Is there a gestalt handbook?

[Darth Stabber]

Just as the title is asking, since I can't find one. And if there is one is it good? And it there is not would people be interested in one? I have done a lot of thinking about the ever popular variant, and have seen a lot of differing wisdom to be collected.

If I am going to do it, does anyone want to help with brainstorming?

Current thoughts that I have mostly fleshed out.
Don't get MAD - matching up classes that need similar abilities.
Active vs. Passive - having one class use your actions and one class improve them.
How to handle theurge type PRCs - a thorough explanation of why they are listed as shouldn't be legal, and how to use them without messing up your game.

[gorfnab]

Handling mounstrous and savage progressions
Prestige classes that are normally not worth it in normal builds but good in gestalt

[SamBurke]

What the best combinations are, period? Sample builds?

[Hylas]

I always thought of gestalt as more of way to create hybrid concepts than a way to optimize an existing class (and to reduce the "I'm multiclassing into 7 different classes" builds). Like if you wanted to be a arcane trickster off the bat you can just do wizard/rogue.


How to handle theurge type PRCs - a thorough explanation of why they are listed as shouldn't be legal, and how to use them without messing up your game.

I'm pretty sure UA states that they should be banned, because the amount of cheese could be too great, though I'm sure no one is tempted to be a full druid/wizard/cleric/psion character so PRC abuse shouldn't be a problem. :smallwink:

[Hirax]

Eh, being too powerful is the thought behind theurgy being banned, but honestly, not a lot of theurge builds are going to be stronger than wizard20/archivist20, picking regular prestige classes for either side. I think it's more likely that theurgy was banned because they didn't want people doing wiz10/fighter10//druid10/theurge10 as a method to get 20th level casting in two classes, as opposed to disallowing fighter20//wiz3/druid3theurge4/arcane hierophant10.

[Gnaeus]

Have at least d8 hp/level, good fort and will saves, and either a full 9th level Casting or Manifesting or Martial Adept on at least 1 side.

[Darth Stabber]

Eh, being too powerful is the thought behind theurgy being banned, but honestly, not a lot of theurge builds are going to be stronger than wizard20/archivist20, picking regular prestige classes for either side. I think it's more likely that theurgy was banned because they didn't want people doing wiz10/fighter10//druid10/theurge10 as a method to get 20th level casting in two classes, as opposed to disallowing fighter20//wiz3/druid3theurge4/arcane hierophant10.

This is precisely what I am planning on covering in that section.

Wiz3/Arc3/MT7//factotum13 (CL wiz10 arc10) = just fine
Vs.
Wiz3/factotum10//arc3/mt10 (CL wiz13 arc13) = a bit crazy
Vs
Wiz13//arc3/mt10 (CL wiz23 arc13) = batcrap insane

[FearlessGnome]

Wiz13//arc3/mt10 (CL wiz23 arc13) = batcrap insaneThis one is shot down by even DMs who'll allow theurging, though. See, Gestalt takes the best of both sides, but if both sides have good Fort saves, that does not get you better than Good fort save progression. Similarly, 'progresses wizard' and 'wizard' do not grant better than full wizard casting progression.

Rogue 11//Commoner10/Assassin1 does not get +2d6 to its sneak attack at level 11. It gets precisely +1d6, because that is the best either class has to offer.

[Darth Stabber]

This one is shot down by even DMs who'll allow theurging, though. See, Gestalt takes the best of both sides, but if both sides have good Fort saves, that does not get you better than Good fort save progression. Similarly, 'progresses wizard' and 'wizard' do not grant better than full wizard casting progression.

Rogue 11//Commoner10/Assassin1 does not get +2d6 to its sneak attack at level 11. It gets precisely +1d6, because that is the best either class has to offer.

I've seen it used in arguments before, that's why I included it, the thrust of the argument was the other two.

And on the note of sneak attack you are mostly right except rogue11//fighter9/assassin2 could be argued to have 7SA given the discrete nature of sneak attack.

[FearlessGnome]

Absolutely. It's fairly easy to have more than half your ECL in SA dice even without Gestalt. I just meant as in when both sides of the gestalt give the same thing. Heck, without fractional saves & BAB, you can have a Sorc20//Fighter1/Wizard19 with 20BAB and a Base Will save of 22.

[RMS Oceanic]

I would have thought the Sneak Attack from both sides would stack the same way the two sides having Uncanny Dodge gets you Improved Uncanny Dodge.

[Answerer]

A gestalt handbook?

