The Incredible Hulk vs Superman

[Irbis]

Exactly what is says on the tin.

In one corner - Man of Steel, faster than plot, more powerful than the author's pen.

In another - powered by the eternal and perpetual hangover, the Incredible Hulk.

Both are reasonably fresh and armed with standard resources they usually should be able to and display their usual abilities.

Scenario - Mister Mxyzptlk, bored as usual, subtly manipulates Hulk towards Metropolis, then, casts illusion showing great enemy of each on both of them, picking a foe expected to have such powers (like casting Doomsday's visage on Hulk) so that neither suspects anything during the battle. This in NOT mind control, simple illusion, therefore it's not resistible. Then, he makes sure allies of both are busy and it's mano-a-mano.

Who wins?

For bonus points, would non-standard, alternate versions of these heroes (like super-intelligent Hulk or electric Superman) fare any better?

[Selrahc]

Superman has a more diverse powerset, fights more intelligently *and* can hang out in the Hulks weightclass in a straight out physical brawl. In any sort of standard match up? Supes has it cold.

Hulk when sufficiently raged out does have some significant advantages. WorldWarHulk fought a lot more intelligently than regular Hulk does, and was a *lot* stronger, probably moving right out of Superman's strength level. Hulk in general also has a lot more impressive regeneration, so if it did get into an extended slugfest, Hulk does have an advantage.

Let's quickly cover ways in which Superman can not easily nullify Hulk, one by one.
1. "What if Superman just hovered around lasering Hulk? Hulk has no ranged attacks and so would eventually be taken down"
Ignoring for the moment things like thrown rocks or thunderclaps, Superman's eye lasers seem to be less powerful than his punches by a large degree. All his heat ray will do is piss Hulk off.

2. "Supes can just fly Superman into space and dump him there. Since Hulk can't fly and does need to breathe eventually, that's a win for Supes."
In order to do that, Supes would need to grapple Hulk, and even at Superspeed, the time spent grappling would be very dangerous. If Hulk gets a grip on Supes, then dumping him won't be easy.

3. "Well what if Supes just lifts up a big chunk of Earth that Hulk is standing on, and throws that into space?"
Hulk can easily destroy any object he is on, and fall back to Earth. It's a good method to reposition Hulk away from say... a city. But it won't be able to get Hulk into space.

4. "Superspeed means that Superman will be able to beat up Hulk a bajillion times before Hulk even realizes the combat has begun."
Superspeed isn't really used that way by Superman. Counterintuitive as it may seem, it appears that if Superman wants to hit hard, he needs to punch slower. Superspeed can be used to dodge or manoeuvre very effectively, or beat up a lot of weak opponents quickly, but against strong opponents Supes tends to stick to slower attacks.


Overall though, Supes definitely does have the advantage.

[Ravens_cry]

It's Terrasque verses wizard, no contest. Supes can fly. Moreover, he has a ranged attack. Plus, he is superfast.
Not Flash fast, but fast.
And tough, very tough.
"Nigh invulnerable" tough.
If he can be convinced Hulk is an eminent threat, he could just carry and throw Hulk into the sun. I don't think this is likely, Superman almost never kills, but it would do it.

[Traab]

It honestly depends on the various versions of each. I think superman would win as he has more than blind rage and his fists to work with. The hulk is FAR slower than superman, in every conceivable way. Superman is literally capable of punching the hulk into outer space. No grapple required. It may take a few shots to keep that momentum going but boom boom boom, gone. He doesnt even have to get launched into space, just high enough that the air is too thin for him to breathe and he passes out. Superman can maneuver in midair, the hulk cant. Once his feet leave the ground not under his own power, the hulk is wide open for some air combo juggling until he passes out and dehulks.

[DefKab]

Did... Did no one read the comic in which this event happened? Everytime Superman hit Hulk, Hulk got madder. And a madder Hulk is a stronger Hulk, and a tougher Hulk. It was effectively a draw, but didnt address that at night, Supes is significantly weaker. Lets face it, if Supes doesnt put the Hulk to sleep, eventually he's gonna run away. If its bar fight standards, Superman loses every day. But Superman will find a way to calm the Hulk down, negating the issue.

[Ravens_cry]

How much weaker IS Superman at night?
I know he's not like Nuclear Man from the fourth film, who couldn't carry a charge for darn, but in the media I have seen, night never made a significant difference.

[Trixie]

It honestly depends on the various versions of each. I think superman would win as he has more than blind rage and his fists to work with.

Isn't that a weakness, mostly? :smallconfused:

I mean, Superman constantly pulls his punches, afraid he will harm his enemy, making him much more likely to only enrage Hulk and make him stronger than Supes. Unlike big S, Hulk doesn't have upper limit on his strength, after all. Flying is nice, but Hulk has quasi-flight too (leaps) and he can always bounce off Superman into needed direction if they clash in mid air.

Launching Hulk into space isn't practical, IMHO, you need to get close to do that, opening yourself for counterpunch, and somehow, Superman never uses that ability anyway. Plus, weakest Hulk incarnation, Grey Hulk, was indeed punched into space by Spiderman, and all it did was to force him to hold his breath until he would have (as stated by Hulk) passed out due to exhaustion. Since doing that would kill innocent, dr Banner, Superman would never do that.

Ranged attack? If you mean eye lasers, Hulk tanked supernovas. Unless Superman can do better, see above to 'more enraged' Hulk section, and besides, unless Superman utterly tears Hulk into quarks Hulk can regenerate any possible damage from that, too. See 'killing innocent' section.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oooooh boy here we go.

I've actually seen this a handful of times in comics circles. Nobody really objected to this match-up's results in Marvel vs DC. And most people I've seen with this is agreed loosely that while Hulk might just be stronger if they were weight lifting Supes has all his other advantages, particularly speed and flight.

But don't mind me I expect this to rival Goku vs Superman *gets popcorn and sets to watch*

[McStabbington]

Supes most likely. Hulk does have some advantages. He's as strong as Marvel heroes come, he regenerates at a rate that would put Wolverine to shame, and his powers scale up as he gets more angry. The problem is that even those advantages don't fully allow him to match Superman. Hulk is usually classed in the Level 10 strength, meaning he's a Marvel character that can lift 100 or more tons, though he doesn't start out that strong. Post Infinite-Crisis Superman, who has been scaled way down in strength, can still pick up a 747 which tips the scales at slightly under 500 tons. And while Superman doesn't regenerate as fast as Hulk, he does have a regenerative capacity, particularly if he can get direct exposure to sunlight. This is in addition to his heat vision, cold breath and flight. So really, unless Superman makes the mistake of toying around with Hulk for hours or something, Hulk is just not in Superman's league.

[Selrahc]

Hulk is usually classed in the Level 10 strength, meaning he's a Marvel character that can lift 100 or more tons, though he doesn't start out that strong.

Hulk most certainly does start out that strong. The baseline strength of the Hulk is at the same level as Marvel heavyweights like Thor and Hercules. Hulk *is* the strongest one there is. And Level 10 Strength characters are often seen doing feats which take far in excess of 100 tons of carrying capacity.

When the Hulk gets going? Welll....
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/75967-90083-hulk_super.jpg

[Bhu]

Which hulk are we discussing? Maestro or one of the intelligent Hulks could synthesize kryptonite fairly easily if given a sample of it. God knows every other villain in teh DC universe can do it...

[Tiki Snakes]

Superman wins because he is smart enough and has enough tricks and technology at his disposal to figure out that it IS the hulk he is fighting, rather than whatever illusion it is that has been put over the hulk, and then do something about negating the Hulk's reason for or ability to fight.

For example, flying off to deal with Mister Mxyzptlk or calming the hulk down sufficiently that he simply wanders off or turns back into Banner, depending on the version.

Otherwise a straight fight would go pretty much as it does in the comics, for obvious reasons.

[lord_khaine]

Launching Hulk into space isn't practical, IMHO, you need to get close to do that, opening yourself for counterpunch, and somehow, Superman never uses that ability anyway. Plus, weakest Hulk incarnation, Grey Hulk, was indeed punched into space by Spiderman, and all it did was to force him to hold his breath until he would have (as stated by Hulk) passed out due to exhaustion. Since doing that would kill innocent, dr Banner, Superman would never do that.

