[3.5]Templar, Paladin replacement (PEACH) [Archive]

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toapat

2012-04-06, 05:39 PM

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well, this is the first piece of significant Homebrew i have performed. This is a rebuild of Paladin to release them from their stupid alignment locking, grant them a few class features that really should be there, and to get a commentary. They got renamed asto better convey that they aren’t exactly paladins anymore

I wanted to push them from a T5 upto a T3, although i would be happy just to push them up to a T4

The Templar is a divine warrior, who is devout to an idea or a deity. Templar who serve Deities are highly pious, and hold their deity's holy word as absolute truth. Other Templar serve ideas, such as Tyranny, Honor, Guardianship, or Malice.

There are those driven to carry out their will, wielding inner strength and divine might in order to deliver upon that will. Their names inspire hope in their allies, fear in their enemies, and admiration in civilian populous. They are Shining Knights with souls of righteous fury and Black Warriors who spread death and pestilence. Their touch causes life to be restored, or to end. They are harbingers of war and peace.

They are Templar.

http://krysiart.com/images/knights-illustration.jpg

Non-fluff fluffTemplar who choose to serve Good are men and women who wish to help others, by following the law or breaking it. They are typically called Paladins, and calling them a blackguard is considered highly suicidal. These Templar champion Hope, Honor, Compassion, and deities and ideals to benefit the people.

The Templar who serve ideas of chaos are freespirited individuals, who do what they want to do, so long as it doesnt conflict with their concience. They favor the name Anarch, while the name Justiciar is an incredible insult them. These Templar champion the ideas of Love, Freedom, and other ideas governed by emotion or the unknowable wills of chaotic divines.

The Templar who choose evil are cold individuals, who feel their power gives them the right to do what they wish. They enjoy the honorific of Blackguard, while being called a Paladin will quickly yield the separation of your head and body. They champion ideas such as Fear, Conflict, Malice, and the wills of the Infernal who wish to bring an end to that which is good.

Those Templar who choose to uphold Law are stoic unmoving beings. They respond well to the name Justiciar, while Anarch will result in some obscure local law being used against you. These Templar champion Order, Justice, Tryanny, and beings of supreme and perfect law.

Templar
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Detect Alignments, Divine Blow 1/day|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Lay on Hands, Divine Grace|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Divine Health, Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror, Bonus Feat|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Mercy/Cruelty, Turn/Rebuke Undead|0|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Mount, Divine Blow 2/day|1+1|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Mettle, Bonus Feat|1+1|0|—|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Measure of Conviction|2+1|1+1|—|—|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Mercy/Cruelty|2+1|1+1|—|—|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|2+1|2+1|0|—|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Divine Blow 3/day|3+1|2+1|1+1|—|—|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7||3+1|2+1|1+1|0|—|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat, Mercy/Cruelty|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|—|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Divine Charge|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|—|—

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Improved Mettle|4+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|0|—

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Divine Blow 4/day, Bonus Feat|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|—

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Mercy/Cruelty|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|0

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Awesome Smiting|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|2+1

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Mercy/Cruelty, Divine Blow 5/day|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

[/table]
Alignment: Any, or same as Deity.
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magical Device (Cha)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features:
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Templar are proficient with all simple and Martial weapons, as well as all Armor and all shields (Except tower shields). Templar are also proficient with their Deity's favored weapon, or a single type of weapon of their choice if they do not follow any specific deity.

Detect Alignments (Sp): At will, a Templar can use Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos, as the spells.

Divine Blow (Su): A Templar may once per day, channel the might of an ideal she does not oppose through her weapon. This blow gains the Templar's charisma modifier to her attack bonus, and deals additional damage against creatures that oppose the conviction equal to her Templar level. This strike gains an additional +4 to attack bonus, and bypasses aligned Damage Reduction if the Templar uses a blow of of an Alignment sharing her convictions. The Divine Blows are Smite Evil (Good aligned), Smite Good (Evil aligned), Axiomatic Strike (Law aligned), Anarchic Strike (Chaotic Aligned). The Templar may use this ability one additional time per day at every fifth level.

Lay on Hands (Su): Starting at level 2, a Templar can heal or inflict 1d6+her charisma modifier damage per day. For every 2 Templar levels afterwards, Lay on hands deals an additional 1d6 damage and can be used an additional time per day. Good aligned Templar channel Positive energy and use Lay on Hands to heal their allies, and to inflict damage against undead and evil outsiders. Evil Templar channel negative energy and use Lay on Hands to directly damage their enemies, or to heal undead and evil outsiders. Neutral Templar may choose to use Lay on Hands as either a positive or negative energy effect.
Lay on Hands is a Free action when the Templar uses it on herself, and a Swift action when used on a friendly ally. When used offensively, The Templar must succeed a melee touch attack in order for the lay on hands to take effect, if the Templar fails, the Lay on Hands has no effect and the lay on hands is not consumed for the day. A Templar must have one hand free in order to use Lay on Hands.

Divine Grace (Su): A Templar applies her Charisma Modifier, if positive, to her saves.

Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror (Su): Beginning at third level a Templar becomes immune to fear, and a Good aligned Templar inspires courage in her allies, while an Evil aligned Templar causes her opponents to quake in fear. Aura of Courage grants to allies within 10 feet of the Templar a +2 Moral bonus to attack rolls. Aura of Terror causes allies within 10 feet of the Templar to take a +2 Moral bonus to armor class. The bonus from a Templar's arua increases by +1 every 2 Templar levels afterwards.
The Templar can manifest their aura for 1 minute per 2 Templar levels a day, although the duration the aura is manifested need not be one consecutive period.
Neutral Templar select one aura to use, and only through miraculous intervention may change their presence.

Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a Templar gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Bonus Feats: At third level, and every third level afterwards, a Templar recieves a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat of the Templar's choosing, and she is considered a Fighter for any feat with which they are prerequisite.

Mercies and Cruelties (Su): Each Templar has their own worldviews, as well as their own personal view of the deity they serve if they serve one. This is most prominently noticeable in how a Templar’s lay on hands ability changes over time. At Every Fourth level, a good Templar chooses one effect that will benefit a target, such as curing a disease, or lifting a curse. Evil Templar wish to inflict worse harm upon their enemies, and thus may inflict curses, diseases, or blinding those who suffer the Templar’s touch. Mercies and Cruelties are permanent modifiers to the Lay on Hands Ability. Mercies will always be applied to a Lay on Hands used to heal a target, while Cruelties are always applied to a damaging Lay on Hands.
Neutral Templar may take a Mercy or Cruelty at every fourth level, but they can not take both a mercy and a cruelty.

(Mercies and Cruelties are spells or metamagics that are combined into Lay on Hands. In order to create one, a beneficial or harmful non-healing, non-dirrect-damage spell is chosen. The spell must be equal to or below the highest spell level a Templar knows of, although the Templar does not need to know the spell. Any metamagic used can not use a spell slot modifier greater then Highest spell level - 1. If a spell used this way has a duration, that duration is applied as cast by a caster of half the Templar's level, rounded down.)

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): All Templar can turn or rebuke undead as though they are a cleric 2 levels lower. See Turn or Rebuke Undead for rules governing your Templar’s use of turn or rebuke.

Templar Spells: A Templar upon reaching fourth level is able to pray for spells each day. These spells are taken from the Templar spell list. (Found below)
To prepare and cast spells, a Templar must have a Charisma of 10+the spell level. The saves of a Templar’s spells are equal to 10 + the spell level + the Templar’s Charisma modifier.
Templar gain additional spell slots for having a high charisma. Templar cast Spells with a caster level equal to two thirds their Templar level, rounded down.
Templar Must spend an hour in meditation or prayer to their deity, during which time they ask for guidance and prepare spells for the day.

Good, Chaotic, Evil, Lawful Spells: A Templar’s alignment may restrict her from access to spells as a result in moral and ethical beliefs, or because the spell conflicts with the alignment of the Templar’s deity.

Templar Domain: A Templar also at 4th level gains access to the spells of a single cleric domain. The Templar prepares spells of this domain as though the spell level was equal to 2/3s normal, rounded up. This domain must be under the jurisdiction of the Templar's patron deity if the Templar serves a deity.

Templar Spell List
Level 1 Templar Spells
Bane: Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water: Makes holy water.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Curse Water M: Makes unholy water.
Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Detect Chaos: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Evil: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Good: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Law: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Magic Stone: Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Protection from Chaos: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Protection from Good: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Protection from Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.

Level 2 Templar Spells
Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Augury: Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Bear's Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull's Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Consecrate: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Death Knell: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Desecrate: Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Eagle's Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Find Traps: Notice traps as a rogue does.
Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Owl's Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other: You take half of subject’s damage.
Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Status: Monitors condition, position of allies.
Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.

Level 3 Templar Spells
Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
Continual Flame: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness: Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
Helping Hand: Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Magic Circle against Chaos: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Evil: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Good: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Stone Shape: Sculpts stone into any shape.
Telepathic Bond, Lesser: As telepathic bond, but you and one other creature.
Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.

Level 4 Templar Spells
Anarchic Sword: Weapons becomes +5, deal +2d6 damage against law.
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Axiomatic Sword: Weapons becomes +5, deal +2d6 damage against chaos.
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Dispel Chaos: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Good: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Law: +4 bonus against attacks.
Divination: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with Divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Hallow: Designates location as holy.
Holy Sword: Weapons becomes +5, deal +2d6 damage against evil.
Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Restoration: Restores level and ability score drains.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Tongues: Speak any language.
Unhallow: Designates location as unholy.
Unholy Sword: Weapons becomes +5, deal +2d6 damage against good.

Level 5 Templar Spells
Atonement: Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level.
Commune: Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Insect Plague: Locust swarms attack creatures.
Plane Shift: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Psychic Turmoil: Invisible field leeches psionic power points away.
Raise Dead: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Scrying: Spies on subject from a distance.
Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Symbol of Pain: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
True Seeing: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.

Level 6 Templar Spells
Animate Objects: Objects attack your foes.
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Bear's Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/ level.
Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Bull's Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Create Undead: Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Eagle's Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Forbiddance: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Glyph of Warding, Greater: As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Heroes' Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Owl's Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Symbol of Fear: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Undeath to Death: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.
New Spells/Errata
Holy Sword: This Spell effects all weapons the Templar is wielding, and may willingly be used on shields.
Anarchic Sword: Same as Holy Sword, but this spell causes the weapons to deal chaos damage against lawful enemies and to emit Magic Circle against Law
Unholy Sword: Same as Holy Sword, but this spell causes the weapons to deal Unholy damage against good enemies and to emit Magic Circle against good
Axiomatic Sword: Same as Holy Sword, but this spell causes the weapons to deal Law damage against chaotic enemies and to emit Magic Circle against Chaos
Note, SRD spells only

Templar Mount: Same as the paladin's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Templar%27s_Mount)

Mettle (Su): The Templar's conviction is so strong, that she is able to shrug off magical effects that would harm her. If a Templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

Improved Mettle (Su):As with Mettle, but the Templar also receives half damage on a failed Fortitude save, or partial damage on a failed Will save.

Measure of Conviction (Ex): The Templar's conviction strengthens, and she is now able to perform multiple attacks with a single use of her divine blow. Once activated, all bonuses of Divine blow apply until the beginning of the Templar's next turn.

