Vaarsuvius' Deal (no, not THAT thread again!)

[Incom]

So we all know the popular theory (it's practically assumed fact by this point) that the IFCC can call in their debt on V's soul while he's still alive to produce a mind-control effect.

This could be MUCH worse than we realize. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that the IFCC does just that in the next strip. Remember the terms of the deal:

"Each one of us will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of their soul splice."

So one of the IFCC members redeems their time and is now in possession of mind-controlled V. Let's say that they immediately attach some new splices to V.

Under the terms of the deal, since V is under the effects of the fiend's soul splice, this time counts in favor of the fiend's debt. They could, in effect, control V indefinitely. (Or at least long enough to force him to accept a deal for indefinite time, if we're going to rule that this doesn't count.) Let that sink in: we could have an all-powerful wizard, under permanent mind control by epic fiends, on the mortal plane. And they won't be as stupid as power-drunk Vaarsuvius. Blowing up gates? Child's play. Dark One-style ritual (though obviously not an exact copy)? Who's gonna stop them? Tiamat's genocide against good dragons? They're not kidding. Their stated goal of uniting the fiendish races? Easy, after setting that kind of example.

This could end VERY badly.

Thoughts?

[Steward]

I feel like that would be, as the Riddler might put it, "grand-scale cheating". If you could magically compel someone to participate in a Faustian pact, the idea of diabolical (or demonic) temptation would be meaningless. That is, if they can do that (force Vaarsuvius to accept a second, unrelated contract as part of the terms of the first contract), what's to stop them from just deciding that Vaarsuvius has to be their slave for all eternity?

I believe that the "soul-splice" deal has run its course. If they want to extend the time of V's servitude beyond what she has already consented to as a result of the first deal, they have to make her a new deal. They can't just force her to sign another pact.

(Besides, if they could just straight-up force V to agree to a new splice in order to prolong with her servitude, why bother with Vaarsuvius at all? They could theoretically do that to anyone, at any time. They could even find some demon cultist somewhere who would gladly cooperate with them for all eternity, without the need for any trickery.)

[Forikroder]

So we all know the popular theory (it's practically assumed fact by this point) that the IFCC can call in their debt on V's soul while he's still alive to produce a mind-control effect.

This could be MUCH worse than we realize. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that the IFCC does just that in the next strip. Remember the terms of the deal:

"Each one of us will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of their soul splice."

So one of the IFCC members redeems their time and is now in possession of mind-controlled V. Let's say that they immediately attach some new splices to V.

Under the terms of the deal, since V is under the effects of the fiend's soul splice, this time counts in favor of the fiend's debt. They could, in effect, control V indefinitely. (Or at least long enough to force him to accept a deal for indefinite time, if we're going to rule that this doesn't count.) Let that sink in: we could have an all-powerful wizard, under permanent mind control by epic fiends, on the mortal plane. And they won't be as stupid as power-drunk Vaarsuvius. Blowing up gates? Child's play. Dark One-style ritual (though obviously not an exact copy)? Who's gonna stop them? Tiamat's genocide against good dragons? They're not kidding. Their stated goal of uniting the fiendish races? Easy, after setting that kind of example.

This could end VERY badly.

Thoughts?

it doesnt work like that, if it did then theyd jsut take Vs soul and force V to swear eternal loyalty to them

if there goal was to get V no matter what then they wouldnt have told him the second option, they arent interested in completing there goal through any methods possible (most likely they cant complete it through such methods) they have to get V while V can choose to say no thats the whole point if they wanted to they could possibly take him by force like have Quarr give Z the coordinates for a plane they can act on and ambush V when he arrives but they didnt

most likely HOW they do it is as important as WHAT there doing

[martianmister]

V can't make deals if she's not free.

[Acanous]

Really, what scares me more is if they're allowed to take it in single-round incriments.

[Forikroder]

Really, what scares me more is if they're allowed to take it in single-round incriments.

i dont think so i think V has to hand over his soul after he dies to each of the fiends for how long he used the splice, if they give it back to him before the times up they cant ask for it back since he willingly gave it to them and they willingly gave it back

im not convinced they can force V to do there bidding while hes alive either they never specifically said that they could do that and there whole stick was "were not trying to trick you, no fine print no loopholes, were offering a good and telling you the cost its your call" i mean they even told him the alternate plan it seemed like there whole method of operation is tell the truth and use that to trick them into doing what i want

[factotum]

i dont think so i think V has to hand over his soul after he dies to each of the fiends for how long he used the splice, if they give it back to him before the times up they cant ask for it back since he willingly gave it to them and they willingly gave it back

What use is V's soul to them when he's dead--especially since they're reasonably confident they'll get it anyway, after the thing with the black dragons? Why would they have said "If the elf dies here, this has all been a massive waste of time" while he was fighting Xykon, if they needed his soul after he died?

As for them saying there were no loopholes, these are embodiments of Evil in all its varieties we're talking about here--you think lying by omission is beyond them? They never specifically said that they'd only get V's soul after his death, after all.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm pretty sure V has to be consentient to accept a deal with the fiends.
Otherwise they could just mind dominate people into selling their souls.

However, it is possible that they could force V to take other splices while controlled. That would not count towards V's debt, but would give the ifcc a much stronger pawn. I don't think that will be the case for story reasons. V would become too powerful as a result.

Rigth now, the ifcc could take control of V to save the day against the linear guild. After all, if the oots get destroied, the ifcc loses the chance to tamper with the gates.

[Kish]

i dont think so i think V has to hand over his soul after he dies to each of the fiends for how long he used the splice, if they give it back to him before the times up they cant ask for it back since he willingly gave it to them and they willingly gave it back

im not convinced they can force V to do there bidding while hes alive either they never specifically said that they could do that and there whole stick was "were not trying to trick you, no fine print no loopholes, were offering a good and telling you the cost its your call" i mean they even told him the alternate plan it seemed like there whole method of operation is tell the truth and use that to trick them into doing what i want
So I take it you believe that Vaarsuvius was just the next customer to come along. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)

(And, as a freebie, that the called-out-as-such ridiculous alternate plan would have worked.)

[ManuelSacha]

It doesn't work that way. :smallsigh:

V gets to be controlled by the IFCC for the time he had those splices HE MADE THE PACT FOR. Not for eventual other splices they might give him later on their own initiative.

[Forikroder]

What use is V's soul to them when he's dead--especially since they're reasonably confident they'll get it anyway, after the thing with the black dragons? Why would they have said "If the elf dies here, this has all been a massive waste of time" while he was fighting Xykon, if they needed his soul after he died?

As for them saying there were no loopholes, these are embodiments of Evil in all its varieties we're talking about here--you think lying by omission is beyond them? They never specifically said that they'd only get V's soul after his death, after all.

considering with the effect of splices its obvious that spellcasters keep all there powers een after dieing, the only way V isnt useful to them is he would be lacking a corporeal body on the physical plane, since we have no idea what there plan is we have no idea if what they need V to do (if they need V to do anything at all) requires him to be on the physical plane

they might even ahve pawns set up that they can force Vs soul into to do the job they need done

as for "if the elf dies it was all for nothing" was because he hadnt accomplished anything he had walked in and got destroyed by Xykon they wanted Xykon to get his ass in gear and all V had managed to do was make Xykon cast a couple spells he would ahve sat in the tower for several more months until Redcloak decided everything was perfect to move out


So I take it you believe that Vaarsuvius was just the next customer to come along.

(And, as a freebie, that the called-out-as-such ridiculous alternate plan would have worked.)

i dont think they needed V as anything more then a boot to kick Xykons but to get him moving i think they have some plan that there gonna be using Vs soul for, after v dies, that wont take long so the time they have it from v accepting the deal is enough

they probably want to completely corrupt V so they can play it safe and have his soul for entirety (and have a more impressive report to the higher ups) but i think if there was another spellcaster that had a serious grudge against Xykon and they could corrupt as easily as V they would have been jsut as willing to use that one

[Gnome Alone]

(And, as a freebie, that the called-out-as-such ridiculous alternate plan would have worked.)

Was it really that ridiculous though? I mean it was risky but I thought it was plausible. To save my child I'd take the sure-thing Faustian bargain over it too, but not before I seriously considered the only feasible alternative.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Just like the Genie says, you can't use a wish to ask for more wishes...

The IFCC can't get more time out of Vaarsuvius, but they can do tremendous damage with the time they have now.

Unless... Belkar somehow disrupts them?

[Winter]

Was it really that ridiculous though? I mean it was risky but I thought it was plausible.

No, the plan could not work. It actually could never work in time. The fact the fiends dropped the 10-minute-casting-time for the resurrection alone makes it right out impossible to succeed.

And that is not the only problem with it. There is also a sending to be cast, the information has to be communicated concisely in 25 words, Aarindarius must be
a) available,
b) he must actually be strong enough to defeat an ABD enclosed in an anti-magic field (that the fiends say he can do it is no proof he could do it!),
c) he must have the right spells memorised (he's expecting Ivory-Tower-Duty, not fighting an ABD with PC-levels in Wizard or Sorcerer; at the very least, he needs Teleport),
d) he must be willing to risk his own life for Vaarsuvius (we also do not know that!), and
e) he must react very quickly (and not spending a few moments to prepare as in finding some scrolls, potions, scrying, etc).

I see now way it could work and especially no way it works in the very small amount of time given before the ABD has cast the Soul Binds and teleported out.

[Winter]

Was it really that ridiculous though? I mean it was risky but I thought it was plausible.

No, the plan could not work. It actually could never work in time. The fact the fiends dropped the 10-minute-casting-time for the resurrection alone makes it right out impossible to succeed.

