[3.5] Incarnate Building

[aphoticConniver]

I'm trying to build an Incarnate for an Eberron campaign, bit of an odd duck, but it should would. I would like to be Lawful, use Incarnate Weapon as a main weapon, and wear as little actual armor as possible, to make room for the soulmelds.
Is it worth kicking two feats for Ankheg Breastplate and Wurmtail Belt for even more stacks to armor? What would some other suggestions be, to maximize effectiveness as a swift combatant?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm trying to build an Incarnate for an Eberron campaign, bit of an odd duck, but it should would. I would like to be Lawful, use Incarnate Weapon as a main weapon, and wear as little actual armor as possible, to make room for the soulmelds.
Is it worth kicking two feats for Ankheg Breastplate and Wurmtail Belt for even more stacks to armor? What would some other suggestions be, to maximize effectiveness as a swift combatant?

Emphasis mine. Soulmelds don't take up magic item slots unless they're bound to a chakra - and you can't bind anything to your Soul chakra (body slot, AKA armor slot) until 18th level as an Incarnate; and if you're a Soulborn or a totemist, you can never bind anything to it pre-Epic.

You're an Incarnate, so you start with medium armor proficiencies. Grab a breastplate (or mithral full plate). Few soulmelds are worth the Soul bind, to tell you the truth, and if there's one that you absolutely must have, you can alway grab the Split Chakra feat.

Does this address any of your concerns?

[aphoticConniver]

Quite a bit, actually. I should be able to grab such plate with 9th level cash, and I didn't realize the slot wasn't taken up if the meld wasn't shaped. Wurmtail Belt would still be preferable due to natural armor bonus, correct?

[aphoticConniver]

Alright, here's the build I have so far:

Azurin Incarnate 9
Lawful Neutral
STR: 21
CON: 21
DEX: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 11
CHA: 19

Feats
Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt
Bonus Essentia
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

+3 Incarnum Longsword +15 to hit, [1d8+10] wielded 2-handed
AC: 28 (1 DEX + 9 (+1 Mithral Full Plate) + 5 (Wormtail Belt) + 3 (Crystal Helm)

Gear:
+1 Mithral Fullplate
Hat of Disguise
Amulet of Health +2
Belt of Giant's Strength +2
Ring of Admantine Touch

Soulmelds:
Incarnate Weapon (Bound to Arm) 3 points
Incarnate Avatar 3 points
Crystal Helm 3 points
Wormtail Belt 3 points
Soulspark Familiar (Bound to Brow) 0 points.

Any glaring flaws?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alright, here's the build I have so far:

Azurin Incarnate 9
Lawful Neutral
STR: 21
CON: 21
DEX: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 11
CHA: 19

Feats
Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt
Bonus Essentia
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

+3 Incarnum Longsword +15 to hit, [1d8+10] wielded 2-handed
AC: 28 (1 DEX + 9 (+1 Mithral Full Plate) + 5 (Wormtail Belt) + 3 (Crystal Helm)

Gear:
+1 Mithral Fullplate
Hat of Disguise
Amulet of Health +2
Belt of Giant's Strength +2
Ring of Admantine Touch

Soulmelds:
Incarnate Weapon (Bound to Arm) 3 points
Incarnate Avatar 3 points
Crystal Helm 3 points
Wormtail Belt 3 points
Soulspark Familiar (Bound to Brow) 0 points.

Any glaring flaws?

Why the 19 in Cha? There are a few soulmelds that give saves (Incarnate Weapon bound to your Arm Chakra, for example) and their saves are based of of essentia invested and your Wisdom modifier - I'd advise trading around your Charisma and Wisdom scores (unless, on the off chance you're intent on abusing UMD).

Why the Great Cleave? I can understand Cleave (if your campaign has you going against hordes of low-CR enemies), but Great Cleave? If you replaced it with something like Improved Soulmeld Capacity, you could toss another point (over your normal maximum) into a single soulmeld (like your Incarnate Weapon). Hek, if you chose to bind the Astral Vambraces (found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), then you could get Cleave for FREE so long as you bind them to your Arms chakra.