Divine Charge (Ex): The Templar can focus their conviction into a mighty charge. When making an attack during a charge, a Templar may expend a use of their Divine blow ability, and instead adds 3 times their Templar level to damage. The divine blow is not expended if the attack misses.

Awesome Smiting (Su): The final attack a Templar makes in their full attack action is hypercharged with divine power. If this attack connects, the target is incapable of flight for one minute, and is knocked flying in a straight line for 10 feet per Templar level in a direction of the Templar's choosing. When the Opponent lands, it recieves 1d6 damage per 10 feet launched, and falls prone. If any object obstructs the path of the opponent, the object and opponent each are dealt 1d8 per Templar level. If damage dealt to the object would destroy the object and ends its movement in the space formerly occupied by the obstruction. Otherwise the opponent lands in a space adjacent to the obstruction. You may also perform an Awesome Smite by expending all charges of your Divine Blow ability for the day.

The Templar's Code: All Templar must follow a code. This code can be self defined, or be that of the Templar's Patron deity. Severe and deliberate violation, that is not a result of an incomperable ultimatum, of the code results in the Templar immediately being struck by divine lightning, which destroys body, soul, and possessions.

Divinely Obliterated Templar: The only way to raise a Templar after they violate their code of conduct is through a Miracle spell. If the Templar followed a patron deity, the caster of the Miracle spell must perform a DC 20-(Months Dead) Diplomacy check in order to convince the Deity to grant the Templar a second chance. Otherwise the cleric must spend 1000 experience and 25000gp worth of diamond dust.

Feats:
Exalted Blow: Your Divine Blows strikes with greater Conviction.
Prerequisite: Templar Divine Blow
Benefit: Neutral Templar now gain +4 to hit bonus and bypass damage reduction with their Divine Blow. Aligned Templar deal +2d6 damage with their Divine Blow.
Special: Templar may select this feat multiple times, its effects stack.

Extra Conviction: You can perform extra Divine blows.
Prerequisite: Templar Divine Blow
Benefit: You may use your Divine blow ability 2 more times a day.

Zale

2012-04-06, 06:39 PM

toapat

2012-04-06, 06:47 PM

Obliterated*

Sorry.

They certainly seem more flexible now, Code-wise. The removal of the need for wisdom as a casting stat reduces MAD somewhat.

Mettle is always nice.

Not sure exactly what Tier it would be, though. I would say it's certainly an improvement.

Though, I do wonder about how ambiguous Mercies and Cruelties is.

thanks for pointing out that error

while i wont go into great detail, considering i dread making any type of chart for forums, ill list off a few

Lvl 20 Only ones: Maximize or Mass (Mass cure or Mass Inflict)

Posion: Neutralize 1 day/Inflict 1d6 + 1d6 any one attribute

Disease: Removes any one Disease, even Mummy Rot/Inflict any one disease.

Luck: +1 Luck bonus/Penalty to all rolls and checks

basically, i was thinking mercies and cruelties would be upto the decision of the DM or player what spells they gestalt into Lay on Hands, with the only restrictions being they have to be single effect spells or metamagics

toapat

2012-04-06, 07:48 PM

Post changed into storage for future updates:

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Words Per Day

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Divine Blow 1/day|
0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|
0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bonus Feat, Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror, Divine Health|
0

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Mercy/Cruelty|
6

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Mount, Combat Stance 1/day, Divine Blow 2/day|
12

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Mettle, Bonus Feat|
18

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Measure of Conviction|
24

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Nonrepetitive Prefixes, Mercy/Cruelty|
30

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|
36

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Divine Blow 3/day|
42

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Combat Stance 2/day|
48

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat, Mercy/Cruelty|
54

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Divine Charge|
60

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Improved Mettle|
66

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus Feat, Divine Blow 4/day|
72

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Divine Edge, Mercy/Cruelty|
78

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Combat Stance 3/day|
84

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|
90

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Awesome Smite|
96

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Mercy/Cruelty, Divine Blow 5/day|
102

[/table]

Steward

2012-04-06, 09:02 PM

When it comes to "mercies" and "cruelties", you say that the effect duration is equal to half Paladin level -- does that mean that each one lasts for a number of rounds/minutes/hours/etc. equal to 1/2 the Paladin's level or do you mean that, when calculating the duration of the effect, you treat it as a spell cast by someone whose caster level is equal to 1/2 the Paladin's level?

toapat

2012-04-12, 10:29 AM

Added in Force of Personality

trying to figure out how to reword Divine Blow so that it applies to all attacks made in a round

and again, i ask, are there any Dead levels?

toapat

2012-04-13, 08:37 PM

Added Measure of Conviction and Awesome Smiting

Empedocles

2012-04-14, 08:54 PM

As requested, I'm here to PEACH BABY!!!!!!! I'll be evaluating this class feature by class feature, and I'll be honest about everything. Promise :smallwink:

Chassis (HD, BAB, Saves): Everything makes sense here. I approve :smallbiggrin:

Skills: Umm...what??? The only classes that should be allowed to pick their own skills are extremely versatile classes like the factotum, savant, or human paragon. It makes no sense whatsoever in this class. For example, I could pick the following 8 skills as class skills: Iaijutsu Focus, Autohypnosis, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Bluff, Psicraft, and USE MAGIC DEVICE. What's worse is that with 4 skill points you probably won't even use all of your class skills, so I can basically pick any skills I want. There are builds focused around use magic device and iaijutsu focus is a fairly useful and class specific skill. This makes no sense whatsoever. Just give them a skill list.

On the brighter side I like the boost in skill points.

Detect Alignment: Paladin goodies!

Divine Blow: The wording here is awkward, to say the least. She adds her charisma to her attack roll...and 4 to her damage roll? I'm not sure if I got that right, but if I did that's pretty bad since it doesn't scale whatsoever. Try this wording: This ability allows the paladin to, once per day, make an attack with a bonus on her attack roll equal to her charisma modifier. If she hits she can also add her level to the damage roll. The attack is treated as being any one alignment that the paladin chooses for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This ability can be used an additional time at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
That's not perfect, but it certainly is clearer what the ability is used for. Also, I personally feel that every 5 levels an additional use is sort of harsh, but that's more of a personal preference thing.

Force of Personality: More paladin goodies!

Lay on Hands: Make the inflict effect a touch attack. Otherwise, an excellent buffed up version of the original lay on hands.

Divine Grace: This overlaps badly with force of personality, making force of personality completely redundant. Otherwise though, it's a cool ability.

Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror: Cool but not super useful. I'd actually suggest making this a bit stronger and not passive (so you have uses/day). The aura of courage grants you and nearby allies a bonus on attack rolls equal to, say, your charisma modifier while the aura of terror makes all nearby enemies save against fear. If you do change it the way I've suggested it'll need to scale also so it's worth using at higher levels.

Mercies and Cruelties: I love this ability. That being said, you need to make clear what it can and cannot do. If read as written it could be very abusable and let you give something lepresy or cure old age or something stupid like that. Make a list of abilities that you can use with this (like blindness or deafness for cruelties or lift curse or cure disease for mercies). A few examples aren't really good enough.

Turn/Rebuke Undead: Goody! Divine feats here I come!

Spells: THE CLERIC SPELL LIST????????????????????? That makes this much more powerful. You need to give it its own spell list...the paladin spell list as is now isn't even that bad, and it's much more thematically appropriate (your spell list lets me animate dead...)

Mettle: Always nice to see this.

Bonus Feat: Put in a few more, especially at your dead levels.

Measure of Conviction: Yummy, fluffy, and good! Combine with maneuvers or totemist for ass kicking. One of my favorite additions so far.

Awesome Smiting: The final attack in their full attack.......? That attack literally almost never hits. It's worthless (someone did the math, and it's almost impossible to hit average CR 20 enemies past the initial 2 attacks without significant outside boosts or a natural 20) and that makes an otherwise cool ability awesome. Make it the first attack in the full attack action. Otherwise, this ability isn't worth anything. Thematically, I do understand why you made it the way you did, it's just not really feasible mechanically.

Overall, much better then the PHB paladin and pretty cool. Needs a lot of polishing but it's definitely getting there.

toapat

2012-04-14, 09:28 PM

Empedocles

2012-04-14, 09:38 PM

I'm going to speak in Bold.

Skills: I explicitly left the skillset open ended because this is an unlocked paladin (should have named it templar). and you build your skillset around your chosen ideal or deity.

Okay, but that doesn't mean I should be able to make a rogue equivalent here. Give it a big skill list (one that would normally warrant more then 4 skill points) but don't just let them pick. Please.

Divine Blow: This is better rendered out by a comparison:
A NG paladin uses Axiomatic strike, it gets +Cha mod to Hit, +Level to damage
A LG paladin uses Axiomatic Strike, it gets +Cha Mod+4 to hit, +level to damage, and bypasses chaotic DR.
The NG paladin uses Anarchic Strike
The LG paladin cant use Anarachic Strike
although this does definitely need some cleaning up

I agree. I was just trying to suggest ways to clean it up. The +4 thing is random though...

Lay on Hands: will do

Yay! :smallbiggrin:

Force of Personality + Divine Grace: should specify that these stack

That's the thing...RAW it's impossible to have them stack since once you apply your charisma to your saves...it doesn't matter if you "re-apply" them. Make Force of Personality something like +1/2 your level...just don't have them overlap like that. It looks unprofessional.

Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror: How about +X to hit and +X to AC respectively, with X being half paladin level rounded up

I like. Give a number of times per day it can be activated and a duration (suggested: 1 minute/3 levels, but it's up to you. 1 round/level would make it weaker, but not unbearably so).

Mercy/Cruelty: i left this as rules because of how many effects you could graft into the lay on hands

Sorry. You still need to list them, otherwise it's an obscenely abusable and open ended power.

Spells: Lazyness, i really should get to building out the spell list for paladins, but yes, i want them getting Bladebarrier, and this is an alignment unlocked paladin, letting the blackguards animate dead is fully within your purview.

LOL. And I didn't think about the blackguard. Good point. The thing is, giving them the cleric spell list means anyone playing them will start using the spells as a crutch instead of a cool, flavorful bonus. It needs a spell list.

Bonus Feats: that would put an island lategame of just bonus feats, not sure whether that would be good getting them levles 17-19

Then switch around some abilities, but I think a paladin deserves the feats.

Measure of Conviction: I wanted something to make Divine Blows better, i think the insane part though is if a DW paladin hits with all 4 attacks, thats +80 damage

So? Look at a wizard for christ's sake. Or, if you want a Tier 3 example, an optimized totemist which can deal like 200 damage/round with over +100 to grapple.

Awesome Smiting: There are no saves on this whatsoever, because of that calculation. you get to launch your opponent 130 feet into the air minimum if this connects

It's a capstone. It should be good. Wizard's are creating their own planes with spells like genesis and granting themselves wishes. Almost everything can fly at this point anyways, so the 13d6 points of falling damage probably won't ever come into effect.

toapat

2012-04-14, 10:24 PM

Empedocles

2012-04-14, 10:32 PM

Skills: *cowers in fear*

Force of Personality: Cut for the time being

the +4 is based off of non-paladin smite abilities. although in PnP, the Paladin, Blackguard, and Justiciar of Tyr all add charisma to the attack bonus, everyone else gets a solid +4

The tables, the horror

Auras: changed to 1 minute /2 levels

Bonus Feats: +1 at 7, 13, and 19

point taken

Awesome Smiting now strips flight for one minute

Haha srry I might have come off harsher then I meant to sound. Here's a suggested skill list for the paladin:

{table=header]Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Diplomacy
Heal
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge (religion)
Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
Ride
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Swim
[/table]

You might want to consider Use Magic Device and Tumble also.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-04-14, 11:54 PM

well, this is the first piece of significant Homebrew i have performed. This is a rebuild of paladin to release them from their stupid alignment locking, grant them a few class features that really should be there, and to get a commentary.