And that is not the only problem with it. There is also a sending to be cast, the information has to be communicated concisely in 25 words, Aarindarius must be
a) available,
b) he must actually be strong enough to defeat an ABD enclosed in an anti-magic field (that the fiends say he can do it is no proof he could do it!),
c) he must have the right spells memorised (he's expecting Ivory-Tower-Duty, not fighting an ABD with PC-levels in Wizard or Sorcerer; at the very least, he needs Teleport),
d) he must be willing to risk his own life for Vaarsuvius (we also do not know that!), and
e) he must react very quickly (and not spending a few moments to prepare as in finding some scrolls, potions, scrying, etc).

I see now way it could work and especially no way it works in the very small amount of time given before the ABD has cast the Soul Binds and teleported out.

[Kish]

Was it really that ridiculous though? I mean it was risky but I thought it was plausible. To save my child I'd take the sure-thing Faustian bargain over it too, but not before I seriously considered the only feasible alternative.
1) The IFCC counted on Vaarsuvius not making the distinction between "Lawful" and "robot." If the imp had actually been presented with a plan which involved his death, he would likely have said, "No way, and no I don't care that I said I'd help you!"
2) Resurrection has a ten-minute casting time. Would you like to guess how much would have been left of Vaarsuvius' family in ten minutes?
3) Durkon may, or may not, actually have a scroll of Sending. I do, however, note that after he used up all four Sending spells he'd prepared talking to Roy, he scrapped his plan to Send to Haley, Vaarsuvius and Elan, rather than pulling out a scroll to do it with.
That enough to be going on with?

[factotum]

3) Durkon may, or may not, actually have a scroll of Sending. I do, however, note that after he used up all four Sending spells he'd prepared talking to Roy

Which strip did he do that in? I remember V Sending to Roy in #741, but I don't remember Durkon doing it.

[Kish]

Strip #733.

[Sunken Valley]

Strip 834 proves that Durkon has a scroll of Sending.

[zimmerwald1915]

Strip 834 proves that Durkon has a scroll of Sending.
As for strip 834, yes. It does not prove that Durkon had a scroll of Sending in strip 634, which is part of the point being discussed.

[Peelee]

2) Resurrection has a ten-minute casting time. Would you like to guess how much would have been left of Vaarsuvius' family in ten minutes?


For what it's worth, Vaarsuvius had no idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) Ressurection took so long. Not a hole in your argument, but goes along the same lines as IFCC betting on things Vaarsuvius didn't know.

[Winter]

For what it's worth, Vaarsuvius had no idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) Ressurection took so long. Not a hole in your argument, but goes along the same lines as IFCC betting on things Vaarsuvius didn't know.

Which is totally his fault. But the point here is not what Vaasuvius thought but if we consider the presented "solution" a valid option. Which it, I think, clearly was not.

[Peelee]

Which is totally his fault. But the point here is not what Vaasuvius thought but if we consider the presented "solution" a valid option. Which it, I think, clearly was not.

Oh, yeah, totally agree on all counts there. Also, I specifically quoted Kish's argument instead of yours because his seemed more geared toward what Vaarsuvius should have been able to figure out.

See also: Kish, if I misread that, sorry.

[Kish]

My argument was aimed at proving the ridiculous alternate plan genuinely deserved the term "ridiculous," pursuant to demonstrating the dishonesty of the three archfiends.

(For my next trick, I will argue and successfully prove that water is wet!!!!!111)

[Forikroder]

also note that Varsuvious teleported right to the boats after beating the ABD and Durkon was not on the boats having already left for greysky city, if the imp had brought vs head then the imp probably would ahve died and theyd be left with Vs head and no cleric to ressurect it

[MReav]

Was it really that ridiculous though? I mean it was risky but I thought it was plausible. To save my child I'd take the sure-thing Faustian bargain over it too, but not before I seriously considered the only feasible alternative.

The plan was never viable to begin with. The fiends pretty much stated as much to Qaar. The only reason why V didn't see through it was the combined amount of panic, desperation, a lack of trancing, and arguably malnutrition. V wasn't in a right state of mind. The whole point of offering the alternative was to remove V's perception of it being a noble sacrifice. It actually would have been, but by presenting an alternative that V, in her state of mind, might believe might work, it made V believe he was doing this for selfish reasons, and so V proceeded to use it selfishly.

[Forikroder]

The plan was never viable to begin with. The fiends pretty much stated as much to Qaar. The only reason why V didn't see through it was the combined amount of panic, desperation, a lack of trancing, and arguably malnutrition. V wasn't in a right state of mind. The whole point of offering the alternative was to remove V's perception of it being a noble sacrifice. It actually would have been, but by presenting an alternative that V, in her state of mind, might believe might work, it made V believe he was doing this for selfish reasons, and so V proceeded to use it selfishly.

i think its more rich messed up then the fiends were purposely lying to V it wouldnt be the first time he forgot about a spells cast time

[Fallbot]

i think its more rich messed up then the fiends were purposely lying to V it wouldnt be the first time he forgot about a spells cast time

Considering that the casting time was a plot point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) not twenty strips later, that seems unlikely.

[Forikroder]

Considering that the casting time was a plot point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) not twenty strips later, that seems unlikely.

considering that the 20 strips werent posted the same day i dont think tahts good evidence

forgot about teh cast time on ressurection the first time around and when he got around to actually ressurection he had thought about how to get V to attack Xykon alone without the rest of the order so he used the casting time to make V to impatient

[Fallbot]

I don't subscribe to the whole "Rich-sensei is god of the written word, every last detail is minutely planned out!" school of though that some people seem to, but I also don't believe a professional writer would be so incredibly sloppy. Especially when the "evil fiends were spinning a(n unlikely) story to manipulate an exhausted and desperate V into admitting the real reason for the deal" explanation makes perfect sense. I mean the strip is called The Wrong Reasons for a reason.

[Forikroder]

I don't subscribe to the whole "Rich-sensei is god of the written word, every last detail is minutely planned out!" school of though that some people seem to, but I also don't believe a professional writer would be so incredibly sloppy. Especially when the "evil fiends were spinning a(n unlikely) story to manipulate an exhausted and desperate V into admitting the real reason for the deal" explanation makes perfect sense. I mean the strip is called The Wrong Reasons for a reason.

aside from the mistake on casting time the plan was perfectly reasonable, if Ressurection was instant and Durkon could quickfire a sending then Vs master would get to the dragon not much later then V did himself

besides its not the first time hes forgotten the cast time of a spell

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html

[Gitman00]

i think its more rich messed up then the fiends were purposely lying to V it wouldnt be the first time he forgot about a spells cast time

No, Rich didn't mess up. The fiends wanted Vaarsuvius to know beyond a doubt that s/he was doing this for selfish reasons, and therefore it was an unambiguously evil act. Remember, V was already going to take the deal even before they gave him/her the alternate plan. They just didn't want V to convince him/herself that s/he was doing a noble thing.

[Forikroder]

No, Rich didn't mess up. The fiends wanted Vaarsuvius to know beyond a doubt that s/he was doing this for selfish reasons, and therefore it was an unambiguously evil act. Remember, V was already going to take the deal even before they gave him/her the alternate plan. They just didn't want V to convince him/herself that s/he was doing a noble thing.

what i was saying is Rich didnt realise that the alternatie plan wouldnt actually work when he wrote it

[Fallbot]

aside from the mistake on casting time the plan was perfectly reasonable, if Ressurection was instant and Durkon could quickfire a sending then Vs master would get to the dragon not much later then V did himself

besides its not the first time hes forgotten the cast time of a spell

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html

Kish and Winter (and probably others) have already gone over the other flaws in the plan in this thread.

I don't think anyone, least of all Rich, denies that he takes liberties with casting times and other rules minutia, but the casting time of Break Enchantment isn't an important plot point that directly contradicts later events. I mean, I guess it might become one later in the comic's run, but for now it's not much of a counterargument.

[Forikroder]

Kish and Winter (and probably others) have already gone over the other flaws in the plan in this thread.

I don't think anyone, least of all Rich, denies that he takes liberties with casting times and other rules minutia, but the casting time of Break Enchantment isn't an important plot point that directly contradicts later events. I mean, I guess it might become one later in the comic's run, but for now it's not much of a counterargument.