Why do you have the Soulspark Familiar shaped? Although useful at low(er) levels as a tank, at the levels you're at, they're equivalent to a weak summons. As an alternative, might I suggest Mage's Spectacles (UMD abuse), Impulse Boots (have you seen what you can get from it?) or the Spellward Shirt (one of the best sources for SR in the entire game).

Also, this is an excellent reference to read through;
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580

[aphoticConniver]

Why the 19 in Cha? There are a few soulmelds that give saves (Incarnate Weapon bound to your Arm Chakra, for example) and their saves are based of of essentia invested and your Wisdom modifier - I'd advise trading around your Charisma and Wisdom scores (unless, on the off chance you're intent on abusing UMD).

(The 19 was just a luck of the roll, and I don't believe the DM would allow a switch. At any rate, I plan on buffing myself more than using offensive soulmelds.)

Why the Great Cleave? I can understand Cleave (if your campaign has you going against hordes of low-CR enemies), but Great Cleave? If you replaced it with something like Improved Soulmeld Capacity, you could toss another point (over your normal maximum) into a single soulmeld (like your Incarnate Weapon). Hek, if you chose to bind the Astral Vambraces (found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), then you could get Cleave for FREE so long as you bind them to your Arms chakra.

(I suppose both Cleaves could be ditched, keeping Power Attack.)

Why do you have the Soulspark Familiar shaped? Although useful at low(er) levels as a tank, at the levels you're at, they're equivalent to a weak summons. As an alternative, might I suggest Mage's Spectacles (UMD abuse), Impulse Boots (have you seen what you can get from it?) or the Spellward Shirt (one of the best sources for SR in the entire game).

(Soulspark seemed like a good idea for a secondary source of damage, because I feel like my damage with the Incarnate Weapon alone wouldn't be great enough.)

Also, this is an excellent reference to read through;
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580

(I've read through the Handbook, and I don't see any builds mentioning Tanking, although I could be oblivious.)

My other question is this: If I want to focus on being the group's main tank, would going sword and board be better, or two-handing the longsword? If I tank, I'd probably shape Mantle of Flame instead of Incarnate Avatar, and Astral Vambraces for the sheer amount of DR that could be attained.

[Chronos]

Quite a bit, actually. I should be able to grab such plate with 9th level cash, and I didn't realize the slot wasn't taken up if the meld wasn't shaped. I don't know if this was just a brain fart or an actual misunderstanding, but "shaped" and "bound" are two different things. The soulmeld being shaped means it's active. A soulmeld that isn't shaped at the moment doesn't exist (though it might exist on some other day when you shape it). In addition to shaping the soulmeld, you can also choose to bind it (if you're high enough level to have that chakra open), which unlocks extra abilities, but costs you the item slot.

[big teej]

I'm trying to build an Incarnate for an Eberron campaign, bit of an odd duck, but it should would. I would like to be Lawful, use Incarnate Weapon as a main weapon, and wear as little actual armor as possible, to make room for the soulmelds.
Is it worth kicking two feats for Ankheg Breastplate and Wurmtail Belt for even more stacks to armor? What would some other suggestions be, to maximize effectiveness as a swift combatant?

maybe I'm loopy. but I'm fairly sure Incarnates can't shape Ankheg Breastplates or Wurmtail Belts.

those both sound like Totemist melds to me.

[eggs]

Should I assume Cha and Wis are swapped?
If they aren't, they probably should be - the big draw of Incarnate Weapon is the Stun effect.

At level 9, you're going to want some means of tactical teleportation and flight. I'd shift some money around to get an Anklet of Translocation and Feathered Wings graft, so that one Web or Levitate spell doesn't shut you down.

+15 attack/14.5 damage is very low for level 9 melee, and this build has enough resources dedicated to melee that it's not going to make up for that shortcoming with its utility. At least be sure to shape Mage's Spectacles, so that you can UMD your way around non-combat situations and drop spells in combat when you need to.

If you're going for a noncasting melee Incarnate build, I like Incarnate/Forgemaster with periodic dips into Crusader. This keeps the numeric values up, while also providing a variety of other useful melee-based abilities.

