[3.5] Dual shields? wha????

[ojayaba]

So I'm a fan of tanky tanks having huge AC and doing it with lots of HP to boot. Problem is that I want to know if it is possible to dual wield shields of some sort. Possibly 2 large shields or something like that. Heard it mentioned their is a feat that lets you do it, but never been able to find it or even know what it's called.

Little help please as I'm thinking a Dwarven Defender with two spiked shields bashing people all over the place for the win as the party tank.

[veven]

So I'm a fan of tanky tanks having huge AC and doing it with lots of HP to boot. Problem is that I want to know if it is possible to dual wield shields of some sort. Possibly 2 large shields or something like that. Heard it mentioned their is a feat that lets you do it, but never been able to find it or even know what it's called.

Little help please as I'm thinking a Dwarven Defender with two spiked shields bashing people all over the place for the win as the party tank.

I'm not sure about the feat you're looking for but I think you'll be sorely disappointed with Dwarven Defender. Unless you are standing in a 5 foot hallway the Defender utterly fails at what it was intended to do.

You should check out the Crusader in the tome of battle if you're not familiar. There is some good shield related maneuvers, as well as other cool things for tankier builds.

[RMS Oceanic]

It is possible to dual wield shields as weapons, though if you run around with two heavy shields that counts as two one-handed weapons so the TWF penalties will be harsher without Oversized TWF. However there is no feat I'm aware of that will let the Shield Bonuses from both shields stack. I've only seen such things in homebrew.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nope. There are feats that let you dual-wield shields for attacks, but there's no way to get extra AC.

As for Dwarven Defender, do you plan on fighting in a lot of narrow corridors? Because otherwise, the enemies can just walk right past you. "All over the place" doesn't apply, since the main ability requires you to remain in the same position.

[veven]

Sorry, double post. Oh internet, you crazy!

[Keld Denar]

Both grant a shield bonus, and thus wouldn't stack. It wouldn't be much different from weapon + shield, except you have a couple extra options for putting additional armor enhancements.

[Red_Dog]

First=> as far as I am aware, Keld Denar is 100% correct.

Second, as far as I would figure, the ONLY reason to dual-wield shields is if you are feat starved so you could save on Improved Shield Bash. Be mindful, that that feat IS pre-req for a LOT of good shield feats. Oddly enough, it is not a req for Blood Spiked Charger. So perhaps, since Blood Spike Charger eats feats with both hands and probably feet, its a valid option to skip shield bash as one of your shields won't be bashing.

DO keep in mind, that as far as I am aware, you take no TWF penalties if you just Don't attack with one shield ^^.

P.S. Also, I guess there are "stylin points" ^^.

[Darrin]

Nope. There are feats that let you dual-wield shields for attacks, but there's no way to get extra AC.


Not quite. Make one shield out of Riverine (Stormwrack), and you can get half of its bonus as a deflection bonus, which will stack.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I suppose you could try to do something with a spiked shield and a tower shield, to have the option of granting yourself full cover. Little offensive power, but should work well enough for your kind of AC and hp tanking. Might want to do it with Barbarian, Warblade or Crusader, depending on whether you want to boost your damage and tanking with a temporary buff like rage or with maneuvers that can allow your unboosted single shield bash to not totally suck. Fighter, while it does start with Tower Shield proficiency (and therefore might be worth the first level -- or more for Dungeoncrasher), is not a good choice in the long run, providing too few benefits for someone using what is basically sword and board. You really want some way to boost your damage and preferably do things with shields, and feats (as far as I know) can't really cover that all that well.

If you want to go for the Book of Nine Swords stuff, you might want a level or two of Fighter for tower shield proficiency (if you don't already have it) and possibly Dungeoncrasher (I haven't read the maneuvers in a while, but I'm certain there's at least one bullrushing one).

If you want to go with the Barbarian (maybe you're in Core-only, maybe you don't have access to Tome of Battle, maybe you don't like that book, whatever), I'd probably advise taking a level or two of Fighter, again. Because otherwise you're going to have to take flaws to be remotely effective at this style of fighting.

Note: I'm assuming you're okay with "it works about as well as sword and board, maybe with a couple less feats and a couple more armour enhancement slots", rather than "it's an effective fighting style, on par with a two-hander or a well-done two-weapon fighter". AC and hp are not good ways to tank in D&D, technically, because tanking involves not just taking hits but drawing them -- which mundanes have few ways to actually do (and less still that don't require a decent Charisma score, noting that martial classes already need Strength and Constitution, as well as wanting Wisdom and Dexterity for saves, initiative checks and feat prereqs). Also, AC and hp aren't that great at allowing you to tank hits, especially at higher levels. They also don't often protect you from being disabled in other ways than damage. In D&D, the best defense is immunity (which shields don't help with). The next best defense is a good offense (which shields also don't help with).
But I'm assuming you play around these issues, whether or not you knew about them before, due to your stated preferences in the OP.