Kirsh and winters arguments against it are basically
1) they dont think Vs master would actually do it (although why they seem to think a potentially epic level good wizard whith strong ties to V wouldnt be willing to save innocent people is beyond me)
2) they dont think the Imp would do it
3) they dont think Durkon actually had a scroll of sending

assuming the IFCC actually investigated this alternate plan as much as they must have (as in didnt just completely make it up) 1 and 3 are completely false, Vs master is strong enough to kill an ABD (a fact that V aparently believes since if his master was some weakling then he would ahve isntantly noticed such a glaring hole) and Durkon did have a scroll of sending (perhaps he left it with the fleet when he left)

the only wild care could be 2 but i believe the imp is good enough to pop in, drop off Vs head and get away before getting skewered, especially if he apears high enough up to be out of range plus by doing this favour for V its probable V would let him hang around which is the whole reason he went to the island in the first place

the only reason the plan would fail is becuase Durkon had actually left the fleet days before V made contact with the IFCC (unless he spent a few days in the elf village or took an extremely long time getting to the fleet) so the Imp wouldnt ahve been able to fin durkon and V would ahve remained dead for a long time

if Durkon had been on the ship though even with the 10 minute ressurection cast it might have still been possible for Vs master to interfere in time in fact i think that the IFCC had accounted for the Ressurection cast time since they said "if not before hes killed them then certainly before hes bound there souls" and V managed to get there before the ABD even killed them so he probably had a few more minutes before the ABD got around to killing them

and he probably planned to take his time with that too

[Fallbot]

Kirsh and winters arguments against it are basically
1) they dont think Vs master would actually do it (although why they seem to think a potentially epic level good wizard whith strong ties to V wouldnt be willing to save innocent people is beyond me)
2) they dont think the Imp would do it
3) they dont think Durkon actually had a scroll of sending

assuming the IFCC actually investigated this alternate plan as much as they must have (as in didnt just completely make it up) 1 and 3 are completely false, Vs master is strong enough to kill an ABD (a fact that V aparently believes since if his master was some weakling then he would ahve isntantly noticed such a glaring hole)

We know that V (while trance-deprived and panicked) believed their master was strong enough to clear up their mess, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Aarindarius is really that powerful. Who doesn't want to run to a parental figure when they're in trouble? (We also don't have any particular reason to think s/he's Good aligned as you suggested earlier - his/her pupil certainly isn't). Admittedly we don't know that they're not that powerful, but I don't think we can confidently dismiss the point as 'completely false'.


and Durkon did have a scroll of sending (perhaps he left it with the fleet when he left)

As Kish points out, we don't know that he had the scroll then - if he did, why didn't he use it in strip 733? He may have obtained it later.



the only wild care could be 2 but i believe the imp is good enough to pop in, drop off Vs head and get away before getting skewered, especially if he apears high enough up to be out of range plus by doing this favour for V its probable V would let him hang around which is the whole reason he went to the island in the first place

the only reason the plan would fail is becuase Durkon had actually left the fleet days before V made contact with the IFCC (unless he spent a few days in the elf village or took an extremely long time getting to the fleet) so the Imp wouldnt ahve been able to fin durkon and V would ahve remained dead for a long time

And if they invested as much in the plan as you suggested above, why didn't they know that Durkon had left the fleet? Assuming the plan isn't a silly lie, that's a hole in it big enough to sail the Azurite fleet through.

[Gitman00]

Kirsh and winters arguments against it are basically
1) they dont think Vs master would actually do it (although why they seem to think a potentially epic level good wizard whith strong ties to V wouldnt be willing to save innocent people is beyond me)
2) they dont think the Imp would do it
3) they dont think Durkon actually had a scroll of sending

assuming the IFCC actually investigated this alternate plan as much as they must have (as in didnt just completely make it up) 1 and 3 are completely false, Vs master is strong enough to kill an ABD (a fact that V aparently believes since if his master was some weakling then he would ahve isntantly noticed such a glaring hole) and Durkon did have a scroll of sending (perhaps he left it with the fleet when he left)

the only wild care could be 2 but i believe the imp is good enough to pop in, drop off Vs head and get away before getting skewered, especially if he apears high enough up to be out of range plus by doing this favour for V its probable V would let him hang around which is the whole reason he went to the island in the first place

the only reason the plan would fail is becuase Durkon had actually left the fleet days before V made contact with the IFCC (unless he spent a few days in the elf village or took an extremely long time getting to the fleet) so the Imp wouldnt ahve been able to fin durkon and V would ahve remained dead for a long time

if Durkon had been on the ship though even with the 10 minute ressurection cast it might have still been possible for Vs master to interfere in time in fact i think that the IFCC had accounted for the Ressurection cast time since they said "if not before hes killed them then certainly before hes bound there souls" and V managed to get there before the ABD even killed them so he probably had a few more minutes before the ABD got around to killing them

and he probably planned to take his time with that too

Well, if all the arguments presented by the forumites won't convince you, how about an in-comic source? In #637, Qarr explicitly calls the plan ridiculous, and the archfiends don't contradict him.

So we have numerous logical reasons why the plan would fail, and in-universe confirmation that it's ridiculous. Arguments for the plan's possible success rely on the spells not working the way they have been shown to work elsewhere in the comic, and all the necessary spells being cast nearly instantaneously. V teleported home immediately after the time stop, and it was still almost too late. A few more rounds, max, and it would have been game over.

The plan was a bluff. Nothing more.

[Forikroder]

We know that V (while trance-deprived and panicked) believed their master was strong enough to clear up their mess, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Aarindarius is really that powerful. Who doesn't want to run to a parental figure when they're in trouble? (We also don't have any particular reason to think s/he's Good aligned as you suggested earlier - his/her pupil certainly isn't). Admittedly we don't know that they're not that powerful, but I don't think we can confidently dismiss the point as 'completely false'.

hes obviously a powerful enough wizard to be confartable in teaching and powerful enough that the power hungry V was willing to go to him theres no evidence at all to support that he wouldnt be strong enough to do so so assuming he is makes more sense then isnt, the demonds didnt lie about anything else


As Kish points out, we don't know that he had the scroll then - if he did, why didn't he use it in strip 733? He may have obtained it later.

perhaps he left it with the fleet, its more likely for them to need to quickly get in contact then for durkon

perhaps jsut rule of funnny

perhaps he doesnt deem it important enough yet and wants to try exploring on his own first


And if they invested as much in the plan as you suggested above, why didn't they know that Durkon had left the fleet? Assuming the plan isn't a silly lie, that's a hole in it big enough to sail the Azurite fleet through.

becuase Rich hadnt writ that part yet, he hadnt decided that Durkon and Elan had left the fleet until he had written it so at the time of writing it Durkon and elan hadnt left the fleet


Well, if all the arguments presented by the forumites won't convince you, how about an in-comic source? In #637, Qarr explicitly calls the plan ridiculous, and the archfiends don't contradict him.
Quarr has no idea about any of the parts of the plan, hes never met or possibly even heard of Vs master, has no idea what Durkon has on his person and knows nothing about V either

what makes him a liable source?

and V waant almost too late, the dragon was in no hurry it would be a while still before it got around to killing his family and binding there souls

[Fallbot]

hes obviously a powerful enough wizard to be confartable in teaching and powerful enough that the power hungry V was willing to go to him theres no evidence at all to support that he wouldnt be strong enough to do so so assuming he is makes more sense then isnt, the demonds didnt lie about anything else

V began his/her training when s/he was still a child, and was apprenticed to Aarindarius because s/he was a family friend. A great deal of power isn't necessary for any of that to occur.



perhaps he left it with the fleet, its more likely for them to need to quickly get in contact then for durkon

perhaps jsut rule of funnny

perhaps he doesnt deem it important enough yet and wants to try exploring on his own first


Why leave it on the ship? Who would cast it? (I admit, I don't play 3.5 so I'm fuzzy on the details; from what I gather a paladin would need to be at least 15th level to use a sending scroll?)

Getting in touch with comrades who've been abducted by bounty hunters for unknown reasons seems pretty important.



becuase Rich hadnt writ that part yet, he hadnt decided that Durkon and Elan had left the fleet until he had written it so at the time of writing it Durkon and elan hadnt left the fleet

And here is where we fundamentally disagree. To try to write an epic fantasy story with absolutely no idea where the plot is going in the next ten strips is completely insane. If Rich was really flying by the seat of his pants to such an extent, the comic would be an unreadable mess. He may not plan everything out down to the smallest details, but I'm pretty sure he has gone on record as saying he has at least a basic idea of where the story is going.

[Kish]

the demonds didnt lie about anything else

Again: So I take it you believe that Vaarsuvius really was just the next customer to come up.

Your argument has, at this point, become completely circular: You believe the fiends were honest, and your evidence is that the fiends were honest (and your willingness to deny and ignore all contrary evidence).

[Forikroder]

V began his/her training when s/he was still a child, and was apprenticed to Aarindarius because s/he was a family friend. A great deal of power isn't necessary for any of that to occur.

hes obsessed with obtaining ultimate arcane power, hes not gonna aprrentcie to some 10th level wizard


Why leave it on the ship? Who would cast it? (I admit, I don't play 3.5 so I'm fuzzy on the details; from what I gather a paladin would need to be at least 15th level to use a sending scroll?)

Getting in touch with comrades who've been abducted by bounty hunters for unknown reasons seems pretty important.

Hinjo has cast sending before im pretty sure to give reports tot he OoTS so he must ahve someone high enough to cast sending, i dont think its a very high level spell

and while it is important to get in touch with haley perhaps not so important that its not worth trying to look for himself before using it as a last resort


And here is where we fundamentally disagree. To try to write an epic fantasy story with absolutely no idea where the plot is going in the next ten strips is completely insane. If Rich was really flying by the seat of his pants to such an extent, the comic would be an unreadable mess. He may not plan everything out down to the smallest details, but I'm pretty sure he has gone on record as saying he has at least a basic idea of where the story is going.

ya the basic idea of where the stroy is going, durkons departure from the fleet and ressurection having a cast time are not major plot points

[Kish]

Hinjo has cast sending before im pretty sure to give reports tot he OoTS so he must ahve someone high enough to cast sending, i dont think its a very high level spell
You are as capable of looking up the level of Sending in the SRD as anyone else here. If you wish to base arguments on its level, it would behoove you to do so.

[Fallbot]

hes obsessed with obtaining ultimate arcane power, hes not gonna aprrentcie to some 10th level wizard

When you're 19 (in human years - s/he looks about 5 or so), a 10th level wizard looks pretty impressive. Aarindarius is an honorary Iron Mage, so likely is pretty powerful, but that doesn't necessarily mean s/he is good enough to casually defeat an Ancient Black Dragon with caster levels, without any preparation.