I wanted to push them from a T5 upto a T3, although i would be happy just to push them up to a T4
Roger. We see a lot of Paladin builds, and I've done a lot of work on the subject myself, so let's see what we've got.

The Paladin is a divine warrior, who is devout to an idea, any ideal, or a deity. Paladins who serve Deities are highly pious, and hold their deity's holy word as absolute truth. Other Paladins serve ideas, such as Tyranny, Honor, Guardianship, or Malice.
4-in-one? Ok.

Chassis
Looks solid

Class Skills: A paladin can choose any Eight skills to be class skills.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Yeah, I'm with Vilpich on this one. Choosing a skillset based on your deity is well and good, but the class is fairly well-defined in role. I suggest copying the Cleric list and adding Handle Animal, Ride, the basic movement skills (Jump/Climb/Swim), and the standard social skills (Bluff/Diplomacy/Sense Motive). Plenty of options there.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and Martial weapons, as well as all Armor and all shields (Except tower shields). Paladins are also proficient with their Deity's favored weapon, or a single type of weapon of their choice if they do not follow any specific deity.
I don't think there are any deities with an exotic favored weapon, but I may be wrong, so specifying isn't bad. I don't think there's any need to grant a free exotic weapon proficiency for unaligned paladins, though.

Detect Alignments (Sp): At will, a paladin can use Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos, as the spells.
Ok? It's not bad, but I kind of feel like you should have to pick a dominant alignment and stick to it...

Divine Blow (Su): A paladin may once per day, channel the might of an ideal she does not oppose through her weapon. This blow gains the paladin's charisma modifier to her attack bonus, and deals additional damage equal to her paladin level. This strike gains an additional +4 to attack bonus, and bypasses aligned Damage Reduction if the Paladin uses a blow of of an Alignment sharing her convictions. The Divine Blows are Smite Evil (Good aligned), Smite Good (Evil aligned), Axiomatic Strike (Law aligned), Anarchic Strike (Chaotic Aligned). The paladin may use this ability one additional time per day at every fifth level.
Umm... so it's +[4+Charisma] attack, +level to damage, against any foe? X/day? The damage stinks, sad to say, especially compared to something like a Tome of Battle class. Either make it usable a lot more often, make it do a lot more damage, or both. And I highly suggest forcing a paladin to chose what alignment he wants to crusade against-- being able to smite anything but true neutral foes seems a bit weird.

Lay on Hands (Su): Starting at level 2, a paladin can heal or inflict 1d6+her charisma modifier damage per day. For every 2 paladin levels afterwards, Lay on hands deals an additional 1d6 damage and can be used an additional time per day. Good aligned paladins channel Positive energy and use Lay on Hands to heal their allies, and to inflict damage against undead and evil outsiders. Evil paladins channel negative energy and use Lay on Hands to directly damage their enemies, or to heal undead and evil outsiders. Neutral paladins may choose to use Lay on Hands as either a positive or negative energy effect.

Lay on Hands is a Free action when the paladin uses it on herself, and a Swift action when used on a friendly ally. When used offensively, The paladin must succeed a melee touch attack in order for the lay on hands to take effect, if the paladin fails, the Lay on Hands has no effect and the lay on hands is not consumed for the day. A paladin must have one hand free in order to use Lay on Hands.
As written, this is a lot more powerfully offensively than Smite X, although that's not bad-- it's probably about right, power-wise, but it feels weird. Free action healing is probably too much, though-- try Swift on self, Move on ally, and Standard on an enemy. (RAW here, Neutral paladins get twice as many options, and using it on a foe is not an action.)

Divine Grace (Su): A paladin applies her Charisma Modifier, if positive, to her saves.
I certainly hope you have a positive Charisma modifier in this class. :smalltongue:

Aura of Courage/Aura of Terror (Su): Beginning at third level a paladin becomes immune to fear, and a Good aligned Paladin inspires courage in her allies, while an Evil aligned Paladin causes her opponents to quake in fear. Aura of Courage grants to allies within 10 feet of the paladin a +2 Moral bonus to attack rolls. Aura of Terror causes allies within 10 feet of the paladin to take a +2 Moral bonus to armor class. The bonus from a paladin's arua increases by +1 every 2 paladin levels afterwards.
The paladin can manifest their aura for 1 minute per 2 paladin levels a day.
Neutral paladins select one aura to use, and only through miraculous intervention may change their presence.
Aura of Terror gives a bonus to AC? :smallconfused: It would be a lot more fitting to make it inflict an attack penalty to nearby enemies. The duration wording could use a bit of work-- try "5 rounds per paladin level, split up however the paladin sees fit. Activating or deactivating an Aura is a swift action." Otherwise, seems good.

Mercies and Cruelties (Su): Each paladin has their own worldviews, as well as their own personal view of the deity they serve if they serve one. This is most prominently noticeable in how a paladin’s lay on hands ability changes over time. At Every Fourth level, a good paladin chooses one effect that will benefit a target, such as curing a disease, or lifting a curse. Evil paladins wish to inflict worse harm upon their enemies, and thus may inflict curses, diseases, or blinding those who suffer the paladin’s touch. Mercies and Cruelties are permanent modifiers to the Lay on Hands Ability. Mercies will always be applied to a Lay on Hands used to heal a target, while Cruelties are always applied to a damaging Lay on Hands.
Neutral Paladins may take a Mercy or Cruelty at every fourth level, but they can not take both a mercy and a cruelty.

(Mercies and Cruelties are spells or metamagics that are combined into Lay on Hands. In order to create one, a beneficial or harmful non-healing, non-dirrect-damage spell is chosen. The spell must be equal to or below the highest spell level a paladin knows of, although the paladin does not need to know the spell. Any metamagic used can not use a spell slot modifier greater then Highest spell level - 1. If a spell used this way has a duration, that duration is applied as cast by a caster of half the paladin's level, rounded down.)
Cool idea, but the wording could use some clarification. Do targets get a save, or can I touch-attack-hold person with near-automatic success?

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): All Paladins can turn or rebuke undead as though they are a cleric 2 levels lower. See Turn or Rebuke Undead for rules governing your paladin’s use of turn or rebuke.
I suggest cleric-3, putting you at effective cleric level 1 when you get the ability.

Paladin Spells: A paladin upon reaching fourth level is able to pray for spells each day. These spells are taken from the Cleric spell list.
To prepare and cast spells, a paladin must have a Charisma of 10+the spell level. The saves of a Paladin’s spells are equal to 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Charisma modifier.
Paladins gain additional spell slots for having a high charisma. Paladins cast Spells with a caster level equal to two thirds their paladin level, rounded down.
Paladins Must spend an hour in meditation or prayer to their deity, during which time they ask for guidance and prepare spells for the day.
Ok. Charisma for casting is good. Spells up to 6th level is good, although I suppose it runs the risk of turning him into a sort of cleric-lite. The 2/3 caster level thing is kind of silly, though. Either set it to class level -3, so you have CL 1 when you first get spells, or let it be full class level.

Good, Chaotic, Evil, Lawful Spells: A Paladin’s alignment may restrict her from access to spells as a result in moral and ethical beliefs, or because the spell conflicts with the alignment of the paladin’s deity.
Ok.

Paladin Domain: A paladin also at 4th level gains access to the spells of a single cleric domain. The paladin prepares spells of this domain as though the spell level was equal to 2/3s normal, rounded up. This domain must be under the jurisdiction of the Paladin's patron deity if the paladin serves a deity.
So... they can get 9th level domain spells as 6th level paladin spells? Eh... I'd leave the restriction at 6th level. There are some really good 9th level domain spells (out of the PHB, you can get Shapechange, Miracle, Disjunction, Time Stop, and all of the 9th level Save-or-Dies) which a paladin has no reason to be casting. I like the idea of granting a domain, though.

Paladin Mount: Same as always (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Paladin%27s_Mount)
Yup.

Mettle (Su): The Paladin's conviction is so strong, that she is able to shrug off magical effects that would harm her. If a Paladin makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.
Yup.

Improved Mettle (Su):As with Mettle, but the Paladin also receives half damage on a failed Fortitude save, or partial damage on a failed Will save.
This is... a dangerously good ability. Possibly even too good.

Bonus Feats: At sixth level, and every sixth level afterwards, as well as seventh level, and every sixth level afterwards, a paladin recieves a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat of the paladin's choosing, and she is considered a Fighter for any feat with which they are prerequisite.
I'd limit it to Fighter bonus feats, [Divine] feats, and any feat involving Smite or Lay on Hands. Any feat seems a bit to far-reaching. I would also strongly urge you to make the progression a bit more regular.

Measure of Conviction (Ex): The paladins conviction strengthens, and she is now able to perform multiple attacks with a single use of her divine blow. Once activated, all bonuses of Divine blow apply until the beginning of the paladin's next turn.
Nice upgrade. Mitigates a lot of what I said about damage potential before, although it's still a bit low, unless you manage to pull off TWF.

Awesome Smiting (Su): The final attack a paladin makes in their full attack action is hypercharged with divine power. If this attack connects, the target is incapable of flight for one minute, and is knocked flying in a straight line for 10 feet per paladin level in a direction of the paladin's choosing. When the Opponent lands, it falls prone. If any object obstructs the path of the opponent, the object and opponent each are dealt 1d6 per 2 paladin levels. If damage dealt to the object would destroy the object and ends its movement in the space formerly occupied by the obstruction. Otherwise the opponent lands in a space adjacent to the obstruction.
Pretty sweet ability, but-- as Vilpich noted-- leaving it as the last action means it'll almost never come up in a game. There are also times when it would be bad to have the knockback occur. I would make it usable as part of a Divine Blow, replacing the normal bonus damage.

The Paladin's Code: All paladins must follow a code. This code can be self defined, or be that of the paladin's Patron deity. Severe or deliberate violation of this code results in the paladin immediately being struck by divine lightning, which destroys body, soul, and possessions.

Divinely Obliterated Paladins: The only way to raise a Paladin after they violate their code of conduct is through a Miracle spell. If the paladin followed a patron deity, the caster of the Miracle spell must perform a DC 20-(Months Dead) Diplomacy check in order to convince the Deity to grant the paladin a second chance. Otherwise the cleric must spend 1000 experience and 25000gp worth of diamond dust.
Errr...no. Sorry, but no. This is way too harsh. No paladin player is going to put anything even remotely interesting in their code, because the penalty for violating it is instant annihilation. You can't roleplay around the gray areas for fear of the DM instakilling you. No warning, no second chances, just BAM! Dead, and beyond recovery of anything but high-level parties.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm not going to lie-- this is a dealbreaker. Much as I love paladins, I would never play a class with a "feature" like this one. The normal paladin-falling is bad enough, but at least there's a chance for redemption. This is just... no. Take away spells and supernatural abilities, yes. Require deeds beyond just having your buddy cast atonement, absolutely. But no rules should ever code for the instant, nearly-irrevocable killing of a player's character for a single mistake.