[Heatwizard]

Don't you get cover from two directions if you have two tower shields? I might be misremembering, but I could swear I heard someone talking about that once.

[Amphetryon]

I always end up bringing this up in these kinds of threads: AFAIK, you'll be dependent upon a DM houserule to allow one of your shields to count as a primary weapon, rather than an off-hand weapon. It's a perfectly reasonable houserule - I can't really fathom a balance-related objection to it - but it's still a houserule.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Don't you get cover from two directions if you have two tower shields? I might be misremembering, but I could swear I heard someone talking about that once.

Tower shield total cover is not directional in the first place.
Also, you can't bash with a tower shield, so you'd need to use unarmed strikes. Which means not using a proper, enchantable weapon (shield spikes totally count). Ways to get unarmed strikes up to usable typically come with a bunch of "only when unarmoured and without shield" stuff that you can't benefit from. It's already disallowing a two-handed weapon and giving a -2 to attack rolls for using a tower shield, offense is low enough with a weapon.

[ojayaba]

sorry for the delayed response, so regarding ToB, its been banned for some unknown reason :P
looking to use large shields so i can keep feats streamlined, and avoid the penalties for tower shields.
what/where is Dungeoncrasher?

so, with this DM i'll have 5 feats at 1st with 2 flaws and 1st level as fighter. riverine was mentioned as a material for a shield as makes half the ac delfection.
given that i would be a dwarf as i do plan to go DD on my 8th or 9th level because pre reqs are BAB +7 and some feats and lawful.

any thoughts or suggestions how i get 10 levels, high AC, high HP high Con.
Ref save are really my biggest fear as steadfast determination covers will, Con covers fort, nothing covers Ref but dex :(

[Mathias1313]

Pretty sure there is a forgoten realms PRC for dwarves that allows double shield use and the AC stacks, can remember what the name was tho.

[ojayaba]

Pretty sure there is a forgoten realms PRC for dwarves that allows double shield use and the AC stacks, can remember what the name was tho.

dont suppose you remember the book do you then?

[Red_Dog]

Not quite. Make one shield out of Riverine (Stormwrack), and you can get half of its bonus as a deflection bonus, which will stack.

Clever..... If I was DMing, I would throw something very heavy at you... But you are right it seems! ^^ I think this is actually a way to stack AC from shields ^^

[Telonius]

I'm not sure about the feat you're looking for but I think you'll be sorely disappointed with Dwarven Defender. Unless you are standing in a 5 foot hallway the Defender utterly fails at what it was intended to do.

In Core, it's not terrible. That's not saying all that much, and it still fails at what it's "supposed" to do; the signature ability is kind of useless. But Uncanny Dodge, good Will saves, Spot Listen and Sense Motive as class skills, and a d12 hit die are better than yet another Fighter feat.

[Chained Birds]

Hmm. :smallconfused:

Wear armor and place an armor spike on it.

Get two tower shields and hold them in each hand (One must be made out of Riverine)

Spend every battle chest-bumping enemies to death with your armor spike while covering 2 different sides with your tower shields. If you took Improved Unarmed Strike, Headbutt them in conjunction with your armor spike if you have multiple attacks.

Does it actually fair well in combat? Probably not.

Is it awesome/hilarious to see in action? Of course! :smallbiggrin:

[ojayaba]

i might just be looking at tank wrong here...
my party seems to think that 2 shields is the biggest waste of timje and effort ever well i think it would be kind of fun/funny to shield walk my way up the field well slapping people in the face with my shields and have every one else fully covered then jumping out and blam! BBEG toast or hurt because my AC/HP was enough to not die after many tries to kill me off when every one else will prob be one shots or two shots best...

[prufock]

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle) gives you a +2 to your shield bonus if you and an adjacent ally are both using a shield. Not really what you're looking for, but it might help.

If your second shield is a light shield you can get Phalanx Fighting (HoB also, requires Shield Wall), to get a +1 to AC. The two feats have decent synergy. Pretty steep feat cost just for a +1 if you aren't fighting in formation, though.

Formation Expert (Complete Warrior) also gives you a +1 to AC if adjacent allies are using shields.

But to do exactly what you're asking, I'm coming up empty.

[Set]

There are some 3rd party feats that allow double shielding in the Green Ronin book Plot & Poison.