Hinjo has cast sending before im pretty sure to give reports tot he OoTS so he must ahve someone high enough to cast sending, i dont think its a very high level spell

and while it is important to get in touch with haley perhaps not so important that its not worth trying to look for himself before using it as a last resort


I admit I had forgotten that bit. But from the sound of it he has access to multiple castings of sending, which begs the question of why he would need Durkon to leave his scroll in the first place, only to reclaim it for their journey to SandSedge.



ya the basic idea of where the stroy is going, durkons departure from the fleet and ressurection having a cast time are not major plot points

But that is an important plot point, if only because it leads to a major and obvious plot hole if ignored.

We're getting into Occam's razor territory now. Either there's a giant, gaping plot hole caused by Rich being unable to think ahead or look back over his own work, or the fiends - with good reasons outlined previously, and in-comic precedent thanks to Quarr outright calling them on it - are lying.

[Forikroder]

I admit I had forgotten that bit. But from the sound of it he has access to multiple castings of sending, which begs the question of why he would need Durkon to leave his scroll in the first place, only to reclaim it for their journey to SandSedge.

becuase when it somes right down to it, if they can give hinjo a way to bypass sendings casting time (so instead of the sending arriing 10 minutes AFTER Xykon arrives it arrives BEFORE Xykon arrives) then its a good idea

also the likelyhood of the OoTS scoring another scroll of sending is much higher then Hinjo chancing upon one


But that is an important plot point, if only because it leads to a major and obvious plot hole if ignored.

it would only ahve been important if V had refused the deal, he was going to take the deal pretty much no matter what so it doesnt matter if rich overlooked a small detail of the other plan the fiends had that offers no plot relevance at all

the story isnt gonna change because V knew about the existance of a secondary option, rich could have completely cut the second option out and it wouldnt affect the story at all


We're getting into Occam's razor territory now. Either there's a giant, gaping plot hole caused by Rich being unable to think ahead or look back over his own work, or the fiends - with good reasons outlined previously, and in-comic precedent thanks to Quarr outright calling them on it - are lying.

but theyve never lied, its a rather important part of there deal that there being 100% above ground here telling the complete truth

and Quar only called them about lying about them not caring about V, he never said the alternate plan couldnt ahve possibly worked because he doesnt know if Durkon had the scroll

[Gift Jeraff]

Hinjo has cast sending before im pretty sure to give reports tot he OoTS so he must ahve someone high enough to cast sending, i dont think its a very high level spellSending is not a paladin spell, and since Hinjo was not shown with a scroll or magic device of any kind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html), I'm sure that was Hinjo responding to V's sending.

[Forikroder]

Sending is not a paladin spell, and since Hinjo was not shown with a scroll or magic device of any kind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html), I'm sure that was Hinjo responding to V's sending.

i could swear that Hinjo at some point cast a sending to Roy to give him an update about Azure city

[Fallbot]

becuase when it somes right down to it, if they can give hinjo a way to bypass sendings casting time (so instead of the sending arriing 10 minutes AFTER Xykon arrives it arrives BEFORE Xykon arrives) then its a good idea

also the likelyhood of the OoTS scoring another scroll of sending is much higher then Hinjo chancing upon one

Considering Hinjo was planning to liaise between the two gate seeking teams, it sounds like he either has access to multiple scrolls/castings of the spell, or is incapable of casting it himself and will be relying on them contacting him, as seen in the strip Gift Jeraff linked. Either way, he wouldn't need Durkon to leave him a single sending scroll and then take it back later.



it would only ahve been important if V had refused the deal, he was going to take the deal pretty much no matter what so it doesnt matter if rich overlooked a small detail of the other plan the fiends had that offers no plot relevance at all

the story isnt gonna change because V knew about the existance of a secondary option, rich could have completely cut the second option out and it wouldnt affect the story at all

But the existence of a second option, however unlikely, is very important to V's characterization. It's necessary to confirm that he made the deal not out of a need to save his/her family, but out of a pure lust for power. Understanding that is vital to understanding the character and the development s/he is going through. And the second option not working out is still a plot hole, even if it's not the story wrecking-one it would be if V had decided to take it. (Obviously it's only a plot hole if you assume the fiends are telling the truth).



but theyve never lied, its a rather important part of there deal that there being 100% above ground here telling the complete truth

and Quar only called them about lying about them not caring about V, he never said the alternate plan couldnt ahve possibly worked because he doesnt know if Durkon had the scroll

The second option isn't a term of the deal. And as for them being 100% above board - it was them that told us they had to be, which introduces a bit of a paradox. A common forum theory is that they manipulated V into believing they will only take his/her soul after s/he dies while never actually saying as much, leaving them free to seize control of him/her should they wish. They also implied his/her alignment would be affected by the splice when nothing of the sort was occurring.

Qarr describes the plan as 'ridiculous', and they don't correct him. And it is a pretty stupid plan, with multiple failure points, but detailing them would be going in circles at this point.

[Ashadar]

I am surprised that most people on this thread consider that the fiends' reasoning behind giving such a ludicrous and sure to fail plan as an alternative is simply to make V realise she's doing this for the selfish reasons.

Ok.. And?.. Did you bother to go further with this train of thought? Why would they possibly want to risk losing the deal simply to make Vaarsuvius feel bad about herself? They outright stated that they don't need her to willingly help them at the end but it's a possibility she will anyway (50% percent chance she'll do it anyway) and they get their share of soul control anyway so why risk the deal for something so stupid, when this deal is so important?

What if Vaarsuvius, as unpredictable as she was because of the trance depravation and panic actually went for their crazy plan? So much for the deal huh? What would they gain if Vaarsuvius admitted to herself that she was doing this for all the wrong reasons ? I assure you she would have left her family anyway, because she had a duty towards Haley, and she "still had to fix everything" .

There's been a long discussion about the actual motivation of the fiends blurting this impossible plan (because Durkon was NOT on the ship) , and the most logical conclusion I've seen that makes it actually be worth the risk is the fact that admitting her true motivation was selfish would make her too ashamed to admit it to Haley, her good friend and therefore this deal with the fiends would remain a secret. If she actually believed it was her only choice(which it was really) she might have told Haley about it, and Haley could have figured out the "control the soul while you're alive" thing.

[Gift Jeraff]

I am surprised that most people on this thread consider that the fiends' reasoning behind giving such a ludicrous and sure to fail plan as an alternative is simply to make V realise she's doing this for the selfish reasons.From Don't Split the Party:
V is also very adept at using words to confuse the issue, so he/she attempts at first to paint selling her soul as a noble sacrifice. The fiends are having none of that, though. By giving V another option--however ridiculous an option it may seem to us in the comfort of our living rooms with days to calculate the likelihood of success--they destroy V's certainty at his/her own righteousness.

(Note: Yes, he does say "her soul," but he also says "his family" several paragraphs earlier, so...)

[Forikroder]

Considering Hinjo was planning to liaise between the two gate seeking teams, it sounds like he either has access to multiple scrolls/castings of the spell, or is incapable of casting it himself and will be relying on them contacting him, as seen in the strip Gift Jeraff linked. Either way, he wouldn't need Durkon to leave him a single sending scroll and then take it back later.


who said Durkon did take it back? maybe he had multiple or got more


But the existence of a second option, however unlikely, is very important to V's characterization. It's necessary to confirm that he made the deal not out of a need to save his/her family, but out of a pure lust for power. Understanding that is vital to understanding the character and the development s/he is going through. And the second option not working out is still a plot hole, even if it's not the story wrecking-one it would be if V had decided to take it. (Obviously it's only a plot hole if you assume the fiends are telling the truth).

but for that character development it doesnt actually matter if the second plan would have worked, it only matters that V thinks it would work, he believs it would work but chose not to use it thats what important, not either it was a viable option but wether V believed it to be


The second option isn't a term of the deal. And as for them being 100% above board - it was them that told us they had to be, which introduces a bit of a paradox. A common forum theory is that they manipulated V into believing they will only take his/her soul after s/he dies while never actually saying as much, leaving them free to seize control of him/her should they wish. They also implied his/her alignment would be affected by the splice when nothing of the sort was occurring.

but the thing is though, they didnt lie they told V the complete truth in such a way as to manipulate him into taking the deal, they essentially lied without ever lieing

and they never said they had to tell the truth, they chose to


Qarr describes the plan as 'ridiculous', and they don't correct him. And it is a pretty stupid plan, with multiple failure points, but detailing them would be going in circles at this point.

how many times do i have to say it? Quar doesnt know if the plan would ro would not work, the only thing ridiculous is the amount of observation needed to figure out that plan which he called them on


Ok.. And?.. Did you bother to go further with this train of thought? Why would they possibly want to risk losing the deal simply to make Vaarsuvius feel bad about herself? They outright stated that they don't need her to willingly help them at the end but it's a possibility she will anyway (50% percent chance she'll do it anyway) and they get their share of soul control anyway so why risk the deal for something so stupid, when this deal is so important?

perhaps becuase as they said to Quar, they had to prove there aptitude to the higher ups, if they jsut said "yo V touch the red orb for power to save your family" then they didnt corrupt V they just offered him the only possible way to save his family, they wanted V to fall to be corrupted by power and agree to sell his soul for power so they HAD to offer him a second option, there had to be some other way out for V becuase if there wasnt then it doesnt show that there able to tempt mortals more then any of them alone can it only shows that they can find someone in a desperate situation with no way out and give them one

by offering the second deal they made V sell his soul for him, not for his family he didnt sell his soul becuase there was no other way but becuase he refused the other ways

it might have been a gamble (more like betting a D20 doesnt roll a 20 imo) but they had to take it really

[Kish]

Ok.. And?.. Did you bother to go further with this train of thought? Why would they possibly want to risk losing the deal simply to make Vaarsuvius feel bad about herself? They outright stated that they don't need her to willingly help them at the end but it's a possibility she will anyway (50% percent chance she'll do it anyway)

Read again. They state that they have a 50% chance of getting Vaarsuvius' soul for eternity after the Familicide.


and they get their share of soul control anyway so why risk the deal for something so stupid, when this deal is so important?

