Kilkil: Replacement Kobold

[Finagle]

So, now that the Linear Guild has disposed of its #3 kobold, they're down to #4, Kilkil. So far, he has shown no skills other than administrative skills. What class could he be and what possible benefit can he bring to the LG? He's not carrying a weapon, otherwise it would be on his back like all other OOTS characters. Concealed daggers?

In the LG, we've got cleric, fighter, bard, wizard, and outsider. My guess is...thief? Or he's some obscure prestige class? Magic device-user? I suppose it'll be a big reveal after being cornered by Belkar, Kilkil suddenly displays awesome powers. Maybe he's there to count the spears and arrows used, to better update the accounting books of the Empire.

[Marlowe]

Well, his job in the EoB is to be Tarquin's Factotum, and he seems to have a high intelligence, which doesn't suggest absolutely anything at all to me whatsoever. I'm completely stumped.

[Emperor Flumph]

I'm sure there's some way he'll use his actuarial skills to great effect in battle, but I don't know what it is.
I suppose in a world that functons according to DnD rules, where everything comes down to numbers, a solid grounding in mathematics would allow you to assess your opponent very well and pinpoint his weaknesses, but I can't imagine how that mighty play out in the comic.

[Chess Tyrant]

Another possibility is that his behavior is a reflection of having tons of Expert class levels, resulting in an actually-decent fighting capability.

[Bastian Weaver]

Wait. There's no bard in Nale's gang. Never was, actually...

[Blisstake]

Wait. There's no bard in Nale's gang. Never was, actually...

Nale says bards are a weak class. Who told him that? Tarquin.

Anyway, he's probably an expert.

[Johel]

Wait. There's no bard in Nale's gang. Never was, actually...

Never will : Nale cover the jack-of-all-trade part.

As for Kilkil, yeah, he is just a lackey.
But a nice opposite to Belkar.

[Emperor Flumph]

Wait. There's no bard in Nale's gang. Never was, actually...
Saying 'Bard' was easier than 'Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer'. He's the rough equivalent of a Bard anyway.

[Onyavar]

Hm, what Skills and Stats might Kilkil have?

I estimate he has high INT and a decent WIS.
Regarding the skills, he might have the following in a higher amount:
Appraise, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Profession: Bureaucrat, Gather Information, maybe Forgery and Bluff...

What do you think?

[Kish]

There hasn't been a "thief" class since 2ed. Sabine is a rogue.

Kilkil thus far appears to be an Expert. I hope it stays that way rather that having a Big Reveal of what a badass the secretary actually is; I also hope he kills Belkar.

[hamishspence]

4E Essentials finally brought the "thief" back.

But this is 3.5- so no "thief".

[Morquard]

Well he's a Kobold with wings.
So maybe he is a badass race with lots of racial hitdice and inate sorcerer abilities or something. Either dragon or fiend-related maybe?

[Bastian Weaver]

Maybe he's a mutant! Blessed and cursed with amazing powers! Striving to protect the world that fears and hates him!..
Well, more like "the world that doesn't care much for him".

[Yuki Akuma]

Or he just took the "Draconic Wings" feat.

[D&D5eplayer]

the dragonwrought feat from 3.5 let your kobold be a dragon. As a dragon if you are X number of years old you can take epic feats.

there is a power play where a 3rd level kobold could have epic toughness.

edit: Specifically, they take advantage of an obscure rule in Draconomicon that states any True Dragon of at least Old age category can take Epic feats without being Epic. Kobolds use age categories like True Dragons, though much shorter. With Dragonwrought, the character's type changes to Dragon and counts as a True Dragon, as well as not suffering physical penalties for age. This lets a Dragonwrought Kobold start play as Old or older and legally take Epic feats.

Dragonwrought
( Races of the Dragon, p. 100)

[General]

You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race's innate connection to dragons.

Prerequisite: 1st level only, Kobold,

Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.

Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. Having this feat allows you to take the Dragon Wings feat at 3rd level.



so if kilkil is around the right level for the oots to fight he is atleast 12th... so 1st and 3rd feats are taken, and 3 extra feats, and that is amazing power he could have not withstanding what class he is.

[Acanous]

Factotum or Archivist seem likely. He's certainly not a sorceror, bard, barbarian, fighter, druid, paladin, wizard or ranger. It is concievable he could be a Rogue.

[D&D5eplayer]

Factotum or Archivist seem likely. He's certainly not a sorceror, bard, barbarian, fighter, druid, paladin, wizard or ranger. It is concievable he could be a Rogue.

Archivist would be great, divine caster, and those built in buffs of knowing your enemies, but none of the order would be the type for the dark secerets to come in... if on the other hand the IFF or Team evil show up...

[Smolder]

As for what strategy KilKil will employ against Belkar, an obvious one suggests itself.

KilKil can stay out of Belkar's range by hovering high over the battle. He just needs a ranged attack, like a tiny crossbow or dragon breath.

[thepsyker]

Well, his job in the EoB is to be Tarquin's Factotum, and he seems to have a high intelligence, which doesn't suggest absolutely anything at all to me whatsoever. I'm completely stumped.

Maybe he's a Factotum, Rich did write the book on them.:smallwink:

[Aasimar]

I really don't see why anyone would assume he's anything other than a (relatively low level) expert.

[androkguz]

I really don't see why anyone would assume he's anything other than a (relatively low level) expert.

Well, mostly because he got recruited in a high level team of adventurers to fight against another high level team of adventurers, by a guy that is smart enough not to waste precious minions.

However, it does seem like he is just an expert. Tarquin could have brought him to deal with finding the gate, not to fight. Keep in mind that, with Yukyuk dead and with him being an expert, the fight becomes a 5 vs 5, with the Oots very low on spellcasters.

[thepsyker]

I really don't see why anyone would assume he's anything other than a (relatively low level) expert.
Because the fact that he has wings and can fly with them seems to imply he is either a dragonwrought kobold or a regular kobold with enough levels to take the Improved Dragon wings feat*, which requires at least 6hd and a prerequisite feat. Further in order to fly for longer then a few minutes with Improved Dragon Wings he would have to have 12hd. Thus, he has a minimum level of 12 in something. So he is at least mid level, the question is in what. This is of course assuming that Rich isn't fudging the rules. Still I think for a lot of people it is a more meta case of them viewing his having such unique characteristics as wings as hinting that there is something special about him.


*It would have to be Improved Dragon wings because Dragon wing which is available at first level only allows one to glide while he is clearly capable of flying. He also can't be a half-dragon as only half-dragons of large size or greater get wings.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

He's probably an expert with the Epic level feats people were talking about.

But there is a more important link here we gotta think about. His name is KILL KILL. No matter what he was brought there for I bet he's going to be the one to finally end Belkar.

Not to mention I would relish in the irony of such an event. Belkar, super tough and thinks he can kill anyone, is taken out by a Kobold with no grudge against him and with NPC levels. It would be a fitting end.

[Kish]

I really don't see why anyone would assume he's anything other than a (relatively low level) expert.
Between strips #629 and #630, hundreds of theories were posted on this board about how Vaarsuvius' mate was going to kick the dragon's ass.

[Murray]

Maybe he's a mutant! Blessed and cursed with amazing powers! Striving to protect the world that fears and hates him!..
Well, more like "the world that doesn't care much for him".
...maybe he has nunchucks?

I really am expecting Kil-Kil to be more than what he appears to be. But he could just end up being a bloody reminder that Belkar still has that ring of jumping.

[ti'esar]

There hasn't been a "thief" class since 2ed. Sabine is a rogue.

Kilkil thus far appears to be an Expert. I hope it stays that way rather that having a Big Reveal of what a badass the secretary actually is; I also hope he kills Belkar.

I kind of agree with this, honestly.

[KillianHawkeye]

He's probably an expert with the Epic level feats people were talking about.

I think you mean "probably NOT."

Just explaining how it works would take long enough to make it not worth it, and that's not even getting into how it's a dubious reading of the rules to even allow those sorts of shenanigans.

Rich doesn't care about the rules beyond the basics. If he wants to give a kobold wings, he doesn't need to make sure he has Feat A so he can get Feat B, he just gives him wings.

[Fenice]

I really don't see why anyone would assume he's anything other than a (relatively low level) expert.
Same here.

The fact that Kilkil is not really good at fighting is perfect. The Order of the Stick misses a member right now (Vaarsuvius). And one of the most important one (a spellcaster).
Kilkil not being very useful in combats sort of balances the match: 5 vs 5.

Moreover, Tarquin didn't initially think about recruiting him in the Linear Guild. Once he and Malack joined the team he asked his son what he thought about the new party. Kilkil got recruited only because Nale felt that "something was missing".
If Tarquin had such a powerful minion, why didn't he recruited him from the very beginning?

Least but not last, Kilkil never cast a spell nor desplayed any magical aura so far. And no one ever mentioned that he can cast spells. That would be very strange for a OotS spellcaster. We have usually been informed if a character could cast spells from their first appearances.

[urkthegurk]

Maybe Rich isn't into a metagaming reading of the rules, but I bet the kobold has. If not the specific 'epic feats at 3rd level' hack detailed above, I bet Kilkil is capable of bending the rules in all sorts of other ways. Diplomacy alone, if used literally, and applied correctly, can be paralyzing to an adventuring party. Having someone who can theorize about DPS or optimized attack formations is very valuable on any team. What if he's a combination of Ender and Lord Hamster?

Or he could just get murdered really easily. Which would be boring, not funny.

Although there is another reason Tarquin might have invited him along: he, like Elan, values narrative symmetry. MAybe he knows that the Linear Guild CAN'T defeat the Order without a Kobold... so he brought his useless accountant along.

[Haldir]

I think it would be interesting if he were some sort of spellcaster.

[thepsyker]

Rich doesn't care about the rules beyond the basics. If he wants to give a kobold wings, he doesn't need to make sure he has Feat A so he can get Feat B, he just gives him wings.Of course Rich can do whatever he wants, but people are asking why anyone would think that Kilkil is anything other than a low level expert and the rules surrounding the wings are a reason one might expect that Kilkil is not a "low level" expert, although he might still just be an expert.

[KillianHawkeye]

Of course Rich can do whatever he wants, but people are asking why anyone would think that Kilkil is anything other than a low level expert and the rules surrounding the wings are a reason one might expect that Kilkil is not a "low level" expert, although he might still just be an expert.

And I'm saying that the fact the kobold has wings is not necessarily indicative of being a certain level in Rich's world.

[thepsyker]

And I'm saying that the fact the kobold has wings is not necessarily indicative of being a certain level in Rich's world.
If Rich decides to ignore the rules, so far we have nothing to indicate that he is doing so in this case. Thus it is a perfectly fair argument to point to the rules as a reason why Kilkil might be more than just a low level expert. Heck maybe Rich will decide to ignore the rules and Kilkil will intact be a low level expert that can cast finger of death as an epic level caster at will because all winged kobold's in Rich's world can do that, but we have no indication that Rich is going to ignore the rules in that fashion. By the rules for Kilkil to fly the way he has been shown to he has to be around 12th level, maybe Rich will ignore those rules, but I have yet to see any reason why we should think he is doing so. Either way it is a reason why people might think Kilkil is not just a low level expert.

[Fenice]

If Rich decides to ignore the rules,
Why should he be ignoring the rules, if the kobold turns out to be a low level expert?

He could be a 1st level expert kobold with the winged template. Which is perfectly fine by the rules. Races of the Dragon does in fact mention the existance of a subrace of winged kobolds, known as irsvern.

[The_Weirdo]

Archivist would be great, divine caster, and those built in buffs of knowing your enemies, but none of the order would be the type for the dark secerets to come in... if on the other hand the IFF or Team evil show up...

Yeah, it's not like Haley has a secret "not even V knows" or V leased his soul to fiends and accidentally killed the Draketooth family.

[thepsyker]

Why should he be ignoring the rules, if the kobold turns out to be a low level expert?

He could be a 1st level expert kobold with the winged template. Which is perfectly fine by the rules. Races of the Dragon does in fact mention the existance of a subrace of winged kobolds, known as irsvern.

What book is that template in? I'll admit I'm not an expert on 3.5 and could easily have missed that, but when i tried googling that template all I found was this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Winged_%283.5e_Template%29), which seems to be a homebrewed rule. Obviously though if that isn't the case then I was saying that because i was unaware of the existence of that template and am in fact simply wrong.

As for the irstvern if memory serves aren't they setting specific to Eberon and even than isn't their existence described as as something to the effect of being rumored or theoretical?

[Blisstake]

If Rich decides to ignore the rules, so far we have nothing to indicate that he is doing so in this case.

Beside, perhaps, the fact that he's explicitly stated he doesn't care about making sure everything in the comic is 3.5 accurate. I'd be willing to wager that Kilkil is simply a kobold with wings, without feat choice or templates even being an issue.

Also, I doubt Kilkil would end up being some obscure class like Archivist or Factotum. That would require unnecesary explaination for readers unfamiliar with them.

[thepsyker]

Beside, perhaps, the fact that he's explicitly stated he doesn't care about making sure everything in the comic is 3.5 accurate. I'd be willing to wager that Kilkil is simply a kobold with wings, without feat choice or templates even being an issue.

Also, I doubt Kilkil would end up being some obscure class like Archivist or Factotum. That would require unnecesary explaination for readers unfamiliar with them.The fact that Rich says he doesn't care about making everything 3.5 accurate isn't evidence in itself that something isn't 3.5 accurate. Rich could have just given Kilkil wings for the heck of it or he could have given Kilkil wings as a way of indicating he is more than just your run of the mill kobold, which would happily enough fit with the 3.5 rules that would require Kilkil to be of roughly the same level as the order whatever his actual class.

None the less that is rather beside my point. I was responding to the claim that we have no reason to think that Kilkil was anything other than a low level expert, by pointing out that following the rules he would need to be mid-level meaning there is a reason to think he might be something other than a low level expert. I even recognized that the Giant might ignore that reason in my post, but none the less the reason exists.

I would raise the question though as to what reason we have to think that Kilkil is just a low level expert? It seems to be based entirely on the fact that we haven't seen him do anything that indicates he isn't a low level expert, however the absence of evidence that he is not a low level expert is not in and of itself evidence that he is a low level expert.

[Fenice]

but when i tried googling that template all I found was this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Winged_%283.5e_Template%29), which seems to be a homebrewed rule.
No, it's an official template. You can find it in Savage Species.


As for the irstvern if memory serves aren't they setting specific to Eberon and even than isn't their existence described as as something to the effect of being rumored or theoretical?
Yes. This doesn't mean the setting of OotS can't have its own subrace, does it? :smallwink: Probably with another name. Afterall, if I'm not mistaken, the Giant contributed to write one of the Eberron setting handbooks.
:redcloak: And the deathless Ghost-Martyrs were already "homebrewed" from another setting.

[hamishspence]

:redcloak: And the deathless Ghost-Martyrs were already "homebrewed" from another setting.

Or possibly BoED, given BoVD has already made an appearance.

[mrmcfatty]

It might be possible that Kilkil is a monk, hence the reason there is no apparent weapon (although if i remember correctly rich said somewhere,i want to say SSaDT, he either didnt like them or they were overrated so this most likely isnt the case)

Someone mentioned earlier about him being a mathematician so he can pinpoint weaknesses possibly, i was thinking that there was a class that did something similar to this. The only thing that i seem to be able to find is the assassins death attack which can be used to paralyze an opponent if you wish it to, which would be one way to pinpoint a weakness.

I just thought there was one that focused more on things like submission-like moves, disarms, hitting vital areas to lower damage or speed. if not then that would be something i would be interested in creating :)

[Marlowe]

Why are people treating "no visible weapons" as a significant datum? The same applies to Tarquin, Durkon, Elan and Belkar.

Most one-handed weapons in OOTS are not visible until they are drawn. So..not drawn until they are. It's a little unusual that Nale's longsword can be seen in 847.

[Finagle]

Durkon only has his shield showing because that's the stick figure style, too much trouble to draw the hammer in there. Tarquin doesn't carry a weapon. He keeps his axe in storage and only has a dagger for personal protection. He's a general, not a frontline soldier. Elan is special because he's the protagonist. Belkar keeps his daggers in the same place as Tarquin, concealed because they're small enough. I don't want to turn this discussion around because characters can whip out weapons for reasons of plot, but otherwise the comic is remarkably consistent in drawing the characters with their appropriate weapons.

Kilkil's class seems to be Factotum. This would make sense as the author invented the class, and seems keen to show off what one would do in "real life". How would a high-level Factotum apply his skills in a fight such as the one the LG just started? He already advised Tarquin on an important matter of damage probability.

[hamishspence]

Kilkil's class seems to be Factotum. This would make sense as the author invented the class, and seems keen to show off what one would do in "real life".

Afraid not:

The factotum was all Jason (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10722208&postcount=21)

[Gift Jeraff]

Whatever he is, he probably can't heal (or at least heal that often/well), seeing as how he brought "Nale" to the chapel for healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html).

I also think it's worth noting that his scales are significantly darker than every kobold we've seen. So I think he's a dragonwrought kobold or something like that with red dragon heritage, but probably with NPC class levels.

[ti'esar]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?

Because he hasn't done any magic yet.

[Cirin]

Between strips #629 and #630, hundreds of theories were posted on this board about how Vaarsuvius' mate was going to kick the dragon's ass.

People also came up with wild speculation that Girard Draketooth was related to the Black Dragon, and that was called ridiculous.

Of course, that is the main example of a wild theory that actually panned out.

Personally, if Kilkil has PC class levels, I'm going with Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.

9th level Dragon Disciple is a way, right there in the core rules, to get dragon wings, without going to funky splats.

He doesn't seem like much of a spellcaster though, and for D. Disciple you only need any spontaneous arcane casting & be able to Speak Draconic and have 8 ranks in Knowledge Arcana. He Might be Expert 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 9. Pretty weak, but it would account for everything he's got, especially if his Sorcerer spells were not combat oriented (Identify and Comprehend Languages for his 1st level spells, Dragon Disciple gives extra spell slots but not continued casting and spells known).

[ti'esar]

Because he hasn't done any magic yet.

He hasn't done much of anything yet, though.

[Finagle]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?
Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

[Steward]

Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

Technically, Belkar is a divine spellcaster. Technically.

[ti'esar]

Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

Depends on how you look at it: intellectual, bureaucratic kobold caster against unintellectual, instinctive halfling melee-monster looks like a decent opposite match-up to me.

I don't particularly think Kilkil is a caster, but I'm not sure why people seem to have dismissed it entirely.

[Marlowe]

Durkon only has his shield showing because that's the stick figure style, too much trouble to draw the hammer in there. Tarquin doesn't carry a weapon. He keeps his axe in storage and only has a dagger for personal protection. He's a general, not a frontline soldier. Elan is special because he's the protagonist. Belkar keeps his daggers in the same place as Tarquin, concealed because they're small enough. I don't want to turn this discussion around because characters can whip out weapons for reasons of plot, but otherwise the comic is remarkably consistent in drawing the characters with their appropriate weapons.

.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Tarquin currently IS heading into battle, and yet we don't see his axe. Being a protagonist has nothing to do with anything. Haley is presumably carrying Crystal's kukri and we're not seeing it all the time. A whole mass of minor other characters have not had their weapons visible until they drew.

Again, Kilkil (or any other character) being drawn with no visible weapons doesn't mean anything other than that he's not using a polearm.

Factotum would be an excellent choice considering obvious prime attribute and his job, trouble is Rich doesn't generally use non-core material for anything other than brief gags. Yokyok (Swashbuckler, presumably) is a counter-example, but he very nearly falls into "brief gag" himself. Plus could easily have been a Fighter/Duelist instead, and thus core.

Did we ever figure out what class the Dwarven hitman (the one who hangs out with the unperceptive shadowdancer) belonged to?

[Blisstake]

I would raise the question though as to what reason we have to think that Kilkil is just a low level expert? It seems to be based entirely on the fact that we haven't seen him do anything that indicates he isn't a low level expert, however the absence of evidence that he is not a low level expert is not in and of itself evidence that he is a low level expert.

Nothing really. If him fighting is important to the plot, however, then I highly doubt he's going to be some obscure class that could confuse readers (such as the factotum or archivist) and require some amount of explanation, when he could simply be an expert, rogue, or fighter or something. Personally, I think he's an expert because it's funny. They're bringing along a kobold whose only powers are statistical analysis and bookeeping. :smallsmile: I can't claim he is for sure, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less what is the most likely. We'll find out when we find out, or we won't at all.

The only thing I was trying to say, however, was he could just have wings because the author had an idea for a flying kobold. It doesn't need to go into proper feat or template application in order to justify having one.

[Marlowe]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

[ti'esar]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

Well, speaking personally as someone who's played 3e D&D, but not regularly and not as an expert, all I know about them that I don't have to look up is what sourcebooks they come from.

[Steward]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

Most of the other classes and races seen in this comic are either made up or found via the d20srd. The Factotum and the Archivist aren't obscure in the sense that they are completely unknown but information about them isn't in the SRD.

[Marlowe]

And as I previously stated, not being in the SRD is a mark against the likelihood of him being one of chose classes, but I don't think it's a conclusive one. We've had Ninjas in the strip almost from the beginning, a Warlock and a Soulknife were present at the tavern brawl, and there's still the debatable status of Yokyok. I wouldn't say they're terribly obscure either. They are popular classes, more so than Bard, if I had to make a guess.

[ti'esar]

We have no reason to believe that the ninjas were actually classed as ninjas, though - they could easily have been some combination of rogue/fighter/assassin that were flavored as ninjas, much as Miko did not have any samurai class. And the others have all been relatively minor characters - Kilkil isn't that important, but he has been around for a while, so I'd say he's important enough that the odds are against him having an "obscure" class.

[Marlowe]

Fair enough. We're liking the Factotum/Archivist theory here because both terms describe aspects of his job, so him being either of them would be a nice joke.

The "low-level expert" theory has a glaring hole in it. Why would both Tarquin and Nale be so pleased about bringing a low level NPC into a hunt for some level 13-15 PCs? Nale's used a low-level PC against the OOTS before (Pompey) but he's since recognized it as a mistake.

A lot depends on Nale and Tarquin. Are they really the sort of people who would pointlessly endanger a useful, allied non-combatant for the sake of a running gag? Well,yes. When doing so would actively reduce their own chances of success compared with many other possible options? Well, still possibly yes for Nale. But Tarquin? The person who would know more about Kilkil's abilities than anyone else?

I think that Tarquin bought Kilkil along for a reason beyond a single punchline, and that Kilkil is more than he seems.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin seemed willing to set off without Kilkil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), or at least that's how I read it. Even if Tarquin doesn't know about the kobold running gag (all we know is that he knows Yikyik), he may have simply been smirking at the idea of an ancillary character acting as cannon fodder.

I suppose he could be thinking "Good, I was just about to ask for him" or "ah yes, we could certainly use his <special ability/power/quality/skill/trait/etc.>."

[Marlowe]

, he may have simply been smirking at the idea of an ancillary character acting as cannon fodder.


So it really comes down to "Is Tarquin that much of a jerk?"

[Finagle]

So it really comes down to "Is Tarquin that much of a jerk?"
I don't agree. Tarquin has shown concern for the welfare of his soldiers. Not out of a sense of altruism, but conservation of scarce resources.

I'm going with 'high-level Factotum' for my guess. It seems to fit the best of all alternatives.

[KillianHawkeye]

So it really comes down to "Is Tarquin that much of a jerk?"

I believe this question was answered with 100-ft. tall flaming letters.

[Marlowe]

Nope, that just showed he's a monster.

How you treat a useful, loyal subordinate is different from how you treat a bunch of escaped slaves.

[ti'esar]

I'd note that even if we assume Tarquin was pleased because of some special skill Kilkil could bring to the table, that skill isn't necessarily combat-related. Perhaps he wanted a methodical bureaucrat to organize a search if needed, for instance.

[Marlowe]

How is "bureaucrat" a relevant skill for conducting a search in a trap-filled pyramid? Or chasing high-mid level adventurers through it? Does Tarquin expect Roy or Belkar to be carrying several reams of unsorted paperwork?

[ti'esar]

Basically, he can handle the tedious details. He won't be much use against the Order, true, but what if (for instance) they need the Draketooths' records for solving some of the illusions that supposedly protect the Gate? It's not like Tarquin knew that those wouldn't be an issue, and despite his stated intention to pull a Belloq, he clearly didn't intend to wait forever for the Order to find the Gate first, so it seems quite possible that he anticipated having to do some searching himself.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be this specifically - my point is just that Tarquin wanting Kilkil along for some specific talent doesn't necessarily equate to Kilkil as a combatant.

[Marlowe]

How are they going to get to the records to help solve the illusions without solving the illusions to get to the records?

OK, I see your point that Kilkil need not have combat-related skills. I'm also thinking that William of Occam is crying.

[Lord Bingo]

Like Fenice I am inclined to think he got recruited because the Linear Guild was short of a Kobolt (for the Belkster to kill). It is a running gag.

I see nothing that makes me think he has any special abilities apart from the wings.

[Chessgeek]

I doubt Tarquin brought someone along if they didn't have any combat useful skills unless he wanted to kill said creature. Given that there is no evidence of bad blood between the two, I think it's more than likely that Kilkil is a more formidable foe than meets the eye.

[Particle_Man]

He is intelligent.

His name is Kilkil (Kill! Kill!).

I am going with Assassin. (Hey it is even OGL!).

I will further speculate that he is a bit undercover and really works for the dragon queen, not Tarquin, when push comes to shove. Heck, it might barely be possible that the kobold was spying on the Tarquin/Malack/Nale conversation and "happened" to arrive at the right time to be recruited.

The easiest would be Rogue/Assassin but I suppose other entry level classes are possible, including Expert.

[Gift Jeraff]

Huh. I like the idea of assassin levels. Fits the name, goes well with the political environment, fits his mundane appearance better than most PC classes IMO (a good assassin isn't obvious), and I totally forgot that their Death Attack and spells use Int. I guess you can blame Crystal for that. :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

...That's the best suggestion I've heard all thread.

[Particle_Man]

(a good assassin isn't obvious)

An evil one even less so. :smallcool:

[kickassfrog]

Nale says bards are a weak class. Who told him that? Tarquin.

Anyway, he's probably an expert.

Tarquin also said bards should be ruling the cosmos by now.

[Fenice]

Should be ruling the cosmos... If they weren't an underpowered class.

[Marlowe]

Should be ruling the cosmos... If they weren't an underpowered class.

The implication was that Bards are "underpowered" in the sense that they have less status in the world than what their class abilities should grant them, not that their abilities are inadequate.

The irony is that this is precisely the complaint Nale makes about Tarquin; that T should be ruling the world right now, but prefers to remain in the shadows.

[Finagle]

He is intelligent.

His name is Kilkil (Kill! Kill!).

I am going with Assassin. (Hey it is even OGL!).
Huh. That's a really good idea. A mild-mannered character doesn't get a name like "Kill kill" for no reason.

[Particle_Man]

The implication was that Bards are "underpowered" in the sense that they have less status in the world than what their class abilities should grant them, not that their abilities are inadequate.

The irony is that this is precisely the complaint Nale makes about Tarquin; that T should be ruling the world right now, but prefers to remain in the shadows.

It does make one wonder why Tarquin didn't take bard levels . . . or maybe he did . . . ?

[ti'esar]

It does make one wonder why Tarquin didn't take bard levels . . . or maybe he did . . . ?

Bards cannot be lawful... which, in a way, is exactly what Tarquin is ranting about.

[Umberhulk]

Shape-changed dragon.

[Particle_Man]

Bards cannot be lawful... which, in a way, is exactly what Tarquin is ranting about.

Ex-Bard, then? :smallcool:

[Kish]

There's no indication that Tarquin was ever any alignment but Lawful Evil.

That doesn't mean it's impossible, but I won't be betting on him having ever been a class that can't be that alignment, m'self.

In any event, if Tarquin never took bard levels, then "Bards can't be Lawful" would be the answer to why he never did so, no matter how powerful he thinks bards are.

[Euodiachloris]

Tarquin still has the soul of a bard, even if he couldn't actually be one due to alignment issues. It also kind of explains his bitterness towards the class, his first love (well, that we know of) being a barmaid in a lovely little tavern in the relative middle of nowhere, both Nale and Elan's class-choices, etc.

And, because of all that... yeah: Kilkil isn't just some nerd with a filing complex. Dramatic imperative insists he has something hidden in there: crouching kobold, hidden dragon?

[Kish]

People said that about Vaarsuvius' nameless-at-the-time mate, too, from the time strip #629 came out to the time #630 came out. "Surely V's mate will be able to beat the dragon!" they said. Lots of them, right up until Vaarsuvius told Qarr "...apprentice baker!"

[Marlowe]

"People have been wrong before" is an argument that supports absolutely nothing and disproves absolutely nothing.

And V's mate being able to solo an ABD without prep WOULD have been an absurdity and WOULD have been a nonsense of the entire story arc.

[Kish]

"People have been wrong before" is an argument that supports absolutely nothing and disproves absolutely nothing.
Good thing that isn't the argument I made then, isn't it?

I'll spell it out, then: "Dramatic imperative" does not mean that the character who appears to be weak is anything but weak. Rich's usual style is for the character who appears to be weak to be exactly as weak as he or she appears to be. Kilkil is a secretary. He may be more than that, but "dramatic imperative" doesn't particularly support it.

[Marlowe]

"People have been wrong before" is the argument you made.

If Kilkil is just a secretary, and is competely ineffectual in a High-Midlevel combat situation, we have Tarquin pointlessly endangering a competent underling for no reason other than an unfunny running gag. A gag Tarquin's not even aware of as far as we know. This would be a cheap trick would undermine Tarquin's character and the seriousness of the situation. It would be an especially cheap trick considering the recent shenanigans with Yukyuk.

If Kilkil actually does have character levels to make him dangerous, no such problem.

[Stormlock]

Calling it now: Kilkil is a high level barbarian. Someone will step on his glasses or something and we'll have an awesome berserker deathmatch between him and Belkar.

There's no reason this COULDN'T be true.

[Marlowe]

You.

Broke.

My.

SPECS!

Tee hee.

[Seharvepernfan]

Okay, wow.

Since he first showed up, I got the impression that he is secretly a badass. I wouldn't have thought assassin, but that fits perfectly.

That said, I sincerely wish he is a barbarian. That would be just...perfect. Thog has been removed from the picture, the other kobold just died (who was a rogue, or rogue/ranger - I guess kinda making him a foil for Belkar) and Tarquin is pretending to be a barbarian, so if Kilkil goes up against Belkar or Roy, and they find out that "Thog" is actually Tarquin, but Kilkil is a barbarian (making him a foil for Belkar)...just perfect.

[Kish]

"People have been wrong before" is the argument you made.
If you say so.


If Kilkil actually does have character levels to make him dangerous, no such problem.
If Tarquin simply doesn't value the life of a mere secretary and was happy to throw in whichever expendable underling Nale wanted for the sixth Linear Guild slot, no such problem either. (And seriously--"Undermine the seriousness of the situation"?) A problem which is based on fan-characterization of Tarquin is not a problem.

[Marlowe]

If you say so.

It's got nothing to do with what I say. It's what you did.




If Tarquin simply doesn't value the life of a mere secretary and was happy to throw in whichever expendable underling Nale wanted for the sixth Linear Guild slot, no such problem either. (And seriously--"Undermine the seriousness of the situation"?) A problem which is based on fan-characterization of Tarquin is not a problem.

You're using "fan-characterisation" as support now? OK, so you're voting for the "Yes, Tarquin IS that much of a jerk" option. Duly noted. Why the patronizing tone though?

[Kish]

It's got nothing to do with what I say. It's what you did.

If you say so.


You're using "fan-characterisation" as support now?

I am saying that "pointlessly endangering a competent underling...undermines Tarquin's character" hinges on fan-characterization. There is not the slightest indication in the comic that Tarquin particularly values the life of anyone who happens to be a competent underling, so it does not undermine his established in the comic character.

[Marlowe]

I would say that based on his portrayal in the comic Tarquin doesn't seem to be the sort to do things "pointlessly". But if you say so.

[Kish]

I would say that based on his portrayal in the comic Tarquin doesn't seem to be the sort to do things "pointlessly". But if you say so.
I wonder what qualifies as "pointless" enough for you to consider Tarquin wouldn't do it.

Obviously not forcing women to marry him. Not making arrangements for two mercenaries (...who probably actually qualify as competent former-underlings of his...) who he had a grudge against to have to fight each other. Not sending them a taunting message. Not having runaway slaves burned alive to spell out the word ELAN.

[Euodiachloris]

But, Kish... here's the thing...

Kilkil isn't just some random PA Tarquin can lose without worry. He's the Chancellor of the Empire of Blood (that happens to also run on red tape). He's not that readily expendable, unless Tarquin wants bureaucratic headaches for six months after getting back (which he presumes he's going to). :smallamused:

How can he just be cannon-fodder simply for the amusement factor? :smallconfused:

Unless you're suggesting Tarquin is sick of the Empire of Blood, and is now moving into the scrapping phase? And we have zero indication of that... :smallsmile:

[Kish]

I'm afraid I don't see the indication that "Tarquin's secretary" is an important enough job for him to be that hard to replace.

Also, Tarquin's attitude toward "dramatic appropriateness" is like Elan's. You say "simply for the amusement factor" as though you were talking about Redcloak; if Nale explained the kobold running gag to Tarquin, then it becomes "for the sake of Tarquin's primary interest." (If he didn't, then it's a question of what he'd do because one of his sons asked him to, and I suspect Kilkil's life still comes out second-best by a very long way in that contest.)

If Kilkil does a paperwork-related job in the Empire of Blood that makes him hard to replace and Tarquin values him enough not to let him die for that, I wonder why Tarquin would have brought him along at all; it's not like the Empire will stop generating paperwork while the general and the head priest are off playing adventurer.

[Marlowe]

We don't know what he had to gain concerning the women. Money? Political power and connections? Evil? Yes. Pointless? We don't know.

The mercenaries had jerked him around in front of his son and had already demonstrated they weren't loyal subordinates by doing so. Also, that they weren't above trying to threaten him (with a poor bluff attempt) and messed with his precious pop culture references.

The slaves? This is how you discourage people from trying to escape. Evil? Brutal? Yes. Pointless no.

Certainly, not to be compared with dragging a noncombatant Chancellor of the Empire into a major fight for no purpose other than to service somebody else's running gag.

We skipped through this sort of thing on page 3, but it was nice to go through it again for you.

[snikrept]

Kobold with wings? He's clearly read Races of the Dragon and he's some sort of gamebreaking cheese build !

[Stormlock]

Oh god, what if Kilkil isn't his real name. What if it's.... Punpun?

[Euodiachloris]

Oh god, what if Kilkil isn't his real name. What if it's.... Punpun?

Heard that theory before. :smallsmile:

Even if he is Punpun hiding behind a desk with lovely gold-rimmed specs... well... I hope not, to be honest. It'd feel like a cop-out to me. Yeah, be a surprise badass, but divine? Please, no... just... no...!

[Toy Killer]

I think Tarquin could appreciate the value of keeping a halfling ranger/barbarian entertained with a flying kobald to be more then worth while. he essentially takes out one of the OotS most uncontrollable and violent members out at the cost of a near-useless combatant... until that near useless combatant is killed.

But seeing as how Belkar seems to love killing kobalds personally with his own hands, as soon as Kilkil realizes he's being hunted down by Belkar, it'll just be a wild goose chase keeping Belkar out of the fray until Haley downs him, Belkar gets pissed, finishes of x/y/ or z and says something along the lines of 'How do you like having your kills taken from You!'.

seeing the low lethality rate for named characters though... I dunno. it's a little anti-climatic for any character to die at this particular moment. I would need to see 850 at least for this premise to be expounded upon.

[Ozfer]

Not that I know anything about the class, but Lore-master comes to mind? OF course... The wings are unexplained...

[Steward]

I think Tarquin could appreciate the value of keeping a halfling ranger/barbarian entertained with a flying kobald to be more then worth while. he essentially takes out one of the OotS most uncontrollable and violent members out at the cost of a near-useless combatant... until that near useless combatant is killed.

Wouldn't it be better if, instead of distracting Belkar, he took along someone who could kill him? The kobold running gag doesn't really make sense from his perspective. Why recruit someone for your evil team specifically intended to lose to his counterpart from the enemy team? Tarquin is a fan of the dramatic but he seems too pragmatic.

[Man on Fire]

So, now that the Linear Guild has disposed of its #3 kobold, they're down to #4, Kilkil. So far, he has shown no skills other than administrative skills. What class could he be and what possible benefit can he bring to the LG? He's not carrying a weapon, otherwise it would be on his back like all other OOTS characters. Concealed daggers?

In the LG, we've got cleric, fighter, bard, wizard, and outsider. My guess is...thief? Or he's some obscure prestige class? Magic device-user? I suppose it'll be a big reveal after being cornered by Belkar, Kilkil suddenly displays awesome powers. Maybe he's there to count the spears and arrows used, to better update the accounting books of the Empire.

My bet is on artifacter. I don't know why, it just seems like a nice choice.

And did anybody ese noticed how he fits into Belkar's relationship with LG's Kobolds? Odd number ones, Yikyik and Yukyuk are just evil and very similiar to Belkar (Giant even said that Yikyik is just Belkar if he was a kobold and Yukyuk acts Belkar before character developmend kicked in and with riding wolf Belkar once wanted), while Yekyek was good and Kilkil is clearly Lawful.

[Steward]

Wow, I never noticed that. I forgot that Yokyok was actually lawful good! (Hmm, I wonder what would have happened if the Order had noticed that first. Belkar is cool and all, but a competent, loyal, and good-aligned version of him would be more useful from the Order's perspective.

[Particle_Man]

Yokyok was probably a swashbuckler, and they are not OGL so Burlew couldn't have him stick around.

If only the OGL were expanded! How long must we wait in darkness!

[aldeayeah]

One possible reason why Kilkil might be more than what he seems is that Tarqin seems to be planning to turn against Nale, and he has to deal with Nale, Sabine and Z. Sure, both he and Malack are powerful, but a bit of extra muscle wouldn't hurt.

[Steward]

Yokyok was probably a swashbuckler, and they are not OGL so Burlew couldn't have him stick around.

If only the OGL were expanded! How long must we wait in darkness!

Oh, I didn't think that Belkar would be replaced by Yokyok. I just think that Roy might have wanted to do that if he had met Yokyok before Belkar did.

[Monarch Dodora]

Belkar is a Ranger, but sucks at Ranger-y things; can't cast spells, can't track, etc.

So possibly Kilkil sucks at his own class.

Kilkil is literate, organised and level-headed.

I'm going Barbarian.

[Kalrany]

Belkar is a Ranger, but sucks at Ranger-y things; can't cast spells, can't track, etc.

So possibly Kilkil sucks at his own class.

Kilkil is literate, organised and level-headed.

I'm going Barbarian.

:smallbiggrin: .........can't. stop. laughing....... *gasp*:smallredface:

[Zmeoaice]

Do you think Kilkil is going to die? I think he may live and possibly be the death of Belkar and use his skull as a paperweight or something, instead of the reverse.

Because:

He showed up before he joined the guild

His name is't "Y*ky*k"

He has wings

The gag has been done 3 times and it is too old.

[Kalrany]

I just wonder how he became Chanceller of the Empire of Blood. After all, it used to be Marion Shewdanker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html)when it was Tyriniaria.

[Steward]

I just wonder how he became Chanceller of the Empire of Blood. After all, it used to be Marion Shewdanker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html)when it was Tyriniaria.

That's true, but I gather that Tarquin shuffles his crew around to different kingdoms. Tarquin probably brought KilKil in to replace Miron after Miron was moved to another empire, since after his regime became firmly esconced he doesn't need yet another high-level adventurer permanently assigned to keep an eye on things.

[fergo]

So, presuming Miron is one of his 'gang'... which one seems likely? :smallbiggrin:

(Although 'Shewdanker' as a PC name? :smallyuk:)

[ti'esar]

So, presuming Miron is one of his 'gang'... which one seems likely? :smallbiggrin:

(Although 'Shewdanker' as a PC name? :smallyuk:)

He's the monk/sorcerer-looking guy, as confirmed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html).

[Gift Jeraff]

It's this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html), which someone amazingly guessed in the #758 thread IIRC.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Kalrany]

Ah... I had missed that one.
But to me that implies that KilKil is one of the gang. I don't see from the text that anyone was moved up -- just laterally switched "to keep things fresh".
It reads like KilKil was one of the partners to swap. But then again, maybe he is referring to his old friend the priest... It kind of depends on the number of people involved in the sawp. However, I got the impression that Malack has been at the location for a while, but that is just an assumption. It seems like the Dragon/Emperass was once a part of the gang, but must not have been high enough to avoid being set up... Yet on the 3rd hand it could be because of her rather silly assumption on how to gain personal power...
There are a number of ways to inpterpret who is and who isn't important/key adventurers. The data is vague.

[Kish]

Ah... I had missed that one.
But to me that implies that KilKil is one of the gang. I don't see from the text that anyone was moved up -- just laterally switched "to keep things fresh".

Check the lineup in #758. Six people, no flying kobold.

Two members of the team are in each location, Tarquin said. In the Empire of Blood, that's Tarquin and Malack.

[Steward]

Ah... I had missed that one.
But to me that implies that KilKil is one of the gang. I don't see from the text that anyone was moved up -- just laterally switched "to keep things fresh".
It reads like KilKil was one of the partners to swap. But then again, maybe he is referring to his old friend the priest... It kind of depends on the number of people involved in the sawp. However, I got the impression that Malack has been at the location for a while, but that is just an assumption. It seems like the Dragon/Emperass was once a part of the gang, but must not have been high enough to avoid being set up... Yet on the 3rd hand it could be because of her rather silly assumption on how to gain personal power...
There are a number of ways to inpterpret who is and who isn't important/key adventurers. The data is vague.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that KilKil was one of the Tarquin gang, but the opposite, actually! I was saying that, after Tarquin's control over the Empire of Blood was completely solidified, he didn't specifically need Miron or in fact any really powerful warrior hanging around so he didn't have a problem hiring KilKil to take his place since he wasn't expecting another major fight.