[PF] How does a Summoner/Oracle abuse Imp. Eldritch Heritiage (Arcane:New Arcana)?

[deuxhero]

This series of 3 feats (one of which is free for Half-Elfs and the other not entirely useless,) gives a sorcerer spell known at CL 11, 15 and 19 to any (spontaneous?) caster that can afford the 3 feats and Charisma (Summoner and Oracle right now).

Now the obvious question is "How do you abuse this?". What 3 spells are worth grabbing off list?

[grarrrg]

This series of 3 feats (one of which is free for Half-Elfs and the other not entirely useless,) gives a sorcerer spell known at CL 11, 15 and 19 to any (spontaneous?) caster that can afford the 3 feats and Charisma (Summoner and Oracle right now).

Now the obvious question is "How do you abuse this?". What 3 spells are worth grabbing off list?

Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline)?
I'd just like to point out that a Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)'s 'base' stats DO scale with your level.


Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points...

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus...

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's...

So your Familiar is your Character level for Bab/HP/etc...
And your Character level -2 for "special" abilities, which after the first few levels mostly boils down to +Natural Armor and +Int.

[deuxhero]

I know, it just happens to be gravy to the out of list spells.

[Benly]

This series of 3 feats (one of which is free for Half-Elfs and the other not entirely useless,) gives a sorcerer spell known at CL 11, 15 and 19 to any (spontaneous?) caster that can afford the 3 feats and Charisma (Summoner and Oracle right now).

Now the obvious question is "How do you abuse this?". What 3 spells are worth grabbing off list?

Bards can take advantage too.

Personally, I've always been partial to Fabricate, and you can't go wrong with Overland Flight. Black Tentacles or one of the various walls could be nice, although summoners at least are well covered in that regard. Oracles are frequently melee-heavy, so one of the polymorph buffs could be an interesting option. They're versatile, too, which is always a concern with spontaneous casters.

[deuxhero]

Oh right, Bards, felt I was forgetting something.

[grarrrg]

Summoner/Oracle/Bard are the main beneficiaries of this, but don't forget Paladin, Cleric, or Inquisitor.

Paladin is already CHA based, but they can only get up to 4th level spells.

Clerics, only because they 'might' boost CHA high enough to make use of Channel Energy, less so because they don't have a Spells Known problem, and they can already cherry-pick some spells through Domain choice.

Inquisitors are spontaneous and get up to 6th level spells like Bards, but they are the only WIS based Spontaneous caster, which means problems when it comes to qualify for the Eldritch Heritage feats.
Recommended dipping Cleric for 1 level and taking the Channeling Scourge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeling-scourge) feat to make use of Channel Energy as well.

Outside of those 6 the use greatly diminishes, because every other class doesn't have a Spells Known problem, or has no/little reason to have CHA high enough.

[Benly]

Summoner/Oracle/Bard are the main beneficiaries of this, but don't forget Paladin, Cleric, or Inquisitor.


My concern with paladins is that, while they can fairly readily qualify for Eldritch Heritage they have so little spellcasting that I'm not sure arcane bloodline is the best use they can make of it. I suspect that Celestial/Brutal (for flight) or Orc/Abyssal (for the inherent strength bonus) might get more mileage.

A cleric who's already boosting charisma might as well pick it up; any of the ones I suggested for oracles would work fine for them, and it's also good for cases where a spell you want isn't in a domain that you like much otherwise or your deity of choice doesn't provide it.

The inquisitor really seems to be stretching it, though. You kind of have to bend over backwards to justify the Charisma investment.

[grarrrg]

My concern with paladins is that, while they can fairly readily qualify for Eldritch Heritage they have so little spellcasting that I'm not sure arcane bloodline is the best use they can make of it. I suspect that Celestial/Brutal (for flight) or Orc/Abyssal (for the inherent strength bonus) might get more mileage.

The inquisitor really seems to be stretching it, though. You kind of have to bend over backwards to justify the Charisma investment.

Generally we are agreed.
And while it 'might' not be the best choice for a Paladin, keep in mind he'll have the strongest Familiar of the group (d10 based HP, Full Bab), which is not too shabby.

Yeah, Inquisitors need to stretch a bit to make 15 CHA worthwhile, dipping Cleric for Channel as above, focusing on being a Social Skill monkey (6 Skill/level baby!), and/or Maximizing Intimidate. And of the group, they have (arguably) the most need for Bonus Spells Known

[deuxhero]

I didn't mention Paladin and Cleric users because they don't have spells known to add to and thus can't use it.

