Eberron: paying taxes?

[Alienist]

I've seen several references in the Eberron sourcebooks to paying taxes, but not any rates or tables for the actual amounts.

Am I overlooking something obvious?

Are they deeply hidden?

Or are they just non-existent?

[Zaq]

I've seen several references in the Eberron sourcebooks to paying taxes, but not any rates or tables for the actual amounts.

Am I overlooking something obvious?

Are they deeply hidden?

Or are they just non-existent?

At a guess, they're not meant to be mechanical in a hard-and-fast way. If you think it's appropriate for PCs to have to pay taxes, the books might have some suggestions as to who might be taxing them and why, but there probably aren't specific numbers for it.

This is all just conjecture on my part. I haven't read the parts in question, at least not in a long time.

[Connington]

Adventurers are, famously, heavily armed murderous hobos who show no respect whatsoever to anyone who isn't in their clique of 4-6 similarly minded individuals. They poke around in terrifically dangerous caves and crypts on the off chance that one of their might contain treasure, slaughtering any creature that objects to this behavior.

Once successful, they break open chests full of archaeological treasures like piggy banks, and refuse to spend their ill-gotten gains on housing, food, or anything but weapons, armor, and magical items. They treat being reminded to eat and bathe as nuisance bookkeeping, have a statistically unlikely probability of being orphans, and regard entire species that consider them to be mortal foes as "cannon fodder".

I would assume that they owe back taxes.

[shadow_archmagi]

I would assume that they owe back taxes.

Alternatively, assume that the Lost Wealth of T'charr doesn't actually count as a salary and assume they're tax exempt.

[Madara]

It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"

[Namfuak]

@Connington Thank you for that laugh, and it brings up a good point. We can't think of taxation in the traditional sense in terms of applying to adventurers. In a game I am in now, the Duke of the area actually formed an office, the Office of Adventuring and Dungeoneering (it's basically the DMV), which specifically deals with both licensing adventurers, and handling adventuring contracts. All adventurers have to be licensed (which includes a fee), and in order to complete the licensing process they have to join an adventuring guild. Each guild has to have a guild hall and lodging for members (which it pays property taxes on), as well as paying a fee to remain an official adventuring guild. In turn, the guilds make their money by taking some of the spoils of their members, when their members complete contracts given by the guild. If a person wants to hire adventurers, they go to the OAD, which in turn gives the contract to a guild (it seems like it is only one guild that gets each contract, so presumably they bid over them), and then the guild members can find the contracts in the guild halls. Adventurers accept the contract, go do their thing, keep the loot and also get a fee for the contract (which the OAD actually pays half of, since the Duke wants people to be willing to hire adventurers if they are in trouble).

My point is, trying to tax adventurers directly would probably be difficult to implement and probably pointless, much like it would have been pointless for feudal lords to try to take taxes from each individual person, rather than simply taking a share of the harvest.

[deuxhero]

(it's basically the DMV)

Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on an Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.

[TypoNinja]

Well historically taxes were 10%. Tithe being literally 'a tenth part'.

However this breaks down real fast in D&D.

When we are talking 10% of your annual wheat harvest, it works well. But PC wealth quickly skyrockets to stratospheric levels compared to the rest of mundane society. Even a tenth part of PC wealth would quickly be a silly value compare to the operating budget of any mundane pursuits.

I'm assuming here you register adventuring Parties rather than individuals since solo adventure's have a name where I'm from. "Lunch"

A 15th level part's taxes at 10% would be 20k, which is enough cash to break the economy of a small city.

It's also enough money to raise and feed a small army 300-400 men depending on the quality of gear. If I were your PC's I'd be tempted to spend my tax money on starting my own kingdom and daring Duke Tightfisted to come and try to collect some taxes off me.

the flip side of that is of coruse, a realistically low value is going to quickly be low enough that PC's tend not to care at all. When dues are a GP a year (Quite high on a mundane budget) PC's tend to buy memberships by the decade.

[Marnath]

It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"

Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."

[Namfuak]

Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on the that Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.

Although it's implied we wait in line for a long time each time, we use the magic of "We go to the OAD and collect our check. Does anything interesting happen?" To which the DM invariably replies "No." And then we get on with other stuff.

[Madara]

Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."