[Hiro Protagonest]

i might just be looking at tank wrong here...
Yes. Yes you are. For one, you're using the word "tank" to describe your role. This isn't World of Warcraft. There is no aggro mechanic.

my party seems to think that 2 shields is the biggest waste of timje and effort ever well i think it would be kind of fun/funny to shield walk my way up the field well slapping people in the face with my shields and have every one else fully covered then jumping out and blam! BBEG toast or hurt because my AC/HP was enough to not die after many tries to kill me off when every one else will prob be one shots or two shots best...

Here's a tip. D12 and a couple extra points of AC won't stop you from being one-shotted or two-shotted. And even in low-op where you can survive, if everyone else is dead, who are you tanking for?

[prufock]

Not sure if this was pointed out already as well, but there are some benefits to using 2 shields if you really want to go with the concept.

- At low levels, you don't need the Improved Shield Bash feat. You bash with one shield, losing your shield bonus to AC with that shield, but you still have your shield bonus from your other shield. Still works at later levels (however, Improved Shield Bash is required for some of the best shield use feats later on), but not exactly thta useful.

- Shields count as weapons, so you can get the Defending enchantment, pump the bonus on as high as you can, and apply that bonuses to AC instead of attack and damage. Nothing you can't do with any other weapon, of course.

[ojayaba]

Yes. Yes you are. For one, you're using the word "tank" to describe your role. This isn't World of Warcraft. There is no aggro mechanic.

goad feat...
and for the record, i have never and will never play WoW :D

[Darrin]

Clever..... If I was DMing, I would throw something very heavy at you... But you are right it seems! ^^ I think this is actually a way to stack AC from shields ^^

If you think that's bad, then you probably haven't heard about the Facehugger Fleshgrinder Frisbee (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10715874&postcount=14) or the Flying Surfboard of Force (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5).

Actually, now that I think about it... there's probably a good reason when I'm playing as a player my DMs tend to restrict me to "Core only"...

[Hiro Protagonest]

goad feat...

Rather weak. For one, it's based off your weakest stat. For two, any enemy not focused on melee attacks or with a good will save (which, past low levels, is pretty much everything other than giants) can resist it consistently.

[Namfuak]

If you don't mind being dwarven Captain America, you could add the throwing and returning properties to your MH shield, and keep the AC bonus from the other. If your DM will allow Arrowmind to apply to throwing weapons, you could also increase your size so that you threaten more spaces without having to move around. After that, you can look into making ranged trip attacks, I don't remember where those are from though.

[OracleofSilence]

If your DM is not adverse to a small bit of pathfinder, the Shield Master feat removes ALL penalties from attacks with shields. TWF, power attack, and everything else included. Makes dual wielding shields very amusing, particularly since one of the prerequisite feats gives you a free bull rush for every attack that deals damage. Hit them up to ten times, deal a **** ton of damage and get a lot of knock back. Plays very nice with Dungeoncrasher if ported to 3.5.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Dungeoncrasher is from Dungeonscape, and it gives you bonus damage when you bullrush an enemy into a solid object. Probably your best chance of getting decent damage with a one-handed weapon. Best if you can get an attack which deals damage and bullrushes, because you can apply your Strength modifier to damage multiple times, which is handy.

The Goad feat is a really poor aggro mechanism. It uses your actions, the save runs off of your lowest score (or at least, one which is usually lowest priority for a martial character, and one which dwarves take a penalty to) and it targets a save. Monsters typically have huge amounts of hit dice relative to their CR, so they have very respectable saves. Not to mention things which are flat-out immune to the feat. Of many of those, you could just get in their face and they would attack you over the squishies, because they don't know any better. A great many of them, however, will have set targets which you will have no way of changing. If there were significantly better options, I'd tell you of them, but there aren't.

You're trying to do an awful lot on one character. You're trying to be effective while using a shield (not that hard on its own, but the easiest way to do that is a Dancing shield, which you cannot afford and probably don't want anyway), while dual-wielding (not particularly viable outside of precision damage, because otherwise you require a good dexterity score but get almost no benefit from that investment) and while trying to be a martial tank in a game where the most tanky characters (in role and defenses) are casters. If you wanted to be effective, it is more-or-less a waste of time. If you wanted to look frikkin' awesome, there are easier ways. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Just know that making this character effective will not be easy, and he will probably keep up with the party at best. If you're okay with that, then by all means carry on. If you thought this was going to be an effective way to fight, I'm afraid you were mistaken.

[Gavinfoxx]

So... when you say you want to tank... at the ultimate, broadest conceptual level, what do you want your character to do?