If you want to hit things with a weapon, //Martial Adept.

If you don't, //Factotum.

In some cases, //Meldshaper is worthy of consideration.

Dropping LA, RHD, a Cleric dip, a Monk dip, etc., on the second side is also possible.

[Hylas]

And on the note of sneak attack you are mostly right except rogue11//fighter9/assassin2 could be argued to have 7SA given the discrete nature of sneak attack.

Nope.


Class Features: A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.
A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.
• Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge)
accrue at the rate of the faster class.

Since Rogue and Assassin both grant sneak attack, you only get the progression of one of the classes, even if you try to do something sneaky like staggering when you get the SA bonus at each level, you only get the bonus from one of the classes, which is the faster one, not both.

Another example is that if you're a barbarian/rogue, you get Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level from barbarian but you don't get Improved Uncanny Dodge from Rogue at 4th level from getting Uncanny Dodge twice.

[FearlessGnome]

I would have thought the Sneak Attack from both sides would stack the same way the two sides having Uncanny Dodge gets you Improved Uncanny Dodge.This... is not actually true. Usually, anything other than rogue will tell you "If you already have Uncanny dodge from a different class, this class stacks with that class to determine when you get Improved Uncanny Dodge."

This is dangerous ground, however, because there are plenty of feats that allow you to stack classes together to determine abilities, and in gestalt you can effectively double your level for things like Familiar abilities/Mounts/Animal Companions if class-stacking is allowed across the sides.

My personal preference is for "Can't progress more than once per level" for just about everything.

[rmg22893]

The fact that Geomancer becomes 1000x more appealing when applied to a dual casting build should be included.

[FearlessGnome]

The fact that Geomancer becomes 1000x more appealing when applied to a dual casting build should be included.

+1. A good indicator of a happy gestalt is green, bushy eyebrows. An awesome indicator of a happy gestalt is a level 15 Dire Tortoise with bat wings charging 600 feet and pouncing its enemies with Improved Grab and Improved Trip. Who is, and this a class feature, mind you, as graceful as a dryad while doing it.

With green, bushy eyebrows.

[Darth Stabber]

Here is something I as a gm would allow, but I'm not sure what everyone else thinks.

When taking a partial casting PRC in gestalt and taking the casting class it progresses oposite of levels that do not increment casting. Example
Wizard10//fighter10
Lvl11 green starmetal adept/wizard
Lvl12 GSA/fighter
Lvl13 GSA/wizard
Ect.

I realize that is not a favored PRC, and not even good in this example, but it illustrates my point. Would you as a gm allow it?

[Roguenewb]

I thought the secret to Gestalt was to make sure one side was always a factotum or a binder....

But seriously now, don't not be able to cast, cause i think every gestalt player is gonna have 9th level spells/powers/manuevers, and you don't wanna be left behind.

[Hylas]

Here is something I as a gm would allow, but I'm not sure what everyone else thinks.

When taking a partial casting PRC in gestalt and taking the casting class it progresses oposite of levels that do not increment casting. Example
Wizard10//fighter10
Lvl11 green starmetal adept/wizard
Lvl12 GSA/fighter
Lvl13 GSA/wizard
Ect.

I realize that is not a favored PRC, and not even good in this example, but it illustrates my point. Would you as a gm allow it?

It feels like messy book keeping to get extra feats/casting levels to me. If it was that important to the player I would make a custom PrC that took both sides of the gestalt level and would give (in this example) GSA with full casting and a few extra feats every couple levels.

A better example (Pathfinder, so switch gears for a sec) that I've been mulling around for Arcane Archer is, from Ranger/Wizard, Arcane Archer with full casting progression, 6 skills/level, a bonus feat every 4 levels, and animal companion progression as Ranger. I dunno how balanced it is, but it fits the character and feels graceful.

You know, thinking about it for a while, you'd probably still be better off doing ranger//wizard6/arcane archer because all you'll lose is 3 levels of caster progression and you gain all of the ranger bonuses. Then again, it's 3 levels of caster.

[Suddo]

I personally use fractional BAB. That way the aforementioned 20 Sorc // 1 Fighter / 19 Wizard doesn't have 20 BAB.
I personally would allow you to do Wizard 3 / Factotum 10 // Cleric 3 / MT 10 because although its crazy powerful I'd still not care sense we are playing Gestalt. I would not however allow you to do Wizard 13 // Cleric 3 / MT 10 simply because its silly. And if anyone says "But why that isn't consistent?" I say "Because I'm allowing you to do something crazy already quite complaining." If they keep complaining I simply take away Theurging altogether. I also consider Spellcasting like BAB not sneak attack, its just for sanity.