But firstly Superman doesnt know about innocent Dr Banner, so he would have no problems launching his opponent out into orbit where he would be helpless, and when he changes back superman could carry him back down to earth fast enough to avoid any permanent damage.

Also, yes this tactic does open Superman up for a counter attack, but he is one of the very few people who are tough enough to slug it out with the Hulk.

And regarding why Superman doesnt usualy use this tactic, then most of his opponents can fly or something like that.

Edit.


When the Hulk gets going? Welll....

That is impressive, but Superman once moved the moon :smallamused:


Which hulk are we discussing? Maestro or one of the intelligent Hulks could synthesize kryptonite fairly easily if given a sample of it. God knows every other villain in teh DC universe can do it...

Actualy, the only guy i can think off who has produced synthetic K is Lex Luther, and he did spend a lot of resources on it.

Also, as i recall the electric superman were immune to kryptonite.

[McStabbington]

Hulk most certainly does start out that strong. The baseline strength of the Hulk is at the same level as Marvel heavyweights like Thor and Hercules. Hulk *is* the strongest one there is. And Level 10 Strength characters are often seen doing feats which take far in excess of 100 tons of carrying capacity.

When the Hulk gets going? Welll....
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/75967-90083-hulk_super.jpg

We may be thinking of differing incarnations of the Hulk then, because it was my understanding that quite a few characters, such as Abomination (who is to my knowledge either not a Class-10 character, or still rated below Hercules, Thanos or Thor), could top his baseline. It's just that Hulk keeps getting stronger whereas they usually don't.

[Devonix]

Superman has a more diverse powerset, fights more intelligently *and* can hang out in the Hulks weightclass in a straight out physical brawl. In any sort of standard match up? Supes has it cold.

Hulk when sufficiently raged out does have some significant advantages. WorldWarHulk fought a lot more intelligently than regular Hulk does, and was a *lot* stronger, probably moving right out of Superman's strength level. Hulk in general also has a lot more impressive regeneration, so if it did get into an extended slugfest, Hulk does have an advantage.

Let's quickly cover ways in which Superman can not easily nullify Hulk, one by one.
1. "What if Superman just hovered around lasering Hulk? Hulk has no ranged attacks and so would eventually be taken down"
Ignoring for the moment things like thrown rocks or thunderclaps, Superman's eye lasers seem to be less powerful than his punches by a large degree. All his heat ray will do is piss Hulk off.

In Planet Hulk the Hulk was seriously hurt by Lava. Superman's heat vision when he focuses is hotter than the core of a star.

2. "Supes can just fly Superman into space and dump him there. Since Hulk can't fly and does need to breathe eventually, that's a win for Supes."
In order to do that, Supes would need to grapple Hulk, and even at Superspeed, the time spent grappling would be very dangerous. If Hulk gets a grip on Supes, then dumping him won't be easy.

Moving as fast as he does in flight means that it takes seconds to get into the upper atmosphere

3. "Well what if Supes just lifts up a big chunk of Earth that Hulk is standing on, and throws that into space?"
Hulk can easily destroy any object he is on, and fall back to Earth. It's a good method to reposition Hulk away from say... a city. But it won't be able to get Hulk into space.

same as above

4. "Superspeed means that Superman will be able to beat up Hulk a bajillion times before Hulk even realizes the combat has begun."
Superspeed isn't really used that way by Superman. Counterintuitive as it may seem, it appears that if Superman wants to hit hard, he needs to punch slower. Superspeed can be used to dodge or manoeuvre very effectively, or beat up a lot of weak opponents quickly, but against strong opponents Supes tends to stick to slower attacks.

Superman fights a lot of superspeed opponeents thats why it sometimes seems like he's not using it. Using superspeed he can and has gone intangible while Spiderman is fast enough to dodge the hulk


Overall though, Supes definitely does have the advantage.


The advantages are actually far more

[Devonix]

Also who said that Supes is weaker at night? this isn't Avatar and he isn't a Waterbender.

Also Hulk is strong, but he's strong by regular Marvel U character terms. there are many characters, bot stronger and more powerful than the Hulk has ever been shown to be.


even in Purely physical means Superman outmatches him, and thats not bringin in his better combat training and intellect.

[Selrahc]

In Planet Hulk the Hulk was seriously hurt by Lava. Superman's heat vision when he focuses is hotter than the core of a star.

Can hardly be called standard. Supes has his own line of empowered feats, the same way Hulk does. Supes standard heat vision is not star level, and it definitely does not seem to be as powerful in combat as punching somebody.


Moving as fast as he does in flight means that it takes seconds to get into the upper atmosphere

So Hulk has seconds to react to being grabbed. That is a reaction time that almost anybody could handle.


Superman fights a lot of superspeed opponeents thats why it sometimes seems like he's not using it.

I can remember plenty of cases where Superman is clearly not using superspeed against an opponent without superspeed, and has trouble. He doesn't use it in any kind of versus thread relevant way against heavy weight opponents. If you think he does, I would appreciate examples.

[Devonix]

Can hardly be called standard. Supes has his own line of empowered feats, the same way Hulk does. Supes standard heat vision is not star level, and it definitely does not seem to be as powerful in combat as punching somebody.



So Hulk has seconds to react to being grabbed. That is a reaction time that almost anybody could handle.



I can remember plenty of cases where Superman is clearly not using superspeed against an opponent without superspeed, and has trouble. He doesn't use it in any kind of versus thread relevant way against heavy weight opponents. If you think he does, I would appreciate examples.



am not talking about empowered, or Sundipped feats, am talking about baseline regular universe superman feats and abilities.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/863/supermansheatvision30nk.jpg



http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8360/08222005124926pm7ji.jpg



http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3679/08222005125029pm5zg.jpg


Just a couple of regular continuity, non high level feats. showing speed and heatvision.


Once when the sun was just plain gone he used his heatvision to substitute the heat of the sun and keep the planet from freezing to death.

[Devonix]

Also Supes has been clocked in at lifting over a Quintillion which beats out anything Hulk's done at any time.

[Xondoure]

am not talking about empowered, or Sundipped feats, am talking about baseline regular universe superman feats and abilities.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/863/supermansheatvision30nk.jpg



http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8360/08222005124926pm7ji.jpg



http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3679/08222005125029pm5zg.jpg


Just a couple of regular continuity, non high level feats. showing speed and heatvision.


Once when the sun was just plain gone he used his heatvision to substitute the heat of the sun and keep the planet from freezing to death.

This is flux Superman. The sort of incredible power that mysteriously vanishes whenever the rules of drama intervene (read: any vs. fight.)

Basically I'm willing to bet whatever damage super can dish out if it fails to instantly kill Hulk, will only make him more upset. Trying to overpower Hulk conventionally starts an escalating arms race you cannot win. It's like spiral power turned up to RAGE!

[Devonix]

This is flux Superman. The sort of incredible power that mysteriously vanishes whenever the rules of drama intervene (read: any vs. fight.)

Basically I'm willing to bet whatever damage super can dish out if it fails to instantly kill Hulk, will only make him more upset. Trying to overpower Hulk conventionally starts an escalating arms race you cannot win. It's like spiral power turned up to RAGE!

Hulk has been beaten into submission, it is fully possible to hit the Hulk Hard enough and fast enough that he just goes down.

[Prime32]

In Planet Hulk the Hulk was seriously hurt by Lava. Superman's heat vision when he focuses is hotter than the core of a star.Hulk was significantly weakened for most of that storyline, due to the planet's weird atmosphere. World War Hulk was the result of him leaving the atmosphere.

[Devonix]

Hulk was significantly weakened for most of that storyline, due to the planet's weird atmosphere.

The Lava thing was at the end of the storyline when he was the strongest he'd ever been. Also the weakness had nothing to do with the planets atmosphere. When beings travel through the portal to get there the energy of the portal makes you temporarilly weaker. Its the reason they were able to capture him. as well as the Silver Surfer. The effects wear off though after a few days.