Those adventures happen to be Necropolitan :smallamused:

[Marnath]

Those adventures happen to be Necropolitan :smallamused:

Alright then, how about this?

Tax collector: I'm here to claim 10% of your wealth as per the tax laws our fair and just Lord......
Adventurer: Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.

[shadow_archmagi]

Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."

Also, very few adventurers will buy a cottage on market street. They're all going to have, like, floating cubes of ice suspended over the Chasm of Gar'Nicheg or something where it would require a small army (or one man with a long ladder) just to reach the front door.

That said, with most adventurers being Good, they'd happily contribute to the country by killing a dragon here or stopping the imminent destruction of the world there. They're probably on first name terms with the king, to be honest.

[Amphetryon]

Alright then, how about this?

Tax collector: I'm here to claim 10% of your wealth as per the tax laws our fair and just Lord......
Adventurer: Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.

Note that this doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms, as the Tax Collector is a retired epic-level Swiftblade. :smallwink:

[Marnath]

Note that this doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms, as the Tax Collector is a retired epic-level Swiftblade. :smallwink:

This is an Eberron thread. :smallconfused:

[Inferno]

This is an Eberron thread. :smallconfused:

Where the tax collector is likely backed by, or even a member of house Kundarak.

[Acanous]

who'se highest level NPC clocks in at 12th.

[Madara]

Good PCs will abuse the trap rules just to mess with the Tax collectors, causing an entire war between them and the country once the country realizes they have 50,000gp(Think of that in NPC terms...):smallamused:

Fighter:"Hey guys, another tax collector is walking up to the door again."
Cleric:"Don't worry we'll---"
Kobold Artificer "Wait for it..."

NPC "My eeeyes! What? I can't hear anything either? Help! Help!"

Blindness/Deafness trap ftw*

[Acanous]

that... would actually make for a very fun session if the party was Chaotic...

[Augmental]

If you're wondering who the tax collectors are, the Coin Lords are pretty much the top dogs in that area from what I've seen in DDO. Once, you get hired by a member of them to collect some guy's overdue taxes for him.

[Madara]

that... would actually make for a very fun session if the party was Chaotic...

Indeed. You could have a whole campaign based on escaping taxes :smallamused:

[Marnath]

If you're wondering who the tax collectors are, the Coin Lords are pretty much the top dogs in that area from what I've seen in DDO. Once, you get hired by a member of them to collect some guy's overdue taxes for him.

Stormreach is one city in the absolute middle of nowhere, as far as Eberron civilization is concerned.

[Hecuba]

Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."

Really? I wasn't aware that there were no Lawful adventurers in Eberron...

[Alleran]

Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
"There are two things in life that are certain: death and taxes."

[TypoNinja]

"There are two things in life that are certain: death and taxes."

And a high level wizards ability to break a planet :P

I'm the kinda guy who would pay my 20k taxes in copper.

Haul this away sucker!

At 40,000 lbs and a total volume of a couple thousand cubic feet, I could bury a small cottage in coinage. :D

[Socratov]

And a high level wizards ability to break a planet :P

I'm the kinda guy who would pay my 20k taxes in copper.

Haul this away sucker!

At 40,000 lbs and a total volume of a couple thousand cubic feet, I could bury a small cottage in coinage. :D

a few coppers per day keeps the tax collector at bay :smallamused:

[Acanous]

I'd pay in salt.
What? It's a trade good, feudal systems usually took tax in goods as well as coinage, so it's totally legal. Pay in salt, by the ton.

[Bouregard]

Indeed. You could have a whole campaign based on escaping taxes :smallamused:

Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

"Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
[party turns to leave]
"Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
[appraisecheck]
"Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
[Guards surround the party]
"Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.

[Ormur]

As much as I tend towards simulationism I wouldn't ever bother taxing the average adventuring party except maybe with tolls. Taxes in pre-modern states were mostly on land and trade, things most adventurers don't bother with. There's no personal income tax or a property tax that covers the stuff you carry on your person. If there's a tax on the trade of magic items one can assume that's covered by the 50% you loose from selling them.

Of course what constitutes a legitimate authority and reasonable taxation was probably much more vague back then. Some robber knight might exact a toll that amounted to theft on the people traveling on his road. Arbitrary taxation, or even just slightly more taxation, was also a pretty good recipe for revolt.