What if Vaarsuvius, as unpredictable as she was because of the trance depravation and panic actually went for their crazy plan? So much for the deal huh? What would they gain if Vaarsuvius admitted to herself that she was doing this for all the wrong reasons ? I assure you she would have left her family anyway, because she had a duty towards Haley, and she "still had to fix everything" .
You assure us? Odd phrasing.

If Vaarsuvius had believed s/he was accepting the Soul Splice for noble reasons, s/he might have teleported to the ancient black dragon, killed her with one spell, and either teleported the children to a healer, or simply dropped the Soul Splice immediately. They needed him/her to rampage with the power. "I need to fix everything" was a repetition of the decision s/he made when s/he accepted the power for all the wrong reasons: That it wasn't enough for problems to get solved, if Vaarsuvius couldn't say s/he had done it. Without making that decision the first time, s/he would, at least, have been less likely to make it the second.

[Valyrian]

how many times do i have to say it? Quar doesnt know if the plan would ro would not work, the only thing ridiculous is the amount of observation needed to figure out that plan which he called them on
Since he's not only an integral part of their plan, but his role is a literal suicide mission, I think Qarr's opinion on the plan does matter a lot.

[DrBurr]

I think that the temporary ownership of V's soul was is to the IFCC, and that their true motive was to kill off the Draketooth clan so that the Linear Guild+Empire for Blood could seize the gate for themselves

[Forikroder]

Since he's not only an integral part of their plan, but his role is a literal suicide mission, I think Qarr's opinion on the plan does matter a lot.

on wether tis a good or bad plan from his eprspective? perhaps though i think they were exagerating his chances of dieing

on wether the plan could actually work? definently not

[dps]

Getting back to the original point of this thread, I have to disagree with the opening poster. If the fiends could just use additional splices to control V indefinately, they wouldn't have bothered to keep track of how much time each of them had.

[Winter]

what i was saying is Rich didnt realise that the alternatie plan wouldnt actually work when he wrote it

I very, very much doubt that. The plan is outright flawed in so many ways. Given the quality of the comic and how much reflection seems to go into the writing (judging by Rich's comments here in the forum and in the books) it seems unlikely he'd make such a major screwup in such an important scene.

Someone who'd overlook this would never been able to write a comic as this. Therfore, I think you theory cannot hold any water at all.

edit: Yes, and the above quote from DStP.

[Kish]

what i was saying is Rich didnt realise that the alternatie plan wouldnt actually work when he wrote it
Based on what?

Do you have a single scrap of evidence that doesn't amount to, "I say so"?

[Stormlock]

I'd just like to throw 2cp out there regarding Aarindius vs the ABD: V didn't know, at the time, that the ABD would be able to recast AMF. While a ABD in an AMF is certainly a ****ing death sentence for anything short of an epic wizard, (and even a lot of epic wizards frankly, given a surprise round or unfortunate spell selection) and ABD, even with sorceror levels, isn't really beyond the ken of a decent wizard. Heck, Varsuvius could probably have handled the ABD if it weren't for the AMF. Forcecage buys enough time to memorize a whole new set of spells and has convenient holes for pouring boiling oil or throwing rocks, arrows, or muffins until you score enough crits. Or, you know, doing something completely overkill like casting level 1 spells.

On another note (maybe this deserves it's own thread or has one, I don't lurk here enough to have seen one if there is) I wonder about whether V holding onto the splice after rescuing his family was a good thing or not? I mean, we don't know how long the fiends needed control for, but I'd guess they were going to have enough time even if V stopped right then. While they certainly didn't lose out having V do the other stuff since they don't care about Xykon, I also kind of doubt that the extra time V incurred would have been used to do anything that could outweigh rescuing the Azurites or even the horribly botched attack on Xykon. And V had already done pretty much everything evil at that point already; everything past that was more redeeming than anything. Presumably V is going to betray the OotS and fiddle with the snarl at some opportune moment; once that is done what could they possibly use him for? Defile their corpses? Kick Mr. Scruffy?

[Valyrian]

on wether tis a good or bad plan from his eprspective? perhaps though i think they were exagerating his chances of dieing

on wether the plan could actually work? definently not
Since Qarr's "ridiculous" could easily be understood as "I'll never put myself in harm's way for that elf anyway", definitely yes.

[Kish]

I'd just like to throw 2cp out there regarding Aarindius vs the ABD: V didn't know, at the time, that the ABD would be able to recast AMF.

Dragons cast as sorcerers. Most likely, she took sorcerer levels which Rich ruled stacked with her existing caster levels; taking wizard levels would instead have made her effectively a multiclassed sorcerer/wizard, unless Rich ruled that she could effectively "retrain" her dragon spellcasting into wizard spellcasting...but most likely, Vaarsuvius knew, if s/he thought about it at all, that casting Anti-Magic Field once denoted a sorcerer level high enough to cast at least three Anti-Magic Fields per day.


While a ABD in an AMF is certainly a ****ing death sentence for anything short of an epic wizard, (and even a lot of epic wizards frankly, given a surprise round or unfortunate spell selection) and ABD, even with sorceror levels, isn't really beyond the ken of a decent wizard. Heck, Varsuvius could probably have handled the ABD if it weren't for the AMF. Forcecage buys enough time to memorize a whole new set of spells and has convenient holes for pouring boiling oil or throwing rocks, arrows, or muffins until you score enough crits. Or, you know, doing something completely overkill like casting level 1 spells.

Spells can get through the bars of a Forcecage; so can acid breath. It would be very unwise for Vaarsuvius to stay within breath range of even a trapped dragon.


On another note (maybe this deserves it's own thread or has one, I don't lurk here enough to have seen one if there is) I wonder about whether V holding onto the splice after rescuing his family was a good thing or not? I mean, we don't know how long the fiends needed control for, but I'd guess they were going to have enough time even if V stopped right then. While they certainly didn't lose out having V do the other stuff since they don't care about Xykon,

Actually, they actively wanted Xykon knocked out of his comfort zone so that he'd get moving, remember?

[MReav]

V didn't know, at the time, that the ABD would be able to recast AMF.

V knew she was a sorceress, and therefore able to recast any spell she knew unless she ran out of them, and even then she could use higher-level slots to cast the spell.

edit: ninja'd


Varsuvius could probably have handled the ABD if it weren't for the AMF. Forcecage buys enough time to memorize a whole new set of spells and has convenient holes for pouring boiling oil or throwing rocks, arrows, or muffins until you score enough crits. Or, you know, doing something completely overkill like casting level 1 spells.

And the dragon with Greater Teleport would have just stood there inside the cage and not done anything in the interim?

edit: still relevant.

[Forikroder]

Based on what?

Do you have a single scrap of evidence that doesn't amount to, "I say so"?

because the only actual flaw in the plan is that Durkon had left the boat already but that was only learned several strips later

if Durkon had been on the boat then there isnt a flaw in the plan

and since the only thing important about the alternate plan is it was presented to V and rejected its not surprising that Rich pretty mcuh forgot about it as soon as he wrote it becuase aside from the chapter it apeared in it wasnt neccesary for anyone to ever remember it again

[Fallbot]

who said Durkon did take it back? maybe he had multiple or got more

I'm sorry but I've completely lost track of what you're arguing here. You're saying Durkon had multiple scrolls of sending at the time of the deal, left them on the ship for no particular reason (you didn't dispute my argument that Hinjo doesn't need these theoretical scrolls) when he went to meet with Haley, and then picked up another one in time for strip 834? Wouldn't it be simpler to just assume he didn't have one at the time?



but for that character development it doesnt actually matter if the second plan would have worked, it only matters that V thinks it would work, he believs it would work but chose not to use it thats what important, not either it was a viable option but wether V believed it to be


But...but isn't that what we've all been saying? The point is that the plan wouldn't work. Again it comes down to whether Rich intended the fiends to be lying or whether he messed up and left a stupid plot hole. And considering he outright describes the plan as seeming ridiculous to anyone with time to calculate the likelihood of success in the commentary posted above, it seems likely it was intentional.



but the thing is though, they didnt lie they told V the complete truth in such a way as to manipulate him into taking the deal, they essentially lied without ever lieing

and they never said they had to tell the truth, they chose to


Well if you accept that they don't have to tell the truth and it's a choice on their part then it's not 'a rather important part of there deal that there being 100% above ground here telling the complete truth'. So there's nothing to stop them choosing to lie here.



how many times do i have to say it? Quar doesnt know if the plan would ro would not work, the only thing ridiculous is the amount of observation needed to figure out that plan which he called them on


From the context it sounds more like he is describing the plan itself as ridiculous rather than their story that they hadn't researched it. And this reading is supported by Rich using the exact same word to describe the plan in the commentary.



because the only actual flaw in the plan is that Durkon had left the boat already but that was only learned several strips later

if Durkon had been on the boat then there isnt a flaw in the plan

and since the only thing important about the alternate plan is it was presented to V and rejected its not surprising that Rich pretty mcuh forgot about it as soon as he wrote it becuase aside from the chapter it apeared in it wasnt neccesary for anyone to ever remember it again


Well that and the casting time of resurrection (by which I mean the only other flaw you acknowledge).