Though Hulk did heal after he got out of the Lava

[Man on Fire]

The only way Superman can beat Hulk is through Blitzkrieg - he needs to outsmart him and knock him down very early in their fight, otherwise Hulk will get stronger with every punch, until he'll beat Man of Steel easily. if Super think this is a Doomsday, it may prove his undoing - he might try to get careful (I would be around guy who killed me once) or get him away from the people or go all out (thinking it's Doomsday) which may either grant him quick victory or piss of Hulk and lead to his defeat.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't know much about the Hulk besides the basics. That said I think Supes would win.



However I do know I version of the Hulk that would win. Hulk with the Red Lantern Ring :smallcool:

[Devonix]

The only way Superman can beat Hulk is through Blitzkrieg - he needs to outsmart him and knock him down very early in their fight, otherwise Hulk will get stronger with every punch, until he'll beat Man of Steel easily. if Super think this is a Doomsday, it may prove his undoing - he might try to get careful (I would be around guy who killed me once) or get him away from the people or go all out (thinking it's Doomsday) which may either grant him quick victory or piss of Hulk and lead to his defeat.

Hits don't make Hulk stronger Anger does, its just that pain fuels his rage. He still takes damage from getting hit.

It isn't as if hitting him has no effect on him.

[hobbitkniver]

Superman is the most unbalanced character ever made. Good at Everything, bad at nothing. Only stoppable by an incredibly rare meteoritic stone which everyone somehow seems to get their hands on. He's really not that interesting because of how ridiculous it is to have no flaws and one small weakness.

[Cen]

Eh? wouldn't it go pretty much like Doomsday vs Supes? Which ended in draw/double death? I mean - DD's power are pretty much like Hulk's - he is a big walking nigh-invincible brick, and still neither flying nor superspeed or heatray heleps Supes. But Hulk is MUCH stronger than DD.

My money is on Hulk.

[Devonix]

Eh? wouldn't it go pretty much like Doomsday vs Supes? Which ended in draw/double death? I mean - DD's power are pretty much like Hulk's - he is a big walking nigh-invincible brick, and still neither flying nor superspeed or heatray heleps Supes. But Hulk is MUCH stronger than DD.

My money is on Hulk.

Doomsday's got superspeed, Invulnerability, ((Hulk isn't invulnerable he just has a healing factor like wolverine only stronger)) Doesn't need to breath and is immune to most forms of energy attacks.

[inexorabletruth]

Didn't they already go toe to toe once in a comic. If I recall, Hulk smashed. I can't remember the issue. Someone help me out here. It wasn't World War Hulk was it?

I'm not much of a Hulk fan, or a Superman fan; they're both too OP, but I'm pretty sure this battle happened.

[Dark Elf Bard]

:thog:remember, Hulk gets stronger every time blue flying-man hurts Hulk!

[Devonix]

Didn't they already go toe to toe once in a comic. If I recall, Hulk smashed. I can't remember the issue. Someone help me out here. It wasn't World War Hulk was it?

I'm not much of a Hulk fan, or a Superman fan; they're both too OP, but I'm pretty sure this battle happened.

They've fought a couple of times, in every comic Superman came out on top though.

[Devonix]

:thog:remember, Hulk gets stronger every time blue flying-man hurts Hulk!

That just means when he gets knocked out he's a very strong unconsious person.

They both have high level feats its just that Superman's normal showings are more powerful than Hulk's

And Supermans High level showings Demolish Hulks high level showings.

Superman vs Silver Surfer, Thanos, Gladiator, or Thor. is a much much better fight

Hulk's Earth strong, those guy's are Cosmic level strong

[Soras Teva Gee]

This is flux Superman. The sort of incredible power that mysteriously vanishes whenever the rules of drama intervene (read: any vs. fight.)

Any vs fight, nah. No if anything the opposite is true, fans patch together five or more half-remembered different instances, be they separated by years of publishing and many different authors, as best suits their case. Which I find most interesting because I doubt this thread will reference a single in-continuity example for Superman.

I you meant in-universe where why does some claimed feat never get in the way of some fight... well I'd say that problem is precisely why I view superhero power levels and Supes in particular not by the exact details of any particular story but in more vague terms anyways.

And its not just Supes that one needs to take a more vague stance on, its many of the ultra heavy weights. Hulk has definitely smacked around Hercules who once towed the island of Manhattan around with a big chain. Know that Marvel has no hard reboots try to wrap your mind around that.

[Tirian]

Didn't they already go toe to toe once in a comic. If I recall, Hulk smashed. I can't remember the issue. Someone help me out here. It wasn't World War Hulk was it?

They fought in DC vs. Marvel. Superman won, but you have to keep in mind that the decision was based on a reader poll. Does that mean that comic book fans were impartial or that there were more DC readers than Marvel readers participating?

The way I see it, Superman can dependably beat Mongul, who is stronger than he is and impervious to pain, so I can visualize him beating Hulk. Okay, Hulk gets stronger yet as the fight goes on, and maybe that works when you're fighting a guy like Thor who is just going to stand there, but I think Hulk is going to be punching a lot of air when he's fighting a speedster.

[Devonix]

They fought in DC vs. Marvel. Superman won, but you have to keep in mind that the decision was based on a reader poll. Does that mean that comic book fans were impartial or that there were more DC readers than Marvel readers participating?

The way I see it, Superman can dependably beat Mongul, who is stronger than he is and impervious to pain, so I can visualize him beating Hulk. Okay, Hulk gets stronger yet as the fight goes on, and maybe that works when you're fighting a guy like Thor who is just going to stand there, but I think Hulk is going to be punching a lot of air when he's fighting a speedster.

Superman has fought the hulk two other times and beaten him as well as those

[Devonix]

Any vs fight, nah. No if anything the opposite is true, fans patch together five or more half-remembered different instances, be they separated by years of publishing and many different authors, as best suits their case. Which I find most interesting because I doubt this thread will reference a single in-continuity example for Superman.

I you meant in-universe where why does some claimed feat never get in the way of some fight... well I'd say that problem is precisely why I view superhero power levels and Supes in particular not by the exact details of any particular story but in more vague terms anyways.

And its not just Supes that one needs to take a more vague stance on, its many of the ultra heavy weights. Hulk has definitely smacked around Hercules who once towed the island of Manhattan around with a big chain. Know that Marvel has no hard reboots try to wrap your mind around that.

I never understand this way of thinking. What constitutes In continuity when the feats people bring up happen in regular issues. I guess one could take the weakest showing of a character and then their strongest and meet s omewhere in the middle.

[Skeller]

They fought in DC vs. Marvel. Superman won, but you have to keep in mind that the decision was based on a reader poll. Does that mean that comic book fans were impartial or that there were more DC readers than Marvel readers participating?
Actually the results of the Superman and Batman fights were never really up to the readers. DC would not even agree to the whole thing if those two did not win. Everything else was decided by the poll though.

That aside my money is on a draw.

[Devonix]

Actually the results of the Superman and Batman fights were never really up to the readers. DC would not even agree to the whole thing if those two did not win. Everything else was decided by the poll though.

That aside my money is on a draw.


Batman didn't win his fight though. my mistake he did.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Actually the results of the Superman and Batman fights were never really up to the readers. DC would not even agree to the whole thing if those two did not win. Everything else was decided by the poll though.

That aside my money is on a draw.

If you are going to accuse the companies of blatantly lying to their readers by collecting votes they never actually counted I'd like to know your source on this.

There were fights not decided by vote, but I distinctly remember the little contest entry form with those two matches.

[Bhu]

Also Supes has been clocked in at lifting over a Quintillion which beats out anything Hulk's done at any time.

In one of the secret wars comics the intelligent hulk supported the weight of an entire mountain range

http://www.incrediblehulkonline.com/strengthfeats.html

Here we go:

Has broken an asteroid twice the size of earth, has held up a 150 billion ton mountain range, and has repeatedly been said even by Uatu the watcher that his strength level has no finite limit. The normal dumb green hulk starts at around 75 tons, grey hulks is somewhat weaker at around 60 i think, and the intelligent incarnations usually start around 80-85. I'd have to recheck because it's been a while.



I don't know much about the Hulk besides the basics. That said I think Supes would win.



However I do know I version of the Hulk that would win. Hulk with the Red Lantern Ring :smallcool:


There was a comic where the Hulk gained the powers of Captain Universe, which would give him flight, x ray vision, energy projection etc,.