So if the adventurers are suddenly faced with a tax collector that demands 10% of their stuff even the lawful members might consider that unjust as a breach of accepted norms. Any DM that had his NPCs make that demand should also expect a battle.

If however your adventurers actually own land or property you might have to start thinking about what they should pay or whether they might be exempt as clergy or nobility and what other services they might then be obliged to render.

[Namfuak]

If however your adventurers actually own land or property you might have to start thinking about what they should pay or whether they might be exempt as clergy or nobility and what other services they might then be obliged to render.

Does this mean that a cleric of Gruumsh would be exempt from any retribution after performing blood sacrifices because he would claim benefit of the clergy and be tried in an ecclesiastical court of Gruumsh?

[Necroticplague]

I just add "tax evasion" to the long list of crimes that an adventurer regularly performs when going about their jobs. Nobody minds the murder, manslaughter, genocide, cannibalism, desecration of graves, stealing, robbery,vagrancy,pillaging,war crimes, looting,illegal immigration, arson, pollution, and excessive ransacking too much, I'm sure they won't mind a little bit of tax evasion. Although, in one campaign i was in, it actually became a running gag that any devils we fought were "infernal tax collectors" trying to get us for the property tax of the giant house in my stomach.

[Augmental]

Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

"Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
[party turns to leave]
"Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
[appraisecheck]
"Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
[Guards surround the party]
"Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.

I'd probably respond to that with a Black Tentacles or similar AoE spell. That's a jerk move on the kingdom's part, and I'd be hesitant to call it good. Unless that's the point, of course.

[Ormur]

Does this mean that a cleric of Gruumsh would be exempt from any retribution after performing blood sacrifices because he would claim benefit of the clergy and be tried in an ecclesiastical court of Gruumsh?

I imagine that the church of Gruumsh would not enjoy benefit of the clergy in a state that forbade blood sacrifices by it in the first place. :smallwink:

[OracleofSilence]

Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on an Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.

Nice Joker reference.

But yeah. This seems like a very dangerous proposal. In PC versus non-NPC fights, PC's win, and if PC's have EVER seen WBL tabls, they will never, ever part with their gold.

[Bouregard]

I'd probably respond to that with a Black Tentacles or similar AoE spell. That's a jerk move on the kingdom's part, and I'd be hesitant to call it good. Unless that's the point, of course.

[party prepares Black Tentacles]

[Clerk takes a step back]

"Now hold on a minute, we're not bandits you can slay without facing any consequences. I and my tax officials are rightfully appointed man of the crown. I assure you that any violence against us will result in a bounty on your heads not only here but also in our two allied kingdoms."

"If the sum is the problem, then I can guarantee you that I already used the law in your favour.
My lord would request that a group of our internal clerks would review your earnings for the last 10 years and you would have to pay a tenth of that. This could easily take a few years."

"Further I implore you to see the bigger picture. My lord makes sure that all taxes taken from citizens of the realm will be put to good use.

"For example building new temples to appease the gods and render services to travellers,

or paying our local guards to keep the streets free of any crime,

building fortifications to protect our citizens from invading armies,

placing bounties on malcontents,

and maintaining and building the roads that you so like to use in our nice little kingdom."



/RP mode off

I so like to play devil's advocate. :smallbiggrin:

Sure the PCs can just mow down the random taxcollector or worse, use him as a nice free-money-delivery service...

I mean do you know how hard it is to loot an entire village? Hundreds of search and apppraise checks just to get a few hundred goldpieces...

Now just looting the tax collector after he did his duty.. thats the high art of advanced banditry.

Back to topic...
I see it as a nice opportunity to create interesting situation for the DM, yes the NPCs may just butcher the clerk and his guards but keep in mind that having a bounty on your head complicates a shopping trip significantly.
Every PC knows what happen to Goblins who defy the kings law and get a bounty on their head; they get a visit from a few higher level adventurers.
Why do you think just because you're a PC it is different?

They kill the tax guy = a few nights later they get a unfriendly visit by a few other adventurers with the same problem but those new guys elected to trade their taxes for a job to bring down some other guys for tax evasion.

Yes the PCs are powerful but headbutting an entire nation... thats suicide... if you're not epic level.

