Spell Point Problems?

[Roguenewb]

I am planning on beginning a new campaign in a couple of weeks, and I had planned for sorcerers in this campaign to use the Arcane Spell Point system to better demonstrate their flexibility. Since this is a cribbed psionics system, I don't anticipate any problems. Am I wrong? Are there none issues with this system? Has anyone used it and encountered a problem?

[RMS Oceanic]

I believe Unearthed Arcana had a spell point system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm), if that's any help.

I need more reading comprehension. I've never used it, but I think you'll be okay since my (admittedly limited) experience with the Psionic Power Point system has been pretty positive.

[Epsilon Rose]

I recall hearing that it has some balance issues, but I've never played with it my self, so I can't verify that.

That said, it might be worth it for you to look at Mana Based Casting (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Mana-Based_Spellcasting_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29). It's interesting in that rather than give the caster more points as they level the cost of casting lower level spells goes down.

[Marthinwurer]

Someone wrote a pretty good homebrew that actually changed spell points anstage actual spells so that they actually meshed well. I think it's called Vancian to Psionics.

[Ernir]

I am planning on beginning a new campaign in a couple of weeks, and I had planned for sorcerers in this campaign to use the Arcane Spell Point system to better demonstrate their flexibility. Since this is a cribbed psionics system, I don't anticipate any problems. Am I wrong? Are there none issues with this system? Has anyone used it and encountered a problem?

Thing is, it isn't much like psionics at all, except for being point-based. Problems with this system:
It explosively increases the flexibility of spellcasters. Flexibility in this case transferring pretty much directly to increased applied power. It increases the gap between prepared casting classes and spontaneous casters, power-wise. Spontaneous casters become more powerful, but the prepared ones still manage to leave them in the dirt. The spells aren't designed to be used with spell points, the way psionics have augments. The only ones that actually utilize the spell point mechanics are blasting spells - for which it serves as a nerf. Metamagic isn't well defined.
That should cover the biggest ones. :smalltongue:

Someone wrote a pretty good homebrew that actually changed spell points anstage actual spells so that they actually meshed well. I think it's called Vancian to Psionics.
Thanks. :B

[Roguenewb]

I was only planning on giving it to sorcerers, and perhaps Bards and other spont casters. Does it help them get closer to wizards, or drop farther behind?

[HunterOfJello]

Using spell points would heavily discourage the use of blasting for a sorcerer. Spells that didn't use damage dice (or dice that increase by level) gain superiority in the long run.

Since Sorcerers gain spells at a slightly higher level than wizards yet have a slower learning progression, the spell points to damage dice conversion will get wonky over time. For instance, the example given in the text is that a Wizard pays 5 SP for a fireball (since 3rd level spells cost a base of 5 SP) and does 5d6 damage. A Sorcerer who casts a fireball for 5 SP does 6d6 damage since they gain access to the spell at a level higher. This is a minor problem, but will likely pop up often.

Overall, I think you'll end up with strange non-blasting sorcerers all over the place with a bit more versatility, but generally just a different set up than what normal sorcerers have. The visible difference should be the disappearance of blasting in a blasting class and the emergence of tons of spells with fixed damage dice and alternate forms of damage dealing.

[Epsilon Rose]

I should point out that the mana version doesn't have that effect and might give them a bit more staying power since it regens mana over time, rather than all at once after sleeping for 8 hours (which always struck me as slightly silly).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The spells aren't designed to be used with spell points, the way psionics have augments. The only ones that actually utilize the spell point mechanics are blasting spells - for which it serves as a nerf.[

This. Caster level really only matters for evocations; outside of that, if a spell lasts for more than two or three rounds, well... combat's probably over by then. And given that you can spend all of your actions casting your highest-level save-or-suck/die spells...

I recently worked on a semi-spell point system for the sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230721), and had a lot of trouble balancing costs for the higher-level spells, to the point where I eventually gave up and put in an arbitrary limit.

[cidolphus]

kinda off topic, but UA also has the spell recharge system, which might be another way to set your spontaneous classes apart. i have not played it yet, but I,m working on one now that im hoping is going to feel like warlock with better invocations

[Roguenewb]

Oooooh, a Recharge sorcerer might be very interesting. Has anybody using recharge magic?

Edit: But wouldn't i have to make up a recharge time for every spell outside of the PHB?

[Epsilon Rose]

Yes you would, that's one of the main reasons I don't use it.

[Roguenewb]

After reading all of the recharge section (SRD, not UA text), it seems like the book has a guideline system for creating recharge times. I'd have to make sure the player using it was smart and honest enough to work them up for himself....

But the key issue, do you think at levels 7-14, that a recharge Sorcerer and a standard Wizard in the same campaign would feel different to each other, or would it all be behind the scenes mechanics?

[Jergmo]

I use the Spell Points variant in my own campaign. It does have balance issues, as high level spells cost far too little, but I came up with a simple enough fix that's worked very well for me and my players.

The cost of a spell is spell level x spell level /2, rounded down.

1st: 1 point
2nd: 2 points
3rd: 4 points
4th: 8 points
5th: 12 points
6th: 18 points
7th: 24 points
8th: 32 points
9th: 40 points

Additionally, spells that deal damage are at their minimum caster level - but you can spend points to increase the CL on a 1-1 basis.

For example, a 10th level fireball is equal to 9 spell points for a wizard, 8 for a sorcerer.

I hope this helps!

[Rubik]

You could always try replacing sorcerers with psions, and give psions the sorcerer options out of the other books (such as ACFs and bloodlines and so on). Psionics is REEEEEALLY easy to refluff.

[Roguenewb]

I feel like there are a lot of really classic magic spells that psionics doesn't have...

[Epsilon Rose]

It might also be worth suggesting sorcerers go with one of the fixed list casters (with homebrew there's one for every school) or you could check spell shaping (also homebrew) for some very good tob-esque blasting. Either option would be very different than wizard and has the advantage of not trying to compete with them.

[Lateral]

I feel like there are a lot of really classic magic spells that psionics doesn't have...

That's what Spell-to-Power Erudites are for. :smallwink:

Editor's note: This post does not endorse the use of StP erudites for PCs. They can crush your campaign under the heel of their boot.

[Draz74]

In case you didn't catch Ernir's subtle style of self-promotion earlier in this thread, look at his signature. It has a well-done conversion of magic to psionics-mechanics that covers all the non-broken Core spells.

[Marnath]

You could always try replacing sorcerers with psions, and give psions the sorcerer options out of the other books (such as ACFs and bloodlines and so on). Psionics is REEEEEALLY easy to refluff.


That's what Spell-to-Power Erudites are for. :smallwink:

Editor's note: This post does not endorse the use of StP erudites for PCs. They can crush your campaign under the heel of their boot.

I was thinking about this a while ago and I thought a combination of these would work. Psion chassis but draws spells off the sorceror/wizard list instead of powers(basically, using StP rules for how much they cost) and replacing the discipline thing with familiar and the psionic skills for their arcane equivalent. So a level 6 sorcerer would have 4 3rd level spells known instead of just one, and also two bonus feats. That doesn't sound overpowered to me, at least.