Doomsday's got superspeed, Invulnerability, ((Hulk isn't invulnerable he just has a healing factor like wolverine only stronger)) Doesn't need to breath and is immune to most forms of energy attacks.


The Hulk has survived being at ground zero of several nuclear explosions. There's a soviet villain team parodying the Fantastic Four that has a member who can project electromagnetic radiation that once fried off almost all the flesh of the Hulks body reducing him to little more than a skeleton and shreds of organs. It took him seconds to regen to full. He's not invulnerable but with his healing factor as retconned, the only way to take him out is overwhelm him in one hit. You need to do enough damage to make him dead or unconscious in one shot, or he's back to full by the time you get the chance for another one. Its how he beats a lot of his brick type foes. They have heavy armor and are initially stronger. But over time he just keeps getting stronger to the point he can get through their damage resistance no matter how strong, and he just keeps healing whatever they do.

[Devonix]

In one of the secret wars comics the intelligent hulk supported the weight of an entire mountain range

http://www.incrediblehulkonline.com/strengthfeats.html

Here we go:

Has broken an asteroid twice the size of earth, has held up a 150 billion ton mountain range, and has repeatedly been said even by Uatu the watcher that his strength level has no finite limit. The normal dumb green hulk starts at around 75 tons, grey hulks is somewhat weaker at around 60 i think, and the intelligent incarnations usually start around 80-85. I'd have to recheck because it's been a while.


I was including those feats of strength as examples of his feats being lower than anything Supes has done


There was a comic where the Hulk gained the powers of Captain Universe, which would give him flight, x ray vision, energy projection etc,.

Captain Universe powers would put him above superman while he retains those abilities. Since Captain Universe is the chosen protector of Eternity. and has everything that comes with that bestowed on who the current holder is.

Though holding onto those powers can be tough.

[Trixie]

Small addendum:


Also Supes has been clocked in at lifting over a Quintillion which beats out anything Hulk's done at any time.

According to TvTropes:

"The main gimmick behind the Hulk is that he is super strong, and his strength and durability increase the angrier he gets, often to ridiculous levels (somehow handling the core of a black hole, holding apart spheres of matter and anti-matter, holding together a collapsing planet, punching through barriers of spatial or temporal dimensions, occasionally overpowering cosmic entities, etc."

Meaning, Hulk can punch concepts such as time and space so hard they do what he wants them to. Don't ask me how it works, but it sure beats feats of "pure" strength.

According to Wikipedia:


The Hulk is resistant to most forms of injury or damage. The extent varies between interpretations, but he has withstood the equivalent of solar temperatures,[44] nuclear explosions,[45] and planet-shattering impacts.[46]

Damage resistance.


The Hulk's powerful legs allow him to leap into lower Earth orbit or across continents,[52] and he has displayed sufficient superhuman speed to match Thor,[53] and Sentry.[54]

Speed - note Sentry is capable of lightspeed-level travel.


As Bruce Banner, he is considered one of the greatest minds on Earth. He has developed expertise in the fields of biology, chemistry, engineering, and physiology, and holds a Ph.D. in nuclear physics. He possesses "a mind so brilliant it cannot be measured on any known intelligence test."[61]

Intelligence. Yes, Hulk is in most cases dumber than Banner, but seeing one of his premier enemies is Leader, someone who is as intelligent as Hulk is strong, and Hulk never lost to him...

That, and Wiki mentions Hulk defeated Black Bolt and Onslaught, two characters being in Superman's power grade.

[Tirian]

Actually the results of the Superman and Batman fights were never really up to the readers. DC would not even agree to the whole thing if those two did not win. Everything else was decided by the poll though.

My memory and Wikipedia disagree with you. And common sense -- how successful would the voting campaign have been if Batman and Superman weren't on the table? You think Marvel would have been cool letting Cap take a dive?

[WalkingTarget]

*sheepishly glances around*

*pulls out his copies of the DC vs. Marvel books*

First issue has the official ballot. The match-ups that people could vote for were:

Batman vs. Captain America
Hulk vs. Superman
Superboy vs. Spider-Man
Wolverine vs. Lobo
and Wonder Woman vs. Storm

That left the following outcomes up to the writers (and I suppose so that they could arrange for things to be tied when the Batman/Cap fight was going on):

Quicksilver vs. Flash
Jubilee vs. Robin
Sub-Mariner vs. Aquaman
Elektra vs. Catwoman
Thor vs. Captain Marvel
and Silver Surfer vs. Green Lantern

It's worth noting for the Supes/Hulk fight that this is the "Professor" incarnation of the Hulk (so less of the angrier = stronger thing going on) and that these fights weren't to the death.

[HandofShadows]

Sub-Mariner vs. Aquaman

No idea how Aquaman won that fight. Subby is way more powerful, much tougher and has a lot more combat experience.



Elektra vs. Catwoman


Should have been Black Cat vs Catwoman. :smallbiggrin:

[Tirian]

No idea how Aquaman won that fight. Subby is way more powerful, much tougher and has a lot more combat experience.

And Aquaman is the knockoff. I was around at the time, and even the DC forum on Usenet was unanimous that that was a horrible call. They should have let GL beat Silver Surfer to keep it even.

[Traab]

Small addendum:



According to TvTropes:

"The main gimmick behind the Hulk is that he is super strong, and his strength and durability increase the angrier he gets, often to ridiculous levels (somehow handling the core of a black hole, holding apart spheres of matter and anti-matter, holding together a collapsing planet, punching through barriers of spatial or temporal dimensions, occasionally overpowering cosmic entities, etc."

Meaning, Hulk can punch concepts such as time and space so hard they do what he wants them to. Don't ask me how it works, but it sure beats feats of "pure" strength.

According to Wikipedia:



Damage resistance.



Speed - note Sentry is capable of lightspeed-level travel.



Intelligence. Yes, Hulk is in most cases dumber than Banner, but seeing one of his premier enemies is Leader, someone who is as intelligent as Hulk is strong, and Hulk never lost to him...

That, and Wiki mentions Hulk defeated Black Bolt and Onslaught, two characters being in Superman's power grade.

Just a note on superman and HIS strength.


Superhuman Strength: Strength much greater than that of a normal Human and even most Metahumans, making him "more powerful than a locomotive," is one of Superman's signature powers. While not infinite, depictions of the upper limit of how much weight he can lift have ranged from being able to do the work of several laborers in half the time, lift objects hundreds of times his own weight including any sized vehicle over his head, bend and/or break steel with his bare hands, snapping chain links, lifting mountains, and all the way up to in the Silver Age and Modern Age moving entire planets. After being saturated with yellow solar energy in All-Star Superman, his strength was tested as exceeding the force of 200 quintillion tons (or 2x1020 tons, in scientific notation, i.e., two hundred billion billion tons).[volume & issue needed] Explanations include being adapted to the heavier gravity of Krypton, and his muscles using the power of the solar energy which fuels all his abilities. Superman's endurance has also been shown as limitless (whilst he remains in yellow sunlight).

He can move planets at his peak. PLANETS. As far as intelligence goes, once again it varies by continuities, but superman is basically ranging up to super genius levels and could likely make banner turn green from envy instead of rage. But just like the strength scale, it varies from version to version, same as with the hulk.


I do have one question though. Everyone makes a big deal about how the hulk gets stronger as he gets madder. Does that also affect his ability to take damage? In other words, if superman kicks him in the groin hard enough to launch him through three buildings, obviously making the hulk very very angry, then kicks him in the crotch a second time just as hard, will he not go flying as far this time? Or does he just hit harder while damage taken remains the same?

[Devonix]

And Aquaman is the knockoff. I was around at the time, and even the DC forum on Usenet was unanimous that that was a horrible call. They should have let GL beat Silver Surfer to keep it even.

More powerfull... Ehh I'll give Namor the edge in a push but not by much But Aquaman is deffinetly a better fighter. There is one thing however that made no sense in that fight

Aquaman and Namor face off. Bam Aquaman mentally commands Namor to curl up into a ball and then proceeds to walk over and kick the crap outta him. Winner Aquaman.

[Devonix]

Just a note on superman and HIS strength.



He can move planets at his peak. PLANETS. As far as intelligence goes, once again it varies by continuities, but superman is basically ranging up to super genius levels and could likely make banner turn green from envy instead of rage. But just like the strength scale, it varies from version to version, same as with the hulk.