[DeltaEmil]

No, you just kill these imposters, because no king would hire such incompetent morons that have to resort to violence against adventurers and then suddenly back down when one of them starts muttering eldritch words making black tentacles appear and rape these imposters to dead.

In fact, they will be given a reward by the king for getting rid of those who dare speak in his name (which might result in them getting land property and a title, so that the king will actually get a tithe from them the only realistic way).

Adventurers will be spending their money on things anyway, like food, highly expensive magical items, potions, or services from other people, and these people can be taxed.

[Madara]

I wonder if Magic Items could be included as Tax Deductible. They’re self-employed..ect.
It'd be interesting for someone to run the math.

[Benly]

In practical terms, the wealth disparity between adventurers and the non-adventurer economy means that a happy compromise can be reached where your local lord demands a sum that is trivial to the adventurers but keeps his army fed for a year.

[Madara]

I wouldn't be surprised if the local lord is greedy and wants more.

[DeltaEmil]

They always want more. Which is why they'll sell their souls to demons and devils to get the power to steal stuff. Or it's a rakshasa rajah in disguise.

[ericgrau]

Well historically taxes were 10%. Tithe being literally 'a tenth part'.

However this breaks down real fast in D&D.

When we are talking 10% of your annual wheat harvest, it works well. But PC wealth quickly skyrockets to stratospheric levels compared to the rest of mundane society. Even a tenth part of PC wealth would quickly be a silly value compare to the operating budget of any mundane pursuits.

I'm assuming here you register adventuring Parties rather than individuals since solo adventure's have a name where I'm from. "Lunch"

A 15th level part's taxes at 10% would be 20k, which is enough cash to break the economy of a small city.
More like small village. That will only get you 4 decent houses or 20 lousy ones. At a level when PCs are starting to affect nations.

I've seen a DM use a 10% tax on treasure gained in big cities with very high up and powerful individuals (both in status and the power of those in their employ). Especially near a major dungeon. Alternatively you might have a sales tax

[Madara]

Alternatively you might have a sales tax

That's how they get you! PCs buy almost everything they have, whereas the average commoner makes most of their things.

[Namfuak]

That's how they get you! PCs buy almost everything they have, whereas the average commoner makes most of their things.

Commoners tend to also not plan on owning +4 Greathammers and Adamantite Full Plate armor.

[Heatwizard]

Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

"Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
[party turns to leave]
"Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
[appraisecheck]
"Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
[Guards surround the party]
"Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.

"Let me get my reading glasses. As a Bard with +20 Diplomacy, I'm afraid my party can't accept your generous offer of naturalization, as we constantly need to travel, and furthermore cannot show any political biases for which we are not hired for. Additionally, I believe you'll find we have no taxable goods, since all our equipment is company property, and as all our proceeds are reinvested into our business we are registered as a non-profit organization."

And then the rogue gets tired of all the talking and kills them all anyway.

[demigodus]

Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

"Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
[party turns to leave]
"Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
[appraisecheck]
"Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
[Guards surround the party]
"Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.

If an organization makes others, against their will, join the organization, and then extorts money out of these personnel, to provide them with "services" that they will either not be receiving, or who's cost is far out stripped by how much they are charged for these services, I wouldn't call that organization good. Wouldn't be lawful either really.

Also, taxes tend to be on income, not amount of possessions.

[tyckspoon]

Also, taxes tend to be on income, not amount of possessions.

Modern days, yes, because a large amount of wealth doesn't have a physical form any more. In the psuedo-medieval fantasy world, 'possessions' and 'wealth' are more interchangeable- you can tax a man based on his gold reserves, or the number of cattle he owns, or the acres of land he farms, because those are basically the measure of how rich he is.

[Necroticplague]

Wait, do adventurers even have taxable assets? They tend to have almost no liquid assets, but an incredibly large amount of solid (and very hard to liquify) assets. They don't own property (usually), and they don't have any actual jobs (unless "violent vagrant" is a job), and they usually aren't registered citizens of anywhere , so who's taxes do they pay, and what would it be based on?

[Acanous]

Who says adventurers aren't citizens of somewhere? All *My* characters have a homeland and family there.
I do recall one character of mine who ended up adventuring after faking his own disappearance due to a new head tax passed by a king... so he could make the money, claim he was captured by bandits, and pay the tax without losing any property or face.
That was an interesting backstory.