Lets see here what else.
Oh if you want to have serious fun then you could allow Dual PrCs it makes build much more powerful but yeah.

What else... Oh I think they had an Iron Chef style compitition for 20 level Gestalt character the winner was a 20 Factotum // 20 Psionic. It had elegance and was powerful as hell.

What else... Oh you need to decide how you handle LA and Monster HD. I personally like only putting them on one side as it makes them mildly viable. This could allow Winged 8 different forms of Half Dragon Human Warblade 20.

Edit: Oh and on the PrCs not giving Caster Levels, its an interesting question and I would personally allow it sense I, as stated above, consider Caster Level similar to BAB.

[jaybird]

Wizard20//Factotum20 :smallbiggrin: if you thought the normal Wizard was SAD...

[Kazyan]

+1. A good indicator of a happy gestalt is green, bushy eyebrows. An awesome indicator of a happy gestalt is a level 15 Dire Tortoise with bat wings charging 600 feet and pouncing its enemies with Improved Grab and Improved Trip. Who is, and this a class feature, mind you, as graceful as a dryad while doing it.

With green, bushy eyebrows.

All dualcaster gestalts need Geomancer. Yes, even that build. Look over the drift list again. Especially that build.

Has anyone made an Epic Geomancer progression?

[Soranar]

The best Gestalt combination , in theory (the same way an archivist, can be curtailed by a non cooperative DM), is the following:

Race: Elan

Erudite 20/Factotum 20

Erudite using the spell conversion ACF that makes it able to mimic any arcane spell with psionic power

Basically you get : access to every arcane spell, access to every psionic power (through expanded knowledge and you have the bonus feats to take them), a factotum's action economy paired with a wizard's and a psion's

Oh and you also get every skill, a ton of skillpoints, d8 hitpoints, you can convert your PP into emergency hitpoints (elan), you can wear armor with no spell failure (psionic powers don't hinder manifesting) you get your INT bonus to armor, you can mimic any class feature

need I go on?

Oh you also get a psicrystal and you can get a familiar with obtain familiar (due to being a factotum)

and I haven't even bothered to include the thrallherd PrC

Psionics, by themselves, are fine but when you gestalt them they get out of hand easily.

[Darth Stabber]

+1. A good indicator of a happy gestalt is green, bushy eyebrows. An awesome indicator of a happy gestalt is a level 15 Dire Tortoise with bat wings charging 600 feet and pouncing its enemies with Improved Grab and Improved Trip. Who is, and this a class feature, mind you, as graceful as a dryad while doing it.

With green, bushy eyebrows.

Would you accept a bear with manticore wings charging that distance with improved grab, flyby attack and 10 natural weapons a full iterative of unarmed strikes. But clumsy and face like a frost worm?

[Answerer]

Race: Elan
Kalashtar (Eberron Campaign Setting) are better than Elans for manifesters; they get 1 PP/level, instead of just 2 PP.


Psionics, by themselves, are fine but when you gestalt them they get out of hand easily.
This has little-to-nothing to do with Psionics, and everything from one of the most poorly-conceived ACFs of all time, published only online (though, to be fair, a lot of good Psionic content was published only online), for a variant class to begin with. At that point, it seems unfair to hold "Psionics" as a whole responsible.

And //Factotum is kind of insane with anything at all, particularly an Int-based caster. That'd be just as bad with Artificer or Psion.

[Darth Stabber]

Kalashtar (Eberron Campaign Setting) are better than Elans for manifesters; they get 1 PP/level, instead of just 2 PP.

Elan start with 3 free powers that have no manifester level cap. Their pp can be hp at no cost, they can get save bonuses, and sustainence is normally 3pp, they get it for 1. And the elan racial feats aren't anything to sneeze at. Power points are only part of it, and elan is sporting some pretty decent fringe benefits.

[Answerer]

Those three powers are pretty solid, I'll grant you, but compared to 18 PP?

I'm not very familiar with Elan racial feats (or Kalashtar racial feats, for that matter), so I can't very well comment on those, though.

[unundindur]

No love for Ruby Knights? Swift-action gallore!

[Soranar]

I think the reason why some would assume a kalashtar is superior is become they've used them in low PP builds (like a psywar or the like).