I do have one question though. Everyone makes a big deal about how the hulk gets stronger as he gets madder. Does that also affect his ability to take damage? In other words, if superman kicks him in the groin hard enough to launch him through three buildings, obviously making the hulk very very angry, then kicks him in the crotch a second time just as hard, will he not go flying as far this time? Or does he just hit harder while damage taken remains the same?

Hulk starts out with slightly better than wolverine healing factor but does take damage, can be cut and can be hurt. His durability doesn't exactly scale with his strength but does get a bit better. But even at his strongest his skin's still capable of being shot up.

[Tirian]

More powerfull... Ehh I'll give Namor the edge in a push but not by much But Aquaman is deffinetly a better fighter. There is one thing however that made no sense in that fight

Aquaman and Namor face off. Bam Aquaman mentally commands Namor to curl up into a ball and then proceeds to walk over and kick the crap outta him. Winner Aquaman.

First off, I think his telepathy has always been suggestions rather than compulsions. He could certainly never bend the will of other Atlanteans. Second, I'm pretty sure during that era that he didn't even have that -- Peter David worked hard to make him as unrecognizable from the Superfriends character as possible.

[Traab]

Hulk starts out with slightly better than wolverine healing factor but does take damage, can be cut and can be hurt. His durability doesn't exactly scale with his strength but does get a bit better. But even at his strongest his skin's still capable of being shot up.

Hmm, I wonder if superman could pull the lobotomy trick he did to doomsday on the hulk? Or would it just heal itself? Meh, probably would heal the damage. But then, if it took long enough to heal, it might basically shut down the hulks rage and make him power down a bit as well.

[Devonix]

First off, I think his telepathy has always been suggestions rather than compulsions. He could certainly never bend the will of other Atlanteans. Second, I'm pretty sure during that era that he didn't even have that -- Peter David worked hard to make him as unrecognizable from the Superfriends character as possible.

Nope it's Compulsive he can and has done such things as mindrape people when sufficiently angered. Its just that he's the Honorable Warrior type and only does that stuff when sufficiently pissed off.

DC vs Marvel takes place Years after Aquaman started focusing on more telepathic fights, at this point he's allready won telepathic fights against White martians, and mindraped Doctor Polaris.

[Devonix]

Hmm, I wonder if superman could pull the lobotomy trick he did to doomsday on the hulk? Or would it just heal itself? Meh, probably would heal the damage. But then, if it took long enough to heal, it might basically shut down the hulks rage and make him power down a bit as well.

All doing something like that would accomplish is unleashing another version of the hulk. Its why Telepaths vs the Hulk usually end up bad. You try and shut him down and all you do is end up releasing a crazier version.

[Devonix]

Hmm, I wonder if superman could pull the lobotomy trick he did to doomsday on the hulk? Or would it just heal itself? Meh, probably would heal the damage. But then, if it took long enough to heal, it might basically shut down the hulks rage and make him power down a bit as well.

All doing something like that would accomplish is unleashing another version of the hulk. Its why Telepaths vs the Hulk usually end up bad. You try and shut him down and all you do is end up releasing a crazier version.

[Devonix]

Hmm, I wonder if superman could pull the lobotomy trick he did to doomsday on the hulk? Or would it just heal itself? Meh, probably would heal the damage. But then, if it took long enough to heal, it might basically shut down the hulks rage and make him power down a bit as well.

All doing something like that would accomplish is unleashing another version of the hulk. Its why Telepaths vs the Hulk usually end up bad. You try and shut him down and all you do is end up releasing a crazier version.

[Bhu]

Hulk starts out with slightly better than wolverine healing factor but does take damage, can be cut and can be hurt. His durability doesn't exactly scale with his strength but does get a bit better. But even at his strongest his skin's still capable of being shot up.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-hulk-vs-starfire-donna-troy/597902/?page=4

scroll down to #398

a ways below that is hulk taking a hit equivalent to 0ne hundred trillion tons of force

[Devonix]

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-hulk-vs-starfire-donna-troy/597902/?page=4

scroll down to #398

a ways below that is hulk taking a hit equivalent to 0ne hundred trillion tons of force

I fully agree with that

:smallconfused:
I thought it was evident from the whole Starts off as better healing than wolverine and scales up from there?


Oh now I see the post that you ment. Yeah Hulk can take a hit, no one's saying he can't. but thats nothing that some other heavy hitters at Marvel or DC can't do even better. Also shouldn't that have made him achieve escape velocity?

[Traab]

Ok, so if the hulk isnt exactly high end bullet proof invulnerable, why cant superman go for the laser eye decapitation? He thinks its doomsday after all, he knows he cant hold back against him. It wouldnt likely kill doomsday, but it might hurt him, so he would have no reason to not give it a try at least. The hulks head might feel rage until the blood finishes pumping out of it, but I dont think the rest of his body will feel too good. :p


http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-hulk-vs-starfire-donna-troy/597902/?page=4

scroll down to #398

a ways below that is hulk taking a hit equivalent to 0ne hundred trillion tons of force

True, but he is also flying several states away before crash landing, giving his healing factor time to work. I mean, I cant figure the math on that sort of thing, but id imagine the initial impact would launch hulk like a comet trailing fire through the sky as he ignites from friction, then drastically slowing down as he goes due to wind resistance, but if it took him less than 10 minutes to crash land ill be surprised. But yeah, that punch probably burst every organ in his chest and shattered all the bones as well, but once he slowed down from buring through the sky levels of speed, he would have plenty of time for that sick healing factor to repair all that. After that its just him hitting the ground he has to deal with, and thats no big thing for him.

[Dr.Epic]

Wasn't this already done in a crossover? And didn't Superman win?

[Devonix]

Wasn't this already done in a crossover? And didn't Superman win?

Three crossovers, three fights

1st fight Doctor Doom creates a device to enrage the Hulk and send him after Superman, Supes Defends himself and destroys the Device but wasn't really trying to put the Hulk down while Hulk was trying to kill Superman


2nd fight was the Marve vs DC one rules of the fight were the first one unable to even temporarrily continue the fight loses. Wen't back and forth for a while before Supes said he couldn't hold back anymore and Gave Hulk a Haymaker punch knnocking him through a mountain and trapping him there

3rd fight was more in Hulk's favor but superman ended up working with him to stop Luthor

[HandofShadows]

More powerfull... Ehh I'll give Namor the edge in a push but not by much But Aquaman is deffinetly a better fighter. There is one thing however that made no sense in that fight

Namor is a World War II vet and has been been in fights with everything from the Hulk to Dire Wraiths. I very much doubt that Aquaman can get more experienced than that.

[Fjolnir]

Isn't there a comic where bruce banner and the hulk are essentially the last human on earth? If I recall correctly, bruce gets mauled by vicious mutant creatures on a regular basis, which causes him to turn into the hulk, which heals all of the SEVERELY damaged bits through the transformation process leaving him whole and hale when he becomes bruce again...

[Zale]

Also who said that Supes is weaker at night? this isn't Avatar and he isn't a Waterbender.
.

Firebenders get weaker at night. Waterbenders get stronger.

Watch teh series n00b! :smalltongue:


I'm rooting for the Hulk. Not because I think he'll win, but because I prefer him to the Man of Steel.

[HandofShadows]

Isn't there a comic where bruce banner and the hulk are essentially the last human on earth? If I recall correctly, bruce gets mauled by vicious mutant creatures on a regular basis, which causes him to turn into the hulk, which heals all of the SEVERELY damaged bits through the transformation process leaving him whole and hale when he becomes bruce again...

Yeah, I have that one. It's called Hulk: The End. The human race is gone (The major races of the Milky Way held a party to celebrate) and only the Hulk/Banner is left. And on a daily basis he gets attacked by huge mutant cockroaches.

[WitchSlayer]

Shouldn't we codify WHICH versions so we don't pull out "Oh he can pull planets" or "oh he lifted up a mountain range"

I mean we could pull out the strongest they were at while still not being gods (That is to say no Superman 1,000,000 Prime no Captain Universe powered Hulk)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Shouldn't we codify WHICH versions so we don't pull out "Oh he can pull planets" or "oh he lifted up a mountain range"

I mean we could pull out the strongest they were at while still not being gods (That is to say no Superman 1,000,000 Prime no Captain Universe powered Hulk)

Well as for versions while Supes/DC are reasonably straightforward... Marvel uses its shifting timeline so that while details may vary it all goes back to FF #1 in the 60s meaning that for varying values of fan wank its all one version.

