of Mistya [or whats the name?] which is what Twice betrayer mainly abuses.

[Harry]

Yeah... I looked up the spell. I am not sure WHY WotC worded it this way *rolleyes*, considering that you shouldn't be targeting the character, but his truename which should be fairly "independent" concept. Maybe it would allow a fort save, but should not be stopped by AMFs. Oh Well, I guess that option is of the table.

Perhaps, attempt to abuse Reaving Dispel? Playing a ready action game with Reaving anything he tries, perhaps Reaving a Wish? Its a long shot though.

Other than that, I guess there are other simple options such as chaingating during time stop?...

Or maybe boxing him in in quicken prismatic sphere [as far as I know, its not effected by AMFs] and playing a waiting game with Disjunction/Reaving Dispells.

P.S. Dealing with Persistent AMFs is not my area of expertise. Especially when they involve Initiate of Mistya [or whats the name?] which is what Twice betrayer mainly abuses.
Ok what if i use reaving dispel and invisible irresistible prismatic sphere P.S. the dm already allows me to use The un-errata'd version of irresistible spell

[Red_Dog]

By the By, along side with Unname, there is also Truename Dispel. For all intents and purposes, it is effectively "unname" for Twice-Betrayer as it states that it targets a creature and automatically, without a check, dispels anything you want. The wording is ambiguous AGAIN as its "like dispel magic". IMO this SHOULD go thru any number of AMFs as it should flat out dispel all. However I am no sure if its the way it works.

If it works this way, its on to "how to condense personal truename search into 1 round?". And I have no clue how to answer THAT =\

If it doesn't we are back to Prismatic Sphere + Reaving Dispel wish/miracle fishing heh.

[Harry]

By the By, along side with Unname, there is also Truename Dispel. For all intents and purposes, it is effectively "unname" for Twice-Betrayer as it states that it targets a creature and automatically, without a check, dispels anything you want. The wording is ambiguous AGAIN as its "like dispel magic". IMO this SHOULD go thru any number of AMFs as it should flat out dispel all. However I am no sure if its the way it works.

If it works this way, its on to "how to condense personal truename search into 1 round?". And I have no clue how to answer THAT =\

If it doesn't we are back to Prismatic Sphere + Reaving Dispel wish/miracle fishing heh.
I could cast maximized time stop Then cast genesis make the plane something like 1000 years in the genesis plane equals 1 round in the material plane that should be more then enough time to research his truename then i plane shift back he should still be in time stop I then cast quickened truename dispel then i cast delayed irresistible unname Does this make sense? And will this work?

[Red_Dog]

I could cast maximized time stop Then cast genesis make the plane something like 1000 years in the genesis plane equals 1 round in the material plane that should be more then enough time to research his truename then i plane shift back he should still be in time stop I then cast quickened truename dispel then i wait until time stop is over then cast irresistible unname Does this make sense? And will this work?

According to SRD, Genesis takes a week to cast. Word of Genesis takes 6days and DC50 Truespeak. Perhaps plane-shifting on obscure plane that already has slow time ratio?

[Harry]

According to SRD, Genesis takes a week to cast. Word of Genesis takes 6days and DC50 Truespeak. Perhaps plane-shifting on obscure plane that already has slow time ratio?

Good point what planes have slow time radios? P.S. the campign I am playing in allows all settings and planes so it doesn't matter what book the plane comes from

[Harry]

Ok found one the far realm don't know how I forgot about it:smallredface: ok well i think I have my plan thanks everyone:smallsmile:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ok found one the far realm don't know how I forgot about it:smallredface: ok well i think I have my plan thanks everyone:smallsmile:

I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that planeshifting to the Far Realms has more than their own share of danger to it.

[Harry]

I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that planeshifting to the Far Realms has more than their own share of danger to it.

Cound't I just cast forcecage then permanency while I am In it then cast mind blank and I am save besides I am epic level its not that dangerous right?:smalleek:

[Battleship789]

My dm said tomorrow I'll be fighting the twice betrayer of shar m y build is wizard 6/incatnatrix 10/hathran 1/archmage 2/tainted scholar 1/cleric 3 I took the Initiate of Mystra feat does anyone have any tactics that I could use to defeat it?