If an enemy monster goes RAR, how do you want your character to contribute to the overall survival of the group and lower the threat of the enemy, and make sure you are pulling your weight vis a vis your share of the loot and any actions or spells or other things the other characters spend on you?

[Voyager_I]

Yes. Yes you are. For one, you're using the word "tank" to describe your role. This isn't World of Warcraft. There is no aggro mechanic.

You know, World of Warcraft did not invent RPGs. People have been calling the tough guys "tanks" for quite a while, even if the specific MMO description doesn't really apply to anyone except Knights and people with the Goad feat.


Here's a tip. D12 and a couple extra points of AC won't stop you from being one-shotted or two-shotted. And even in low-op where you can survive, if everyone else is dead, who are you tanking for?

This part is true though. On a metagame level, your own survivability is worth only as much as your contribution to a fight. If you design a character that is exceptionally good at keeping themselves alive but doesn't actually do anything that makes the enemy need to kill them, then you're worthless. Some roles demand a character that's fairly survivable, but a Chain-Tripping Robilar's Gambit Thicket of Blades Powerfully Built Goliath Crusader isn't good because he can wade into the enemy and survive; he's good because he can wade into the enemy and completely deny them the ability to approach his vulnerable party members while being able to survive the feat and even dealing out a bit of damage.

Doing it wrong; the old example of the Giacomo Monk using Total Defense inside the cloud of an Eversmoking Bottle. Hard to kill, completely irrelevant to the actual fight taking place outside their privacy fog.

[ojayaba]

as to what im going to do to pull my weight, right now im starting to not be sure any more.
possibly switch over to spiked chain two-handed with focus on heavy armor.
RoS had armor optimization, and greater optimization, dwarven fighter ACF heavy armor thing
CW had armor specialization for mild DR

im not really sure any more :(

[Red_Dog]

Just a small "by the by" to few people who brought up lack of aggro mechanics.

While, yes outside a Knight or a Goad feat no one can "actually mechanically aggro someone".

However, I seem to recall this being a role-playing game? What happened to simply =>

Yelling obscenities about the enemy's mother/race/country/attractiveness/combat competence? Since when an intelligent enemy will ignore blunt insults? A DM should not metagame as much as the players do ^^. If an opponent is intelligent, antagonizing him/her will buy you few rounds, which is all you need. D&D combats do not last for hours. Sure not all enemies are bound to loose there poop and come running at you, however unless they are extremely methodical, they have a good chance to. For bonus points ask your local wizard/bard/other walking library on what kind of history/psychology a particular kind of enemy respond to the most? Perhaps Orcs would respond more vigorously towards questioning their ability to cleave things in half and to claims about the size of their... male ego. Elves on the other hand might find it unforgivable if you insult there hair or their poems. Of course to know for sure, play as a party and talk to the knowledge bank guy ^^.

Painting your armor in bright, intimidating colors and decorating it in corpses of other fallen enemies shows new enemies that if they don't run or deal with you THIS instant, they will loose. This does not work consistently well on smart guys without having a good land/fly speed as some enemies will try to use hit and run tactics. HOWEVER this should do amazing vs mindless creatures! Why? Because lots of mindless creatures have something they hate. Bulls hate red color, dogs hate dog whistles and so on. I am SURE if you pitch this to a DM, this will be a cool mechanic. And how will a "dumb fighter" know this? By asking a wizard he is so vigilantly defends! Wizards and other knowledge skill owners should help out great!
"Now for this fight, soak yourself in wolf urine and wave this torch made with swamp tar. This should get attention of Owlbears long enough for me to unmake their existence "~An example of a line of dialog ^^

Spreading rumors about yourself and going as far as post anonymous bounties or bounties thru your rouge's friend forged IDs. This is tricky, yet quite flavorful. If you spread rumors about how great you are and about how you "carry your companions" all by your great self, it could alter your enemies decision to attack you. This is, of course difficult to control as someone you aren't prepared to rolfstomp all over can catch a wind of this too.

These are all roleplaying tricks that the party as a unit can use to focus attention on the fighter who resembles a brick of adamantium ^^

Happy Instigating everyone! ^^

[Amphetryon]

Just a small "by the by" to few people who brought up lack of aggro mechanics.

While, yes outside a Knight or a Goad feat no one can "actually mechanically aggro someone".