[Traab]

Well as for versions while Supes/DC are reasonably straightforward... Marvel uses its shifting timeline so that while details may vary it all goes back to FF #1 in the 60s meaning that for varying values of fan wank its all one version.

Except its really not. There have been so many variances on the hulk and his abilities, even outside of the crazy crossovers and ludicrous reality punching stuff, that it really should be nailed down a bit better. I mean, even at its most basic, the hulk tended to come in three flavors. green and stupid, grey and smart, and green and smart. Pick one, and we can work from there to further nail it down, as within each of those there has been various versions with some wildly different power levels. Otherwise we just wind back up with, "Superman punches so hard he reverses time back to when bruce was first exposed to gamma rays and his head explodes before he gets transformed" or other stupidities.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Except its really not. There have been so many variances on the hulk and his abilities, even outside of the crazy crossovers and ludicrous reality punching stuff, that it really should be nailed down a bit better. I mean, even at its most basic, the hulk tended to come in three flavors. green and stupid, grey and smart, and green and smart. Pick one, and we can work from there to further nail it down, as within each of those there has been various versions with some wildly different power levels. Otherwise we just wind back up with, "Superman punches so hard he reverses time back to when bruce was first exposed to gamma rays and his head explodes before he gets transformed" or other stupidities.

Oh those aren't hard. Crossovers are like What Ifs, Elseworlds, or other such limited features and rarely considered. Nobody's brought up for example the version Hulk that was actually Peter Parker and took shots from Galactus.

For the other Hulks they don't really matter because "dumb and green" is Hulk, and Hulk is strongest one there is. And that always been a distinct but continuous personality/person who's done all the greatest feats. Other variations are kinda like asking if people meant Superman Red/Blue. Noting dumb and green Hulk gets smarterish around Planet Hulk and just generally from writing, this is entirely unlike "Professor" Hulk who's Banner in a Hulk body

[Bhu]

Shouldn't we codify WHICH versions so we don't pull out "Oh he can pull planets" or "oh he lifted up a mountain range"

I mean we could pull out the strongest they were at while still not being gods (That is to say no Superman 1,000,000 Prime no Captain Universe powered Hulk)

If you want to go with original versions, hulk is grey (it quickly changes to green due to coloring problems) and stupid and only comes out at night. The emotional transformations dont come until a year and a half later. At this point he's a standard iconic brick who can lift tanks, punch through steel doors, and shrug off the military..

As for superman: "As originally conceived and presented in his early stories, Superman's powers were relatively limited, consisting of superhuman strength that allowed him to lift a car over his head, run at amazing speeds and leap one-eighth of a mile, as well as an incredibly dense body structure that could be pierced by nothing less than an exploding artillery shell.[99] Siegel and Shuster compared his strength and leaping abilities to an ant and a grasshopper.[100] When making the cartoons, the Fleischer Brothers found it difficult to keep animating him leaping and requested to DC to change his ability to flying."

At this point the Hulk is much stronger than Superman, but dumber, and disappears when the sun comes up. If the fight happens during the day Supe wins cause he's fighting Banner. If it happens at night, he has problems because he isn't really strong enough to hurt Hulk, but is quick enough to remain out of range till day. The question is with his much more limited powers can he keep it going for however many hours are necessary for the sun to appear again without being tagged and manage to keep Hulks interest from wandering away if he's not actively fighting. If the Hulk has advanced to changing whenever he gets angry...now there's a problem. Supes best bet is talking him down.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh, the Hulk.
If anyone ever exemplified the truth of wise Kermit's words, it was the Hulk.
"It ain't easy being green", indeed.

[Skeller]

Sorry about that. Now that I recall it I believe it was they would not let those 2 lose. Not that they had to win. I can not find any source online though so I May be misremembering a fact I had read a while ago. Although I am pretty sure I read it. Just not sure where.

[Devonix]

Firebenders get weaker at night. Waterbenders get stronger.

Watch teh series n00b! :smalltongue:


I'm rooting for the Hulk. Not because I think he'll win, but because I prefer him to the Man of Steel.

Well what if Piccolo had destroyed the moon hmmn Then the Waterbenders would be weaker. :smalltongue:

[Diskhotep]

No idea how Aquaman won that fight. Subby is way more powerful, much tougher and has a lot more combat experience.

If memory serves, Namor fought honorably. While it isn't really possible to cheat in an all-out duel, Aquaman definitely was willing to compromise his principles to do what he had to.

[WalkingTarget]

If memory serves, Namor fought honorably. While it isn't really possible to cheat in an all-out duel, Aquaman definitely was willing to compromise his principles to do what he had to.

Aquaman had an orca breach out of the water to land on top of Namor. Immobilization of your opponent being enough to win the fight.

Now ask yourself why two princes of Atlantis whose power sets tend to operate best underwater were fighting on land.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Aquaman had an orca breach out of the water to land on top of Namor. Immobilization of your opponent being enough to win the fight.

Now ask yourself why two princes of Atlantis whose power sets tend to operate best underwater were fighting on land.

Or why a guy who throws down with Hulk can't lift an overly large dolphin....

.... still nothing in those match ups was more ridiculous then Lobo and Logan. Even the writers couldn't come up with anything remotely good. Hence why like all sane comic readers I maintain that once under that bar Wolverine pulled out an extremely large wad of cash, some 200 year old Scotch and said: "Have fun bub!"

[Devonix]

Or why a guy who throws down with Hulk can't lift an overly large dolphin....

.... still nothing in those match ups was more ridiculous then Lobo and Logan. Even the writers couldn't come up with anything remotely good. Hence why like all sane comic readers I maintain that once under that bar Wolverine pulled out an extremely large wad of cash, some 200 year old Scotch and said: "Have fun bub!"

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-11.jpg
Bam fight over against Namor. Namor's Atlantian making him even MORE vulnerable to a mental attack from Aquaman

[HandofShadows]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/tgtmarvel/jla-004-11.jpg
Bam fight over against Namor. Namor's Atlantian making him even MORE vulnerable to a mental attack from Aquaman

Namor being a hybrid is only half Atlantian. That might make him more resistant, not less. Also if Aquaman big power is mental then he should have been matched up against Proff Xavier.

[Devonix]

Namor being a hybrid is only half Atlantian. That might make him more resistant, not less. Also if Aquaman big power is mental then he should have been matched up against Proff Xavier.

The mental attack's being done against a pure human. Being half Atlantian would make Namor even more vulnerable than that guy.

[Prime32]

.... still nothing in those match ups was more ridiculous then Lobo and Logan. Even the writers couldn't come up with anything remotely good. Hence why like all sane comic readers I maintain that once under that bar Wolverine pulled out an extremely large wad of cash, some 200 year old Scotch and said: "Have fun bub!"I thought that was canon, except Professor X did it?

[Devonix]

I thought that was canon, except Professor X did it?

If that fight had been done nowadays I say it would have been Lobo vs Deadpool

[HandofShadows]

The mental attack's being done against a pure human. Being half Atlantian would make Namor even more vulnerable than that guy.

Not really. Hybrids can have attributes that not show up in either of the parents. Namor's heel wings are an example of this. In other words Aquamans mental power may effect a part of Namors brain and work poorly or even "miss".

[Soras Teva Gee]

The mental attack's being done against a pure human. Being half Atlantian would make Namor even more vulnerable than that guy.

I can't speak to all of Aquaman's previous uses but somewhere in JLA/Avengers which aside from being the most awesome comic ever it was established that Namor is highly resistant to Aquaman's telepathic abilities. Because of his mixed heritage. And since as I said JLA/Avengers is the most awesome comic ever its as close as there will ever be to canon.


I thought that was canon, except Professor X did it?

I don't think Logan exactly had the money to pull that off himself. Main Man don't come cheap after all. I figure Charles put up the cash and handled the negotiation, Logan handled the delivery and added a bottle of Scotch to the deal.


If that fight had been done nowadays I say it would have been Lobo vs Deadpool

Yeah... because Wolverine would busy be fighting Superman.

Don't look at me like that you know I'm right.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah... because Wolverine would busy be fighting Superman.

Don't look at me like that you know I'm right.

ROFL! Good job!

[Raimun]

I usually prefer Marvel over DC and I think Superman is a horrible, horrible character* but I think he would win and Hulk would lose. It would be a close match. Hulk would win only if got an extreme rage on... and I doubt Superman could cause it.

*Though Hulk is only marginally better.

[Prime32]

And since as I said JLA/Avengers is the most awesome comic ever its as close as there will ever be to canon. Heck, it's implied that Scarlet Witch tapping into the DC Universe's brand of chaos magic is what led to House of M.

[maglag]

Altough a little late I would like to point something out.


4. "Superspeed means that Superman will be able to beat up Hulk a bajillion times before Hulk even realizes the combat has begun."
Superspeed isn't really used that way by Superman. Counterintuitive as it may seem, it appears that if Superman wants to hit hard, he needs to punch slower. Superspeed can be used to dodge or manoeuvre very effectively, or beat up a lot of weak opponents quickly, but against strong opponents Supes tends to stick to slower attacks.


That's only because supes likes to avoid collateral damage as much as possible. He can punch with superstrenght+superspeed, but that means there's a good chance a lot of more stuff around will be pulverized, in particular if he fails to perfectly aim his blow. Also, supes usually prefers to capture his oponents alive.

For example, when fighting doomsday for the second time (after ressurecting), supes decides to circle the whole planet in a fraction of second to punch doomsday on the back (the extra inertia didn't hurt also).

The fast+strong does manage to severly hurt Doomsday, more than any of supes previous blows. And also hits the nearby power plant with such power that the continent they're fighting on gets glassed.

Granted, on the other hand, the hulk has also been revealed to be holding back most of the time, since despite all his city-leveling rampages, he has a suprisingly low body count.

[Omergideon]

I instinctively favour Superman as he is my favourite Comic Book Character of all time (though I know why some people dislike him) for many reasons unrelated to his power set. But outside of this admitted bias I do think Superman should beat the Hulk. Though this is not going to be an easy fight at all.

Really the Hulk starts at a Sub Superman level of strength and toughness, though he could soon get above that as his rage goes up due to not winning. So in terms of raw lifting power and "hard to hurt" ness I could go either way. They both have completely incomprehensible feats of strength that ignore physics and laugh at the result so meaningful comparison is not too sensible. But they both are in the "juggle jets with ease" category. So without outside evidence I will suppose that Hulk is likely to be a bit stronger and tougher than Superman.

Lets also generously suppose the Hulk is as skillful as Superman in a fight. WWH version may well be, but supes is no slouch as seen by the New Krypton arc. His experience and skill puts him above the other kryptonians in combat very often.

Even with that Superman has an insurmountable speed advantage, as well as flight and heat vision. One of my favourite Superman comics for pure action is Hunter/Prey, though the next Doomsday story is also pretty good. In these superman is able to use Heat Vision to hurt Doomsday when his punches were not working. It is also effective against Mongul on occasion when pure strength was not. So Superman has a good value long range attack. He is also able to move EASILY at speeds comparable to Quicksilver who moves too fast for the Hulk to cope with. In fact he can move much faster, without pushing things, and maintain good control and balance and technique. I would reference comics with quoted speeds of Mach10+, or circling planets within minutes. He can move too fast for the Hulk to even see, could hit the hulk a hundred times a second and more.

He also uses flight well, again as evidenced by many aerial attacks and techniques in the Death of Superman and Hunter Prey tales. The use of inertia to disable Doomsday in flight (by hitting him in the back, hitting high altitude a fraction of a second later and letting him go) is repeated and valuable in the fight.

In short Supes will need to be smart. He will need to be fast. And he will need to use all his tools and move like he should at speed. And it will take time and he may take a few tough hits. But Superman should well win.

[Soras Teva Gee]

ROFL! Good job!

Thanks


Heck, it's implied that Scarlet Witch tapping into the DC Universe's brand of chaos magic is what led to House of M.

For awhile it was totally in continuity on the DC end, they had a direct follow-up to the conclusion that explicitly referenced the event. Long deprecated now though.

Reminds me so far my prediction of lacking a single in-continuity Supes example is holding up pretty well.

[Irbis]

Shouldn't we codify WHICH versions so we don't pull out "Oh he can pull planets" or "oh he lifted up a mountain range"

Let's make this fight classy and polite, then:

In corner A:

Suit Hulk!

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2011/12/medium_a520107271f56ad8ffea4266aa744f44.jpg

In corner B:

Superman wearing undies under:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0Xu_e6RWZtg/Tp7v6RWQ9kI/AAAAAAAAAa0/d09Kyl2bGCQ/s1600/JL-Superman_1.jpg

What? You mean powers and such? Details. And, as we know, real gentlemen, like above, don't talk about details :smalltongue:

[Bhu]

Granted, on the other hand, the hulk has also been revealed to be holding back most of the time, since despite all his city-leveling rampages, he has a suprisingly low body count.


You know that is the one aspect of the Hulk series I have the most problem with. It's almost as bad as supermans disguise being a pair of glasses.

[Soras Teva Gee]

In corner B:

Superman wearing undies under:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0Xu_e6RWZtg/Tp7v6RWQ9kI/AAAAAAAAAa0/d09Kyl2bGCQ/s1600/JL-Superman_1.jpg

What? You mean powers and such? Details. And, as we know, real gentlemen, like above, don't talk about details :smalltongue:

Well at the bottom of page 3 but finally an in-continuity reference.


You know that is the one aspect of the Hulk series I have the most problem with. It's almost as bad as supermans disguise being a pair of glasses.

Actually substanially worse (check the picture) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClarkKenting)

Given that Clark Kent is not a public figure (as a face no matter how known his reporting is) so frankly the pool of people that know both, much less well, is extremely small. In recent decades its basically been explained that the general public doesn't even think Superman has a civilian identity, after all no mask. Combine with good acting for the million subtle cues that don't show up in ink and it gets a lot better. Also its not unheard of for people to resemble one another. Really the only one I don't have a good reason for is Lois, which for awhile wasn't an issue.

Hulk mysteriously never causing a casualty by accident is just stupid by comparison along with many things that are privately ignored by comics. Hulk however is particularly bad in my judgement.

[Prime32]

Hulk mysteriously never causing a casualty by accident is just stupid by comparison along with many things that are privately ignored by comics. Hulk however is particularly bad in my judgement.That was a fairly recent retcon though. Heck, didn't She-Hulk once have to fight an organisation of people whose family members had been killed by the Hulk?

They try to justify it with Amadeus Cho claiming that the Hulk is some kind of maths prodigy, which is... weird.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That was a fairly recent retcon though. Heck, didn't She-Hulk once have to fight an organisation of people whose family members had been killed by the Hulk?

They try to justify it with Amadeus Cho claiming that the Hulk is some kind of maths prodigy, which is... weird.

Oh I think I know who dreamed this up, smells highly of editorial mandate does it not.

Clearly what was decided was it was magic, they didn't have to explain ****.

[Devonix]

That was a fairly recent retcon though. Heck, didn't She-Hulk once have to fight an organisation of people whose family members had been killed by the Hulk?

They try to justify it with Amadeus Cho claiming that the Hulk is some kind of maths prodigy, which is... weird.

Actually that's backwards. the Hulk having killed in his rampages was a retcon when they were trying to make him more a dangerous force of nature. It made no sense considering his past.

So they retconned away the retcon with Amadeus' explination.

[Devonix]

Well at the bottom of page 3 but finally an in-continuity reference.



Actually substanially worse (check the picture) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClarkKenting)

Given that Clark Kent is not a public figure (as a face no matter how known his reporting is) so frankly the pool of people that know both, much less well, is extremely small. In recent decades its basically been explained that the general public doesn't even think Superman has a civilian identity, after all no mask. Combine with good acting for the million subtle cues that don't show up in ink and it gets a lot better. Also its not unheard of for people to resemble one another. Really the only one I don't have a good reason for is Lois, which for awhile wasn't an issue.