First, get a fixed ruling from your DM on whether entering an antimagic field suppresses all Initiate of Mystra cast spells (ex: I have a Persisted Divine Power cast at the beginning of the day, then cast a Persisted Antimagic Field. I then add normal buffs that don't require DMM, like Magic Vestment. If I enter another Antimagic Field, are my spells suppressed [1], not suppressed [2], or do I have to make a CL check as per Initiate of Mystra [3]?) IIRC, this was never clarified and the wording of the feat is rather ambiguous on this point. :smallannoyed:

Some ideas (a lot of them will probably get shot down by those with more system mastery than I):

If [1], snag the Binding Chain of Fate spell from Waterdeep. Boost your CL (to overcome SR and break through the TBoS's battery of Antimagic Fields with Initiate of Mystra/make it incredibly hard for the TBoS to cast in the Antimagic Field created by BCoF) and Save DCs (Sadly, the spell is Will: negates) as high as possible. If the TBoS fails the save and you overcome all necessary checks, laugh. If not, move to other options.

If [2] and possibly [3], like others have said, spam incredibly high CL Disjunctions (to remove the AMFs) followed by a heavily metamagiced Orb spell once the Delay Death + Beastland (sp?) Ferocity have been removed by Disjunctions. This is the main weakness of the Twice Betrayer and it still is.

Use the Metamagic Effect ability of the Incatatrix to Sculpt Spell the TBoS's AMFs so they don't cover the TBoS (Preferably inside a metamagiced Time Stop do one doesn't get melee'd to death.) Proceed to Disjunction other buffs away and finish with suitably metamagiced damage spells/BCoF/Enervations/Stat Reducers.

(This was probably fixed, and should be disregarded unless someone who has looked up TBoS fairly recently finds it doable.) IIRC, the persisted AMFs will wear off one at a time and the TBoS cannot recast them while still inside the AMFs (at least, not at nearly as high of a CL as items won't work, and they won't be persisted, because DMM is a Su ability and is not covered under Initiate of Mystra). If I am remembering that correctly (quite possibly this was changed/fixed from the OLD WotC thread, its been a while), ready an action to cast a Disjunction when the last AMF falls. Then Greater Celerity metamagiced Orbs/BCoF to finish it off.

For stupidity/cheese, take Martial Study x2 (Some Iron Heart maneuver, then Iron Heart Surge), move into the AMF and IHS it/the TBoS/the Sun/the DM/etc., then Belt of Battle and Greater Celerity into Disjunctions and Orbs.

Remember, no DMM shenanigans can be used by the TBoS after the AMF is up because DMM is a divine feat and is thus a Su ability and nullified by AMF (and this cannot be gotten around with Initiate of Mystra. Extraordinary Spell Aim on the other hand...)

[Tvtyrant]

Is there a reason you cannot simply hit them with a maximized empowered twin spelled orb of etc and deliver the mail?

[Menteith]

Is there a reason you cannot simply hit them with a maximized empowered twin spelled orb of etc and deliver the mail?

Persisted Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity give immunity to damage. Well, not straight immunity, but they don't die from any amount of damage, or suffer any other effects.

[Battleship789]

Is there a reason you cannot simply hit them with a maximized empowered twin spelled orb of etc and bring home the mail?

The TBoS persists both Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity, which makes hp damage worthless. Delay Death allows one to survive at and below -10 hp, Beastland Ferocity allows one to continue making actions as normal at 0 and negative hp. (This tactic is debatable, as Beastland Ferocity mentions the 0 hp to -9 hp range but makes no mention of what would happen if you didn't die at -10 hp, iirc.)

Edit: ...Swordsages...

[Hirax]

If you can get access to circle magic and persisted consumptive field:

1: Hold enough holy or unholy arrows as appropriate for your alignment to give you enough negative levels so that you only have 1 HD, and a CL of 1. In fact, because of your cleric levels, you might be able to get your CL all the way to 0.

2: While your CL is 0, use circle magic to boost your CL to 40. Drop the holy/unholy arrows to add back your other 20 or so caster levels.

3: Using a bead of karma, the create magic tattoo spell, the +CL ioun stone, a ring of arcane might, and as many CL boosters as you can muster, here's a good list of them (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level). Cast and persist consumptive field, then feed the consumptive field with animals bags of tricks if necessary.

4: You should now be walking around with a caster level in the 90s, perhaps even 100 or more. Blow the Betrayer's AMFs to hell. Be a chronotyryn as mentioned, use one standard action to disjunction their AMFs, and the other standard action to cast maw of chaos (preferably with a rod of empower).