However, I seem to recall this being a role-playing game? What happened to simply =>

Yelling obscenities about the enemy's mother/race/country/attractiveness/combat competence? Since when an intelligent enemy will ignore blunt insults? A DM should not metagame as much as the players do ^^. If an opponent is intelligent, antagonizing him/her will buy you few rounds, which is all you need. D&D combats do not last for hours. Sure not all enemies are bound to loose there poop and come running at you, however unless they are extremely methodical, they have a good chance to. For bonus points ask your local wizard/bard/other walking library on what kind of history/psychology a particular kind of enemy respond to the most? Perhaps Orcs would respond more vigorously towards questioning their ability to cleave things in half and to claims about the size of their... male ego. Elves on the other hand might find it unforgivable if you insult there hair or their poems. Of course to know for sure, play as a party and talk to the knowledge bank guy ^^.

Painting your armor in bright, intimidating colors and decorating it in corpses of other fallen enemies shows new enemies that if they don't run or deal with you THIS instant, they will loose. This does not work consistently well on smart guys without having a good land/fly speed as some enemies will try to use hit and run tactics. HOWEVER this should do amazing vs mindless creatures! Why? Because lots of mindless creatures have something they hate. Bulls hate red color, dogs hate dog whistles and so on. I am SURE if you pitch this to a DM, this will be a cool mechanic. And how will a "dumb fighter" know this? By asking a wizard he is so vigilantly defends! Wizards and other knowledge skill owners should help out great!
"Now for this fight, soak yourself in wolf urine and wave this torch made with swamp tar. This should get attention of Owlbears long enough for me to unmake their existence "~An example of a line of dialog ^^

Spreading rumors about yourself and going as far as post anonymous bounties or bounties thru your rouge's friend forged IDs. This is tricky, yet quite flavorful. If you spread rumors about how great you are and about how you "carry your companions" all by your great self, it could alter your enemies decision to attack you. This is, of course difficult to control as someone you aren't prepared to rolfstomp all over can catch a wind of this too.

These are all roleplaying tricks that the party as a unit can use to focus attention on the fighter who resembles a brick of adamantium ^^

Happy Instigating everyone! ^^Your first two examples are uses of the Intimidate skill, while the last appears to be an out-of-combat scenario loosely based on the Reputation alternate rules, and possibly dependent upon your opponent's Gather Information. In other words, they're covered within the rules, and don't really increase your ability to "draw aggro" unless the DM decides that they should. While it apparently works in your games and more power to you, when giving advice here, many will avoid suggestions dependent upon DM fiat.

EDIT: Note that bulls and dogs are not "mindless" creatures, especially in the D&D sense, where such descriptions are reserved for certain undead, constructs, and oozes, who will almost certainly be unaffected by the color of your armor under normal circumstances.

[ojayaba]

taunting i a good way to get things done, sadly the DM meta games to the extreme and targets exclusively who ever is a threat unless i can find a way within the rules to force him to target something else.
i ted to remove my meta gaming ability by making sure i use the proper skills to find out the right info that will lead to things working in my favor.
ex: gather info to find out whats going on, or knowledge: what ever as well.

thus the goat feat because that way im within the rules and they have to attack me unless they save if they are base to base. i want some way to increase the range on that so that i can do a small area if possible. but thats just something i have to work out after i get the right build down.

[Red_Dog]

Your first two examples are uses of the Intimidate skill

EDIT: Note that bulls and dogs are not "mindless" creatures, especially in the D&D sense, where such descriptions are reserved for certain undead, constructs, and oozes, who will almost certainly be unaffected by the color of your armor under normal circumstances.

First pardon me about mindless thing. I meant creatures that operate primarily on primal instincts or at least have primal psychological or physiological triggers[pheromones, etc.]. Dealing with mindless Undead, constructs and oozes is ... very very difficult. Well... oozes and mindless undead. With construct, depending on there "programming" [knowledge skill again], it is perhaps possible to make something happen. Say if the construct was instructed to target people who go after a specific item? or exhibit a particular behavior? But again, yes dealing with them is difficult period. As a person I used to knew said "if you found yourself fighting construct, somewhere along the way, the plan went sideways" heh. I am exaggerating, but I hope I got my point across ^^

==========================================>
Second, no, first two examples are not intimidation skill. Intimidation is all about demoralizing your opponent. Demoralizing is not antagonizing as far as I am aware? Intimidate skill description lets you use it as "make shift diplomancy" or to scare the pants off your opponent. Scared creatures are less likely to engage in confrontation with you.

Maybe a second method sounds like one at the beginning and I apologies. Painting armor in blood might indeed be intimidating and nothing else. As per this ambiguity I can happily agree that this is too ambiguous.

