Creating a Shadowdancer [pathfinder]

[13ones]

Ever since I began to look into the pathfinder books I've been trying to create a shadowdancer. The prestige class has always captured my attention and I've always wanted to build one. I've been stuck taking other roles (mostly spell casters) but I think I can finally use one in the up coming game I'll be playing. I turn now to people who are far more experienced with the class and concepts than I to help me.

The game will be a 25 point buy game that will actually see me progress from level 4 all the way to level 20. I have access to all of the current path finder books, but not to certain things such as Hero points or Leadership. I don't know what my team will look like, nor do I know what I will be facing. All I know is that the shadowdancer is something I so, so want to use.

I know the basic stat distribution to use for a character like this, as I've looked it up. What I'm really looking for is advice for feats, abilities, how to play it, etc. I'm torn between taking the rogue and going into shadow dancer at level 10 or the ninja and doing the same thing. I'm not sure what kind of weapons to use, fighting styles, feats, armor or when to attack (as this would be my first martial class).

I turn to you. I beseech you, please help me figure out how to pull off the class I've always wanted to play and make it be effective.

[Tokuhara]

This Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/s/Shadow-Assassin) with this Race (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/races-of-the-dragon-empires/tengu) and a spiked chain with trip = stealthy trip master

[13ones]

Not allowed to use any third party material. Forgot to mention that. Tengu may be allowed if they aren't broken in the advance race guide.

[Tokuhara]

Not allowed to use any third party material. Forgot to mention that. Tengu may be allowed if they aren't broken in the advance race guide.

They're in a Paizo book similar to 3.5's Oriental Adventures. And bummer about the "No 3rd Party" stuff. Ninja then is your best bet.

[13ones]

Anyone else wish to throw their opinion into the ring?

[Stormageddon]

If you're going to wait until level 10 to take shadow dancer go rogue 10 / SD 10. Otherwise you will not get advance rogue talents, or you could talk to your DM see if SD can advance Ninja talents.

[grarrrg]

I'm going to be "that guy" and advise you DON'T use Rogue/Ninja for entry.

Part of the reason is the redundancies.
Rogue gets Evasion, so does Shadowdancer (does not "stack" in any way)
Rogue/Ninja get Uncanny Dodge and, eventually, Imp. Uncanny. Shadowdancer also gets Uncanny Dodge and Imp. Uncanny (granted if you have Uncanny Dodge already, a 2nd instance will upgrade to Imp. Uncanny automatically, but then you still have a redundant Imp. Uncanny).

Another reason is the Summon Shadow feature, you get a Companion that has the same Bab as you, and half your HP, so taking levels in a Full Bab/d10 class would improve your Shadow.

You can get a variety of bonuses for fighting in "dim light", ESPECIALLY the capstone ability of DR 10/- and +2 all Saves.
But you have no/little ability to control WHEN you are fighting in 'dim light'.

My suggestion(s) is to take some combination of:
Inquisitor: 6 Skills/level, ability to cast Darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/darkness), and Deeper Darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deeper-darkness). The Judgement ability can be used to boost your Damage, and Bane at level 5 is a very nice boost in damage (although limited duration).
OR
Bard: Similar to Inquisitor, Cha based casting (instead of Wis), less combat focused though (can be managed with Archetypes), Bard can also pick up Trapfinding through various archetypes if desired.

Note: Most caster classes can cast Darkness by level 3-or-4, but Bard/Inquisitor are the only ones with more than 4 Skill points (and have 3/4 Bab).

If you went Inquisitor, then Trapfinding can be had with 1 level of Trapper Ranger (d10HD/Full Bab/6 Skills).

Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter can help with Feats and Bab, 4 Skills/level, d10HD, Full bab, first 2 levels grants 2 'Combat' Feats and Combat Expertise, 3rd level grants +2 on ALL CMB/CMD checks.



If you still insist on Rogue/Ninja, I'd go with Ninja because it does NOT have Evasion, and it has CHA-synergy with some of the Shadowdancer abilities.

[deuxhero]

1: Take Skill Focus: Stealth (Half elfs get it for free FYI)
2: Take Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
3: Take improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
4: Don't take Shadow Dancer
5:???
6: Profit!


Seriously that trio of feats gets you everything a Shadowdancer has going for it over Rogue/Ninja in PF (3.5 has options to abuse the shadow pet, but nothing exists in PF) for 15 charisma (A pitance in 25 PF pointbuy) and 3 feats (the same you need just to qualify for SD).

If the DM allows you to take Umbral bloodline with EH, that's an improvement.