[Harry]

First, get a fixed ruling from your DM on whether entering an antimagic field suppresses all Initiate of Mystra cast spells (ex: I have a Persisted Divine Power cast at the beginning of the day, then cast a Persisted Antimagic Field. I then add normal buffs that don't require DMM, like Magic Vestment. If I enter another Antimagic Field, are my spells suppressed [1], not suppressed [2], or do I have to make a CL check as per Initiate of Mystra [3]?) IIRC, this was never clarified and the wording of the feat is rather ambiguous on this point. :smallannoyed:

Some ideas (a lot of them will probably get shot down by those with more system mastery than I):

If [1], snag the Binding Chain of Fate spell from Waterdeep. Boost your CL (to overcome SR and break through the TBoS's battery of Antimagic Fields with Initiate of Mystra/make it incredibly hard for the TBoS to cast in the Antimagic Field created by BCoF) and Save DCs (Sadly, the spell is Will: negates) as high as possible. If the TBoS fails the save and you overcome all necessary checks, laugh. If not, move to other options.

If [2] and possibly [3], like others have said, spam incredibly high CL Disjunctions (to remove the AMFs) followed by a heavily metamagiced Orb spell once the Delay Death + Beastland (sp?) Ferocity have been removed by Disjunctions. This is the main weakness of the Twice Betrayer and it still is.

Use the Metamagic Effect ability of the Incatatrix to Sculpt Spell the TBoS's AMFs so they don't cover the TBoS (Preferably inside a metamagiced Time Stop do one doesn't get melee'd to death.) Proceed to Disjunction other buffs away and finish with suitably metamagiced damage spells/BCoF/Enervations/Stat Reducers.

(This was probably fixed, and should be disregarded unless someone who has looked up TBoS fairly recently finds it doable.) IIRC, the persisted AMFs will wear off one at a time and the TBoS cannot recast them while still inside the AMFs (at least, not at nearly as high of a CL as items won't work, and they won't be persisted, because DMM is a Su ability and is not covered under Initiate of Mystra). If I am remembering that correctly (quite possibly this was changed/fixed from the OLD WotC thread, its been a while), ready an action to cast a Disjunction when the last AMF falls. Then Greater Celerity metamagiced Orbs/BCoF to finish it off.

For stupidity/cheese, take Martial Study x2 (Some Iron Heart maneuver, then Iron Heart Surge), move into the AMF and IHS it/the TBoS/the Sun/the DM/etc., then Belt of Battle and Greater Celerity into Disjunctions and Orbs.

Remember, no DMM shenanigans can be used by the TBoS after the AMF is up because DMM is a divine feat and is thus a Su ability and nullified by AMF (and this cannot be gotten around with Initiate of Mystra. Extraordinary Spell Aim on the other hand...)

A few things first I asked my dm earlier he says we will not keep our buffs if we go in to a new AMF we have to recast them in the AMF to the spell a irresistible delayed binding chain of fate sounds good :smallbiggrin: and I am a incantatrix can't I steal the twice betrayers delay death ?:smallconfused:

[Battleship789]

A few things first I asked my dm earlier he says we will not keep our buffs if we go in to a new AMF we have to recast them in the AMF to the spell a irresistible delayed binding chain of fate sounds good :smallbiggrin: and I am a incantatrix can't I steal the twice betrayers delay death ?:smallconfused:

That is quite nice. :smallbiggrin:

As for your question: no, I don't think so. Snatch Spell can only take control of effects that do not depend on concentration but still rely/respond to the caster's control. So, the Holy Star spell (SpC) is a valid target, as it depends on the caster to change it's mode. However, Delay Death would not qualify as Delay Death requires no input from the caster after it is cast. Its effect does not require or respond to the caster.

Also, I had forgotten about this: a Disintegrate spell, if it reduces the target to -10 hp or less, will still kill something under persisted Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity.

[Harry]

That is quite nice. :smallbiggrin:

As for your question: no, I don't think so. Snatch Spell can only take control of effects that do not depend on concentration but still rely/respond to the caster's control. So, the Holy Star spell (SpC) is a valid target, as it depends on the caster to change it's mode. However, Delay Death would not qualify as Delay Death requires no input from the caster after it is cast. Its effect does not require or respond to the caster.