So your argument boils down to "the plan isn't flawed except for the bits that are flawed, and those are caused by the writer being unable to remember his own continuity"? Is that really the best explanation?

[Forikroder]

I'm sorry but I've completely lost track of what you're arguing here. You're saying Durkon had multiple scrolls of sending at the time of the deal, left them on the ship for no particular reason (you didn't dispute my argument that Hinjo doesn't need these theoretical scrolls) when he went to meet with Haley, and then picked up another one in time for strip 834? Wouldn't it be simpler to just assume he didn't have one at the time?

Hinjo is acting of there warning system if they can make hinjos warning arrive 10 minutes earlier then all the better for them, especially if there at the gate

like i said its the difference between Hinjos warning arriving while there fighting Xykon and arriving before they have to fight Xykon


and i said its POSSIBLE he had multiple scrolls, jsut like its POSSIBLE he left his scroll with the fleet and obtained a new one later or POSSIBLE that he has never faced a situation important enough to use the scroll



But...but isn't that what we've all been saying? The point is that the plan wouldn't work. Again it comes down to whether Rich intended the fiends to be lying or whether he messed up and left a stupid plot hole. And considering he outright describes the plan as seeming ridiculous to anyone with time to calculate the likelihood of success in the commentary posted above, it seems likely it was intentional.

wether the plan could actually work is secondary to its existance, as long as an alternate plan exists then V sold his soul for all the wrong reason since the actual validity of the plan is secondary its not surprising the giant didnt go over the following strips with a fine toothed comb to ensure that he didnt contradict it

and any plan that involves killing yourself to have an imp carry your head to your allies to be ressurected is pretty mcuh the definition of ridiculous, but jsut becuase its rediculous doesnt mean it wouldnt ahve worked


Well if you accept that they don't have to tell the truth and it's a choice on their part then it's not 'a rather important part of there deal that there being 100% above ground here telling the complete truth'. So there's nothing to stop them choosing to lie here.

they could have lied, but taht would be the very first and only lie the ever told V, and theres no evidence that it really was a lie they could ahve stopped watching the boats after V left and focused on V to make sure they can react quickly to any unkown situations


From the context it sounds more like he is describing the plan itself as ridiculous rather than their story that they hadn't researched it. And this reading is supported by Rich using the exact same word to describe the plan in the commentary.

Quarr has no idea if the plan could ahve worked or not because he had no knowledge at all of the power of Vs allies, its not even certain he knew which one was Durkon he never showed much initiative in learnign humans names before


Well that and the casting time of resurrection (by which I mean the only other flaw you acknowledge).

So your argument boils down to "the plan isn't flawed except for the bits that are flawed, and those are caused by the writer being unable to remember his own continuity"? Is that really the best explanation?

i think even couting in the casting time of ressurection Vs master would have arrived in time to scare off the ABD before she had time to bind there souls and escape

besides its not like OoTS would be the first comic with continuity problems, theres a few mangas who mess up and post something later in the series that completely contradicts stuff put in earlier its a pretty common occurence and one of the problems doing comics in this fasion (releasing small parts instead of writing the whole thing at once)

[Math_Mage]

The important thing isn't whether or not the alternate plan would have worked, because the IFCC didn't want V to follow the alternate plan anyway. The important thing is that the IFCC presented that plan to strip away V's pretense that he was doing this because he had no other choice to save his family, and force V to accept that he was doing it for the power. I'd like to hypothesize that this made V more likely to use his power for things other than saving his family, but that's not a necessary conclusion for the purposes of this argument.

[Valyrian]

they could have lied, but taht would be the very first and only lie the ever told V, and theres no evidence that it really was a lie they could ahve stopped watching the boats after V left and focused on V to make sure they can react quickly to any unkown situations
Except when they tell V that he's just the next customer to come along, I suppose?


besides its not like OoTS would be the first comic with continuity problems, theres a few mangas who mess up and post something later in the series that completely contradicts stuff put in earlier its a pretty common occurence and one of the problems doing comics in this fasion (releasing small parts instead of writing the whole thing at once)
Except that there are no continuity errors besides those that you invent to justify your little pet theory.

As the Giant once said himself, it's not a continuity error if there's a reasonable interpretation of in-comic events that explains what happened. And in this case, it's clearly simpler than your version of the story: the fiends simply lied.

[Forikroder]

Except when they tell V that he's just the next customer to come along, I suppose?

he was the next customer to come along, after the last customer came the next one to come was V making him the next customer to come along


Except that there are no continuity errors besides those that you invent to justify your little pet theory.

As the Giant once said himself, it's not a continuity error if there's a reasonable interpretation of in-comic events that explains what happened. And in this case, it's clearly simpler than your version of the story: the fiends simply lied.

id say its even more simpler that as soon as V left the boat they stopped caring about the boats at all

they had there alternate plan they had no more reason to pay attention to the boats if V wasnt on it

[Morithias]

I feel like that would be, as the Riddler might put it, "grand-scale cheating". If you could magically compel someone to participate in a Faustian pact, the idea of diabolical (or demonic) temptation would be meaningless. That is, if they can do that (force Vaarsuvius to accept a second, unrelated contract as part of the terms of the first contract), what's to stop them from just deciding that Vaarsuvius has to be their slave for all eternity?

I believe that the "soul-splice" deal has run its course. If they want to extend the time of V's servitude beyond what she has already consented to as a result of the first deal, they have to make her a new deal. They can't just force her to sign another pact.

(Besides, if they could just straight-up force V to agree to a new splice in order to prolong with her servitude, why bother with Vaarsuvius at all? They could theoretically do that to anyone, at any time. They could even find some demon cultist somewhere who would gladly cooperate with them for all eternity, without the need for any trickery.)

Actually according to the fiendish codex 2, a devil CAN force you to sign a deal via mind control or duress. It just wouldn't be legal and you could call them out on it.

However here's the thing...you then need to go through the court process and prove they did it. And the three checks you do in order to find that are diplomacy, knowledge (planes), and perform (acting).

And let's face it, V has no diplomacy or acting skills worth ****.

So yes, to be blunt, I'd say he/she is screwed. All the better, an arrogant prideful jerk such as his/herself deserves the eternal torment.

[Forikroder]

Actually according to the fiendish codex 2, a devil CAN force you to sign a deal via mind control or duress. It just wouldn't be legal and you could call them out on it.

However here's the thing...you then need to go through the court process and prove they did it. And the three checks you do in order to find that are diplomacy, knowledge (planes), and perform (acting).

And let's face it, V has no diplomacy or acting skills worth ****.

So yes, to be blunt, I'd say he/she is screwed. All the better, an arrogant prideful jerk such as his/herself deserves the eternal torment.

if the IFCC wanted to do that they would ahve done it already assuming they can (which is a big IF)

[tassaron]

V seemed to be totally fine with the idea of selling her soul for all eternity, and the fiends insisted on the current arrangement. It seems like it would have been a pointless detail to include if they were just going to use their deal to get her soul for eternity anyway.

[Kish]

From the context it sounds more like he is describing the plan itself as ridiculous rather than their story that they hadn't researched it.
No "sounds" to it, he calls it a ridiculous alternate plan.

[Forikroder]

No "sounds" to it, he calls it a ridiculous alternate plan.

ridiculous is a very multi-purpose word, if every day to enter my home i climbed a grappling hook up to my roof then rapelled down the chimney instead of jsut opening the front door that would be pretty ridiculous

calling something ridiculous is not the same as calling it impossible or undoable or inconceivable

[Kish]

I could have sworn I asked you if you had a scrap of evidence for what you're claiming.

No? I must not have, you wouldn't have just ignored it to continue asserting that the fiends told the truth because you say so.

[Forikroder]

I could have sworn I asked you if you had a scrap of evidence for what you're claiming.

No? I must not have, you wouldn't have just ignored it to continue asserting that the fiends told the truth because you say so.

yes you did ask, and then i answered it and then you ignored my answer and started going of on other points

[Kish]

yes you did ask, and then i answered it and then you ignored my answer and started going of on other points
No. You quoted my asking you if you had a scrap of evidence for it, for some reason, but you didn't answer that question. You answered a question which no one had asked about whether you recognized the existence of proof against what you're arguing, instead. "The only evidence against my argument is..."...even if it happened to be true...would not constitute evidence for.

[Forikroder]

No. You quoted my asking you if you had a scrap of evidence for it, for some reason, but you didn't answer that question. You answered a question which no one had asked about whether you recognized the existence of proof against what you're arguing, instead. "The only evidence against my argument is..."...even if it happened to be true...would not constitute evidence for.

do you have any evidence that the IFCC knew that Durkon had left the boat?

pretty much every internet debate lies around trying to figure out things where no evidence exists, the whole reason were arguing is we have no idea the true story behind what was intended or what rich was thinking at the time so were trying to use our own opinions to convince others

you have no proof that the IFCC was lieing and i have no proof they werent, if there was evidence then we wouldnt be arguing in the first place

[Marlowe]

Begging the question of why you're so set in your opinions when you have nothing to back them up.

[Forikroder]

Begging the question of why you're so set in your opinions when you have nothing to back them up.

which begs the question why people bother arguing on the internet in the first place

does there need to be any more complex a reason then "i think im right and i think hes wrong"?

[Marlowe]

Forikroder, please stop. You're just sticking a giant "IGNORE ME FOREVER" button upon yourself.

[Another_Poet]

They could, in effect, control V indefinitely.

I think the best counterpoint to this is the fact that they don't control V presently. Because really, if they could just take her over forever, why would they wait?

