[DnD 3.5] Barbarians and Temporary Hit Points

[GreenStapler]

I have a rules question.

If a barbarian, whilst in rage and thus benefiting from extra hit points due to the constitution bonus, takes enough damage to go into negative hit points despite the HP boost, does he/she die the next round from rage wearing off? This happened to one of my players, and I was unsure about how it worked.

[tyckspoon]

Yes. The Barbarian doesn't get 'temporary hit points', not in the rules sense; his Constitution changes. Changes in Constitution *always* cause a related change in HP, either a gain or loss commensurate to the change in your Con, and there is no protective clause to keep you from becoming disabled or dying due to this change.

(The difference between this and Temporary HP is that actual temporary HP are lost 'first', so that if they've already been cut off you by the time the effect granting them expires you don't take any extra damage- they're a buffer to your 'real' HP pool.)

[NeoSeraphi]

No, you die immediately. Taking enough damage to drop you to negatives will make you unconscious, and when you fall unconscious, you stop raging, and when you stop raging, your Constitution score drops back to normal, you lose your extra hit points, and you die.

[lokoone]

No, you die immediately. Taking enough damage to drop you to negatives will make you unconscious, and when you fall unconscious, you stop raging, and when you stop raging, your Constitution score drops back to normal, you lose your extra hit points, and you die.

no, nowhere is written that the rage ends when the barbarian fall unconscious. so the barbarian will stay "alive" while the rage last.

[Darrin]

This is why I prefer taking the Whirling Frenzy (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedClasses.html#whirling-frenzy) ACF or Ferocity ACF (Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)). No need to keep track of "fake" HPs that go away when the rage ends.

Actually, in my own campaign, I gave raging Barbarians temp HP instead:

"Raging characters do not receive a Constitution bonus. Instead, they receive a +2 to Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to their character level. These temporary hit points may remain after the Rage ends, but are removed at the end of the encounter. Rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 5 + the character's Constitution modifier. When the Barbarian reaches 11th level and gets Greater Rage, the Fortitude bonus increases to +3, and his rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 6 + his Constitution modifier. When he reaches 20th level and gets Mighty Rage, the Fortitude bonus increases to +4 and his rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 7 + his Constitution modifier."

Not nearly so much bookkeeping that way... and the less bookkeeping the barbarians have to do, the better.

[NeoSeraphi]

"Raging characters do not receive a Constitution bonus. Instead, they receive a +2 to Fortitude saves and a number of temporary hit points equal to their character level. These temporary hit points may remain after the Rage ends, but are removed at the end of the encounter. Rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 5 + the character's Constitution modifier. When the Barbarian reaches 11th level and gets Greater Rage, the Fortitude bonus increases to +3, and his rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 6 + his Constitution modifier. When he reaches 20th level and gets Mighty Rage, the Fortitude bonus increases to +4 and his rage lasts a number of rounds equal to 7 + his Constitution modifier."

Not nearly so much bookkeeping that way... and the less bookkeeping the barbarians have to do, the better.

That's a pretty heavy nerf. With your version, a 20th level barbarian gets 20 hit points with your system, while a 20th level SRD barbarian gets an extra 80 hit points. (100 extra if he has the Reckless Rage feat).

[Malimar]

I lost track of the number of times Ludgeblatt Curdlegut, Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian, would defeat his foes, calm down, and immediately collapse in a heap. I love it; it's so cinematic, and it's not an effect you usually get in D&D.

[Zaq]

As an anecdote, we were recently fighting a Barbarian we wanted to take in alive, and none of us are actually especially good at nonlethal damage. We knew he was raging, and we knew that he'd drop his HP like a rock when he was done (we HAVE a Barb in the party, so it's not really that metagamey). This made it . . . interesting, let's say, to walk the razor's edge between keeping him up and keeping him down. Thankfully, our Healer is very good, and also has Close Wounds.

[Darrin]

That's a pretty heavy nerf. With your version, a 20th level barbarian gets 20 hit points with your system, while a 20th level SRD barbarian gets an extra 80 hit points. (100 extra if he has the Reckless Rage feat).

No, the 20th level SRD barbarian doesn't get an "extra" 80 hit points. They're not "extra" if you have to recalculate your HP down to your normal Con at the end of your rage.

Barb A and B both have 200 HP. Barb A is getting Temp HPs, Barb B is getting a Con bonus:

1) Barb A rages and goes up to 220 HP. Barb B rages and goes up to 280 HP.
2) Both Barbs take a total of 210 damage during the course of the battle.
3) Rage ends. Barb A is at 10 HP and counting his treasure. Barb B is at -10 HP and taking a permanent dirt nap.

All the SRD Rage does is give the cleric a somewhat longer window to get to the Barb and cast cure spells before his rage ends. It doesn't allow you to absorb any more damage than normal. It lets you operate "in the negatives" for a short while, but once all the accounting is done the temporary Con bonus doesn't allow you to absorb any more damage than if your Con hadn't changed at all.

20 temp HP at 20th level is pretty pathetic, though... I should have scaled that up a bit, but we didn't have any Barbs go up that high in my campaign.

[ericgrau]

He has maybe 14+6=20 con though, for a +5 modifier. With that and rage he gets 3+5+4=12 rounds of rage. In most fights that gives plenty of time to heal before the rage ends and he won't die.

The real issue is at lower levels when he gets 3+2+2=7 rounds of rage. Even then most fights that's still enough time to save his life. Though for some it is not.

Then there's the way a lot of groups have the rage end when the barbarian falls unconscious. FAQ agrees that the rage continues, but that's something they really should have clarified from the start. In those gaming groups the barbarian effectively gets up to 10 less HP, though the boost to con is still better than temp HP.