Also, I had forgotten about this: a Disintegrate spell, if it reduces the target to -10 hp or less, will still kill something under persisted Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity.
Ok so either disintegrate or reaving dispel GREAT! I am going to write down my plan and memorize it thanks everyone! Again! :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

[Harry]

Ok guys I am off to go play in the campaign I'll be back in a hour or 2 or 3 to say if I won or not wish me luck everyone:smallsmile:

[Battleship789]

Ok guys I am off to go play in the campaign I'll be back in a hour or 2 or 3 to say if I won or not wish me luck everyone:smallsmile:

Good luck! :smallbiggrin: Do tell all!

[Harry]

Hi everyone i am back and... I WON :smallsmile: ...... Just a little to easy And here's how it happend First i won initiative then i cast maximized time stop then i cast plane shift i choose the far realm i researched his truename i plane shifted back then i casted unname dispel then i cast delayed irresistible unname Timestop ended he got erased from time and space forever Then my friends and the dm freaked out because I beat him to easily it was funny:smallsmile: dm: but but you can't kill the twice betrayer me:but I just did. Then the campaign went on. well that was it. I thought it would be more....... exciting but it was still fun:smallsmile:

[Red_Dog]

Hi everyone i am back and... I WON :smallsmile: ...... Just a little to easy And here's how it happend First i won initiative then i cast maximized time stop then i cast plane shift i choose the far realm i researched his truename i plane shifted back then i casted unname dispel then i cast delayed irresistible unname Timestop ended he got erased from time and space forever Then my friends and the dm freaked out because I beat him to easily it was funny:smallsmile: dm: but but you can't kill the twice betrayer me:but I just did. Then the campaign went on. well that was it. I thought it would be more....... exciting but it was still fun:smallsmile:

Congrats! ^^ I'm glad you won as I loath DMM abuse! ^^ But I digress, cool story ^^ and don't be upset that you won to easily. Wizards duals are a cosmic rocket tag. The high the level, the worst it gets! ^^ Well, congrats, you've erased Twice betrayer from existence and from fabric of space. ^^ To be sure I would track down and erase all of his followers if any so they won't rename him ^^

[Harry]

Congrats! ^^ I'm glad you won as I loath DMM abuse! ^^ But I digress, cool story ^^ and don't be upset that you won to easily. Wizards duals are a cosmic rocket tag. The high the level, the worst it gets! ^^ Well, congrats, you've erased Twice betrayer from existence and from fabric of space. ^^ To be sure I would track down and erase all of his followers if any so they won't rename him ^^
Thanks and iirc unname erases everyone's memories of him except the caster and the gods and thanks for telling me about truename dispel I will be using it often considering i won a artifact that tells me everyone's truename:smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Twice Betrayer? What's this 'Twice Betrayer'?

It sounds vaguely familiar, yet I can't place it. Almost as if they got erased from space/time....

Nicely done, sir!

[Harry]

Twice Betrayer? What's this 'Twice Betrayer'?

It sounds vaguely familiar, yet I can't place it. Almost as if they got erased from space/time....

Nicely done, sir!

Lol thanks and now that I think about it I don't know either :smallbiggrin:

[Eisenfavl]

Does Unname Dispel destroy all items on the person? Because the TWoS has contingency, I believe a similar (possibly pact-ish) spell, and an arbitrary number of 'craft contingent spell' antimagic fields and buff replacements.
Oh wait, destroying items wouldn't matter because the new fields come up 'preceding' the action and yet are not effected by it. Essentially your plan doesn't work because you need to perform the same actions you used an arbitrary number of time while the twice betrayer enter full tier 1 mode on you: the vast majority of their level 8+ slots are still free, you know.

[Harry]

Does Unname Dispel destroy all items on the person? Because the TWoS has contingency, I believe a similar (possibly pact-ish) spell, and an arbitrary number of 'craft contingent spell' antimagic fields and buff replacements.
Oh wait, destroying items wouldn't matter because the new fields come up 'preceding' the action and yet are not effected by it. Essentially your plan doesn't work because you need to perform the same actions you used an arbitrary number of time while the twice betrayer enter full tier 1 mode on you: the vast majority of their level 8+ slots are still free, you know.

What spell protects you from getting your truename erased? Also the fight already happen I already won And the twice betrayer doesn't have the Craft Contingent Spell feat

[Eisenfavl]

1. Antimagic field stops it.
2. That 'fight' wasn't with the TBoS, it was with a poor replica your DM made.
2a. Similarly, this means that you didn't beat the TBoS, you beat what the DM made.
3. The TBoS does have craft contingent spell. It is the most important method which they use to keep their divinely metamagic'd spells up after a disjunction.