[Fallbot]

Hinjo is acting of there warning system if they can make hinjos warning arrive 10 minutes earlier then all the better for them, especially if there at the gate

like i said its the difference between Hinjos warning arriving while there fighting Xykon and arriving before they have to fight Xykon


and i said its POSSIBLE he had multiple scrolls, jsut like its POSSIBLE he left his scroll with the fleet and obtained a new one later or POSSIBLE that he has never faced a situation important enough to use the scroll


I've already explained why Hinjo would not need Durkon's scrolls to warn them, and you have not refuted my argument.



wether the plan could actually work is secondary to its existance, as long as an alternate plan exists then V sold his soul for all the wrong reason since the actual validity of the plan is secondary its not surprising the giant didnt go over the following strips with a fine toothed comb to ensure that he didnt contradict it

and any plan that involves killing yourself to have an imp carry your head to your allies to be ressurected is pretty mcuh the definition of ridiculous, but jsut becuase its rediculous doesnt mean it wouldnt ahve worked


He doesn't need a fine toothed comb. There are numerous obvious problems with it, including Quarr's assumed cooperation, resurrection's casting time, the supposed presence of the sending spell, Aarindarius' ability to help (I notice you've dropped that argument) and Durkon's presence on the fleet. The plan is ridiculous and unworkable, and you have yet to convince me that any of these failure points are not in fact an issue.



they could have lied, but taht would be the very first and only lie the ever told V, and theres no evidence that it really was a lie they could ahve stopped watching the boats after V left and focused on V to make sure they can react quickly to any unkown situations


Like Valyrian said, they lied about him/her being the next customer to come along. And "he was the next customer to come along, after the last customer came the next one to come was V making him the next customer to come along" can't be true - they're newly established. Unless that was the lie.




Quarr has no idea if the plan could ahve worked or not because he had no knowledge at all of the power of Vs allies, its not even certain he knew which one was Durkon he never showed much initiative in learnign humans names before


Good think Durkon's a dwarf then! But seriously, he spent months charming monsters to attack them and spying on them for Kubota. I think he had a decent idea of their capabilities and resources.



i think even couting in the casting time of ressurection Vs master would have arrived in time to scare off the ABD before she had time to bind there souls and escape


Well I don't. Even ignoring all the other problems inherent in involving V's master, I don't think Inky and the kids had 10 minutes left.



besides its not like OoTS would be the first comic with continuity problems, theres a few mangas who mess up and post something later in the series that completely contradicts stuff put in earlier its a pretty common occurence and one of the problems doing comics in this fasion (releasing small parts instead of writing the whole thing at once)

And the comic does have continuity problems, no one is denying that. Off the top of my head, Durkon's age is one. But here you're needlessly introducing one when there's already a perfectly good explanation, for reasons I don't understand.

[Valyrian]

he was the next customer to come along, after the last customer came the next one to come was V making him the next customer to come along
I suggest you reread this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).


id say its even more simpler that as soon as V left the boat they stopped caring about the boats at all

they had there alternate plan they had no more reason to pay attention to the boats if V wasnt on it
Now is it a continuity error, or isn't it? I have the feeling you change your arguments whenever it's convenient.

[Kish]

you have no proof that the IFCC was lieing and i have no proof they werent, if there was evidence then we wouldnt be arguing in the first place
No, see, the fact that you looked at the mountain of evidence that they were lying and declared you would only acknowledge a little of it exists doesn't actually mean there is no evidence.

But the fact that you think "debate" has nothing to do with evidence and is done by shouting back and forth, "I'm right, you're wrong!" is fascinating. Really.

[Winter]

do you have any evidence that the IFCC knew that Durkon had left the boat?

Again, you dodged the question. You were asked to provide evidence for your point but answered with a question to that. The question you answered with, on top of everything else, has no relevancy at all to what was initially discussed. What we were discussing here has nothing to do at all with what the IFCC knew or not.

As a reminder you are still to provide evidence for this (and no, what you just asked to dodge Kish's request for evidence here has nothing to do with this):

what i was saying is Rich didnt realise that the alternatie plan wouldnt actually work when he wrote it

Lacking evidence, I'm also content if you provide some reasining that opens this option as possibility (when we have a lot of reason to assume it's a wrong proposition as was outlined far above).

[lio45]

because the only actual flaw in the plan is that Durkon had left the boat already but that was only learned several strips later

if Durkon had been on the boat then there isnt a flaw in the plan


Uh, no. There are still two HUGE flaws in the plan.


1) Qarr is extremely likely to say "screw this, I'd rather not die." (Especially annoying if he does so AFTER V's killed himself, instead of before.)


2) Resurrection casting time.

[Winter]

3) Aarindarius' availablity and his ability (permanent as well as temporary) and will to defeat the dragon within the given time.

[Cavenskull]

he was the next customer to come along, after the last customer came the next one to come was V making him the next customer to come along
Considering that the imp was surprised to see the IFCC, and they specifically said that they had received special permission to intercede, and the IFCC later admitted to the imp that they expected Vaarsuvius to attack Xykon. Furthermore, they admitted that they wanted Vaarsuvius because of the gates. Vaarsuvius was most definitely not just "the next customer to come along".


id say its even more simpler that as soon as V left the boat they stopped caring about the boats at all

they had there alternate plan they had no more reason to pay attention to the boats if V wasnt on it
Well, then that presents another problem. How can they call it a reasonable plan when they can't be sure of the dwarf's whereabouts, nor can they be sure that he still has the scroll available? They can't be sure Durkon will have diamonds for a resurrection, and they can't be sure he'd use a scroll to potentially bypass any material component requirements. In fact, Durkon didn't use a scroll to resurrect Roy, so the IFCC couldn't honestly say that there would be no casting time concerns. The IFCC also couldn't honestly say that Vaarsuvius' would be able to find the dragon. What if the dragon teleported Vaarsuvius' family to some other location to toy with? Or what if the dragon actually killed them reasonably quickly? Courtesy of the time stop, Vaarsuvius was hot on the heels of the dragon, yet it had already demolished the family home and maimed Vaarsuvius' spouse and children. There is no guarantee whatsoever that the dragon would take more than ten minutes to eat its food--even deliberately eating slowly, especially given the small portions.

And one last point: Any plan in which Step One is "commit suicide" can safely be called ridiculous, especially when the rest of the plan requires the assistance of beings of pure evil.

[Forikroder]

Forikroder, please stop. You're just sticking a giant "IGNORE ME FOREVER" button upon yourself.

then ignore me


I've already explained why Hinjo would not need Durkon's scrolls to warn them, and you have not refuted my argument.

because with the scroll that Hinjo has no ability to obain on his own, he can warn them 10 minutes sooner then without it


He doesn't need a fine toothed comb. There are numerous obvious problems with it, including Quarr's assumed cooperation, resurrection's casting time, the supposed presence of the sending spell, Aarindarius' ability to help (I notice you've dropped that argument) and Durkon's presence on the fleet. The plan is ridiculous and unworkable, and you have yet to convince me that any of these failure points are not in fact an issue.

V got there with plenty of time to spare, im quite confident even if he arrived 10 minutes later he would have been in time to prevent the ABD from escaping

Quarr is capable enough to not teleport right on top of a paladins weapon so hed be able to quite easily drop off the head and escape uncscathed and the plan is pretty profitable to him as well

as for Durkon having a sending scroll and AArindarius's ability to actually beat the ABD we have no evidence to the contrary since we have no proof they cant do as the fiends said theres no reason to just assume they cant perform there side

so the only flaw is an easily missable tiny little flaw that Durkon had left the boats a couple days before V sold his soul, but most likely the fiends hadnt known that becuase they didnt care about Durkon or the boats once V had left so its unlikely they kept clsoe surveilance on them


Like Valyrian said, they lied about him/her being the next customer to come along. And "he was the next customer to come along, after the last customer came the next one to come was V making him the next customer to come along" can't be true - they're newly established. Unless that was the lie.

V was the next customer who came alon, there was someone before him to sold there soul (though not neccesarily to the IFCC) and the next customer was V

just becuase they were waiting for him doesnt stop him from being the next customer


Good think Durkon's a dwarf then! But seriously, he spent months charming monsters to attack them and spying on them for Kubota. I think he had a decent idea of their capabilities and resources.

he charmed monsters and pointed them in the right direction he never even once uses any of there names aside from Therkla Kabuto and Varuvious


Well I don't. Even ignoring all the other problems inherent in involving V's master, I don't think Inky and the kids had 10 minutes left.

the ABD didnt even consider the fact that someone might try to interfere, obviously not at all interested in effeciency since she could ahve had it all done before V even got started on the soul selling the ABD obviously meant to gloat over the elves and let them know jsut why they were about to die before killing them slowly then probably some more gloating and monologuing before finally binding then souls

then she might even have taken the time to burn down the village some before finally disapearing

i see no evidence in the ABDs actions that he was going to finish anytime soon at all


I suggest you reread this strip.

logic dictates that V was not the first person to ever sell his soul, therefore he is the next customer


Now is it a continuity error, or isn't it? I have the feeling you change your arguments whenever it's convenient.

i think of it more as thinking more on the issue as time passes and finding more options


What we were discussing here has nothing to do at all with what the IFCC knew or not.

it has everything to do with it, you people are trying to argue the IFCC knew that the plan couldnt possibly work and lied to V and im arguing they werent lieing


1) Qarr is extremely likely to say "screw this, I'd rather not die." (Especially annoying if he does so AFTER V's killed himself, instead of before.)

unless he teleported 2 inchs above leins spear he had a 99% chance of getting out of the boat alive


Well, then that presents another problem. How can they call it a reasonable plan when they can't be sure of the dwarf's whereabouts, nor can they be sure that he still has the scroll available? They can't be sure Durkon will have diamonds for a resurrection, and they can't be sure he'd use a scroll to potentially bypass any material component requirements. In fact, Durkon didn't use a scroll to resurrect Roy, so the IFCC couldn't honestly say that there would be no casting time concerns. The IFCC also couldn't honestly say that Vaarsuvius' would be able to find the dragon. What if the dragon teleported Vaarsuvius' family to some other location to toy with? Or what if the dragon actually killed them reasonably quickly? Courtesy of the time stop, Vaarsuvius was hot on the heels of the dragon, yet it had already demolished the family home and maimed Vaarsuvius' spouse and children. There is no guarantee whatsoever that the dragon would take more than ten minutes to eat its food--even deliberately eating slowly, especially given the small portions.