Feats:
Exalted Blow: Your Divine Blows strikes with greater Conviction.
Prerequisite: Paladin Divine Blow
Benefit: Neutral paladins now gain +4 to hit bonus and bypass damage reduction with their Divine Blow. Aligned Paladins deal +1d6 damage with their Divine Blow.
Special: Paladins may select this feat multiple times, its effects stack.

Extra Conviction: You can perform extra Divine blows.
Prerequisite: Paladin Divine Blow
Benefit: You may use your Divine blow ability 2 more times a day.
Both look fine.

Overall, it's solid. There are weird bits here and there, but you're in the ballpark. The 6th level spells bump it up a tier all by themselves, and all the other class abilities get a nice boost. There are 5 dead/nearly dead levels that could use plugging, and you don't get much really new at higher levels, but those are pretty minor quibbles.

toapat

2012-04-15, 01:31 AM

Roger. We see a lot of Paladin builds, and I've done a lot of work on the subject myself, so let's see what we've got.

4-in-one? Ok.

Looks solid

Yeah, I'm with Vilpich on this one. Choosing a skillset based on your deity is well and good, but the class is fairly well-defined in role. I suggest copying the Cleric list and adding Handle Animal, Ride, the basic movement skills (Jump/Climb/Swim), and the standard social skills (Bluff/Diplomacy/Sense Motive). Plenty of options there.

I don't think there are any deities with an exotic favored weapon, but I may be wrong, so specifying isn't bad. I don't think there's any need to grant a free exotic weapon proficiency for unaligned paladins, though.

Ok? It's not bad, but I kind of feel like you should have to pick a dominant alignment and stick to it...

Umm... so it's +[4+Charisma] attack, +level to damage, against any foe? X/day? The damage stinks, sad to say, especially compared to something like a Tome of Battle class. Either make it usable a lot more often, make it do a lot more damage, or both. And I highly suggest forcing a paladin to chose what alignment he wants to crusade against-- being able to smite anything but true neutral foes seems a bit weird.

As written, this is a lot more powerfully offensively than Smite X, although that's not bad-- it's probably about right, power-wise, but it feels weird. Free action healing is probably too much, though-- try Swift on self, Move on ally, and Standard on an enemy. (RAW here, Neutral paladins get twice as many options, and using it on a foe is not an action.)

I certainly hope you have a positive Charisma modifier in this class. :smalltongue:

Aura of Terror gives a bonus to AC? :smallconfused: It would be a lot more fitting to make it inflict an attack penalty to nearby enemies. The duration wording could use a bit of work-- try "5 rounds per paladin level, split up however the paladin sees fit. Activating or deactivating an Aura is a swift action." Otherwise, seems good.

Cool idea, but the wording could use some clarification. Do targets get a save, or can I touch-attack-hold person with near-automatic success?

I suggest cleric-3, putting you at effective cleric level 1 when you get the ability.

Ok. Charisma for casting is good. Spells up to 6th level is good, although I suppose it runs the risk of turning him into a sort of cleric-lite. The 2/3 caster level thing is kind of silly, though. Either set it to class level -3, so you have CL 1 when you first get spells, or let it be full class level.

Ok.

So... they can get 9th level domain spells as 6th level paladin spells? Eh... I'd leave the restriction at 6th level. There are some really good 9th level domain spells (out of the PHB, you can get Shapechange, Miracle, Disjunction, Time Stop, and all of the 9th level Save-or-Dies) which a paladin has no reason to be casting. I like the idea of granting a domain, though.

Yup.

Yup.

This is... a dangerously good ability. Possibly even too good.

I'd limit it to Fighter bonus feats, [Divine] feats, and any feat involving Smite or Lay on Hands. Any feat seems a bit to far-reaching. I would also strongly urge you to make the progression a bit more regular.

Nice upgrade. Mitigates a lot of what I said about damage potential before, although it's still a bit low, unless you manage to pull off TWF.

Pretty sweet ability, but-- as Vilpich noted-- leaving it as the last action means it'll almost never come up in a game. There are also times when it would be bad to have the knockback occur. I would make it usable as part of a Divine Blow, replacing the normal bonus damage.

Errr...no. Sorry, but no. This is way too harsh. No paladin player is going to put anything even remotely interesting in their code, because the penalty for violating it is instant annihilation. You can't roleplay around the gray areas for fear of the DM instakilling you. No warning, no second chances, just BAM! Dead, and beyond recovery of anything but high-level parties.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm not going to lie-- this is a dealbreaker. Much as I love paladins, I would never play a class with a "feature" like this one. The normal paladin-falling is bad enough, but at least there's a chance for redemption. This is just... no. Take away spells and supernatural abilities, yes. Require deeds beyond just having your buddy cast atonement, absolutely. But no rules should ever code for the instant, nearly-irrevocable killing of a player's character for a single mistake.

You go into this looking at it as the 4 cardinal alignments, when its written without alignment locking at all.

Already did

Eilistraee has Bastard-sword as her favored Weapon.

That was there, then got cut because its wording not worth it. so you get omnicience in relation to alignment, so? you dont have to outright murder the dude now

Divine blow specifies you cant use one that conflicts with your alignment

its still not limitless or gaurenteed healing, just because you get all those uses doesnt mean you get them to heal however much you want.

bonus to AC or penalty to attack bonus, functionally just becomes redundant with bard.

DM fiat says roll again

At -3 to cleric level for turn, it truly becomes only fuel for DMM, while spellcasting for a paladin normally is half paladin level, the boost is to reasonably explain why they get +2 spell levels. Cleric spell list is only lazyness to not dredge through the entire collection of books i have for the lists. although you do end up with a 9th level spell 1 level early, even if it is once a day.

Awesome smite doesnt specify you are limited to the compass directions. dont want them flying 3 turns away? hammer them into the dirt. the ability has no saving throws specifically to make use of that one lucky hit.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-04-15, 10:54 AM

You go into this looking at it as the 4 cardinal alignments, when its written without alignment locking at all.
I'm not denying that the alignment system is bad, but it's hard to write a class like this one without

Eilistraee has Bastard-sword as her favored Weapon.
Ok. Still no need for the free EWP for non-aligned paladins.

That was there, then got cut because its wording not worth it. so you get omnicience in relation to alignment, so? you dont have to outright murder the dude now

Divine blow specifies you cant use one that conflicts with your alignment
<shrug> You might want to make those clear.

its still not limitless or gaurenteed healing, just because you get all those uses doesnt mean you get them to heal however much you want.
True, but it's a lot of healing, and you probably shouldn't just be able to mainline as much as you want.

bonus to AC or penalty to attack bonus, functionally just becomes redundant with bard.
Mechanically, they're almost the same-- but the bonus to nearby allies' AC would apply to, say, ranged attacks against the from enemies way outside the range of your aura. Plus... Aura of Terror. Why does that help your allies? And you should never dismiss a class feature just because someone else does it better. Not every party has a bard, after all.

DM fiat says roll again
Not sure what this is in response to, but... rules need to be explicit whenever possible. A class that relies on DM fiat to function is bad, whether that means boosting a poor class or nerfing a strong one.

At -3 to cleric level for turn, it truly becomes only fuel for DMM, while spellcasting for a paladin normally is half paladin level, the boost is to reasonably explain why they get +2 spell levels. Cleric spell list is only lazyness to not dredge through the entire collection of books i have for the lists. although you do end up with a 9th level spell 1 level early, even if it is once a day.
Level-3 is on par with or slightly better than 2/3 level (the first will max out at CL 17, the latter at CL 15)-- it's just easier to calculate, and means that you don't start with a CL of 2 or 3. If you think that it's not enough to make Turn Undead worthwhile, then let it be full class level-- it's really not a big deal. Either way, look for paladins to take Practiced Spellcaster as soon as possible to get their CL up to full.
I've got no real problem with using the cleric list, but I repeat my worry about 9th level spells as 6th level. If preparing works like a cleric's does, by 20th level I can probably prepare 4-5 of them a day. But worse, having 9th level spells on a list as 6th level spells has... negative implications when interacting with other classes, like the Archivist.

Awesome smite doesnt specify you are limited to the compass directions. dont want them flying 3 turns away? hammer them into the dirt. the ability has no saving throws specifically to make use of that one lucky hit.
Not explicitly, no, but the implication to abilities like this almost is a straight line parallel to the ground. You also need to address the point that this is a cool and useful ability that you cannot choose to activate, which takes away a lot, in my mind.

You also need to address the Code there. Sorry if I seem rude, but... arbitrary, unarguable instant death is not good.

toapat

2012-04-16, 12:34 AM

Adjusted Spells per day

Added skill list

Changed Bonus Feat progression

Added Paladin spell list

Added alternate trigger for Awesome Smiting, increased damage dealt by Awesome Smiting.

Mercies and Cruelties core chart to be added

Empedocles

2012-04-16, 12:40 AM

toapat

2012-04-16, 01:37 PM

Added divine health to first post after forgetting it is there.

Added tumble

toapat

2012-04-20, 07:02 PM

Added flavor and renamed to templar

Empedocles

2012-04-20, 07:46 PM

Can I suggest that you fill in your dead levels? Dead levels in general are, after all, the bane of homebrewed non-casters....

toapat

2012-04-20, 08:10 PM

Can I suggest that you fill in your dead levels? Dead levels in general are, after all, the bane of homebrewed non-casters....

My problem with filling in those dead levels is, Filler is filler, and fun should come before completely filled abilities lists

asto dead levels, only lvl 13 of the ones without anything in the class abilities column is actually dead, as lvl 11 you get your 4th level spells, while lvl 17 gets you your final domain slot

Empedocles

2012-04-20, 08:44 PM

My problem with filling in those dead levels is, Filler is filler, and fun should come before completely filled abilities lists

asto dead levels, only lvl 13 of the ones without anything in the class abilities column is actually dead, as lvl 11 you get your 4th level spells, while lvl 17 gets you your final domain slot

You only get the 4th level spell slot at 14th level if you have quite a high charisma. That being said, filler has negative connotations that are inappropriate for good class abilities that get rid of dead levels. If it's well designed and neat, even if it's not very good, then it doesn't feel like filler. It's like "Oh! Cool, I get to do this.

toapat

2012-04-20, 10:20 PM

would charging smite be rediculous?

Empedocles

2012-04-20, 10:26 PM

would charging smite be rediculous?

IMO not really, and it fits the archetype.

toapat

2012-04-20, 10:44 PM

IMO not really, and it fits the archetype.

Divine Charge added to 13th level

T.G. Oskar

2012-04-21, 06:33 PM

I've seen the Templar for a bit (I recall there was an earlier version of it), and I decided to do a random check-up.

The first thing that strikes me odd is the inclusion of Use Magic Device. Speaking from experience, the skill must fit the class, and UMD is not just a powerful ability, but one that works best on certain classes. A Rogue can use it because it has a bit of the "jack of all trades" flavor and since it can't use magic, it uses magic items instead to compensate. A Bard follows the same trait, except they get actual magical ability. Artificers and Warlocks too, as one works with magic without being strictly a magician, and the other has a different form of magic power. On the Templar, however, I find a poor fit on the skill, other than "it's really good". Sure, the Templar has access to some degree of magical ability, but it's a melee combatant first and foremost, and the kind of spellcaster it represents really doesn't fit with fireballs and fogs of acid and webs and whatnot.