But antagonizing an opponent via triggers that he/she/it is susceptible to is not a DM fiat. DM should decided a target for an enemy based on quite a few conditions. Just because DM wants enemies go after a wizard, does not mean that's what enemies should do if a wizard is a very nonthreatening individual and enemies do not posses knowledge skills to know what a wizard can actually do. Meanwhile a belligerent rude stocky man/woman that won't shut up would seem like a better target.

I understand that this isn't a "mechanical" advise but it should work for any reasonable DM. Yes, of course some enemies will know what they are doing. A Band of assassins hired to execute this particular wizard won't just loose there cool because of some loud mouth, but a band of thugs would. I am just a fan of using role-playing to one's advantage. If the DM employs advance target selection, he/she has to have a reason. Without a reason, it starts to smell like metagaming...

P.S. In fact, IMO, a knight is one of few classes [like paladin btw, another problem with that class] needs his mechanical abilities as he isn't really allowed to behave this way.

P.S.2. *swordsaged...*
*EDIT*=>ojayaba
Just for the record, I loath metagaming. I won't give advises to people on how to deal with it, as I generally do not deal with it. And likewise I won't advise people to "leave games" or "pick personal fights" as this is a game forum and not personal advise column and I do not want to be responsible for personal drama and all that comes out of it.

Also, Goad feat makes you, like a knight depend on your charisma. I never thought that one needs to be charismatic to provoke someone. Even in real life, it takes very little pressure applied in a right way to blow someone fuse to the point of them swinging at you. If anything its a Wisdom or Intelligence check to say right things at right time. Persuading someone or scaring someone would definitely depend on charisma(or "presence" if you will, as its called in other systems). But antagonizing some one shouldn't IMO.

With semi-mechanical side of things, perhaps disguise self could help? Appearing as a creature's hated enemy could swing the "agrro" towards you? Like looking like an elf when fighting orcs and etc. You would need knowledge again I guess to know who hates who.

I am sorry if I am not helping. I am being sincere.

[ojayaba]

P.S.2. *EDIT*=>ojayaba
Just for the record, I loath metagaming. I won't give advises to people on how to deal with it, as I generally do not deal with it. And likewise I won't advise people to "leave games" or "pick personal fights" as this is a game forum and not personal advise column and I do not want to be responsible for personal drama and all that comes out of it.

i myself also refuse to meta game, thus curious how i can do the tank thing with out meta gaming since the DM DOES meta game his targets. i would like to be bale to non-meta game a way to keep the aggro on me since yelling out taunts wont/hasn't worked in the past. goad works as its in the rules and requires a save. but only works on base to base things :( so when they walk around me because mindless vermin are smart enough too do that... they avoid my goad.

yes i know mindless vermin are immune to goad but point is things some how have the smarts to avoid me but not to even look at me as a threat unless they can kill me off with ease.

the average orc would avoid the dwarf bellowing insults to take out the human wizard 40 feat back casting...

seems like meta gaming to me

[Myth]

I've personally replied to three or four of "dual wielding sields and being awesome" threads here. Usually people get sulky and say "why don't you let OP play what he wants and have fun" and throw some passive-aggressive Stormwind at me.

OP: being the concept of a tank in DnD does not mean being a guy in a tin can who wields to slabs of iron and looks like a moron. You don't threaten the enemy. You don't have mobility. You will be useless.

Just search this forum for dual wielding shields and you will see the plethora of threads and why this idea is horrible.

[Red_Dog]

i myself also refuse to meta game, thus curious how i can do the tank thing with out meta gaming since the DM DOES meta game his targets. i would like to be bale to non-meta game a way to keep the aggro on me since yelling out taunts wont/hasn't worked in the past. goad works as its in the rules and requires a save. but only works on base to base things :( so when they walk around me because mindless vermin are smart enough too do that... they avoid my goad.

yes i know mindless vermin are immune to goad but point is things some how have the smarts to avoid me but not to even look at me as a threat unless they can kill me off with ease.

the average orc would avoid the dwarf bellowing insults to take out the human wizard 40 feat back casting...

seems like meta gaming to me

With mindless vermin... try pheromones! I mean, this isn't just taunts. This goes far into "switch phasers to kill". Its a looong shot with such DM, BUT, say you want something inside of a giant hornets nest? Perhpahs a magic item they took and being giant hornets and all just have it? Or w/e else. Its not important.

Ask a party sneak to kill ONE insect that is alone on it business and bring back the corpse immediately.

Ask a party knowledge bank to perform autopsy and get the pheromone extract. Craft[dissecting] or Heal maybe required...

Take pheromone extract and go huntin'. When close to the hive, get it all over yourself.

If all done right... DM has to make them attack you and only you. I mean this seems like an ironclad argument to me...

Again... maybe NOT helping = \

[Amphetryon]

i myself also refuse to meta game, thus curious how i can do the tank thing with out meta gaming since the DM DOES meta game his targets. i would like to be bale to non-meta game a way to keep the aggro on me since yelling out taunts wont/hasn't worked in the past. goad works as its in the rules and requires a save. but only works on base to base things :( so when they walk around me because mindless vermin are smart enough too do that... they avoid my goad.

yes i know mindless vermin are immune to goad but point is things some how have the smarts to avoid me but not to even look at me as a threat unless they can kill me off with ease.

the average orc would avoid the dwarf bellowing insults to take out the human wizard 40 feat back casting...

seems like meta gaming to me
As I've never seen a person able to completely avoid metagaming in D&D, I'm curious as to how you avoid it.

[ojayaba]

As I've never seen a person able to completely avoid metagaming in D&D, I'm curious as to how you avoid it.

avoiding it is easy for me.
what i do is take on some acting traits an actor friend taught me. become the character, do full background for the character so you have something to work with.
ex: dwarf fighter i played. was LG, stubborn, tough and very not outwardly emotional. the skills he had where skills he used all the time and as for knowledge of every day life, that was a given but only from a dwarven perspective.
what would a 1st level dwarven fighter know about ship building?
nothing, what would he know about orcs, a lot more because they are a racial enemy that attacks the clan on a regular basis with X tactics. what about undead, well, seen less of them. they are dead things that still move, best way to deal with em is to hit it with an axe till it falls down and stays down. or get a cleric, they seem to be able to deal with undead better then me.

how do i deal with a wizard?
bah, finger wagglings fer pansies, trust me axe first, then me armor and shield.

thats the type of mentality i run for a dwarven fighter.

i just look at things from the perspective of what im playing.



@ myth: dont suppose you could link some of these other threads could you? i'd like too see some of the ideas that came up there as well.

[Amphetryon]

avoiding it is easy for me.
what i do is take on some acting traits an actor friend taught me. become the character, do full background for the character so you have something to work with.
ex: dwarf fighter i played. was LG, stubborn, tough and very not outwardly emotional. the skills he had where skills he used all the time and as for knowledge of every day life, that was a given but only from a dwarven perspective.
what would a 1st level dwarven fighter know about ship building?
nothing, what would he know about orcs, a lot more because they are a racial enemy that attacks the clan on a regular basis with X tactics. what about undead, well, seen less of them. they are dead things that still move, best way to deal with em is to hit it with an axe till it falls down and stays down. or get a cleric, they seem to be able to deal with undead better then me.

how do i deal with a wizard?
bah, finger wagglings fer pansies, trust me axe first, then me armor and shield.

thats the type of mentality i run for a dwarven fighter.

i just look at things from the perspective of what im playing.



@ myth: dont suppose you could link some of these other threads could you? i'd like too see some of the ideas that came up there as well.
That's not avoiding metagaming completely, though. How do you avoid the dice, or the justify the decision of whom to attack without, on some level, acknowledging that it's a game? Remember, even if you're consciously making less than optimal decisions, you're still doing so with knowledge of which decisions are best (or at least appear best).

TL;DR: Every choice your character makes, you're making for that character in the context of playing the game. Choices that you're not making based on available, DM-provided info, are informed by the dice. "Completely avoiding" metagaming is not possible, or at least, I've never seen it described or done.

[ojayaba]

@Amphetryon: if it looks like it might be a threat, hit it.
if some one else provides info that changes what a threat might be, go from there. As to me making a choice for the character, yes I am. Keep in mind the choice is being made from the perspective of that character.
something sneaks up behind me and other party members can see it, then they do and i dont even knowing that i as the gamer can see it my character has no reason to.
sadly, resulted in me getting back stabbed by "team mates" before because i the gamer knew it, but the character did not.

[AslanCross]

As has been pointed out and as you've realized, OP, having high HP and AC in D&D barely matters. The best way to tank is to draw enemy fire, and keep the softies from getting hit. There's only two classes that have mechanical support for that: the Knight and Crusader. Unfortunately ToB's already been banned there, so a Knight might be the next best thing. Ironically the best way to do it is a reach weapon build.

[Quietus]

as to what im going to do to pull my weight, right now im starting to not be sure any more.
possibly switch over to spiked chain two-handed with focus on heavy armor.
RoS had armor optimization, and greater optimization, dwarven fighter ACF heavy armor thing
CW had armor specialization for mild DR

im not really sure any more :(

If that's the case, it seems like your DM is less playing a roleplaying game in combat situations, and is more playing a tactical wargame. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not what's on the box. In this case, a trip machine might be worth considering, because that's the only way you'll "tank" for this party.

