Arena Tournament, Round 111: Airin vs Tae Bo

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 111: Airin vs. Tae Bo

Map:http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab330/ArenaManager/Arenas/11-scorers_glass_arena.png

XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Airin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=358997) - ybot
Tae Bo (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=337039) - Jopustopin

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[ybot]

initiative [roll0]

purchases and starting location coming soon

[Jopustopin]

Initiative: [roll0]

[Jopustopin]

I will be purchasing a tent (surprise surprise).

Do we begin play with line of sight?

[ybot]

we have los unless you start in the tent

buy potion of reduce person -50 gp

starting position (only open if you start with los)
elemental start in m4 holding Airin
Airin holding loaded sling and sheild

After you post your starting location I will begin

[Jopustopin]

Round 0:

Tent is set up M24-N24. Both flaps are closed. Tae Bo is no where to be seen...

Tie-Dye is in M23-N22Chillin; like a boss

LOS to Tae Bo

Tae Bo is in M24 she's holding a loaded sling in one hand. Nothing in the other. She has four loaded slings within a move action's reach. Her soulmeld is shapedIf I can't start with it shaped let me know

Maneuvers Readied:

Sudden Leap, Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Shadow Blade Technique

[ybot]

Airin round 1

los
air elemental
move+standard: drag Airin to y22
free: drop Airin
Airin
move to s23
ready an action
cast sudden enlarged sudden maximized sunstroke on tae bo if los is gained to him

turn done

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke

[Jopustopin]

Round 1:


LOS to Tae-Bo

Move Action: (Shouting in Elven) to Tie-Dye to "Attack Apparent Enemies"
[roll0]

If successful I'll make a hide check: [roll1]

If I fail I'll try again to handle animal: (Shouting in Elven) to Tie-Dye to "Attack Apparent Enemies"
[roll2]

Swift: Enter stance.

[Jopustopin]

Loading Please Wait.

Ref

Well I failed my handle animal check which sucks. But still, I'm going to need a ref to control my mount and ybot should get a chance to hear me screaming in elven.

Also I'd like a listen check to tell if I can hear his air elemental.

[Psionic Dog]

Master Ref PsiDog

Er...
@Refs
Might as well roll listen.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

@Airin
One question: How?

Generally, creatures can only fly when carrying a light load or less; and your air elemental has no listed ground speed. I'm not sure how it could even move more than 5ft while carrying you.

@Tae Bo
One moment...

[ybot]

@psi dog
The elemental is dragging him. He can drag up to 5 times his max load which Airin is easily within. It is not carrying him so being able to carry only a light load is irrelevant. The elemental is still flying just along the ground. Dragging is a separate mechanic from carrying and is not effected by flying.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs
The only rule I can find on dragging is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a) wizard article.

Those articles are low on the totem pole of Rule Hierarchy, but I cant think of any precedent or logic that contradicts it.


Lets call the tent -5 "listen through door".
DC -5 shout, +5 leather tent +3 distance. DC 3, beat by 10 for comprehension.

Druid take 5 full speed, DC 7 + 3 distance +5 tent = 15. Not heard.
Elemental take 5 full speed DC 3 -3 encumbrance +5tent +6 distance... minor success.

@Ybot
I can't think of any flaw with that argument.
----------------------------------------------------------

@Airin
You hear someone inside the tent shouting: "Attack Apparent Enemies". Then the voice repeats itself.

@Tae Bo
You hear movement to the east.

[Jopustopin]

Los to Tae Bo

Five foot step to N24


I am done with my turn.

[ybot]

Airin round 2

los

Air elemental
move: move to O24
standard: open door

not done need los

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke

[jvluso]

LoS is established when the elemental opens the east tent flap. Tae Bo is in N24, the elemental is in O24, and Airin is in S23.

[ybot]

Airin round 2 part 2

los triggers Airins readied action and he casts sudden enlarged sudden maximized sunstroke on Tae Bo. It deals 12 points of non-lethal damage an you must make a fort save DC 14 or be fatigued.

turn done

[Jopustopin]

Tae Bo falls unconscious.

[Jopustopin]

I assume that I can read through the spoiler blocks due to my character being unconscious.

I'd like to argue against the conclusion of this match for the following reasons:

Account 1: An air elemental cannot drag a creature at full speed.
Account 2: Airin does not have a free hand to cast a spell.

Argument for 1:

Air elemental begins play "holding" Airin. Airin with all of his gear puts our air elemental friend into a heavy load.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes):

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.

PHB indicates that a character can "generally" drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum weight. This vague language calls for adjudication from a DM. The only thing we have to help us out is the web article which tells us that you "move as if encumbered" when dragging something that is greater than a light load but less than your maximum load. Moving as if encumbered usually slows a character with a land speed down (except dwarves). But for an an air elemental, which has no land speed, it would cause it to "not move at all."

Argument:
A creature with a fly speed can not move through the air if encumbered with more than a light load.
Anything causing a creature with a fly speed to move as if encumbered causes it to no longer have the ability to move through the air.
Dragging more than a light weight but less than max on the ground causes a creature to move as if encumbered.
An air elemental only has a fly speed.
Therefore an air elemental cannot move when dragging between a light and max load.

Argument for 2:



elemental start in m4 holding Airin
Airin holding loaded sling and sheild

After you post your starting location I will begin

"You must have at least one hand free to cast spells."

[ybot]

For argument 1 what is the source for the "move as if encumbered" I looked but couldn't find anything in the srd on it.

For argument 2 it doesn't really matter if we rewind he can drop the sling an do the same thing on his turn.

[Jopustopin]

My discussion on the topic was that the player's handbook was unintentionallty vague on the subject matter and required a DMS adjudication by the use of the word "generally" in describing what can or can not be done.

I then mentioned that the only thing we have that helps us adjudicate the rules was the web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a).

In the web article is states, "The rules don't give movement rates for moving heavy objects or for dragging things, but as a rule of thumb, there's no effect on your movement if what you're moving weighs less than your light load rating. You move as though encumbered if you move something that weighs more than your light load rating but no more than your maximum heavy load."

[ybot]

I didn't realize you were using the same article psi dog did.

my counter aurgument

the srd says


A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.
you say

A creature with a fly speed can not move through the air if encumbered with more than a light load
they are not the same the SRD specifies carrying not encumbrance. Because of this it only applies to the carrying rules. Dragging is not a form of carrying and is not effected.

He also did not move more than 140 ft so even if he is encumbered it was still legal

[Jopustopin]

In the player's handbook the section "Lifting and Dragging" fall under the subject "Carrying Capacity." I disagree with your assertion that "dragging" is a separate element than "carrying." I also feel that you are playing word games to avoid making a connection between "encumbrance" and "carrying." I say let the ref's adjudicate after hearing our arguments. The PHB is vague and left open to DM interpretation on the subject. I'd also like to argue that Airin "snags."

PHB:

A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much
as five times his or her maximum load. Favorable conditions (such as
being on smooth ground or dragging a slick object) can double these
numbers, and bad circumstances (such as being on broken ground
or pushing an object that snags) can reduce them to one-half or less.

Specifically I want to know what the movement speed of your air elemental is while dragging you. I argue that it should be zero for the reasons I have stated. You have argued that either the movement should be 100 feet or 70 feet.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

I'm going to agree with Jopustopin here. If your elemental is dragging something, namely you, that would count against its encumberance, putting it above the threshhold for being able to fly and, since it doesn't have another mode of movement listed, it would be stuck with the "full-round action to move five feet" option as its only mode of movement.

[ybot]

I found something else in the races of wild (not sure if I can still argue so feel free to ignore this)
There is an item called a cargo kite in the races of the wild. It allows a flying creature to drag more than its light load through the air but makes the creature encumbered. This shows that a creature can still fly wile encumbered by dragging something. It is the lifting of too much weigh that is the problem not the moving of that weight.

If the argument above does not work, does this mean we have to rewind to round 1?

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Check the wording of the Cargo Kite again. It specifically says that the weight of the kite and its cargo does not count as weight carried by the creatures towing the kite. Basically, its a piece of gear that gets around the normal difficulties of moving large cargos through the air by giving you an exception to the norm. If anything, it actually further proves Jopustopin's position.

Yes, we are rewinding back to round 1.

[ybot]

Can I change my spells prepared?

Assuming I can
Airin round 1

los
air elemental
free: drop Airin
move: move to n9 +30
standard:ready an action to move if los is gained to tae bo

Airin
Full round move to B23

turn done

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
1 sunstroke
1 charm animal

[Sallera]

No, prepared spells are decided before your first actions.

[ybot]

revised stats

hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke
no changes to turn.

[Jopustopin]

Round 1:


LOS to Tae-Bo

Move Action: Handle Animal to Tie-Dye to "Attack Apparent Enemies"
[roll0]


Not done

[Jopustopin]

Round 1: Continued

Los To Tae Bo

I'll try again: [roll0]
Shouting to my horse "Attack Apparent Enemies"


Ref

Well I succeeded on my handle animal check which rocks. I'm going to need a ref to control my mount and ybot should get a chance to hear me screaming.

Also I'd like a listen check to tell if I can hear his air elemental.


Not done.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs
Hmm. I do believe the mule also has to pass the listen check by 10 for comprehension of the order.

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

Clarification:

Airin
B23? Did you mean B4? A double would appear to only grant you 60ft of movement, and a run requires a straight line path.

[ybot]

@psi dog
yes

[Psionic Dog]

Airin
Tie-Dye gives a snort, looks around, and trots in your direction: double moving to E17/F18

No LoS to Tae Bo

Tae Bo
No LoS.

You don't here anything either.

Play on. :smallcool:

[Jopustopin]

Turn Done. Rock on.

[ybot]

Airin round 1

los
air elemental
free: drop Airin
move: move to n19 +30
standard:ready an action to move if los is gained to tae bo

Airin
Full round move to G13

turn done

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke


edit: actually round 2

[Jopustopin]

Round 2:

LOS

I'd like a new hearing check. Specifically which way does it sound like my horse went? Do I hear anyone new approaching?


Not done.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs
[roll0]

It just occurred to me that Airin is probably speaking (DC 0) to give orders to the elemental. If so, that might change a future listen check, but nothing from rounds 1 or 2.


Airin
TieDye continues to advance toward you, double move squeezing into I14/J14 in his attempt to close.

No change from the tent.

PS: How are you communicating with the elemental?

Tae Bo
You hear/heard nothing: not even the mule.

No LoS.

Play On. :smallsmile:

[ybot]

Jopus are you done with your turn?

[Jopustopin]

LOS to Tae Bo

Tae Bo will ready an action to close the tent if she can see someone casting a spell.


If my mount has gone this round then I am done with my turn.

[ybot]

@refs
talking

Airin round 3

los
air elemental
move: move to o24 +0
standard:ready an action to move if los is gained to tae bo

Airin
Full round move to c20

turn done

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke

[Jopustopin]

LOS to Tae Bo

Passive Listen Check
Move Action: Listen check to try to hear things that I failed to hear previously.


Need Ref to control mount. Not done with my turn yet.

[Psionic Dog]

You might need to find a new ref: my posting will be slowish and sporadic for the next few weeks.

@Refs
[roll0]
[roll1]

That hears... almost everything. As simple successes.
Druid: Speech: DC 0 + distance(6) + tent(5) = DC 11
Druid: Movement: DC 7 + distance(5) + tent(5) = DC 17
Mule: Movement: DC 2 + distance(5) + tent(5) = DC 12
Elemental: Movement: DC 3 + distance(1) + tent(5) = DC 9


Airin
The Mule squeezes back the way it came and double-moves over to B18/C19

Tae Bo
You passively hear speech to the NorthWest, movement to the NorthWest, and movement to the East.
Further listening didn't tell you anything new.

[Jopustopin]

LOS to Tae Bo

Standard: Ready an action to close the tent flaps if I see someone casting a spell.


Turn done.

[ybot]

Airin round 4

los
air elemental
move: open door
free: shout what it sees



turn not done need los

stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke

[jvluso]

Refs:
Nothing

Tae Bo:
The east side door opens, the air elemental is in O24 shouting in Aurian.

Airin:
The air elemental shouts, "Tae Bo is in M24"

Jopustopin, you may take your readied action

[Jopustopin]

Ref

I am unable to take my readied action as the trigger has not occurred.


LOS to Tae Bo

Does nothing.


Done.

[ybot]

Airin round 5

los to air elemental
air elemental
five foot step to
standard: slam tae bo
[roll0]
[roll1]


los to airin
full round: withdraw to n22

turn done
stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
2 sunstroke

[Jopustopin]

Ref

I'd like a passive listen check. Then I'd like someone to control my mount. Then, as appropriate, I'd like another passive listen check.


LOS to Tae Bo

Passive Listen Check.


Not Done.

[jvluso]

@Refs
[roll0]

Druid: Speech: DC 0 + distance(6) + tent(5) = DC 11
Druid: Movement: DC 7 + distance(1) + tent(5) = DC 13
Mule: Movement: DC 2 + distance(1) + tent(5) = DC 8


Airin
The Mule double-moves over to J22/K23

Tae Bo
Sorry about last time, I was tired when I read that. Fortunately it didn't affect anything.

You hear nothing.

[Jopustopin]

LOS to Tae Bo

I'm going to open the tent flap on my side as a move action and I'm going to hide as part of this action (obviously not from the air elemental)
Hide: [roll0]


Still not done.

[ybot]

Jopus, Are you still around?

[Jopustopin]

But of course. I think I was waiting on ref to give me some information.

[Psionic Dog]

Ok, lets try to to get this match finished.
Maybe Round 111 can play itself out.

LoS!

@Airin
No change.

@Tae Bo
You see your mule in J22/K23.

No LoS to your humanoid foe.

Play On!

[Jopustopin]

@Ref

I was thinking worst case scenario I trigger a ready action and die. This actually seems worse...


LOS to Tae Bo

Already used a move action to open the tent flap.

Move Action: Moving away from the element in a straight line until I get LOS or I run out of movement (E24). This movement provokes an AoO from the air elemental.

Ref

I still have a swift action left at the end of my turn and want to see the results of the move action before I decide to enter my stance (which I forgot to do on round 1) or use sudden leap.



Not done....

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs
[roll0]

@TaeBo
As soon as you move out of the tent into L24 you see Airin in N22.

[Jopustopin]

Ref

Air elemental gets an AoO.


LOS

Continue move action to E25.
Swift: Sudden Leap
Jump Check: [roll0]

[Jopustopin]

LOS to Tae Bo

Jump to B26


Turn Done.

[Psionic Dog]

LoS Established

@Tae Bo
Elemental AoO:
[roll0]
[roll1]

With a dash and a sudden leap flees to B-26.

The Mule is in J22/K23.
The elemental is in the tent at N24.
Airin is at N22.

Ok, so technically Airin and the elemental can't see each other, but Airin at least knows where the elemental is.


Airin, your turn. Also, roll an AoO for the elemental against Tae Bo.

[ybot]

Airin round 6

Air elemental AOO
attack [roll0]
damage [roll1]

airin
free: drop anything in his hands
move: move to k25 (through o23 and m25)
standard: cast a sudden maximized sudden enlarged sun stroke on Tae Bo
It deals 12 points of non-lethal damage an you must make a fort save DC 14 or be fatigued.

turn done
stats
hp 9/9
ac 16

spells
2 cure minor
1 light
1 sunstroke


turn done

[Jopustopin]

I must have mis-counted. Very peculiar... you can only move to L25 (one of your diagonal movements cuts through the tent) but that's still 50 feet.

Tae Bo is unconscious.

[Psionic Dog]

Master Ref PsiDog

Airin's magic trumps.