I'm sorry, but ignoring the second most important part of the Twice-Betrayer of Shar concept really doesn't equate to beating it. You beat a generic cleric of mystra, but the TBoS hinges around divinely persisting a ridiculous number of defensive buffs, including antimagic field, with contingent backups of all the buffs.

[Red_Dog]

1. Antimagic field stops it.
2. That 'fight' wasn't with the TBoS, it was with a poor replica your DM made.
2a. Similarly, this means that you didn't beat the TBoS, you beat what the DM made.
3. The TBoS does have craft contingent spell. It is the most important method which they use to keep their divinely metamagic'd spells up after a disjunction.

I'm sorry, but ignoring the second most important part of the Twice-Betrayer of Shar concept really doesn't equate to beating it. You beat a generic cleric of mystra, but the TBoS hinges around divinely persisting a ridiculous number of defensive buffs, including antimagic field, with contingent backups of all the buffs.

Here is the original Twice Betrayer, posted by her/his creator => LordofProcrastination
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar
I do not see Craft Contingency spell in his build.

P.S. Besides, shouldn't truename Dispel dispel any and all magical effects that caster of Truename dispel chooses?

[Acanous]

oh, leave the poor boy alone. His DM likely copypasta'd the TBoS and didn't really know how to abuse it. IIRC you can only have one contingeant spell on you at a time, he might have made it "Greater Dispel Magic" in case of Disjunction (A reasonably fair precaution) which wouldn't have triggered in this case.

[Harry]

1. Antimagic field stops it.
2. That 'fight' wasn't with the TBoS, it was with a poor replica your DM made.
2a. Similarly, this means that you didn't beat the TBoS, you beat what the DM made.
3. The TBoS does have craft contingent spell. It is the most important method which they use to keep their divinely metamagic'd spells up after a disjunction.

I'm sorry, but ignoring the second most important part of the Twice-Betrayer of Shar concept really doesn't equate to beating it. You beat a generic cleric of mystra, but the TBoS hinges around divinely persisting a ridiculous number of defensive buffs, including antimagic field, with contingent backups of all the buffs.

The funny part is antimagic field doesn't block because i have initiate of mystra and he doesn't have craft contingent so your argument is wrong and fails

[Eisenfavl]

Red_Dog, the original TBoS build is ancient. LoP made like, an entire new build something like over a year ago; the original was made shortly after Players Guide to Faerun was released. Craft contingent spell has no limits to the number which can be in effect, and is a corner stone of the (new) build, and truly any high tier high op defensively buffing build.

The caster level of the TBoS after considering all buffs came out to be something near ~50. Your build doesn't have an visible clvl boosting except perhaps archmage, so you are rolling 1d20 + 17-19 vs a DC of ~61.

Travelling to the far realm requites you to either A. get past an Ao powered 'elder evil' (not in the newer sense of the word, rather in the sense of the overdeities that aboleths pay tithe 'worship' to) or B. Travel to the start of time before it took up its eternal vigil.
Now, B is totally possible and reasonable, considering you are a tier 0 with ninth level spells, so we'll leave this.

Using the unfixed version of officially errata'd third party material does somewhat jar my argument, because I am used to 3.5, but IIRC irresistible spell just made there no save pre-errata. You still have range. It can still be countered. And it would be. The order of actions might be something like this:
You win initiative. Contingent celerity kick in for the TBoS. You cast celerity. Their next celerity kicks in. They Disjunction you from a spell mantle activated contingent spell, it is divinely twinned. Their next celerity kicks in. They fire a bow with an arrow with antimagic field on it 4 times at you. With another celerity, they drop a divinely twinned, extended, repeated Binding Chain of Fate on you. They kill the already slowly dying you.

Now, assuming a 'passive' TBoS who takes absolutely no actions and doesn't have automated defences which kill you, you will be closer to the challenge I was trying out a while ago. From my somewhat incomplete notes on their defences, the TBoS is shapechanged into a Zodar, so that is Unname immunity. You'd need to essentially spam untargeted AMF shattering dispels (read: Disjunction) a truly arbitrary number of times (multiple thousands, at least), WITH ridiculously high DC s and caster levels, and even that has a chance of failure. The irresistible spell takes care if the DC s, but you still need the quantity and the caster level, with sufficient quantity overriding the need for clvl's.
I had to use an idiot crusader / RKV advanced beholder mage who abused the omnicifier trick and illumium aeshkrau (or whatever that str to bonus spell sigil was) with pain mastery to cast an aleph null disjuctions via celerity and WRT's, prior to attacking them for aleph one damage.