Hulk mysteriously never causing a casualty by accident is just stupid by comparison along with many things that are privately ignored by comics. Hulk however is particularly bad in my judgement.

Yeah just how many of us know someone that looks just like a celebrity. We know its not them because well we just know.

And if someone ask's Superman what his real name is... Well its Kal El everyone knows that silly. Where does he live? That fortress place
What does he do when he's not Superman? Are you crazy he's always Superman.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Actually that's backwards. the Hulk having killed in his rampages was a retcon when they were trying to make him more a dangerous force of nature. It made no sense considering his past.

So they retconned away the retcon with Amadeus' explination.

Whichever order it was its not something that can be brought up in comics and actually dealt with. The idea that big super-fights don't kill people is stupid. If comics can't face up to this then they shouldn't acknowledge it. If they feel they must then the only answers is "yes it happens" then maturely note "however far less then one might think, and far less then when superheroes aren't on scene"

Plus at least some heroes (like Supes) have a good case for fighting things that really couldn't be handled any other way. How else are you going to stop that mindless energy beast, with cops?


Yeah just how many of us know someone that looks just like a celebrity. We know its not them because well we just know.

And if someone ask's Superman what his real name is... Well its Kal El everyone knows that silly. Where does he live? That fortress place
What does he do when he's not Superman? Are you crazy he's always Superman.

I know I've had this experience. Apparently plenty of celebrities can Clark Kent pretty well, since we are used to seeing movie stars and the like in make up and on camera.

So once DC stopped being idiots and drawing attention to it with "let find out Superman's secret identity" it makes a fair bit of sense. Well and not having Clark Kent be a TV anchor. Still even super-hypnosis while stupid was at least in the age when flying around the Earth to turn back time was beloved cinema.

[Irbis]

Given that Clark Kent is not a public figure (as a face no matter how known his reporting is) so frankly the pool of people that know both, much less well, is extremely small. In recent decades its basically been explained that the general public doesn't even think Superman has a civilian identity, after all no mask. Combine with good acting for the million subtle cues that don't show up in ink and it gets a lot better. Also its not unheard of for people to resemble one another. Really the only one I don't have a good reason for is Lois, which for awhile wasn't an issue.

Though, most people who know Clark Kent well are journalists, who should be rather good at finding out secrets and noticing details...

Hmm, now that I think about it, my favorite version of Superman (and explanation of the above at the same time) was Colin Clark, especially his (judicial) fight with Bat-Man was hilarious :smallbiggrin:

[Fjolnir]

@irbis that reminds me of the episode of SNL where Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson was the guest host, they do a skit where he's Clark Kent/Superman and REALLY bad at hiding that he's one of earth's mightiest heroes (We're talking cape bulging out of the neck of his ill fitting suit and stuff) and the only reason why the rest of the Daily Planet staff don't call him out on it is that he's way too much fun to screw with... (examples include Perry White asking Clark about certain things then going "how goes [article name] Superman" and him answering without thinking...)

[Ravens_cry]

Dwayne Johnson as Superman?
That might almost work. He's certainly got the build.

[HandofShadows]

Dwayne Johnson as Superman?
That might almost work. He's certainly got the build.

Actually there was a charater called Icon by Milestone Press (later folded into DC Comics) who was a black Superman.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually there was a charater called Icon by Milestone Press (later folded into DC Comics) who was a black Superman.
Does The Rock count as 'black'? He looks more First Nation to me.
And don't forget Steel. He may not have super powers, but he is a superman.

[Bitter]

Basically Superman would win and anyone who thinks so is completely wrong in every possible way.

- Superman's standard abilities (lifting 100,000 ton aircraft carriers, etc) is way above Hulk's standard level of ability (Getting in the fight with the Thing, who can lift 80 tons, and winning but after a good brawl).
-Superman's above the norm feats are far more impressive than Hulk's (Lifting infinity tons vs lifting a hundred billion tons)
- Flight, Heat vision, etc
- His narrative supremacy, as introduced in Superman Beyond, that he's basically the ultimate story and so will always triumph.

[The Glyphstone]

Does The Rock count as 'black'? He looks more First Nation to me.
And don't forget Steel. He may not have super powers, but he is a superman.

He always looked vaguely Pacific Islanderish to me - considering one of his parents is from American Samoa, that makes sense. Though apparently his other parent is African Nova Scotian.

[Anteros]

Basically Superman would win and anyone who thinks so is completely wrong in every possible way.

- Superman's standard abilities (lifting 100,000 ton aircraft carriers, etc) is way above Hulk's standard level of ability (Getting in the fight with the Thing, who can lift 80 tons, and winning but after a good brawl).
-Superman's above the norm feats are far more impressive than Hulk's (Lifting infinity tons vs lifting a hundred billion tons)
- Flight, Heat vision, etc
- His narrative supremacy, as introduced in Superman Beyond, that he's basically the ultimate story and so will always triumph.

:smallsigh: We really need an eye roll smiley.

[Bitter]

:smallsigh: We really need an eye roll smiley.

If you don't recognise how 4th dimensional self-assembling hyperstories interact in the ultramenstrum of reality then that is your problem.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If you don't recognise how 4th dimensional self-assembling hyperstories interact in the ultramenstrum of reality then that is your problem.

Hey hey hey you are requiring people to actually read good Superman comics there and we can't have that.

[Traab]

Hey hey hey you are requiring people to actually read good Superman comics there and we can't have that.

Because there arent any? BURN! :smallbiggrin:

[Bitter]

The Eisner Award winning All-Star Superman might be a good place to start learning how your have terrible opinions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Star_Superman

[Anteros]

Yeah, because a story where they literally tell you "this protagonist will always win because he is the ultimate story" just screams dramatic and well written.

[Devonix]

Yeah, because a story where they literally tell you "this protagonist will always win because he is the ultimate story" just screams dramatic and well written.

Except that isn't what the story says. Superman beyond is about how the DC Universe is a story, a living story that grows and changes as it's percived by people, new writers and new readers.

Superman is a part of that story as one of its first tales. His is a love story one of the greats, Self sacrificing love, of parents giving their love so that their child survives, Of strangers loving a child not their own and teaching him, and of how that love can create a champion who knows how to care for everybody.

Superman's the champion of the story for that reason, and the whole Superman wins, is more because that is his purpose. He's the light, the beacon we're supposed to follow. And if Superman losing is something that will help the story then that is when he'll lose, but he'll still fight because that's not just who he is its What he is.

That's Superman Beyond.

[WitchSlayer]

Oh Grant Morrison, I love you.

Also Frank Quitely does a great Clark Kent/Superman transformation.

Anywho the real question is is that could Clark Kent get the gamma bomb testing banned through journalism with Bruce Banner trying to counter with science?

[Ravens_cry]

Oh Grant Morrison, I love you.

Also Frank Quitely does a great Clark Kent/Superman transformation.

Anywho the real question is is that could Clark Kent get the gamma bomb testing banned through journalism with Bruce Banner trying to counter with science?
I'd think Bruce Banner would be against it as much as Clark Kent.

[Frozen_Feet]

Re: Clark Kenting

Do not underestimate power of glasses! :smalltongue: I wear mine practically always, and because of this, a lot of people I've known for years are very unfamiliar with my looks without them. I've been mistaken for other people by several long-time friends while wearing contacts, only recognized by my voice. Just a few weeks ago, my scouts couldn't recognize me just because I'd switched my ordinary glasses for shades. Even my brother took a while to realize it was me.

On another note, it's been said I look like "Harry Potter" (with glasses) or Rob Halford (without glasses, or with shades). Obviously doesn't make me either. :smalltongue: I also know a lot of people who look very much like me, plus people who've been mistaken for me just because they had similar glasses, even though without them the difference is apparent.

[Bitter]

Yeah, because a story where they literally tell you "this protagonist will always win because he is the ultimate story" just screams dramatic and well written.

It's an exploration of the modern mythology of superheroes. Are you going to read a justice league comic tomorrow and welp Superman has been killed by some random supervillain and will never be used again? Or he was mind controlled and literally started beating random people to death? No, because for either of those to happen to superman is unthinkable based on the nature of his character (Plus DC want to make money :D)

It is an exploration of the character at the heart of on ongoing 70 year narrative that is up there as perhaps the most well known fictional character on the planet.