If you stick with straight Incarnate, the Necrocarnum Meldshaping feat for Necrocarnum Circlet is a very useful investment - Necrocarnum Zombies can be very strong, even if your character itself is not. Melee incarnates can work pretty well by spamming Incarnate Weapon stuns while the Zombies do the heavy damage-based lifting. This also tends to lift some of the resource requirements from the Incarnate's straight melee ability, allowing for some out-of-combat resource investments.

[aphoticConniver]

I don't know if this was just a brain fart or an actual misunderstanding, but "shaped" and "bound" are two different things. The soulmeld being shaped means it's active. A soulmeld that isn't shaped at the moment doesn't exist (though it might exist on some other day when you shape it). In addition to shaping the soulmeld, you can also choose to bind it (if you're high enough level to have that chakra open), which unlocks extra abilities, but costs you the item slot.

Right, my bad. Mind slipped into term slang for a moment.


maybe I'm loopy. but I'm fairly sure Incarnates can't shape Ankheg Breastplates or Wurmtail Belts.

those both sound like Totemist melds to me.

They are, which means it would require 2 Shape Soulmeld feats to use them.


Should I assume Cha and Wis are swapped?
If they aren't, they probably should be - the big draw of Incarnate Weapon is the Stun effect.

At level 9, you're going to want some means of tactical teleportation and flight. I'd shift some money around to get an Anklet of Translocation and Feathered Wings graft, so that one Web or Levitate spell doesn't shut you down.

+15 attack/14.5 damage is very low for level 9 melee, and this build has enough resources dedicated to melee that it's not going to make up for that shortcoming with its utility. At least be sure to shape Mage's Spectacles, so that you can UMD your way around non-combat situations and drop spells in combat when you need to.

If you're going for a noncasting melee Incarnate build, I like Incarnate/Forgemaster with periodic dips into Crusader. This keeps the numeric values up, while also providing a variety of other useful melee-based abilities.

If you stick with straight Incarnate, the Necrocarnum Meldshaping feat for Necrocarnum Circlet is a very useful investment - Necrocarnum Zombies can be very strong, even if your character itself is not. Melee incarnates can work pretty well by spamming Incarnate Weapon stuns while the Zombies do the heavy damage-based lifting. This also tends to lift some of the resource requirements from the Incarnate's straight melee ability, allowing for some out-of-combat resource investments.

The basic role I'm shooting for non-fluff-wise is I want to have a disgustingly high AC/DR and draw all the attacks, possibly using an arrow-catching shield in conjunction with Fellmist robe, as well as Mantle of Flame to deal a majority of the damage. I do agree that I need some items that help me control the battlefield, as opposed to items that mainly help fluff, such as the Hat of Disguise. Fluff-wise, my character is supposed to be a bodyguard/infiltrator, stealing political secrets and the like, while mechanically being able to take a few knocks. What would a recommended set of melds be for that, allowing for two things:
1. I'd like to keep Incarnate Weapon.
2. I can't switch my CHA and WIS, sadly enough.

I'm open to suggestions for alternate meldshaping classes, with homebrew allowed, as long as it's decently balanced.

[Zaq]

Having played a lawful Incarnate (in an E6 game, for what that's worth), you can very easily make yourself very, very tough, but it's unfortunately quite easy to slip into Dwarven Defender Syndrome—they can't kill you, but they don't have much incentive to pay attention to you. I'd make sure to focus on offense, probably even a bit more than you'd normally expect to, just because otherwise, you WILL be ignored, and that defeats half the point of this whole endeavor, now doesn't it?

If you have a few feats to play with, you might drop a Shape Soulmeld on the Mauling Gauntlets, and then another feat on some kind of interesting STR-based combat maneuver (trip, bull rush, etc.), since a 10 STR Incarnate with the Mauling Gauntlets shaped can get a much higher bonus to STR checks than a raging Barbarian (assume level 3: with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and SS: Mauling Gauntlets, a 10 STR Incarnate has a +8 on STR checks, or the equivalent of 26 STR. A raging full-blood orc Barb with a pre-racial 18 in STR has the same 26 STR. If the Barb is any other race, if they don't buy a pre-racial 18, or if the Incarnate has more than 10 STR, the Incarnate wins flat out), and since it's essentia-based, it kind of scales. This is awesome with trips and what have you, or my preference, with the harpoon, from Frostburn. It's a good way to command some attention on the battlefield and make your presence felt.

[aphoticConniver]

Having played a lawful Incarnate (in an E6 game, for what that's worth), you can very easily make yourself very, very tough, but it's unfortunately quite easy to slip into Dwarven Defender Syndrome—they can't kill you, but they don't have much incentive to pay attention to you. I'd make sure to focus on offense, probably even a bit more than you'd normally expect to, just because otherwise, you WILL be ignored, and that defeats half the point of this whole endeavor, now doesn't it?

If you have a few feats to play with, you might drop a Shape Soulmeld on the Mauling Gauntlets, and then another feat on some kind of interesting STR-based combat maneuver (trip, bull rush, etc.), since a 10 STR Incarnate with the Mauling Gauntlets shaped can get a much higher bonus to STR checks than a raging Barbarian (assume level 3: with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and SS: Mauling Gauntlets, a 10 STR Incarnate has a +8 on STR checks, or the equivalent of 26 STR. A raging full-blood orc Barb with a pre-racial 18 in STR has the same 26 STR. If the Barb is any other race, if they don't buy a pre-racial 18, or if the Incarnate has more than 10 STR, the Incarnate wins flat out), and since it's essentia-based, it kind of scales. This is awesome with trips and what have you, or my preference, with the harpoon, from Frostburn. It's a good way to command some attention on the battlefield and make your presence felt.

Would perhaps grappling work as the combat maneuver?

[Zaq]

Would perhaps grappling work as the combat maneuver?

Not with Mauling Gauntlets. Grappling isn't a STR check in the way that, say, tripping is. Totemists have some grappling melds you could poach if you wanted to go down that road, though.

[aphoticConniver]

Hmmm.... If I wanted to make my character fit this description, how would I do it?

A pair of steely blue orbs peer out from the darkness. The guard hardly has a moment to wonder before they disappear, leaving only the afterimage of a glow in the dark. His brain stops to think over the possibilities. An animal? Possibly, but this far into the city? Unlikely. He doesn't have a chance to consider a second option before the glowing blue blade pierces his midsection, and a gloved hand muffles his cry as his dying body is dragged out of sight.

Now I realize that isn't very tank-like, but how would one make a rogue-ish character out of an incarnum class?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmmm.... If I wanted to make my character fit this description, how would I do it?

A pair of steely blue orbs peer out from the darkness. The guard hardly has a moment to wonder before they disappear, leaving only the afterimage of a glow in the dark. His brain stops to think over the possibilities. An animal? Possibly, but this far into the city? Unlikely. He doesn't have a chance to consider a second option before the glowing blue blade pierces his midsection, and a gloved hand muffles his cry as his dying body is dragged out of sight.

Now I realize that isn't very tank-like, but how would one make a rogue-ish character out of an incarnum class?

To be honest, that sounds more like an Umbral Disciple (MoI, page 158). It's sneaky-based incarnum. It's doesn't grant any chakra binds, however, and synergizes well with swordsage and some totemist soulmelds (Worg Pelt, for example).

[aphoticConniver]

Actually, I took a good browse around, and the Warsoul homebrew class seemed perfect. Thanks for all the help though!

[Chronos]

It's doesn't grant any chakra binds, however, and synergizes well with swordsage and some totemist soulmelds (Worg Pelt, for example).Just a reminder: Totemist skill bonuses are competence bonuses, and hence don't stack with most magic item bonuses, and hence are nearly worthless.

[Particle_Man]

Have you considered Sapphire Hierarch? It costs a three incarnate levels but could give you a heck of a boost, and you are lawful anyhow.

[Darth Stabber]

Just a reminder: Totemist skill bonuses are competence bonuses, and hence don't stack with most magic item bonuses, and hence are nearly worthless.

Totemists skill bonuses are indeed competence, but they tend to be very large (as opposed to most othe competence bonuses), and competence still stacks with enhancement (what you get get from items, which tend to also be big bonuses). And totemist is pretty much the best grappler that can't turn into a bear.