Second is insisting that Divine Blow (essentially Smite Evil, but somewhat divorced from alignment) should be a per-day ability rather than a per-encounter ability. Certainly, per-encounter abilities are a bit iffy, so you can define how they work, but for a single attack, it's really not the best idea. I know that there's an option to work that Divine Blow as a full attack action rather than a single attack, which might justify a per-day ability (and even then, it's debatable), but as it stands, it would work better as a per-encounter ability. Also, and I've found this to be always useful: damage should be somewhat higher at 1st level. 5+class level is a good starting point, as it scales properly.

Awesome Smiting sounds suspiciously similar.

I see you've applied the Lay on Hands method from Pathfinder, including the Mercies and/or Cruelties. However, I see that Lay on Hands is somewhat focused on Good and Evil, and leaves nothing to Law and/or Chaos. I would propose a hybrid between 3.5 Lay on Hands and PF Lay on Hands, where the former would be the Law version (fixed healing per day equivalent to 3-4 points per two class levels plus Charisma modifier, usable as per PF Lay on Hands), whereas the latter would be the Chaotic version (as it leaves something to chance). Can't say much about Mercies and Cruelties, however.

I see a lot of times the expansion of Paladin spellcasting (here referring to the Paladin class itself, not only this one) from 4 levels to 6 levels, which I find at times questionable. Oftentimes, if you get spellcasting up to 6 levels, you end up getting medium progression on your attack bonus (notice Bards and Psychic Warriors, which both get medium progression). A combination of delayed spellcasting AND 6 levels of spells really doesn't cut it. It's...confusing at best, as you get a very delayed spell progression. Consider that some spells lose their charm a LOT (example: Dispel Magic, gained at 9th level with good Charisma and 10th level at the very best, only has a 2 level life expectancy before any spellcaster of your level can beat it). I'd advice first figuring out whether the Templar works best with 4 or 6 levels, whether the plethora of spells you get from Cleric is really worthwhile (some spells aren't so fitting, and I'd include stuff such as Consecrate, Desecrate, Repel Vermin, Insect Plague and whatnot), and finally at what moment should they gain their spellcasting (for example, if you're going to follow the 6-level spellcasting progression, it's to be expected that they gain their spells at 1st level rather than 4th, if only because their progression will be slower; that way, they gain better and more useful spells faster but not as fast as other spellcasters). Good to see the full Cleric spell list, through I'd consider raiding the Bard AND Sorc/Wizard spell list for some nice goodies (I'd advice for Heroism, Good Hope and Greater Heroism, as they fit the Paladin theme). If going for 4-level spellcasting, consider downgrading some of the Templar's spells if it doesn't hurt them (Dispel Magic is the ur-example, as getting it at 7th level makes it somewhat still worthwhile as you wait for Greater Dispel Magic after 11th level).

Now, the biggest qualm I have with the piece of 'brew.
Divinely Obliterated Templar

...

...

...

No. Just...no. For goodness sakes, no.

Losing your templar abilities for not following the Code properly is a bad idea. Destroying your character because of some slights is worse than an insult. No player character should be forced to risk annihilation just because your deity ordered you to kill a puppy just for fun. This is doubly bad when the DM loves to make Paladins fall, in which case he'll find sadistically hilarious to see Templars blow to smithereens just because. That example where you have to choose whether to kill an innocent to save the world or doom the world but save the innocent's life? Listen to the DM saying "make one wrong step, and you go BOOOM!! HEEHEEEHeeeheeheeEEEE!!"

Remove it post-haste. It's unfair, it's bad, it makes no sense, and it just begs for the Templar to be punished. This is not a "pretty please" request, this is as close as an order as I can give you without infringing on your free will. Seriously. Well, not seriously, but you can figure I don't like the idea whatsoever. Don't feel offended by it, but sometimes humor can be dark.

Story Time

2012-04-22, 08:58 AM

...too sleepy to post...

The Templar's Code: All Templar must follow a code. This code can be self defined, or be that of the Templar's Patron deity. Severe and deliberate violation of this code results in the Templar immediately being struck by divine lightning, which destroys body, soul, and possessions.

...normally wouldn't make such an issue of this, but I like this. When I think of a paladin with a connection to a higher...entity, this is the kind of thing that I think of. A paladin's willful and non-coerced betrayal of their code -- a betrayal of their relationship with their deity -- should result in zap.

But...since it is a home-brew class for a game? I recommend using the wording, "which destroys their physical body," or possibly, "destroys their physical body and possessions." I would also add, "The templar's choice to violate their code ( and betray their deity ) must be made willfully and can not be in response to mundane coercion or other super-natural influence."

It's just an idea. The reason why I put those thoughts out there is that a character won't learn anything if their spirit is crushed. Okay, sure, it's a perfect judgement in some senses, but for a game it's more fun to role-play a character that got to go to another plane of existence for a while and learn why violating their code ( pledge / oath ) was wrong.

I comment on this for more than one reason. It'd be helpful to know just exactly what the code is. You know, is it a refusal to eat cheese on Tuesdays? If so, then zap is probably easy-ish to avoid. I'd like to recommend that some example codes be provided, probably with some flavorful text, to help the audience see and feel why zap is the appropriate response to the betrayal of the code.

...Also, that's a lot of work to make that class. Good dedication. Keep refining it.

toapat

2012-04-22, 08:37 PM

...too sleepy to post...

...normally wouldn't make such an issue of this, but I like this. When I think of a paladin with a connection to a higher...entity, this is the kind of thing that I think of. A paladin's willful and non-coerced betrayal of their code -- a betrayal of their relationship with their deity -- should result in zap.

But...since it is a home-brew class for a game? I recommend using the wording, "which destroys their physical body," or possibly, "destroys their physical body and possessions." I would also add, "The templar's choice to violate their code ( and betray their deity ) must be made willfully and can not be in response to mundane coercion or other super-natural influence."

It's just an idea. The reason why I put those thoughts out there is that a character won't learn anything if their spirit is crushed. Okay, sure, it's a perfect judgement in some senses, but for a game it's more fun to role-play a character that got to go to another plane of existence for a while and learn why violating their code ( pledge / oath ) was wrong.

I comment on this for more than one reason. It'd be helpful to know just exactly what the code is. You know, is it a refusal to eat cheese on Tuesdays? If so, then zap is probably easy-ish to avoid. I'd like to recommend that some example codes be provided, probably with some flavorful text, to help the audience see and feel why zap is the appropriate response to the betrayal of the code.

...Also, that's a lot of work to make that class. Good dedication. Keep refining it.

Thanks for not lambasting the code's severity in punishment, i edited when continued assault against it made me check it over to ensure it is the specific trigger i wanted, which it wasnt. the soul irradication is intentional though, as i defined this paladin replacement so loosely that the code should be rather sever in its implication.

asto the code, it has to be defined on a Templar by Templar basis, for instance, a CG Templar of Love must not commit an act of pure hatred (although this can be bent, as they can hate some dude who wants to blow up the world. "I like the world, its where i keep my stuff").
An LE Templar of Tyranny can not yield leadership unless those they yield to are more powerful, and they will be destroyed for showing an act of mercy off the battlefield, as on the battlefield, letting his enemies live would allow him to oppress them later.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-04-22, 08:58 PM

[QUOTE=toapat;13115402]Thanks for not lambasting the code's severity in punishment, i edited when continued assault against it...[QUOTE]
Sorry if you feel "assaulted." I don't mean to be browbeating you, and I doubt anyone else did either. I admit that I'm a big fan of the paladin class, see a lot of homebrewed fixes, and have some pretty strong feelings about how they should go, but... This is, of course, your work and you're free to structure it however you want. One of the most important workshopping skills to learn is when to ignore criticism.

That being said, knowing when NOT to ignore criticism is important too, and when multiple people start saying the same thing... in such strong terms... especially when some of them have done their own work on paladinhttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554 revisions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015#post12150015)... well...

I think the here is why you gave such a harsh penalty for betraying your code. You talk about a flexible code based on your character's beliefs and alignment and that's all great... but it doesn't address the Tarrasque in the room. You've never really addressed the criticism about this specific aspect, but you obviously feel strongly about it, and I'm curious as to why.

Story Time

2012-04-22, 09:42 PM

Kind of adding to what Grod is saying...

What we want to know is how flexible the code is. Defining it loosely is a bad thing. We want to know precisely and exactly the ways that a Templar can bend around their code.

That's what I want, at least. If you could tell me in the class feature itself, that'd be great. :smallsmile:

As for the other thing...I'll just not talk about it...

toapat

2012-04-22, 09:44 PM

have done their own work on paladinhttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554 revisions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12150015#post12150015).

Invalidates your criticism of another person's work on the topic, as it solidifies your opinion into subconscious fact until proven otherwise. You and T.G. oskar failed to give unbiased opinions (I cant see justification in upfront damage, considering how little anyone is doing. Find me someone who averages 12.5 damage per swing at lvl 1), i only checked because it was pretty obvious that what i thought, and what he read, were very different.

A mistake in the wording reintroduced the **** dm problem, i had the self editor problem there, and thought it was either Deliberate And severe, or repeated violations. The divine lightning was included Specifically to disallow the abuse of non-existant errata for blackguard and the LE/CE paladin varients from UA

The Templar Chooses an idea or a deity to Champion. Deity codes are defined (loosely) in their entries in the various sourcebooks, while Idea/Ideal codes are defined by what makes sense for the Idea/Ideal championed. If you are a Templar of Hope, you dont just walk into a town Square and behead the local mayor unless hes a PoS

T.G. Oskar

2012-04-22, 09:53 PM

Thanks for not lambasting the code's severity in punishment, i edited when continued assault against it made me check it over to ensure it is the specific trigger i wanted, which it wasnt. the soul irradication is intentional though, as i defined this paladin replacement so loosely that the code should be rather sever in its implication.

asto the code, it has to be defined on a Templar by Templar basis, for instance, a CG Templar of Love must not commit an act of pure hatred (although this can be bent, as they can hate some dude who wants to blow up the world. "I like the world, its where i keep my stuff").
An LE Templar of Tyranny can not yield leadership unless those they yield to are more powerful, and they will be destroyed for showing an act of mercy off the battlefield, as on the battlefield, letting his enemies live would allow him to oppress them later.

The first thing I learned when making 'brew was that roleplaying fluff should never be enforced mechanically, but rather encouraged. This is important, because everything that's written down as a rule is meant to be followed as a rule, and if it's meant for fluff, then it's a bit troubling when you attempt to bend the fluff to suit your desired character.

Hence, why I oppose this iteration of the code. Nothing merits such a severe penalty, much less one that essentially means "your character is erased from existence". That is, IMO, one of the worst penalties, and begs the question of whom is so masochistic so as to follow a code with such a severe penalty. A loose code is a magnificent tool for roleplaying, but the problem lies in the mechanical penalties.