A more realistic interpretation of your action line would be:
Try to truename dispel, fail Clvl check.
Do something, e.g. buff Clvl, to break through AMF's.
Use truename dispel again, failing due to Zodar invulnerability.
Try Unname, fail due to invulnerability.

You successfully killed the ancient version of the TBoS using pre-errata third party material. However, while rather impressive, that is hardly thread worthy when something like 20 people did it themselves without the third party (on par with using imbalanced homebrew) in that thread. (Though that being said, only 1/5 of those builds worked, so credit where its due.)

You did not, however, kill the true TBoS, nor were you using 3.5 rules, nor were you facing an active opponent as opposed to a braindead shell.

[kardar233]

Can anyone link me the updated Twice Betrayer? I only know the one here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar), and the updates in the later posts.

Also: as noted in that thread, Dweomer of Transference means you lose. But that's a pile of cheese I won't even touch.

[Harry]

Red_Dog, the original TBoS build is ancient. LoP made like, an entire new build something like over a year ago; the original was made shortly after Players Guide to Faerun was released. Craft contingent spell has no limits to the number which can be in effect, and is a corner stone of the (new) build, and truly any high tier high op defensively buffing build.

The caster level of the TBoS after considering all buffs came out to be something near ~50. Your build doesn't have an visible clvl boosting except perhaps archmage, so you are rolling 1d20 + 17-19 vs a DC of ~61.

Travelling to the far realm requites you to either A. get past an Ao powered 'elder evil' (not in the newer sense of the word, rather in the sense of the overdeities that aboleths pay tithe 'worship' to) or B. Travel to the start of time before it took up its eternal vigil.
Now, B is totally possible and reasonable, considering you are a tier 0 with ninth level spells, so we'll leave this.

Using the unfixed version of officially errata'd third party material does somewhat jar my argument, because I am used to 3.5, but IIRC irresistible spell just made there no save pre-errata. You still have range. It can still be countered. And it would be. The order of actions might be something like this:
You win initiative. Contingent celerity kick in for the TBoS. You cast celerity. Their next celerity kicks in. They Disjunction you from a spell mantle activated contingent spell, it is divinely twinned. Their next celerity kicks in. They fire a bow with an arrow with antimagic field on it 4 times at you. With another celerity, they drop a divinely twinned, extended, repeated Binding Chain of Fate on you. They kill the already slowly dying you.

Now, assuming a 'passive' TBoS who takes absolutely no actions and doesn't have automated defences which kill you, you will be closer to the challenge I was trying out a while ago. From my somewhat incomplete notes on their defences, the TBoS is shapechanged into a Zodar, so that is Unname immunity. You'd need to essentially spam untargeted AMF shattering dispels (read: Disjunction) a truly arbitrary number of times (multiple thousands, at least), WITH ridiculously high DC s and caster levels, and even that has a chance of failure. The irresistible spell takes care if the DC s, but you still need the quantity and the caster level, with sufficient quantity overriding the need for clvl's.
I had to use an idiot crusader / RKV advanced beholder mage who abused the omnicifier trick and illumium aeshkrau (or whatever that str to bonus spell sigil was) with pain mastery to cast an aleph null disjuctions via celerity and WRT's, prior to attacking them for aleph one damage.

A more realistic interpretation of your action line would be:
Try to truename dispel, fail Clvl check.
Do something, e.g. buff Clvl, to break through AMF's.
Use truename dispel again, failing due to Zodar invulnerability.
Try Unname, fail due to invulnerability.

You successfully killed the ancient version of the TBoS using pre-errata third party material. However, while rather impressive, that is hardly thread worthy when something like 20 people did it themselves without the third party (on par with using imbalanced homebrew) in that thread. (Though that being said, only 1/5 of those builds worked, so credit where its due.)

You did not, however, kill the true TBoS, nor were you using 3.5 rules, nor were you facing an active opponent as opposed to a braindead shell.

Agree to disagree ?

[Myou]

Where is Irresistible Spell from?

[Eisenfavl]

Can anyone link me the updated Twice Betrayer? I only know the one here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar), and the updates in the later posts.

Also: as noted in that thread, Dweomer of Transference means you lose. But that's a pile of cheese I won't even touch.
I was of the understanding that Dweomer only effected the spells being cast by the caster of Dweomer, thus defeating the TBoS's defence and not significantly protecting them, hence why I left it out.


Agree to disagree ?
I don't really see what there is to disagree about. You killed the old TBoS using pre-errata third party material, this much is by necessity in agreement.
You might not agree that you couldn't beat the newer version, but considering your entire build lost to spell turning, I very much doubt you could.
I might be able to scavenge up enough notes to try and recreate the newer build, but I don't have a direct copy of it.


Where is Irresistible Spell from?
Kingdoms of Kalamar, or however you spell it. The original, pre-errata one from this thread is 4 level adjustment on spell, and it loses its saving throw. Ergo, a Irresistible Finger of Death is no save just die for those vulnerable to death effects.

[Myou]

Kingdoms of Kalamar, or however you spell it. The original, pre-errata one from this thread is 4 level adjustment on spell, and it loses its saving throw. Ergo, a Irresistible Finger of Death is no save just die for those vulnerable to death effects.

Huh, was that an official book? I looked it up and it wasn't clear if it was considered 3rd party or an official source. :smallconfused:

[Eisenfavl]

Huh, was that an official book? I looked it up and it wasn't clear if it was considered 3rd party or an official source. :smallconfused:

Third party. Kingdoms of Kalamar claims to be official, but it is third party. The errata'd version of the meta magic adds 10 to the DC, which ruins the best part about the older metamagic, i.e. the fact that they can't natural 20 it.

[Battleship789]

Red_Dog, the original TBoS build is ancient. LoP made like, an entire new build something like over a year ago; the original was made shortly after Players Guide to Faerun was released. Craft contingent spell has no limits to the number which can be in effect, and is a corner stone of the (new) build, and truly any high tier high op defensively buffing build.

The caster level of the TBoS after considering all buffs came out to be something near ~50. Your build doesn't have an visible clvl boosting except perhaps archmage, so you are rolling 1d20 + 17-19 vs a DC of ~61.

Travelling to the far realm requites you to either A. get past an Ao powered 'elder evil' (not in the newer sense of the word, rather in the sense of the overdeities that aboleths pay tithe 'worship' to) or B. Travel to the start of time before it took up its eternal vigil.
Now, B is totally possible and reasonable, considering you are a tier 0 with ninth level spells, so we'll leave this.

Using the unfixed version of officially errata'd third party material does somewhat jar my argument, because I am used to 3.5, but IIRC irresistible spell just made there no save pre-errata. You still have range. It can still be countered. And it would be. The order of actions might be something like this:
You win initiative. Contingent celerity kick in for the TBoS. You cast celerity. Their next celerity kicks in. They Disjunction you from a spell mantle activated contingent spell, it is divinely twinned. Their next celerity kicks in. They fire a bow with an arrow with antimagic field on it 4 times at you. With another celerity, they drop a divinely twinned, extended, repeated Binding Chain of Fate on you. They kill the already slowly dying you.

Now, assuming a 'passive' TBoS who takes absolutely no actions and doesn't have automated defences which kill you, you will be closer to the challenge I was trying out a while ago. From my somewhat incomplete notes on their defences, the TBoS is shapechanged into a Zodar, so that is Unname immunity. You'd need to essentially spam untargeted AMF shattering dispels (read: Disjunction) a truly arbitrary number of times (multiple thousands, at least), WITH ridiculously high DC s and caster levels, and even that has a chance of failure. The irresistible spell takes care if the DC s, but you still need the quantity and the caster level, with sufficient quantity overriding the need for clvl's.
I had to use an idiot crusader / RKV advanced beholder mage who abused the omnicifier trick and illumium aeshkrau (or whatever that str to bonus spell sigil was) with pain mastery to cast an aleph null disjuctions via celerity and WRT's, prior to attacking them for aleph one damage.

A more realistic interpretation of your action line would be:
Try to truename dispel, fail Clvl check.
Do something, e.g. buff Clvl, to break through AMF's.
Use truename dispel again, failing due to Zodar invulnerability.
Try Unname, fail due to invulnerability.

You successfully killed the ancient version of the TBoS using pre-errata third party material. However, while rather impressive, that is hardly thread worthy when something like 20 people did it themselves without the third party (on par with using imbalanced homebrew) in that thread. (Though that being said, only 1/5 of those builds worked, so credit where its due.)