My current barbarian is from...a barbarian tribe, where "Taxes" are feeding the tribe and killing dangerous predators.

[TypoNinja]

I actually picture adventuring in fantasy worlds as just another profession. Similar to joining the military, but a step up. Its open to almost anybody who wants to try, but is more dangerous than your typical profession.

The upside is that adventuring for 2 months could net you more cash than 20 years of anything else. (I might be stretching things here but the idea holds up).

So, provided you survive the experience, adventuring could set you for life.

Its a job that needs to be filled, but has a very high mortality rate. (the PC's are heroic, even by adventuring standards, after all they are still alive!).

Ultimately though, you gotta go with 'its a tax free career path'. Because honestly, how's this conversation going to go?

"Hello large burly man wearing 50 lbs of metal who is proficient with more edged instruments of death and dismemberment than currently exist in the kingdom, whom with 3 friends solved problems our whole army couldn't deal with. Kindly give me some of the money you made while risking your life to solve my lieges problems."

"Hello, master of the Eldritch arts who can speak words of power capable of calling down the wrath of heaven (Fireball, lightening bolt, earthquake for theatrics) and summons the very minions of hell from their infernal homes to do your bidding. Please don't level this city with a few well placed gestures, or turn me or my hired thugs into piles of quivering goo. Money? No I didn't want any more, I'm stupid, not crazy!"

"Hello master of stealth, cunning, and.. hey where'd... AUUGH my kidneys!"

And that's for a standard human party, what happens when you start mixing in some more interesting creatures? Half Dragon? Pixie? Half Celestial? I'd love to see the tax collector with the stones to try and collect from half the parties I've been in.

Of course these are all 'goodish' party problems. Grab an evil, or even just chaotic leaning party and you are one disintegrate away from problem solved. No body, no murder charge.

[Hazzardevil]

I wonder if Magic Items could be included as Tax Deductible. They’re self-employed..ect.
It'd be interesting for someone to run the math.

I think they count as buisness expenses. Therefore, they shouldn't be taxed.
Note: Shouldn't, not won't

[Necroticplague]

Of course these are all 'goodish' party problems. Grab an evil, or even just chaotic leaning party and you are one disintegrate away from problem solved. No body, no murder charge.
And the agency that sent the tax-man is one divination spell away from learning you did it, whether they have a body or not. Heck, it's not even one of those questions that will need tricky wording, simply asking "What happened to [name]?" and then "Who killed him?" Not saying this isn't a likely-traveled route, just that the lack of body doesn't indicate lack of evidence. Or, depending on how tipsy your verse is, they have spell clocks of true res in case this happens, so you have your victim as a witness (does it still count as murder if they get better, or would that downgrade the charges to "battery with a lethal weapon").

[DeltaEmil]

Not in Eberron they won't. There is lots of low-level magic, but not high-level magic stuff (except from dragons with their whole prophecy-thingy).
At best, adventurers will be part of some agency of a nation on Khorvaire or Sarlona's Inspired, who will be the ones providing them equipment and paying for their expenses.

[Madara]

Low level adventurers however..they would probably be taxed. I really want a campaign based around tax evasion, but its gotta be a humorous campaign.

[Andorax]

I'm actualy quite surprised by the responses here. Obviously, the chaotic end of the spectrum is well represented.

Fighting-types often owe some sort of support to their liege. In a traditionally feudal system, it's either spend time in military service or buy off your responsibility.

None of the DMs here hit their clerics and paladins up for tithes when they're in town? Especially the paladins?

For rogues, guild dues aren't exactly optional either, until you're high enough level to be the one collecting them.


And especially in Eberron...all those nifty dragonmarks and the players who want to have their characters have them? Responsibility to one's house is a big deal, and that includes fiscal responsibility. There's other settings where nobody cares how liked they are, but being politically and socially ostricized in Eberron, from one's own house even, is bad news.

[tyckspoon]

Fighting-types often owe some sort of support to their liege. In a traditionally feudal system, it's either spend time in military service or buy off your responsibility.

None of the DMs here hit their clerics and paladins up for tithes when they're in town? Especially the paladins?