The path of the Paladin, or in this case the Templar, is too straight and narrow to merit such a punishment. Perhaps Evil gods, particularly those who revel in slaughter, might be jerks that like to make their Templars suffer the punishment of a code that may or may not be arbitrarily changed, but Good gods offering such a punishment really doesn't fit, particularly Chaotic or Neutral Good gods. One of the merits of playing a Paladin, a Templar, or a character following a strict code is roleplaying the personal consequences of adherence to the code. The mechanical penalty of losing your abilities was a way to enforce that, but years of play have revealed that such a penalty actually removes some of the fun of roleplaying the consequences.

This is mostly personal, but it can apply to anyone: one of the many times I played a Paladin (three thus far), I only barely did heroic acts. I love playing Paladins, and part of it is because they're the ones that are meant to be heroic when the other adventurers were focused on riches and fame, to really be the good guy. I didn't feel comfortable playing as him, if only because I was brooding a lot on how my actions could be harshly punished, and the ever-looming idea of the DM asking "is that really what a Paladin would do?" Sure, it had some very nice stuff: how it entered the Knights Hospitaller in that world, his discovery of many versions of whom he considered his one true love, how by means of dice and chance he was the only one who could face the "season's" Big Bad, sacrificing his life so that others could survive and then hearing the Chaotic Neutral Warblade that only looks for himself and who's the best warrior around saying "he's a better Paladin that you could ever be" to an arrogant and condescending Paladin, and how he eventually vanquished his fears and became a Fist of Raziel; but it had some equally bothersome parts (such as hanging with a group of adventurers that were only in for themselves and who really pushed his code and his patience to the limit, or ending up being the puppet of a LN emperor whom at times seemed more Evil than Good). In another moment, I heard words that not only chilled me to the core, but also made every single player look at me with that gaze that meant "you're screwed": "Do you think that's the thing you as a Paladin would do?"

The act? Honoring the last request of a mentor to sacrifice himself to save a village. I was so worried about breaking that oath that I missed a really HUGE and possibly heroic act. And all of that because the last battle was so difficult, wading in without powers would be essentially a massacre.

Now, imagine the looming possibility that doing something wrong doesn't just means you lose your powers, but you go straight to Oblivion. Is that really fair? Sure, you can say "that's what you get when you accepted being a Templar", but sometimes, it's not really fair.

A LG Templar trapped in the dilemma of "the lesser of two evils"; no matter what you do, unless you're extremely wise, both actions will condemn you. Poof, the paragon of Lawful Goodness is now ashes.

A CG Templar, in front of a cruel and unfair act, is forced to remain silent rather than act and speak aloud, because the lives of many others are at stake. If she doesn't speak, she turns into ashes because she allowed unfair, unjust and Evil rule to continue; she speaks, and she might survive, but perhaps the Rebellion is doomed because you inadvertently revealed the spies, which THEN will be captured and perhaps not as resilient as you. Oh, and you're probably just as dead, but hey, maybe the Rebellion will...oh, right, the Rebellion is doomed. Good luck trying to find who revives you.

Let's go to LE, then! How about the Evil Overlord's List, for starters? An act of mercy to a mook in order to ensure unyielding loyalty, so that such a mook doesn't become the executioner of your carefully established realm? Of course not, you'll be turned to ashes if you do! What is that thing called "mercy", if not an act of weakness? But of course, an act of mercy can be used for Evil actions, if only because being Evil to the rest and good (note, not GOOD, but merely decent) to your peers doesn't mean you're tempted to be good, or going the Noble Demon path. No; the most devious and cruel LE villains can do acts of great mercy. Just...look at Tarquin! Perfect example of a LE villain who would be turned into ashes because of his tactical shows of mercy. Unless you can consider that act not really merciful but something else, but then again thats pushing Lawful to the limits and probably acting like LN, which means...yeah, poof.

Let's not go to CE, then. Considering what most people think of Chaotic Evil, nothing short of a rambling psychopath will keep you alive.

Now, you mention that the code should be loose enough and worked with the DM, and that's...actually great! I wouldn't oppose to that; quite the contrary, it's something I'm in agreement with. Yet, sometimes, even an apparently relaxed and "open" code can lead into a Catch-22 which the DM has probably no other choice but to execute. Or, there's the idea that the deity or agent of the specific alignment might ignore those Catch-22 as oversights because of impossibilities, so as to relax the player (and thus the character) a bit, but to what extent? Sometimes, that Catch-22 is just what the story needs to spice things up, but the player is unable to go with it. Should you punish the player because you feel as a DM that the story would benefit from a clever response to that seemingly impossible task, while the player is so scared of his actions he simply...stays there and refuses to do anything, in hopes his deity will intercede or something?

Note that, in all moments, I haven't really pushed my 'brewer credentials. Sure, I speak to you as a fellow 'brewer, but while I might sound a bit harsh, I don't do it from the impression that I'm a better 'brewer than you are. In fact, someone else pushed my credentials on my behalf, something I usually don't like, because I don't consider myself with any more authority than aspiring or established 'brewers. But, I speak to you as a player, as a DM and as a fan, and I guess all four parts of me agree that that degree of punishment is really asking for trouble. I give you that advice (and I think I was emphatic in the term "advice") because I really don't consider that unfairly punishing a player because of a mistake or perhaps a slight, or even a twist to his/her character that could really build up an impressive story ends up with having to roll up a new guy to play. Watching that may repel many people who might end up liking your 'brew, but perhaps not that part, and who may not have the flexibility to negate that part of the rules. IMO, it will repel not just those who want a class between the 3.5 Paladin and the PF Paladin, except not locked to alignment and with better spellcasting and some decent abilities (because the punishment for violating the Code is too brutal), but perhaps also those who attempt to play it, because nothing is worse than having your character be completely destroyed because of a bad roll. You might attract those who are fans of Paranoia or old-school guys who like Gygaxian-esque dungeons, or who want someone decent enough for the Tomb of Horrors. Maybe I might be wrong, who knows, but even if I didn't made an extensive retooling to the Paladin, I might cringe at seeing that extreme punishment.

I'm of the belief that no amount of mechanics justifies a harsh Code OR a harsher punishment, much less having an extreme punishment for a loose Code. IMO, punishments should be the realm of the DM, in which the emphasis should be on the effort of staying in the straight and narrow, rather than following such a path out of fear. IMO, that draconian punishment is befitting of subservient LE Templars, but it would imply the lack of CG Templars because a strict Code seems contrary to Chaotic individuals (regardless of how "loose" it may be). Thus, if not as advice at least as a request: consider dealing in one way or another with the harshness of the punishment. Specify which conditions merit a reprimand, which are grounds for harsher punishment (such as the removal of powers) and which merit annihilation, or make it an optional trait, or a clever way to handle it. However, in the way it's presented, even if you like the idea, you have to consider that many others won't, and perhaps won't be as vocal (or maybe more so) than I am. And, if you're showcasing your work, you have to expect harsh but fair critique, as the idea is to refine your work so that others may consider using it (I'm of the belief that the DMG's blurb about classes and the latter DMG II's blurb on prestige classes is misguiding, as most of the times published material is no better than fine pieces of 'brew coming from the minds of even inexperienced players). Consider playing with the advice; I'd be more surprised to see a clever response to the problem than you saying "yeah, you're right, I'll do what you say", if only because the former answer means you've considered the advice and decided to work with it, even if the end response is not what I expect. That makes you consider the critique of others but still makes the 'brew undoubtedly yours.

toapat

2012-04-22, 10:25 PM

Im going to point out that you do not champion an alignment unless you want to champion an alignment (and are a complete masochist, like the PHB paladin)
Love is definitely a Chaotic aligned idea (arguably good though, because it has the opposite of Hatred), while Tyranny is used as an example because LE is rather hard to come up with as an actual Champion an Idea alignment, Conquest comes to mind, and seems like it would be better for an LE example (Show mercy to those defeated, shoot the hero, Evil Overlord's Handbook stuff).

added in an ultimatum clause, considering that again, while i did write that section, i didnt want it to be abusable.

the Catch 22 thing is going to come up no matter what if you play a class that relies on a code

i had actually already read through your entire paladin rewrite, while good, it came off as rather less fun then i wanted.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-04-22, 10:49 PM

Invalidates your criticism of another person's work on the topic, as it solidifies your opinion into subconscious fact until proven otherwise. You and T.G. oskar failed to give unbiased opinions (I cant see justification in upfront damage, considering how little anyone is doing. Find me someone who averages 12.5 damage per swing at lvl 1), i only checked because it was pretty obvious that what i thought, and what he read, were very different.

Because I've thought about the subject before, my opinion is invalid?

To address the point about damage directly... Half-orc barbarian gives us a pretty easy 18 strength at 1st level. Rage brings that up to 22b. With a two-handed weapon-- say, a greataxe-- we're hitting for d12+9, or an average of 15.5. And this is before power attack, mind you. Even without rage, a +4 strength modifier and a two-handed greataxe come out to d12+6, or 12.5 damage exactly.

I've worked out the math of Smite-Verses-Rage before. With a two-handed weapon, a first-level barbarian's rage adds +3 damage per attack, and lasts, at the very least, 5 rounds. That's a total of 15 bonus damage for one use of one ability at first level, not counting the other benefits (bonus to health and willpower), not using things like power attack (if we power attack for 2-- the same bonus we get to-hit from the Strength boost, the bonus damage goes to +6/attack, and +30 damage over the minimum 5 rounds).

Now, Smite does help in putting it all up front, but it's still not that great. Let's put it in more approachable terms: +1 damage/level is about equal to 1d6/3 class levels. Would you cast a spell that deals 1d6/3 caster levels of untyped damage to one foe? Letting you use it with a full attack helps, but you still have to hit with progressively weaker attacks, and let me tell you: even 1d6/level starts to fall behind at higher levels. Look at magic: polar ray is an 8th level spell that deals 1d6/level to a single target, and it's terrible. You could do twice that much with a single spell two levels ago (disintegrate), and harm deals 10 damage per caster level.

Meanwhile, a CR 7 Hill Giant has an average of 102 hit points. A CR 10 Bebillith has 150, and a CR 12 Purple Worm, 200. +7, +10, or +12 damage isn't a whole lot against hit point totals like that. Helpful? Yes. Worth a 2-3 times per day ability?...

If there are any other points you feel that we haven't elaborated on fully enough, please let me know, and I'll try to find some numbers for you.

The Templar Chooses an idea or a deity to Champion. Deity codes are defined (loosely) in their entries in the various sourcebooks, while Idea/Ideal codes are defined by what makes sense for the Idea/Ideal championed. If you are a Templar of Hope, you dont just walk into a town Square and behead the local mayor unless hes a PoS
I fully agree, and thus, there exists a penalty for breaking the code. However, why does this have to be instant obliteration? Losing all your useful abilities is a massive penalty already. Why do you feel that it should be made it worse?

Empedocles

2012-04-22, 11:11 PM

I'm just going to say that almost every DM, everywhere, will handwave the obliteration. It's just too much.

toapat

2012-04-22, 11:12 PM

Because I've thought about the subject before, my opinion is invalid?

no, your opinion is invalidated because you failed to show you are able to separate your opinion from preconcieved notions.