If you're wanting the aesthetic of attacking with a shield while also using it to block, however, I'm a fan of using a heavy shield (just one!) with Improved Shield Bash, weilding it two-handed for power attack. 4,180 GP gets you a +1 bashing heavy spiked shield, which does 2d6 damage base, has +1 to attack/damage, and provides +3 AC. If you're familiar with the anime Bleach, I imagine this as being similar to Renji's sword - looks something like this http://ani.me/site_media/media/media/2011/06/22/renji_close.JPG

In terms of description, you're looking at a massive hunk of metal with a jagged edge down one side. You're equally capable of smacking people around with it, and turning it sideways to block incoming attacks - its sheer size gives it that ability. It costs you exactly one feat to use properly, in the form of Improved Shield Bash, and then you can use all the other usual routes for increasing your damage via two-handed power attacking. It's probably more mechanically effective to use that feat to be proficient with a spiked chain, but if you're looking for aesthetics, this one comes off pretty badass. It even opens up things like Blood-Spiked Charger, which I've had good experience with using.

[animewatcha]

Is there a way to jack up the normal un-enchanted ac of a shield? I.E. A buckler that has the shield ac bonus equal to that of a full-plate's armor bonus. If wanting two shield route, was thinking a 'really really hard' normal shield while other has the magical enhancement stuff that ups ac for shields.

Like having a small shield and bracer of armor +1. Outside of feats etc. Small shield would apply ac to normal ac and flat-footed ( overriding the bracer of armor bonus ), but bracer of armor would still provide ac bonus as per force effect manner.

[Vegan Zombie]

Doing it wrong; the old example of the Giacomo Monk using Total Defense inside the cloud of an Eversmoking Bottle. Hard to kill, completely irrelevant to the actual fight taking place outside their privacy fog.


I laughed so hard at this. I had a party mate in my last campaign who played a monk who tried this every single encounter.
I eventually Telekinetically threw his bottle away as far as I could into the ocean off of our ship. He was not impressed.

[Voyager_I]

I laughed so hard at this. I had a party mate in my last campaign who played a monk who tried this every single encounter.
I eventually Telekinetically threw his bottle away as far as I could into the ocean off of our ship. He was not impressed.

Did he also try to walk into magic-marts to pick up handfuls of one-charge wands for his maxed cross-class UMD?

[animewatcha]

Monks can get UMD as a class skill without spending feat slots or class levels. Just mainly skill points to keep UMD above character level ( which should do anyways, right? ). Just gotta pick the right WOTC race to do it. Monk can even be medium-sized.

[Agent 451]

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle) gives you a +2 to your shield bonus if you and an adjacent ally are both using a shield. Not really what you're looking for, but it might help.

If your second shield is a light shield you can get Phalanx Fighting (HoB also, requires Shield Wall), to get a +1 to AC. The two feats have decent synergy. Pretty steep feat cost just for a +1 if you aren't fighting in formation, though.

Formation Expert (Complete Warrior) also gives you a +1 to AC if adjacent allies are using shields.

But to do exactly what you're asking, I'm coming up empty.

Does it specify what an "ally" is? Could you not technically have a caster's monkey familiar wield a shield while riding YOUR shoulder? Or share a square with a Tiny individual with a shield?

[Vegan Zombie]

Did he also try to walk into magic-marts to pick up handfuls of one-charge wands for his maxed cross-class UMD?

Haha no but he did buy a mount once and tried to go mounted combat using a lance and shield (with no feats).

We were getting chased by some land shark (like in the movie tremors) and we decided it would be best to climb the rocks and get off the sand. Said monk tied his horse to a tree, thinking it would be safe.

The horse was the land sharks first victim, and our monk was livid, blaming our party for abandoning it.

He also hit on EVERY female NPC we came across, including Outsiders

[Tvtyrant]

I think he is talking about those spikes that add their bonus to your AC, which arguably stack.

[ojayaba]

I think he is talking about those spikes that add their bonus to your AC, which arguably stack.

spikes that add to the AC of a shield??????

[Socratov]

is ot too late to mention dual shields and a spiked codpiece? why chestbutting if you can taunt and attack at the same time :smallcool: It is alos considered a natural way of movement... :smallyuk:

[Darrin]

spikes that add to the AC of a shield??????

Defending Spikes, sure.

[ojayaba]

Defending Spikes, sure.

ok, so it would be with enhancement then. For a moment I thought some mundane way to add AC to a shield.