For rogues, guild dues aren't exactly optional either, until you're high enough level to be the one collecting them.


D&D is constructed so that character wealth is directly part of character power. Forcing your characters to give up money in this fashion is therefore directly nerfing them, which is not an a terribly popular thing among players. Especially as a number of DMs keep their players cash-starved to start with.

Now, if you're getting reasonable benefits for your money, it can be ok- the Cleric's church gives him and his associates free healing, the Wizard's old school does crafting for him at cost and will do some divining if he asks for it, the Rogue's guild gives you cheap access to unusual items and information gathering, etc. That's still annoying, but as long as it's useful it's basically just having a portion of your money spent in a particular category of purchases.

But if you're essentially saddling certain classes with Class feature: You Make Less Money because you happen to believe they should be affiliated with organizations that want to take their money? Screw that. Nothing in the rules says you have to be in any such group, so I would expect to see a lot of characters with backstories explaining that they are free rogues/clerics of a cause/inspired paladins and not part of an Order and the like.

[Need_A_Life]

In the Eberron setting, I've played an Artificer, who - according to Eberron sourcebooks - was the highest level Artificer in the setting (and could out-craft Merrix d'Cannith without breaking a sweat), who would regularly overpay for services, because he "had an image to maintain."

Stuff like buying a brand-new Airship to use for a single expedition, renting the back two carts on the Lightning Rail so that no one would disturb him during the trip and paid a servant 10k gold for having suffered an accident due to the party's irresponsible handling of an artifact.

... but if anyone had told him to pay 10% taxes, he'd laugh in their face and tell them to take it up with House Cannith.
After all, he was simply travelling through the Mournlands, stopping an invasion against Breland, rendering services to Jaela Daran, Speaker of the Flame, and exploring Xen'drik. No one formally hired him and anything he found was used to cover expenses and prepare for future challenges.

(Oh, and the artifact from above, which was rendered inactive by hot flames, caused him to commit cruelty against (magic) animals, when he handed it to a bear from a Bag of Tricks and promptly Plane-shifted it to the Plane of Fire).

[Gavinfoxx]

If he goes to the residence of mid-level adventurers...

I suppose they would be like, "Come back with an army, and it better be a good one."

And then slam the door in his face.

[Madara]

I'm actually quite surprised by the responses here. Obviously, the chaotic end of the spectrum is well represented.

Well, I find that most people play as Neutral or some chaotic. People seem to shy away from 'Lawful Good' in case they might accidentally have to follow rules like a Paladin. That's the reason why I take "Lawful" to mean "Structured, or Orderly"

It stands to reason that a Lawful Good Wizard would think logically and ask "Why should I pay taxes? What does the government provide in exchange? Protection? No. Shelter? No, Laws and Restrictions? Sure, but why should I pay for that?"

The fact is adventurers get nothing from their payment to the government.

[Benly]

It stands to reason that a Lawful Good Wizard would think logically and ask "Why should I pay taxes? What does the government provide in exchange? Protection? No. Shelter? No, Laws and Restrictions? Sure, but why should I pay for that?"

That actually sounds more Lawful Evil to me. A Lawful Good character would presumably be more inclined to funnel money into the local government and economy based on the services it provides to improve the lives of people who aren't able to instantly shape the world to their will. What with being good and all, you know.

(Of course, he may also be inclined to take measures to try to ensure that it actually is run properly for such purposes, which can be just as much of a nightmare for local lords as someone who refuses to pay taxes/tributes at all - at least those guys just stay out of the way and let them enjoy their corruption and graft in peace.)

[Madara]

Of course I won't dive deeper into an alignment discussion. But the point is that even when you're lawful, the taxes won't always be payed.

[Gavinfoxx]

It makes more sense for a government to treat adventuring parties as sovereign states onto themselves than as tax-paying citizens...

[Andorax]

Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.

[Talakeal]

Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.

That works on paper, but not in practice. Give a player a new toy, no matter how big, and they will say "Gee, that's cool I guess." But take something away, no matter how insignificant, and they will cry so loudly that people three blocks away will wonder whose two year old is having the tantrum.

[shadow_archmagi]

That works on paper, but not in practice. Give a player a new toy, no matter how big, and they will say "Gee, that's cool I guess." But take something away, no matter how insignificant, and they will cry so loudly that people three blocks away will wonder whose two year old is having the tantrum.

Simple solution: Present the money as being a tool that solves problems.

IE: "Homeless man, you're going to have to pay your guild dues by climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr and setting up this magic antenna so our listeners on the far side of the continent can hear about today's airship lacrosse results."

"What if I paid in money?"

"You have that!?"


Of course, once adventurers hit high levels this becomes meaningless, but as has already been said, the idea of normal people forcing them to do things is like the idea of the Gondor sending out the DMV to stop Gandalf from riding around without a license.

[Amphetryon]

Simple solution: Present the money as being a tool that solves problems.

IE: "Homeless man, you're going to have to pay your guild dues by climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr and setting up this magic antenna so our listeners on the far side of the continent can hear about today's airship lacrosse results."

"What if I paid in money?"

"You have that!?"


Of course, once adventurers hit high levels this becomes meaningless, but as has already been said, the idea of normal people forcing them to do things is like the idea of the Gondor sending out the DMV to stop Gandalf from riding around without a license.
Most adventurers that I've seen would prefer the prospect of climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr, partly for the adventure and partly because they'd rather have full say on what they spend their phat lewt on.

[Cwymbran-San]

I do not think many adventurers would refrain from spending their money on local affairs, especially if it is in their hometown. For our Eberron campaign, our DM gives us roleplaying advantages for having paid our taxes (and the license fees for the use of weapons, magic items and spells beyond 3rd level).

When our party walks around the lower levels of Sharn, we are almost instantly recognized as the guys whose money makes their lives possible, feeding hndreds of homeless and orphans, keeping the citie's towers in shape and such, all the things taxes are supposed to be used for IN OUR WORLD. This fame provides us with some nifty bonuses while haggling, protection from outside aggressions (within temples and the dragonmarked houses alike) as well as food and shelter as soon as we touch what we call "home base".
The services available improved with every heap of treasure we hauled back to Sharn. Not for long and we will be handed the keys to the city i guess *grin*
So, yes, you can have compensation for paying taxes, but only if your DM plays along.

[hewhosaysfish]

Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.

And if they try to get away with not paying any taxes and keeping the extra loot then that can be an encounter/adventure in itself... one for which they have received the loot in advance :smallwink:

[demigodus]

Most adventurers that I've seen would prefer the prospect of climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr, partly for the adventure and partly because they'd rather have full say on what they spend their phat lewt on.

Honestly, this would likely depend on the group of players. And possibly the tone/setting of the game. Set up taxes as something you get nice benefits for, and make the costs realistic, so for the cost of a greater magic item, the PCs are getting something pretty dang awesome political pull, and a lot of groups might have one or two member willingly handling party taxes. And possibly a little extra.

That said, I still think that if the party didn't want to pay, there really isn't much a kingdom could do to collect the money. Not short of incurring expenses in excess of the taxes they then collect.

[Longcat]

Well, it all depends on what you get for paying taxes:

Reasonable Benefits: Basic healthcare at the local temples, free access to public transportation, social status/citizenship and other immateriel benefits might convince the PCs that paying taxes is worth it.
No benefits/advantages: Taxing the PCs for the lulz? Molon labe!

[Andorax]

I guess I've just been fortunate with my playerbase then.

Rogue who's family is a "widely" known fence in town. Some items he drops off to get cash, others for them to just "unload and get what they can from it".

Knight who regularly provides income support to her upper-mid class mercantile family as part of her duty.

Paladin who routinely tithes whenever able.



My biggest loot problem with these guys isn't getting them to cough up their "fair share"...it's getting them to quit fail-searching, turning right when the treasury is left, and otherwise managing to avoid the biggest and best caches of cash each dungeon has to offer. It's maddening, I tell ya.

[Talakeal]

My biggest loot problem with these guys isn't getting them to cough up their "fair share"...it's getting them to quit fail-searching, turning right when the treasury is left, and otherwise managing to avoid the biggest and best caches of cash each dungeon has to offer. It's maddening, I tell ya.

You think that's bad, my players actively destroy large amounts of loot. From generous applications of sunder and disjunction to lighting buildings they know the enemies are in on fire instead of risking going inside.