You did not, however, kill the true TBoS, nor were you using 3.5 rules, nor were you facing an active opponent as opposed to a braindead shell.

Do you know where said updated version is? Because a lot of the original ideas for the TBoS don't work, especially under Harry's DM's ruling: A spell that is brought into an AMF is suppressed, even if the spell was cast in a different AMF with IoM. Thus, you only get a CL check for casting a new spell in an AMF. (Pre-cast spells are suppressed as usual.)

Another problem for the TBoS is that any spell cast after the first AMF is cast cannot be DMMed because DMM is a Su Ability, and thus negated in an AMF (no CL check to use that.) Thus, no DMM buffs are going to be up (except for one AMF) because if they are DMMed before the AMF is up, they will be supressed by the DMMed AMF, and if they are cast after the AMF is up, they cannot be DMMed.

Contingent spells are limited to a number equal to HD. (Page 139 Complete Arcane) And, according to pg 139 of Complete Arcane, Contigent spells are suppressed in an AMF (again, no CL check to activate them because they cannot be activated while suppressed. If they could activate, then there might be an argument, but they won't.)

Note that most of these are not a problem if the AMF is cast with Extraordinary Spell Aim/Selective Spell. Hilariously, by using ESA/SS, you can't use IoM with said AMF because IoM's ability can only be used while in an AMF, so any spells that have areas that overlap with the AMF will be suppressed (spells like Consumptive Field will only be working outside/inside the AMF radius.)

Unfortunately, this opens up a different can of worms: the AMF will just suppress the spell up until it hits the TBoS, so this isn't the best fix ever created. Something like a Reach-metamagiced Bestow Curse, standard Baleful Transposition, etc. would work normally and not be negated by the AMF. If I am thinking this through correctly, a Disjunction targeted at the TBoS's body would work normally, Disjoining everything, as the AMF isn't protecting the TBoS's body, leaving it open to be hit. This is also important when considering that the items that are on the TBoS aren't in the AMF, so they are disjoined without needing to destroy the AMF.

Hmm...if my line of thought here is true (please correct me if I am wrong), then the original TBoS is basically worse off than a non-IoM super-paranoid Occular-Persist build. And the SS/ESA version is basically the same as a non-IoM build with either the SS/ESA feat added to it (IoM is not necessary for SS/ESA AMF, as stated above.)


Original TBoS (no Selective Spell/Extraordinary Spell Aim AMFs)

Pros: You can cast spells in an AMF, via IoM.

Cons: DMM and other Su abilities are still negated in the AMF and cannot be gotten around with IoM (note that this also applies to Items, and thus, Contingent spells). This means that almost all spells that one would want to be Persisted cannot be Persisted because the +6 spell slot cannot be removed/mitigated. In addition, depending on ruling, entering/casting a new AMF/Dead Magic zone still suppress the spells that were previously casted (and no CL check via IoM because the spell isn't being cast in an AMF, the spell is just inside an AMF). So any spells that were casted before the AMF (so that DMM/Su abilities aren't negated) would just be suppressed when the AMF was cast.

Advantage over a no AMF build: None that I can think of. No Persisted goodies while in the AMF means that the TBoS is rather vulnerable, as most of the best defensive spells are short duration. Combined with the sad reality that no Contingencies can activate because they are suppressed by the field, this version of the TBoS looks rather weak (other than it's small protection against Disjunction via the AMF, which doesn't compensate enough for the lack of Persisted defensive spells.)


Selective Spell/ESA TBoS
Note:(A build that uses this doesn't need the IoM feat to function, because the AMF is around the TBoS and the TBoS isn't actually in the AMF and can thus cast normally. As such, IoM isn't useful in this build beyond the ability to cast in someone else's AMF field/dead magic zone. Still very useful, but not as much as one would hope.)

Pros: DMM and other Su abilities are good to go, and you have at least one (and many more, if you so choose) AMF up around you 24/7.

Cons: A Disjunction centered (or any spell that can effect a target) in the TBoS's body/square will effect the TBoS normally (because the TBoS isn't actually in an AMF), which effectively negates the bonus of having an AMF up (against other casters. The AMF still screws over anyone without a Disjunction), meaning you are back at square one, minus the ESA/SS feat slot.

Advantage over no AMF: this build-stub screws over anyone who needs to get within 20 feet of the character, but is otherwise no better off than a build without the AMF up.