Half Orc barbarians upfront are good, but they are only good for a period of time. their damage doesnt scale as well because rage requires the barbarian to focus on leveling constitution instead of strength, which means they loose out damage from Power Attack, damage which, the paladin can easily add to, as their most important attribute is charisma in this rewrite.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-04-22, 11:46 PM

no, your opinion is invalidated because you failed to show you are able to separate your opinion from preconcieved notions.
I... don't even know where to begin talking about this.

I have an opinion, yes. It's shaped by my experiences and my beliefs, just like yours. But I try to approach everything with an open mind, and I swear to you that I did my best here. Divine Obliteration aside, I have nothing against you or this class. I mean, yeah, there are rough spots, but it's a pretty solid piece of work all around, and I would not turn it down if a player wanted to use it.

In any case, I've said what I had to say. If I haven't addressed a particular point to your satisfaction, let me know and I'll try to remedy that. Otherwise, if you don't want to hear from me anymore, I'll depart this thread.

Good luck with future 'brew, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

T.G. Oskar

2012-04-23, 01:36 AM

no, your opinion is invalidated because you failed to show you are able to separate your opinion from preconcieved notions.

Alright, I need to state this clearly, as when you addressed Grod, I found something a bit...disturbing to say the least. It's repeated in this answer, so I must insist.

Yes, there's a chance that Grod's opinion couldn't separate from preconceived notions. If I can associate correctly, that idea of preconceived notions means that you consider Grod's opinion to be subjective, right?

Because, if that is the answer, well...isn't opinion meant to be subjective anyways? It's an interpretation of facts but nonetheless a subjective belief (if going with Wikipedia), "a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter" (first definition if going with Merriam-Webster). Preconceived notions are expected of opinions, being subjective by nature. Grod states no fact, but his opinion on things, much like I did regarding the bad idea of the punishment. Perhaps what you were trying to mention was "it's wrong to attempt to appeal to authority to support your opinion, as neither you nor the other are authorities on the matter", referring to Grod and me as lacking the proper authority to speak regarding matters of homebrewing; that as much I concede, as I mentioned on my second post. In any case, being opinion, you're welcome to consider it or disregard it, but it's in the best intention that you consider it.

Second, championing an alignment doesn't necessarily mean you adhere to a code of conduct. A Lawful Good Fighter that follows the god of Justice (let's say Heironeous) and devotes to uphold justice is no less a champion of an alignment OR ideal than the Templar is; what makes it different is that while the Fighter gains no particular bonus, the Templar gains a lot of boons and powers. This then leads to the Cleric, or...heck, the Favored Soul! The first is not necessarily the champion, but his devotion to the cause isn't by any means less important; however, the Cleric is essentially the messenger, the teacher and the priest of the deity, and by all means higher in the hierarchy than the Templar. The Favored Soul? Think of a Prophet: someone who is so in contact with the deity that he can essentially speak to it freely. It's the person that the god said "I'll give him powers because I like the guy a lot, really" and just showers him with spells and wings. Both can be champions of the alignment or ideal as the Templar does (the Favored Soul bound to a deity, but the Cleric has no such excuse, as it can be the follower of an ideal). The punishment for a Cleric not following the deity's rules and concepts? Perhaps the loss of powers, but the deity does not take it to smite him for any perceived slight, much less the Powers that Be. The Favored Soul? The god does nothing, because once he gave the powers to the FS, he has no control over how the FS uses them. You champion an alignment not because of the powers, but because you believe in it, and you don't bind yourself to a code of conduct because you fear its repercussions, but because you believe in it. That's not being masochist at all: however, binding yourself to a code of conduct with a very harsh punishment IS.

Prospective Templars might find it in this way: they get in the interview, mention all the benefits of being a Templar ("the power to smite the enemies of Good, the ability to heal the wounds of others by touch, divine miracles that you can access by careful meditation, amongst others!"), but then they mention the Code ("you just can't lie, cheat, steal, be pals with my enemies, backstab, run like a coward, etc...") and the repercussions ("...or I'll use you like a bullseye for my smokin' bolts"). By that moment, the prospect laughs a bit and says "well, how about joining the clergy? Or maybe just fight in your name but in my own way!" Perhaps that may be a test of faith, but very few would consider that the reward overcomes the punishment, particularly when the best reward (follow the path of Good, you end up in my place at the Upper Planes, perfected, that kind of stuff) can be followed in a much easier way, and championing the deity or alignment can be done in an equally easier way. In fact, if you consider, being a Cleric definitely makes for the better choice: you lose some points of BAB, the smites, the lay on hands, divine grace and...maybe the aura of courage, but you get 9th level spells which are by FAR better than what you get, and you get ALL of that for less. It's not even a fair trade, and the Cleric is no less a champion of the faith as the Templar would.

Perhaps the idea, then, is that the Templar is someone who willingly undertakes adherence to a stringent Code in order to show its burning desire to prove the tenets of his or her faith in everyday life, vanquishing the enemies of the faith, and receives tools, not rewards, to follow that. That, good sir, lands more in the realm of fluff, not the realm of crunch.

Regarding the idea of championing an ideal: why can't a LG character honor Love? I mean, isn't that the whole point of the chansons de geste, or the third stem of the Code of Chivalry amongst the Medieval Age? You know, fidelity to the Dame and honorable service? Courtly love goes beyond alignments. Conquest just as well: a LG or CG Templar could provide the means for conquest, as it finds that by conquering other lands, they can aid these people by providing them the virtues of proper and just government or the virtues of free will for the improvement of others (LG would be...perhaps a democratic republic, NG would be pure democracy and CG would be an utopic anarchy). Tyranny, before being associated with oppression, was no more evil as Monarchy or Theocracy. It's in my opinion that, perhaps, you should divorce the concept of Alignment with the concept of "Championing an Ideal", then perhaps tying the Code to the Ideal rather than going through alignment. Even then, I would disagree with the idea of the punishment, particularly since Chaotic champions may not feel comfortable with the idea of following a Code or else risk oblivion. I mean, peoples of Chaotic alignment may follow their own code, but aren't bound to it rather than find it's a good way to live until the code becomes an impediment to their beliefs or actions, in the same way as a Chaotic individual may follow a law but really doesn't believe he or she should follow it because it's the law, but because he or she finds it's good or proper to follow it. At the moment the law becomes an impediment, a Lawful person will probably resign (as it finds that the law ensures that the rights of others are respected) while the Chaotic person won't mind bending or breaking it (as it finds that the law is no longer in accord with its intentions).

Now, considering there IS now a clarification on when the punishment applies (only when a gross violation of the Code, as defined by the DM and the player, if that's how I interpret it), I still consider it's a bad idea, but at least it's a bit more workable. Yet, the code could use a bit more elaboration: indicate what could be an intermediate punishment (if any), the grounds for minor, intermediate and "POOF!" punishments are, or at least how a DM and a player can define these, amongst others.

P.S.: I don't mind that you don't like my retool; I'm not the greatest 'brewer in the world, and much less a game designer. However, mind telling me (perhaps in the thread, if possible) what you found boring? I suspect it may be the lack of strong spellcasting (or the lack of draconian punishments ;D), but it piques my curiosity since I find it has quite a bit of options added in, which somewhat preclude the notion of boredom.

toapat

2012-04-23, 01:24 PM

Understand that when I said you invalidated the PEACH, it was because prior experience made the CH portion no longer a detatched and impersonal review.

I defend my stance that Love the blind driving emotion that drives one insane for another is a purely CG emotion. Courtly love on the otherhand is the noble championing of lady, granting her favor and respect. I feel it better represents a subdivision of Honor then of love. Conquest is definitely not a G-N-E concept, but one with a number of connotations depending on intentions

Asto the Cleric-FVS-Paladin-Templar roles, you get what they are supposed to be, but are a bit off:

Clerics are the people who interpret the teachings of a deity, while Favored Souls are prophets/jesus entities granted the power of their deity to teach their holy word, but paladins and templars are not pentinents of the religion unless they take it up after other classes and have changed alignment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). Typically a Paladin or templar is the one who channels the divine might and will of a Deity, with templar being a more offensive, while paladin is a more defensive interpretation of the will.

Asto the uses of <whatever smite you have>, a Per day value is alot better then a per encounter value, as it makes the ability more valuable, expecially considering the role of the Paladin is not mechanically to be a meatshield, but to be a nuker/blaster/spiker.

SinsI

2012-04-23, 03:13 PM

Are you sure you want to give Use Magic Device to a full BAB d10 hit die class that also casts spells based on charisma?
With full investment, at level 17 his bonus to that skill would be 20 + 4 (synergy) + ~5 (CHA modifier), allowing him to use any spell scroll.

T.G. Oskar

2012-04-23, 04:35 PM

Understand that when I said you invalidated the PEACH, it was because prior experience made the CH portion no longer a detatched and impersonal review.

Well, that's not exactly what you said. You mentioned that my opinion, by being subjective, was no longer a proper opinion.

This is entirely different. An honest critique does not necessarily has to be "detached and impersonal", a strong critique is, but a strong critique does not necessarily has to be honest. Case in point: if your opinion about a matter of study is of opposition, but you nonetheless give a positive critique about the matter because you detached yourself from opinion and went mostly with facts and cold, hard logic, it's a strong critique but not personally honest. The definition of "honest" can be pretty ambiguous if you don't define it.

Now: on the mechanical aspect, there is precedent for a few things I mentioned in my post. For starters, the dichotomy between full BAB and 6-level spellcasting. I can prove twice, through official means, that the intention for 6th level spellcasting is to have Medium BAB. I mentioned that, supported by the rules. 4-level spellcasting and full BAB is allowed, if only because there is precedent. If I were to tell you why that's a bad idea, then that's my opinion, and it will be as subjective as usual; however, if I were to make an objective point, I could say "there is precedence, specifically within the Player's Handbook, that 4-level spellcasting and full BAB, or 6-level spellcasting and Medium BAB, are the proper ways to handle a blend of spellcasting and martial talent". I could also say "based on the rules to create a new class on the DMG, Characters section, page 174, one of the recommendations to 'avoid the pitfalls' is to compare your new class with existing classes; furthermore, the DMG advises against making a character more powerful than what already exists." This is easily proven, with parts taken straight from the SRD and the DMG, which would make it an academically honest critique of why it is bad to have a 6-level spellcasting class possess full BAB. Now, you and I can mathematically prove that the existing Paladin cannot work effectively as other classes to deal with various common situations in combat (see: Solo Game Test), so the Paladin needs an improvement. However, this is a debate between something mathematically proven and the rules of the game; because there is the slim chance (as the game is based on random chance) that a Solo Game Test can result in the Paladin succeeding on it, and because the game is designed to be played in cooperation with others in a system of counterweights, the mathematical weakness of the Paladin is rendered null. Considering a 4-person party dealing with the same situations, there is the possibility that a party comprised of a Paladin, a full divine spellcaster, a skill monkey and a full arcane spellcaster can succeed in a day's quests. The examples of play often use four players and four characters, which you can extrapolate as the intention of the game (and a wider interpretation can lead to a multi-player game, which certainly fits).

However, when dealing with the problem of a fluff-related rulel, this is something that strong critique cannot handle. Essentially, you support your decision on the idea that you've lowered the strictness of the Code (a qualitative trait) but empowered the punishment (again, a qualitative trait, although one that results in a perfectly quantitative result: 1 Templar + 1 gross violation of the code = 0 Templar). In that case, I found that "honest" critique had to be subjective, and had to use examples that could not be throughly proven, as the matter of the Code is subjective at best: in fact, by the moment you define the Code as "whatever you want", it enters the realm of the subjective, and no critique regarding that can be purely objective. If I were to say "by lowering the strictness of the Code but empowering the punishment, you have retained the same balance as the original Paladin, hence the exchange is appropriate", I wouldn't have been personally honest.

However...going through that, does the punishment fit the looseness of the Code? Going by the basic Paladin code, your punishment is temporary (or permanent, but I go with temporary because of the existence of the Atonement spell), but the Code is strict. By deference, if you are to loosen the tenets of the Code, the punishment should be strict, but within the same lines: thus, the correct answer would be "if I loosen the code, then the best way to handle it is to make the punishment permanent". Death is...certainly permanent, but the permanent loss of power not only fits the original punishment, it also reaches a logical result. Qualitatively speaking, the punishment you give for a gross violation of the Code is far too strict, compared to an equivalent yet perfectly reasonable substitute (the permanent loss of ALL powers, yet not the physical training). In fact, there is a precedent for this: 1st Edition and 2nd Edition had this, and the Code was no less stricter than now (in fact, it was more strict). Now, whether this can be considered a more academically honest critique than the one I delivered, I cannot vouch for that, but I must mention that, in terms of fluff, I went for subjective opinion. As far as I can recall, what you wanted is "commentary", while assuming that everyone understood what was to request for PEACH in exactly the same way. I delivered a commentary, and went with my perception of honest critique, which essentially means personally honest. But, it can also mean "Please Examine and Comment Honestly", which would certainly fit what I seek.

Now, my question to you would be the following: if you were to ignore the part about fluff, is the rest of the post critically honest, or is it plagued by the same mistakes, and thus it is invalid for your needs? Are the posts of others, with the exception of Grod, honest critiques of your work?

I defend my stance that Love the blind driving emotion that drives one insane for another is a purely CG emotion. Courtly love on the otherhand is the noble championing of lady, granting her favor and respect. I feel it better represents a subdivision of Honor then of love. Conquest is definitely not a G-N-E concept, but one with a number of connotations depending on intentions

This is a subjective opinion. That perception of Love is certainly a bit...narrow, considering that love goes above and beyond a "blind, driving emotion". Selflessness is Love. Think about it. Is selflessness, assuming it is real and not a delusion to justify a secretly selfish act, a blind driving emotion? If so, does Selflessness is anathema to Lawful Good people?

Asto the Cleric-FVS-Paladin-Templar roles, you get what they are supposed to be, but are a bit off:

Clerics are the people who interpret the teachings of a deity, while Favored Souls are prophets/jesus entities granted the power of their deity to teach their holy word, but paladins and templars are not pentinents of the religion unless they take it up after other classes and have changed alignment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). Typically a Paladin or templar is the one who channels the divine might and will of a Deity, with templar being a more offensive, while paladin is a more defensive interpretation of the will.

This is a difference between perceptions. Based on the original conception of a Cleric, the Cleric was supposed to be the armed voice of the deity, whereas the Paladin was meant to be the noble knight in service to a feudal lord. If curious, go and check the 1st Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. Go ahead, I'll be waiting.

While I cannot speak with you, you may have noticed that the perceptions of the Cleric and the Paladin have changed a lot from their original incarnations. That "bit off" you mention means you and I have a somewhat similar line of thought on what a Cleric and a Paladin should be, and I can't really vouch for that, as your perception on how I perceive a Paladin to be is much different from what I perceive a Paladin to be. Since, in this case, you equate the Paladin with the Templar, the distinction stands.

Asto the uses of <whatever smite you have>, a Per day value is alot better then a per encounter value, as it makes the ability more valuable, expecially considering the role of the Paladin is not mechanically to be a meatshield, but to be a nuker/blaster/spiker.

Lemme stretch my hands for this.

Note what the Paladin (and by extension, the Templar) has. Aside from the Smites, it has the following:
A d10 Hit Dice, which is similar to what a Fighter gets
Proficiency in all kinds of armor (except the exotic ones in Races of Stone and perhaps a few others), and proficiency in all kinds of shields except Tower Shields and exotic shields (again, from Races of Stone)
A good Fortitude save, which is mechanically consistent with the Fighter and other front-line classes.
Divine Grace, which allows the Paladin to have an even HIGHER Fortitude save, alongside good Reflex and Will saves
A modicum of divine spellcasting, of which the first few levels consist of pretty much various healing spells, protection spells, buffs and debuffs. The first proper attack spell a Templar (note I said Templar) is the 2nd level spell Searing Light, unless the Templar's domain grants it a blasting spell earlier on.
The auras grant them a modicum of protection and invulnerabilities, not to mention the Templar added a few buffs to attack and damage rolls.
Lay on Hands, which acts mostly as an emergency form of healing. With the Pathfinder version of LoH applying, you can have this healing more times per day, and with added healing to boot!

Now, explain to me in clear terms how this equates to "blaster/nuker". Perhaps you follow the definition provided by Complete Mage, page 13, where it describes the Blaster as "the anchor of an adventuring party" and also that it "softens up the enemy so that companions can swoop in and defeat them that much easier". It then speaks of what an arcane blaster does: calculates spell angles, diameters, radii; make terrific battlefield leaders, works excellently against an advancing army of soldiers, and so on. In no moment it defines the blaster (and its counterpart the nuker) as a character that "want to be in the front line and have the fighters back them up", which is the core element of the warrior (CM 28). However, if you ask what is the term "nuker" in comparison to the term "tank", you might realize that the "nuker" usually deals a lot of damage against a large amount of enemies, something that Divine Blow can't currently do, particularly over a large area. You need spells to do that, but your actual "blasting" spells don't emerge up until 4th level spells or so, when you get Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light/Moderate Wounds, and to an extent Blade Barrier. At least, the wide-area spells. If you choose an alignment domain, you may get Holy Smite and their equivalents, which also do blasting. For single-target blasting, you get Searing Light at 2nd and then nothing else.

A "tank", on the other hand, usually works by doing three things: surviving all kinds of damage, luring all opposition to itself, and do enough damage so that said opposition cannot escape. This fits with the definition of an actual tank, which has long-range and close range combat capabilities, the best armor around for a vehicle, and generally draws enemies from their hiding spots so that infantry and light vehicles can mow them in. The Paladin fits at least one of these things, and the Templar fits two; luring enemies is something that doesn't exist in D&D proper, as it usually works within the "hate" mechanic. In this case, the huge benefits to AC and saves and the high HP from the Paladin (and in this case, the Templar) make them better tanks than blasters, as typical blasters are not heavily armored (see artillery, mortars, ICBMs, etc.)

If what you refer is that Divine Blow is a [I]burst damage ability, I perfectly agree with that. However, at 1st level, it delivers almost NO burst damage whatsoever: it makes your attack a bit more accurate, however. By 20th level, it deals a reasonable amount of damage, but you'll never do the amount of damage a real spiker (read: Rogue) can do almost every time, because of the big differences of 20 points of damage vs. an average of 35 points per hit, with a potential for more.

If you ask for more valuable resources, think of spells. If you think about excellent per-day resources, think of Rage (lasts for a good while, provides constant boosts to damage, generally allows for a build that deals good, consistent damage every level instead of a single boost to damage). Divine Blow stops being a lousy per-day ability at 7th level, coincidentally when you have the chance to deal more than one attack per round; however, and this is important to consider, that alone doesn't make you a spiker, and much less a blaster.

IMO (note the "O", which stands for opinion of course), Divine Blow is a lousy per-day, non-valuable ability until 7th level, and requires a sizable boost to damage in order for it to work (such as dealing 1d6 points of damage at 1st level, or just go plain 5+level, which at level 1 means an excellent 6 points of extra damage). Make it per encounter, as you won't get to abuse it up until 5th level when you can do it twice per encounter. Once you reach 7th level, make it so that you can enable that ability on a full attack, but by sacrificing one of your encounter uses for the whole day; that way, you make it far more valuable as you must consider whether it's more important to get a minor boost for one attack, or a major boost for all attacks but at the cost of having less of your "spiking" resources during the day. While you do that, consider that a Warblade can do Sapphire Nightmare Blade once per encounter, and with a swift action, actually recover it, then later on get better abilities (Insightful Strike, Mountain Hammer, etc.) Once you make THAT comparison, tell me if the Templar is a proper spiker or not.

toapat

2012-04-23, 10:21 PM

The disqualification from rating is for non-abstract class features. i still payed attention to your commentary on the penalty, which is why i edited the main post with that.

Understand that not responding to the commentary on the punishment was based off of the fact that said punishment was built to disable the abuse of the Blackguard oversight in UA. There is no Errata that says the paladins of tyranny/slaughter cant get all those benefits of Blackguard other then a rule clearly written only concerning the LG Paladin of Honor which happened to be the only other paladin at the time. And because you have Levels of Paladin, bam, you are now a lvl 10 CE pally/1 blackguard who is effectively a few levels higher then they should be.

I think the comparison of Paladin then and Paladin now is not as accurate, because the paladin Now is a Divine fist sort of character, if severely bogged down. The Knight was split off to continue the knight in shining armor concept, and if you gestalt a paladin and Knight together, you get flavorwise the previous <howevermany came before 3rd ed> (seriously, i cant seem to get a clean how many the TSR versions count as, i get answers between 2-4) paladins.

When i said Love, i meant only the Physical attraction for another person. as to the selflessness is Love: i know ive seen (and read) convincing arguments that Selflessness is selfish. i forget where though.

I think we need better definitions of Nuker, Spiker, and Blaster: (Note, was saying that of the abilities defined within the PHB1, paladin does not get significant resources and i was just firing off the typical names for the glass cannon type role)

Nuker: Rogue is the closest to this terminology, as nuker typically means one who is both fragil, and consistently powerful for damage. a Rogue gets alot of sneak attack dice, while having low health and armor for being melee characters. the PF versions of the T1 classes fit this well also
Spiker: A term from Guildwars, this is a "heavily armored" character who can deal out alot of damage really, really quick, in terms of core classes, paladin fills this role because they get alot of damage because they rely almost entirely on a hail mary critical hit, and can still take a good ammount of damage. This Templar rewrite veres away from this a bit because the other aspect of Spiker is that a Spiker anihilates their limited resources, while this templar is certainly not going to be running low on juice for a good while in combat.
Blaster: a balance between Spiker and Nuker, these guys get alot of damage, rely on chance a bit, and get a balance between the Nuker's glass cannonhood and the Spiker's M-1 Abrams Manifest. basically every T1 class is one of these guys.

In terms of Tank roles, there are 2 kinds:

Stonewall/Mighty Glacier: You can take whatever people throw at you, nuclear warheads bounce harmlessly off your shield, nothing short of divine intervention can move you: Knight+Dwarven Defender have this pretty well covered.
Aggro Tanking: You talk such smack, that your opponents feel the overwhelming need to destroy you. Knight covers this.
Smite Evil in PnP is a relative nuking ability, which is what i was saying.

I had actually considered adding in Defensive stance to move them into Mighty Glacier category, but it felt like that would be a bit too much, i will edit exaulted blow to have +2d6 per purchase instead of 1d6, as It is merely Exaulted Smite rebuilt to work for this rewrite