And one last point: Any plan in which Step One is "commit suicide" can safely be called ridiculous, especially when the rest of the plan requires the assistance of beings of pure evil.

every plan has some sort of flaw, even Varusvious's plan to sell his soul and take out the ABD has much of the flaws that having master handle it does

the ABD could still have just killed them and binded there souls fast and then run
the ABD could have just eaten then run and soul binded them later

both having master kill the dragon and having varsuvious do it himself pretty much hinged on the ABD taking her sweet time about it and being completely off her guard

[MReav]

At some point I'm hoping Rich intercedes and shoots this aspect of the discussion down.

[Marlowe]

EDIT: I'm sorry, it just isn't worth it.

[Winter]

logic dictates that V was not the first person to ever sell his soul, therefore he is the next customer

Seriously? I mean, seriously? The IFCC explicitly states they lied to Vaarsuvius about being "just the next customer" who "by pure chance" get this "once in the lifetime of the universe deal".

... on the other hand, I think you just proofed it's not worth going on with this discussion.

[Fallbot]

because with the scroll that Hinjo has no ability to obain on his own, he can warn them 10 minutes sooner then without it


Since that has nothing to do with refuting my argument, I'm just going to drop this line of discussion. If only I could drop this entire debate. I wish I knew how to quit you...



V got there with plenty of time to spare, im quite confident even if he arrived 10 minutes later he would have been in time to prevent the ABD from escaping




It will only take a few minutes.




Quarr is capable enough to not teleport right on top of a paladins weapon so hed be able to quite easily drop off the head and escape uncscathed and the plan is pretty profitable to him as well


The paladins would probably be on the lookout for him and maybe even have made preparations to capture him if he reappeared - before latching on to V, Quarr even says he plans to sneak back onto the ship so it would be reasonable for them to have done so. And risking destruction for the possibility of maybe a favour at some point, who knows doesn't seem all that profitable.



as for Durkon having a sending scroll and AArindarius's ability to actually beat the ABD we have no evidence to the contrary since we have no proof they cant do as the fiends said theres no reason to just assume they cant perform there side

so the only flaw is an easily missable tiny little flaw that Durkon had left the boats a couple days before V sold his soul, but most likely the fiends hadnt known that becuase they didnt care about Durkon or the boats once V had left so its unlikely they kept clsoe surveilance on them


We can't prove or disprove those things, but the sum of unlikely contrivances is greater than its parts. There are so many unknowns and outright flaws in the plan that it's reasonable (for me and what appears to be most of the other posters in this thread) to assume it's a load of rubbish.

And Durkon leaving is not an easily missable tiny little flaw. It sinks the whole plan. And you've changed your story again. Now the casting time of resurrection isn't a problem, and Durkon being missing is the fiends not doing their research and not Rich. And if you want to argue that the plan is unlikely and poorly researched on their part as opposed to an outright lie then hey! That's OK! It could well be! But that's a completely separate debate, and not one I'm inclined to get involved in. What I object to is this strange insistence that it's all caused by plot holes.



V was the next customer who came alon, there was someone before him to sold there soul (though not neccesarily to the IFCC) and the next customer was V

just becuase they were waiting for him doesnt stop him from being the next customer


I think you missed my point. They are newly established. With precludes having previous customers.



he charmed monsters and pointed them in the right direction he never even once uses any of there names aside from Therkla Kabuto and Varuvious


I don't think he ever used the name "Varuvious". Anyway, I don't want to go through every strip of the Therkla arc to argue a point tangential to the matter at hand, but just from the conversation on the island, Quarr apparently has an idea of what level V is, which suggests he would also have an idea as to the power level of the other members of the fleet.



the ABD didnt even consider the fact that someone might try to interfere, obviously not at all interested in effeciency since she could ahve had it all done before V even got started on the soul selling the ABD obviously meant to gloat over the elves and let them know jsut why they were about to die before killing them slowly then probably some more gloating and monologuing before finally binding then souls

then she might even have taken the time to burn down the village some before finally disapearing

i see no evidence in the ABDs actions that he was going to finish anytime soon at all


See above. Yes, it's flimsy and may be a figure of speech, but it has more substance than "well, I guess she might want to burn down the village or something..."


At some point I'm hoping Rich intercedes and shoots this aspect of the discussion down.

Considering we've already had commentary posted that outright calls the plan ridiculous and unlikely and it hasn't impacted, Forikroder would probably claim he was just lying to cover his tracks.

[Forikroder]

The paladins would probably be on the lookout for him and maybe even have made preparations to capture him if he reappeared - before latching on to V, Quarr even says he plans to sneak back onto the ship so it would be reasonable for them to have done so. And risking destruction for the possibility of maybe a favour at some point, who knows doesn't seem all that profitable.

unless the paladins recently multiclassed ranger or wizard they have no way of killing or capturing quar if he just apread 20 feet above the boat

and unless theres a palding right where he apears in complete readiness to attack and high enough level to hit Quar and kill him in one round, Quarr can easily drop the head and escape

the odds of him dieing is around 1%


We can't prove or disprove those things, but the sum of unlikely contrivances is greater than its parts. There are so many unknowns and outright flaws in the plan that it's reasonable (for me and what appears to be most of the other posters in this thread) to assume it's a load of rubbish.

And Durkon leaving is not an easily missable tiny little flaw. It sinks the whole plan. And you've changed your story again. Now the casting time of resurrection isn't a problem, and Durkon being missing is the fiends not doing their research and not Rich. And if you want to argue that the plan is unlikely and poorly researched on their part as opposed to an outright lie then hey! That's OK! It could well be! But that's a completely separate debate, and not one I'm inclined to get involved in. What I object to is this strange insistence that it's all caused by plot holes.

im still leaning towards its jsut a small oversight by Rich, but honestly it does make sense that the Fiends only had that other plan becuase they were looking at the entire order (and possibly other individuals like Roys sister) who they reasonably thought would go after Xykon if granted large sums of power, and then they started focusing completely on V as the most likely to be put in the position where they could offer him power

some in comic evidence that the plan wasnt quite as heavily researched as you seem to think was the delivery, when the first fiend said that Vs assertion that it was the only way was not true the other fiends were confused so obviously this wasnt a script they were following

the following converstaion also sounds like the plan was pretty mcuh made up on the spot as they thought about and took the knowledge they gained through there observation

its highly probable that the plan was a spur of the moment concocted by the fiends in order to push V that much further into the deep end of the alignment pool


I think you missed my point. They are newly established. With precludes having previous customers.

they never said V was THERE next customer jsut that he was the next customer to come to teh bussiness known as selling your soul


I don't think he ever used the name "Varuvious". Anyway, I don't want to go through every strip of the Therkla arc to argue a point tangential to the matter at hand, but just from the conversation on the island, Quarr apparently has an idea of what level V is, which suggests he would also have an idea as to the power level of the other members of the fleet.

except he knew Vs power since he got a good view of V taking down his giant friend, the rest of the party did practically no fighting at all in areas Quarr was specifically watching them he didnt even really see V take down the demon he jsut learned that it was V and knew he must be high level to ahve pulled it off


See above. Yes, it's flimsy and may be a figure of speech, but it has more substance than "well, I guess she might want to burn down the village or something..."

even if V had waited 10 minutes he would have been there in time to stop the ABD from escaping to a different plane


Considering we've already had commentary posted that outright calls the plan ridiculous and unlikely and it hasn't impacted, Forikroder would probably claim he was just lying to cover his tracks.

Quarrs opinion on the plan holds no water since he has no idea at all about the level of Vs master, the possesions of durkon or how long the ABD would take to have her fun

if one of the fiends had call the plan ridiculous and sure to fial that would be different


ri·dic·u·lous   [ri-dik-yuh-luhs] Show IPA
adjective
causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable: a ridiculous plan.

note that the definition of Rediculous does not include being completely impossible or guranteed to fail

[Gnome Alone]

1) The IFCC counted on Vaarsuvius not making the distinction between "Lawful" and "robot." If the imp had actually been presented with a plan which involved his death, he would likely have said, "No way, and no I don't care that I said I'd help you!"
2) Resurrection has a ten-minute casting time. Would you like to guess how much would have been left of Vaarsuvius' family in ten minutes?
3) Durkon may, or may not, actually have a scroll of Sending. I do, however, note that after he used up all four Sending spells he'd prepared talking to Roy, he scrapped his plan to Send to Haley, Vaarsuvius and Elan, rather than pulling out a scroll to do it with.
That enough to be going on with?

Oh wow, I forgot about posting this till today. Why yes, that is enough. I, at least, am convinced. For some, apparently a signed affidavit from the author notarized by the gods themselves would not be enough.

[Toy Killer]

Lets believe the IFCC weren't lying, Because, You know, Demons, Devils and Daemons are such trustworthy folk...:smalltongue: