Atypical Necromancer? (Looking for something new to get my Necromancy fix...)

[Giegue]

I like Necromancy. I really like Necromancy. However, playing a DN or cleric over and over again can get, tireing, and thus I am looking for a more exotic "necromancer" type character to play but am having issues. I considered Necrocarnum at first, but then heard terrible things about that PrC so decided to eschew that idea. However, I am finding that beyond Necrocarnum there are very few options other then the old trio of cleric, wizard DN for a "Necromancer" character, however, I know there are obscure classes both WOC and third party that could probably fill my need, so thats why I am coming to you, the holders of obscure 3.5e lore for any class options other then the aforementioned trifecta that could fill the "Necromancer" roll while still being acceptable in a 3.5e game.(So nothing too uber broken.) This means that official WOC material will be far better then third party, but if you know a third party class that will not get suspicious looks or flying DMGs then feel free to suggest it as well.

So, do you have any ideas for an "atypical necromancer?"

[Answerer]

When you say "necromancer," do you specifically mean the animation of dead creatures, or just necromancy-themed things? Because from your list, it sounds like you might have missed out on some of the curse-based stuff.

Oh, also, necromancy can work fairly well for gishes, since necromancy tends to give a lot of temp HP. I like the Bloody Reaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157566) for this, if you can use homebrew. It should probably lose (a lot) fewer spellcasting levels (or raise more powerful undead), but it's really cool.

[Madara]

The Warlock does have an invocation for animating dead, along with all his warlock-ness. Maybe you just need new spells. Being a Wizard Necromancer can vary greatly based on your spell choice. Find some new necromancy spells, and maybe even research some new ones(homebrew), to get some change. A Wizard isn't naturally broken, its all about the spell choice.

I've looked at other official casting classes. Most don't get much Necromancy on their spell lists, and many get very poor/ no class features.

Is homebrew acceptable? I will take this opportunity to point to my Undead Overseer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227207).

[Answerer]

Shadowcasters could, with some buffs/fixes, make decent touch-attack based semi-gishes. It's a very weird concept but could be neat maybe.

[Yorrin]

Paladin->Bone Knight could get you a more martial feel for your necromancer. Start with the alignment variant Pali of your choice (Tyranny fits well, methinks).

[Flickerdart]

There's a Death Master in the Dragon Compendium - a spellcaster focused around Necromancy spells and effects.

[limejuicepowder]

I second the warlock. Unlimited use of animate dead, plus lots of other necromancy-feeling abilities - bestow curse, voracious dispelling, fel flight, summon swarm, chilling tentacles, the various debuffs via eldritch blast (including level drain!), and lots of others. Did I mention that all of their abilities can be used at will?

[Madara]

I second the warlock. Unlimited use of animate dead, plus lots of other necromancy-feeling abilities - bestow curse, voracious dispelling, fel flight, summon swarm, chilling tentacles, the various debuffs via eldritch blast (including level drain!), and lots of others. Did I mention that all of their abilities can be used at will?

Of course, don't forget that Warlocks do not make good minionmancers. You can still minionmance, you just shouldn't focus on it. I would go with a debuff/drain/curse warlock.

[gorfnab]

Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon (page 153) is an interesting necromancer option. It gets Rebuke Undead, Trapfinding, rogue like skills, 6th level spells (necromancy, divination, and conjuration: healing based), advanced learning (to pick up the really fun necromancy spells like shivering touch), and three ghost cohorts.

[Giegue]

Nightstalker, I must admit, looks VERY fun. However, 4+Int skill points seems hardly like enough, but seems fun none the less. However, I must ask, without SA, would it be better as a nightstalker to used mostly ranged weapons and forget str, or would weapon finesse on melee weapons be a better route? Also, what skills should I put ranks in. Maxing, Concentration, Hide, Move Silently and UMD seem pretty much manditory, but what else beyond that? Is taking spot and listen mandatory, and if so, how many ranks do I need to take in them?

[Wavelab]

You could pop on the Mother Cyst feat. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, in another thread they detailed how powerful Necrotic Cyst spells can get. One guy implanted cysts in orphans and exploded them at the heroes.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176964) is the thread.

[Darth Stabber]

There's a Death Master in the Dragon Compendium - a spellcaster focused around Necromancy spells and effects.

It's pretty good RAI, but by RAW it's amazing. Imagine being a wizard with great class features and more spell slots, and the only drawbacks are no specialization and your free level up spells are drawn from a narrower list.

[Toy Killer]

I've always wanted to make a diresinger (from Libris Mortis) but always figured if I was going to go necro-bard, it'd be better to just prestige into Pale-master instead. I'm not sure how you would get command undead or Vampiric touch, but the idea of a half-elf bard playing taunt classical violin while wights obliterate everything in the area always stuck me as cool.:smallcool:

[Giegue]

Yeah, by RAW the death master is amazing, but the question is how many DMs would actually run the class by RAW instead of RAI? So far I am stuck between Nightstalker and Death Master. Death Master is more familiar style wise to me, but Nightstalker just is so unique. I'm not as experienced with rogue-types as I am with wizardly types, though, but the thought of it is fun. I just wish it got more skill points. Anyway, as far as the Death Master goes, is there any argument one could make to convince a DM to let one run it by RAW and not RAI? I mean, I can see it being BETTER then the wizard, but without RAW it's actually a worse necromancer then a wizard due to a lack of Awaken Undead on it's list, so that is one argument that could be made.

Also, while Death Masters get good class features, last time I checked they get less then a wizard. Wizards get specialization, a familiar that scales, scribe scroll and a pile of bonus feats. Death Masters get Rebuke, an undead minion that scales and lichdom at level 20(if I remember correctly)..so I suppose I could argue that wizard, while it has weaker features, gets more of them(counting the bonus feats as features) AND gets a wider selection of spells that it can gain from leveling while the Death Master gets stronger features but in return gets a more restricted list to choose from when gaining spells from leveling and less features? Also, wizard has a ton of splatbook love while death master not so much. Could any of these be good arguments for letting the Death Master be run by RAW instead of RAI?

[Answerer]

I've always wanted to make a diresinger (from Libris Mortis) but always figured if I was going to go necro-bard, it'd be better to just prestige into Pale-master instead. I'm not sure how you would get command undead or Vampiric touch, but the idea of a half-elf bard playing taunt classical violin while wights obliterate everything in the area always stuck me as cool.:smallcool:
Obligatory:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2004/281/c/5/_bride_of_lucifer__by_noah_kh.jpg

[Thumperganker]

Look at the Master of Shrouds in Libris Mortis, it was suggested to me and seems pretty interesting. Plus going through that book may help to give you some ideas.

[gorfnab]

I've always wanted to make a diresinger (from Libris Mortis) but always figured if I was going to go necro-bard, it'd be better to just prestige into Pale-master instead. I'm not sure how you would get command undead or Vampiric touch, but the idea of a half-elf bard playing taunt classical violin while wights obliterate everything in the area always stuck me as cool.
Arcane Disciple (CD): Necromancer (ECS) nets you Command Undead and Vampiric Touch

Bard 8/ Pale Master 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Pale Master 8
Bard 7/ Diresinger 2/ Pale Master 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Pale Master 9
Dread Necromancer 8/ Heartfire Fanner 2/ Virtuoso 10

[KicktheCAN]

It's pretty good RAI, but by RAW it's amazing. Imagine being a wizard with great class features and more spell slots, and the only drawbacks are no specialization and your free level up spells are drawn from a narrower list.

What exactly is it about RAW that makes a Death Master so great?

[Piggy Knowles]

It's sort of an odd concept, but what about a Barbarian/Horned Harbinger? It's a combo I've always wanted to make.

Horned Harbinger is a prestige class from Faiths & Pantheons, and the flavor is that you are a worshiper of Myrkul, the Lord of Bones, and have touched the Crown of Horns (the artifact that holds his essence).

You get a bunch of undead-related abilities, including some beefed up Animate Dead SLAs, Deathwatch always on, rebuking, etc. You also grow horns of bone that act as a natural weapon, and deal double damage on a charge. The damage on them isn't that much, but the double damage on a charge is fun, and would combine well with a pouncing barbarian. Get a Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) and toss on Valorous and Wounding just for fun.

Also, don't under-rate the always on Deathwatch... it is a great way to know if anyone is invisible or hiding within your range, since you don't need to see a creature to get a reading.

The only tough entry requirement is the 8 ranks in knowledge (planes), which you could cover by taking the Planar Barbarian or Duskling Barbarian sub levels (Planar Handbook and Magic of Incarnum, respectively), or by dipping a level or two into any class that grants it.

Anyhow, I just think it's a cool concept... a horned berserker-priest of Myrkul, raging and draining the life from his enemies, then raising them from the dead.

[Darth Stabber]

What exactly is it about RAW that makes a Death Master so great?

Rules as written a Deathmaster can scribe wizard spells into his spellbook, and may prepare any spell of a level he can cast that he has scribed into his spell book. His spell list only influences his free levek up spells.

[Godskook]

Artificers make respectable minionmancers, as well, giving the idea a much more frankenstein-ian approach. They're also faster than traditional casters, getting access to Animate Dead at level 3, 4 levels earlier than wizards and 2 levels earlier than clerics.

[KicktheCAN]

Rules as written a Deathmaster can scribe wizard spells into his spellbook, and may prepare any spell of a level he can cast that he has scribed into his spell book. His spell list only influences his free levek up spells.

I see where the spellbook entry gives them the ability to add any Wizard spell to their spellbook but they can still only cast spells from the Death Master list. The spells ability of the Death Master says, "The death master can cast the spells given on the death master spells list."

The "Spellbooks" ability which the Death Master gets as per the wizard gives no agency to actually cast spells scribed in the spellbook. All it does is restrict the spells the character can cast to those that are scribed in the spellbook.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

For some REALLY out-there non-necromancy but still heavy "spirits-of-the-dead" connection, I'll direct you to two of my own Homebrew creations...they may not fit your purpose, but you may find them interesting.

Twilight's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11820875&postcount=11)

Restless Troubadour (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6397014&postcount=1)

[TurtleKing]

Another way is going Druid into Blighter. Can achieve the whole natural order side to necromancy. Well at least for a time.

The BIG question is just what kind of necromancy do you want? Sounds like have done the undead side quite abit but what about curses and pestilences?

Other methods for a more martial way are Duskblade by choosing spells like Blade of Blood, Doom Scarabs, and Vampiric Blade. Even better option possible is Hexblade as fills the curse part automatically with spells to possible achieve the rest.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, you can be a necrocarnum-wielding Incarnate without the Necrocarnate prestige class. In fact, thanks to Necrocarnum Acolyte, you wouldn't even have to be evil.

A lawful neutral Incarnate with dark, necromancy-themed soulmelds would actually be pretty fun. Necrocarnum Circlet gives you a decent zombie companion starting at level 2, and the Necrocarnum Vestments are one of the only Heart Chakra binds I would consider over the Strongheart Vest. Toss in unlimited Suggestion via Silvertongue Mask, surround yourself with the mists of the grave via Fellmist Robe (although you may want to switch out to Necrocarnum Shroud once you can bind to your Soul Chakra, for the at-will negative level attacks). Other than that, play it like any other Incarnate and have fun!

[Darth Stabber]

I see where the spellbook entry gives them the ability to add any Wizard spell to their spellbook but they can still only cast spells from the Death Master list. The spells ability of the Death Master says, "The death master can cast the spells given on the death master spells list."

The "Spellbooks" ability which the Death Master gets as per the wizard gives no agency to actually cast spells scribed in the spellbook. All it does is restrict the spells the character can cast to those that are scribed in the spellbook.

With the frequent references to wizard as opposed to actually writing things out it works. It's an obvious templating error, but it does work. They prepare spells from their spellbook.

[gooddragon1]

Uncarnate Druid Homebrew (http://s6.zetaboards.com/UNR_Dragon_Club/topic/8648007/1/#new)

[Baldin]

Eey,

I currently play a lvl 12 wizard focused specialist necromancer. The idea of the character is that he is specialized in necromancy however he doesnt animate the dead. He is a little sadistic and thus is a debuffer.

Some strong feats he has are:
- Black lore of Moil: adds 1d6+1d6/3 spell levels negative damage to all necromancy spells.
- Lore of the ur-flan: increases the DC of all your evil necromancy spells by 2
- Fearsome necromancy: All necromancy spells shaken the affected creatures (no safe)
- sickening touch: increase CL by 1 for all necromancy spells. Also you can make a touch attack to sicken the target (fort negated)

Some of the better spells:
- Spiritwall(SpellC)
- Bestow curse
- Spectral hand
- vampiric touch
- channeled lifetheft
- nights cares

This way you debuff and have lots of temp HP.

[Darth Stabber]

Eey,

I currently play a lvl 12 wizard focused specialist necromancer. The idea of the character is that he is specialized in necromancy however he doesnt animate the dead. He is a little sadistic and thus is a debuffer.

Some strong feats he has are:
- Black lore of Moil: adds 1d6+1d6/3 spell levels negative damage to all necromancy spells.
- Lore of the ur-flan: increases the DC of all your evil necromancy spells by 2
- Fearsome necromancy: All necromancy spells shaken the affected creatures (no safe)
- sickening touch: increase CL by 1 for all necromancy spells. Also you can make a touch attack to sicken the target (fort negated)

Some of the better spells:
- Spiritwall(SpellC)
- Bestow curse
- Spectral hand
- vampiric touch
- channeled lifetheft
- nights cares

This way you debuff and have lots of temp HP.

You forgot shivering touch (frostburn), aka dragon slaying touch. Also ray of exhastion, ray of enfeeblement, and all those delicious fear spells. Wizard necro is bad for minionmancy (in comparison to cleric and dread necromancy), but it is a pretty good school for doing BAD things to people.

[KicktheCAN]

With the frequent references to wizard as opposed to actually writing things out it works. It's an obvious templating error, but it does work. They prepare spells from their spellbook.

They prepare spells from their spellbook but they can only cast Death Master spells. They can scribe wizard spells into their spellbook but they have no agency to cast them. I am asking you to point me to where it actually says that they can cast wizard spells.