[Benly]

I didn't mention Paladin and Cleric users because they don't have spells known to add to and thus can't use it.

You could make an argument on the basis of the cleric having Spontaneous Casting, but mostly I forgot to check the wording of arcane bloodline before making that response. :smallsmile:

[koeldflare]

Are you talking about the Eldritch Heritage feats by any chance?

After looking (http://http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) over (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage) the feats (http://http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage) they only seem to indicate that you gain the Bloodline Power, but it sais nothing in these about gaining the spells known.

Is it a seperate feat or something?

Edit: Wow, failure on my part to read the title properly.

[deuxhero]

It's the 9th level bloodline power for the Arcane bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) that's being abused.


New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.

Conveniently it doesn't require adding them to your Sorcerer spells known.

Edit: Oh, the wording on Greater Eldritch Heritage makes it so you only need the base Eldritch Heritage for that bloodline, and ANY Improved Eldritch Heritage. For example, a Summoner could take.

Eldritch Heritage: Arcane
Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal
Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (New Arcana).
Greater Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal

[Acanous]

Interesting. Would a Bard that went Archaeologist and took the rogue tricks for EX 0th and 1st level spells, then took the Familiar have two familiars if he went this path?
I mean, if one counts as EX, and one is SU, I could see an argument for it.

[grarrrg]

Edit: Oh, the wording on Greater Eldritch Heritage makes it so you only need the base Eldritch Heritage for that bloodline, and ANY Improved Eldritch Heritage. For example, a Summoner could take.

Eldritch Heritage: Arcane
Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal
Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (New Arcana).
Greater Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal

You can only take Eldritch Heritage once (unless a feat says otherwise it can only be taken once), and Improved/Greater both reference, the "chosen bloodline' from Eldritch Heritage.
Only Improved says it can be taken multiple times, and that's only so you can have the 3rd AND 9th level powers.

tl;dr
You only get 1 Bloodline worth of abilities.


Interesting. Would a Bard that went Archaeologist and took the rogue tricks for EX 0th and 1st level spells, then took the Familiar have two familiars if he went this path?
I mean, if one counts as EX, and one is SU, I could see an argument for it.

Interesting oversight there...
The Wizard's Arcane Bond is labeled as Su OR Ex, but the Bloodline Ability is just SU, while the Rogue Talent is just EX...

Wizard Ex OR Su, Item or Familiar (assuming the Item is Su, and Familiar is Ex)
Sorcerer Su, Item or Familiar (Bloodline)
Sorcerer Su, Familiar (Tattooed Sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/tattooed-sorcerer))
Rogue Ex, Familiar
Witch Ex, Familiar
Alchemist Ex, Familiar (Tumor)
Magus Ex, Familiar

Wow, Paizo forgot to proofread/double check something!

[deuxhero]

Oh, didn't notice it wasn't. Assumed it was the case because all the feats that have selections on what to take within the feat are.

[Benly]

Edit: Oh, the wording on Greater Eldritch Heritage makes it so you only need the base Eldritch Heritage for that bloodline, and ANY Improved Eldritch Heritage. For example, a Summoner could take.

Eldritch Heritage: Arcane
Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal
Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane (New Arcana).
Greater Eldritch Heritage: Abysmal

I'm not sure this works, since Eldritch Heritage doesn't have the "you may take this feat more than once" text.

edit: this is what I get for opening the reply page, checking the rules text over, and then posting.

[Acanous]

technically speaking, would a sorceror not also benefit from taking this heritage? You get bonus spells known off the sor/wiz list, which would add to your spells known. This plus bloodline spells and you could be much more versitile in your spell selections.

[deuxhero]

As a set of feats?

It's 3 feats for 3 spells. Expanded Arcana is strictly better.

[grarrrg]

technically speaking, would a sorceror not also benefit from taking this heritage? You get bonus spells known off the sor/wiz list, which would add to your spells known. This plus bloodline spells and you could be much more versitile in your spell selections.

Technically speaking you could be a Crossblooded Sorcerer (you'd have to cherry pick abilities though) and pick up a full 3rd Bloodline through Eldritch Heritage.


As a set of feats?

It's 3 feats for 3 spells. Expanded Arcana is strictly better.

Technically FOUR feats, you need Skill Focus (___) to take them.
So yes, Expanded Arcana is strictly better _IF_ your casting is largely Sorc/Wiz list already (as it would be for a Sorc, duh).
For other casters (mostly Divine), then it's still worth considering.

[deuxhero]

You don't need the Greater version for picking up New Arcana, so it is 3.

[grarrrg]

You don't need the Greater version for picking up New Arcana, so it is 3.

D'OH!

That's what I get for trying to respond to multiple posts/topics at the same time...



On the bright side, I may have solved the "Do 'full list' casters "know" spells?

Unsanctioned Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/unsanctioned-knowledge):

Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd...from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level.

So there is precedent for adding spells to 'full list' lists.

[deuxhero]

Anyways, back to the subject...

Monstrous Physique II seems like it has potential for a summoner to Share Spells with (provided his pet uses natural weapons. Elemental Body and Beast Shape are inferior for your purposes), though I don't know any good forms.

[Analytica]

FWIW, I asked one of the designers (James Jacobs) about this in one of the threads over at paizo.com. The reply was that non-sorcerers do not get any new spells from taking the feats, since they do not have a sorcerer spells known class feature to start with. If you go by RAW over RAI, I guess you can still do this though. Presumably they will never get around to errata:ing it since it's such a minor thing.

[Blyte]

And while it 'might' not be the best choice for a Paladin, keep in mind he'll have the strongest Familiar of the group (d10 based HP, Full Bab), which is not too shabby.


This is pretty interesting. Perhaps this could use a thread of its' own. Which Familiar would you choose to get the most out of this? Assuming you aren't going for maximized Charisma, which buff/utility spells would you choose to compliment your Familiar/Paladin? Perhaps, you could also take some improved familiar feats like the one that gives your familiar evolutions? Also, would paladins also have the option to cast personal buffs on their familiars? With some of the polymorphic spells you could have a pretty hoss flanking buddy, perhaps in line with a druid animal companion (albeit costly featwise)

[Corlindale]

An Oracle of the Heavens can use it to pick up Scintillating Pattern, which gets pretty amazing coupled with Awesome Display. It's a pretty late-game trick, though.

[deuxhero]

FWIW, I asked one of the designers (James Jacobs) about this in one of the threads over at paizo.com. The reply was that non-sorcerers do not get any new spells from taking the feats, since they do not have a sorcerer spells known class feature to start with. If you go by RAW over RAI, I guess you can still do this though. Presumably they will never get around to errata:ing it since it's such a minor thing.

FAQ isn't RAW, and seriously, Arcane is the default bloodline so this is something they really should have noticed when they wrote the feat.

[Benly]

Anyways, back to the subject...

Monstrous Physique II seems like it has potential for a summoner to Share Spells with (provided his pet uses natural weapons. Elemental Body and Beast Shape are inferior for your purposes), though I don't know any good forms.

Four-armed gargoyle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/gargoyle/four-armed-gargoyle) is a good option. Four claws, a bite, a gore, and rend. It goes nicely with the Energy Attacks evolution (if only you could take that more than once...)

[deuxhero]

Ooh, nice. Can it wield weapons?

[Cieyrin]

This is pretty interesting. Perhaps this could use a thread of its' own. Which Familiar would you choose to get the most out of this? Assuming you aren't going for maximized Charisma, which buff/utility spells would you choose to compliment your Familiar/Paladin? Perhaps, you could also take some improved familiar feats like the one that gives your familiar evolutions? Also, would paladins also have the option to cast personal buffs on their familiars? With some of the polymorphic spells you could have a pretty hoss flanking buddy, perhaps in line with a druid animal companion (albeit costly featwise)

Arcane Bond also has the option for an object, which can be a masterwork weapon, so also consider you can have a free masterwork weapon that gets you a spell back of your choice 1/day, which is also a nice option. Free. Masterwork. Cannon. :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Free. Masterwork. Cannon. :smallbiggrin:

Thinking a little small, aren't we?

[Stormageddon]

So would this work for a druid with a high enough CHA to cast some arcane spells or is that pushing it?

[grarrrg]

So would this work for a druid with a high enough CHA to cast some arcane spells or is that pushing it?

Yes it works for any caster with high enough CHA.
Mostly pointless for Wizard/Witch/Magus though, as they already use the Sorc/Wiz list and have no limits on Spells Known (granted, Witch/Magus have slightly different lists, but they are still largely Sorc/Wiz List casters).

Druids were not mentioned up until now due to the fact that they are the LEAST likely to have high CHA.

Also, you don't need the CHA to 'cast' them, you just need it to take the Feats.