[ericgrau]

I'd go bard to haste your shadow and because he casts darkness. It's a shame his HD (and thus feats) don't advance any more but the extra BAB attack later on will be nice. If you can get more strength reduction to stack on top of the shadow's str damage that'd be nice, but PF nerfed ray of enfeeblement so I dunno what would be worth it. Another good spell with bard is gallant inspiration to change misses into hits as an immediate action. It's ridiculous. The shadow makes a great I-walk-through-walls scout too.

You might cast the level 1-3 bard spells that are still worth it at high levels and UMD wands of other spells. Maybe empowered ray of enfeeblement but with half the str penalty most of the time it's kinda meh and I dunno how to salvage the PF shadowdancer. I mean the spell like abilities they added are 2 spell levels behind, they nerfed the one way to stack a str penalty on top of your shadow's ability and your shadow can't get feats any more for dirty tricks like spring attacking str damage from a wall while the rest of the party hangs back for 3 rounds until the enemy figures out what to do. Hmm, you could try rogue 10 for crippling strike str damage and then shadowdancer starting at 11.

I mean 3+ strength damage attacks is pretty sweet but what are YOU supposed to do when all your other class features are so far behind. Hmm, I know, get ghost touch equipment and put ALL your gear on your shadow. Hang back to haste it and then hide in plain sight to stay safe. Since even foes that can hit it miss 50% of the time having half HP isn't bad either. UMD a wand of inflict light wounds for between battle healing. Make sure your nigh-untouchable shadow goes ahead of the party in all fights until foes finally manage to hurt it a little, then the party comes in. There your shadow is now your character and your original character is merely a tagalong. Problem solved.

[grarrrg]

After digging through the archetypes, Bard is looking better and better.

I found 3 decent options, links will be provided, as I will only list the important bits.
Archaeologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist) gives Trapfinding, self-boosting Performance (loses 'normal' perform abilities) which provides Accuracy, Damage, Save, and Skill bonuses (at the same time!), and Rogue Talents at levels 4 & 8.

Arcane Duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/arcane-duelist) gets an Arcane Bond weapon at level 5, and gives out lots of bonus feats.
1: Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat)
2: Combat Casting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/combat-casting---final)
6: Disruptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disruptive-combat---final)
10: Spellbreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spellbreaker-combat---final)

Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) is mainly for getting Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) as a bonus feat, it gives Dex to Accuracy AND Damage with Scimitars. The rest is mostly minor, with the exception that certain Performances only affect yourself (but at DOUBLE the bonus).


And of course, all of them can cast Darkness when they get 2nd level spells.

[13ones]

Hmm, the inquisitor shadow dancer does sound interesting. Would you do a melee or ranged variant of that?

[grarrrg]

I just realized that Paladin may not be that bad an option if you wanted a more Martial/Less Skill Monkey option.

The Paladin of Darkness
Use the Feat Unsanctioned Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/unsanctioned-knowledge) to add Darkness/Deeper Darkness, and your choice of 1st level spell (don't worry about 4th level, you'll never be able to cast it anyway).
You'll need at least 16 CHA to be able to cast Deeper Darkness at Paladin 10 (Pearls of Power can help with your limited Spell Slots and low caster level).

High CHA also synergizes nicely with some Shadowdancer abilities.

You also have d10HD and Full Bab, which helps your Shadow.

You also get a Divine Bond, either granting your Weapon bonuses, or a Mount, if you pick Mount I recommend the Boon Companion feat to get its effective level up to 14 (10 Paladin + 4 feat).

I haven't dug around enough to know which Archetypes would be a good fit yet.
This can also be done with an Anitpaladin while saving you a feat. You don't need Unsanctioned Knowledge, as Antipaladins already have Darkness on their list.



Hmm, the inquisitor shadow dancer does sound interesting. Would you do a melee or ranged variant of that?

Short answer: Melee, using Weapon Finesse with Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Agile) Weapons (Two-weapon Fighting optional).

Long answer: Shadow Dancer requires Combat Reflexes, which to make good use of requires high-ish Dex.
You also must be wearing Light (or no) Armor to benefit from Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, so the sky is the limit on your Dex score.

High Dex is good for either Melee or Ranged, but Combat Reflexes doesn't play nice with Ranged (I am aware of the Snap Shot feat(s), but that requires MORE feat investment, which we can't really afford at this point).

So Dex-based Melee it is.
Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) gets you Dex to-hit, and Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Agile) Enchantment gets you Dex to Damage.
At this point, you may as well grab Two-Weapon Fighting as well.

[Slacker]

I'm considering going the Shadow Dancer route with a Tiefling, in the new Slayer class.