An Erudite gets, easily, over 400 PP. While it's a nice bonus, the 18 extra PP by the time you're level 20 just won't really matter.

Most high level encounters last 3-4 rounds in my experience. That's 80 PP an encounter, you're still good for 4 more before you have to worry about your PP and , at that level, you'll have ways to recover them between encounters.

Instead of 300 something PP you can't really use, you now get an uncapped damage prevention ability and a significant saving throw bonus.

Honestly Elans should be LA +1 but that's another discussion altogether

[Eloel]

Most high level encounters last 3-4 rounds in my experience. That's 80 PP an encounter, you're still good for 4 more before you have to worry about your PP and , at that level, you'll have ways to recover them between encounters.


If you're using only 20 PP per (seriously battling) round with Erudite 20//Factotum 20, you're doing something horribly wrong.

[Darth Stabber]

I think the reason why some would assume a kalashtar is superior is become they've used them in low PP builds (like a psywar or the like).

An Erudite gets, easily, over 400 PP. While it's a nice bonus, the 18 extra PP by the time you're level 20 just won't really matter.

Most high level encounters last 3-4 rounds in my experience. That's 80 PP an encounter, you're still good for 4 more before you have to worry about your PP and , at that level, you'll have ways to recover them between encounters.

Instead of 300 something PP you can't really use, you now get an uncapped damage prevention ability and a significant saving throw bonus.

Honestly Elans should be LA +1 but that's another discussion altogether

You have all the relevant points covered here. PP=HD is GREAT for a psychic warrior, for a psion, pshaw. It gives you 1 more fully augmented manifestation per day (assuming ML=HD). Elan's 2 PP don't matter for a psion past lvl 5. And one of the elan feats changes your pp to hp ratio from 1:1 to 1:4, it's rediculous. Elan probably should have +1LA, smart use of their racials is beyond powerful.

[Soranar]

If you're using only 20 PP per (seriously battling) round with Erudite 20//Factotum 20, you're doing something horribly wrong.

Even if you break action economy into little pieces the manifester limit still applies. You only get to spend 20 points per round (23 with overchannel).

Sure, you can go insane with temporal acceleration and delay power but, in the end, you still only took 3 or 4 rounds of actions (though all in a row)

Most likely you've killed / disabled everything in sight and used up a little more PP due to temporal acceleration ( so 100 something instead of 80)

Or don't you use the manifester limit on PP/round?

[Reynard]

Even if you break action economy into little pieces the manifester limit still applies. You only get to spend 20 points per round (23 with overchannel).

Sure, you can go insane with temporal acceleration and delay power but, in the end, you still only took 3 or 4 rounds of actions (though all in a row)

Most likely you've killed / disabled everything in sight and used up a little more PP due to temporal acceleration ( so 100 something instead of 80)

Or don't you use the manifester limit on PP/round?

Since when was it ever PP per round instead of PP per manifested power?

[Soranar]

Nevermind, that was a houserule and I've been using it for so long I completely forgot it was a houserule in the first place.

[Darth Stabber]

So I am probably going to get to work on it tonight.

[Hylas]

An idea just came to me regarding your Green Starmetal Adept question. What about fractional spell caster levels? Kinda like fractional saves and fractional BAB.

[danzibr]

Rogue 11//Commoner10/Assassin1 does not get +2d6 to its sneak attack at level 11. It gets precisely +1d6, because that is the best either class has to offer.
This is not stressed enough. When I initially misunderstood gestalt I made the same mistake.

So, say we're talking about level x, you look at what the left side at level x has to offer and what the right side has to offer at side x and take the best of both. So something like Fighter1/Wizard19//Sorcerer20 doesn't have BAB 20.

[deuxhero]

May want to include a section on the "gestalt for low tiers" variant suggested here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0).

[Darth Stabber]

Construction underway. I'm done for tonight. If you want to see what I've got so far you can check it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352).

I'm probably not going to cover a lot of full builds, other than to illustrate a few points. I can't cover great bunches, or the handbook will take 8 years to write, and WotC will have come out with 2 even newer editions of D&D that I won't bother spending money on.

As far as races with LA and RHD, I plan on covering this in some detail. There are three ways I've seen it covered.
1)LA and RHD are both sided until paid off (painful)
2)LA and RHD are one side, and you may take another class alongside the racial progression (most logical, and usually optimal)
3)LA and RHD run opposite until one is paid off, then a class may run opposite of the remainder. (convoluted, and can actually net a more powerful character in certain circumstances).