[Rejusu]

Once successful, they break open chests full of archaeological treasures like piggy banks, and refuse to spend their ill-gotten gains on housing, food, or anything but weapons, armor, and magical items. They treat being reminded to eat and bathe as nuisance bookkeeping, have a statistically unlikely probability of being orphans, and regard entire species that consider them to be mortal foes as "cannon fodder".

Classier and richer adventurers carry self-contained and self-replenishing systems for maintaining a comfortable standard of living without ever having to spend a penny over their initial investment. Who needs to buy food or dring when you have some Everlasting Rations and an Everfull mug? Who needs housing when you can carry an instant fortress in your back pocket?


It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"

Depending on the laws of the land large sums can still be taxed even if you happen to just find them.

Anyway all this is just another illustration of how D&D economics are best considered using Bellisario's Maxim, ie not at all. Of course it works a LOT better if you don't confuse "wealth" with "gold". As has already been correctly mentioned in this thread wealth is tied to character power. Taking a large portion of WBL away significantly affects the game.

But "wealth" is not necessarily "gold". WBL is just a rough guide to how well equipped a character should be at certain levels. However it shouldn't be interpreted as a character having X amount of coinage at level Y to spend at Ye Olde Magick Mart. D&D economics works a lot better if you don't just shower the players in coins and instead directly give them the equivalent value in magic items.

This way a high level player can still have an appropriate wealth for their level and not be swimming in enough riches to buy out the kingdom. Any significantly valuable magic item would be treated as priceless, because no one would be able to afford to pay it's value in gold. This prevents players from being able to liquidate (as if they would) their assets into gold.

[Gavinfoxx]

It also works really well if you DO shower them in coins, but coins cannot ever be directly translated to powerful magical items -- ie, there are several completely separate economies going on.

[TypoNinja]

I do not think many adventurers would refrain from spending their money on local affairs, especially if it is in their hometown. For our Eberron campaign, our DM gives us roleplaying advantages for having paid our taxes (and the license fees for the use of weapons, magic items and spells beyond 3rd level).

When our party walks around the lower levels of Sharn, we are almost instantly recognized as the guys whose money makes their lives possible, feeding hndreds of homeless and orphans, keeping the citie's towers in shape and such, all the things taxes are supposed to be used for IN OUR WORLD. This fame provides us with some nifty bonuses while haggling, protection from outside aggressions (within temples and the dragonmarked houses alike) as well as food and shelter as soon as we touch what we call "home base".
The services available improved with every heap of treasure we hauled back to Sharn. Not for long and we will be handed the keys to the city i guess *grin*
So, yes, you can have compensation for paying taxes, but only if your DM plays along.

Your DM gets a cookie. In my experience people tend to really easily forget that by 10th level or so the PC have done enough crazy **** to basically be legends.

[Rejusu]

It also works really well if you DO shower them in coins, but coins cannot ever be directly translated to powerful magical items -- ie, there are several completely separate economies going on.

Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.

[tyckspoon]

Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.

Only if you think it's a problem that your characters are wealthy. Personally, I have no problem with characters having money to splash around- they can become great philanthropists, patrons of the arts, buy a largish zone of land off a broke ruler and set up a private kingdom, or just lead an incredibly extravagant life when they're not adventuring, and it's all cool. Helps ground them in the world and reduce the Murderous Hobos syndrome.

[demigodus]

Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.

I'm not really seeing how a group of people that routinely kill creatures threatening an entire kingdom having kingdom levels of money is a problem. What exactly is the issue with a PC spending a large portion of their WBL on buying political status, rather then magical items of doom?

[Gavinfoxx]

My idea is based off of the concepts shown here:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_%28DnD_Other%29/Economicon

Yes, I know this is ON dandwiki, but it is part of Frank and K's tome, and Dandwiki happens to be one of the places that this is hosted. Also, they are restricting editing to this. Go find that book elsewhere if you dont want to move your browser to dandwiki.

IE, just separate the reward system of magical items to maintain parity from 'gold'. Make it so magical items above a certain power level cant be bought for any amount of gold, and then just let the characters have fantastically large amounts of gold, but restrict the magical currency that they can buy magical items with.