View Full Version : Questions on the OotS religion
Fenice
2012-04-09, 02:29 PM
There are a few things I don't understand about religion in the OotS setting. Since there is no evidence, let's speculate. :smallwink:
About the Northern Pantheon.
Sometimes this pantheon seems to be worshipped specifically by dwarves. For example, during his explanation of the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), Durkon only talks about dead dwarves. Does it mean that Hel is a dwarven goddess? Also, how is this vision of the afterlife consistent with the fact that it's common knowledge that the souls spend their afterlives in the plane of their own alignment?
Thor's credo seems to include love for beer and fear for tree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html). Haley mimics these clichés when she pretends to be a worshipper of Thor. Does it mean that Thor is a dwarven deity as well?
And the only cleric of Odin we have seen so far was a dwarf. And he was called simply "Odin's priest". Does it mean he is the only one (or the only dwarf)?
On the other hand, the first human city that the Order visits after Dorukan's dungeon had a temple of Freya. And Greysky City, another human city, has a temple of Loki. Maybe Freya is the main human deity in the Northern continent?
About the Southern Pantheon.
Does the fact that paladins worship the Twelve Gods as a whole mean they're all lawful and/or good? So who do the evil Southerners worship?
In Start of Darkness, the Mouse is shown as one of the Dark One's few allies. But if it (or any other one of the Twelve Gods) is evil, why is it worshipped by the paladins? And why should the Twelve Gods as a whole grant their grace to the paladins?
About the Western Pantheon.
Isn't Tiamat violating the agreements among the Pantheons? She seems to be the main goddess of all evil dragons, kobolds and other reptilian races. This means most of her followers don't leave in the Western Continent. And the Oracle doesn't live there for sure. Granting visions to him seems a big divine intervention as he's not a cleric.
My first thought was that Tiamat could be an outcast deity. Afterall, we know Marduk, the king of the Western Pantheon, is LG or something like that (he has paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)). And, if I'm not mistaken, Tiamat was indeed an enemy of the other gods in real mythology.
But Malack says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) Tiamat is a fine deity and that the Western Gods get along well.
Thoughts anyone?
MReav
2012-04-09, 03:12 PM
There are a few things I don't understand about religion in the OotS setting. Since there is no evidence, let's speculate. :smallwink:
About the Northern Pantheon.
Sometimes this pantheon seems to be worshipped specifically by dwarves. For example, during his explanation of the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), Durkon only talks about dead dwarves. Does it mean that Hel is a dwarven goddess? Also, how is this vision of the afterlife consistent with the fact that it's common knowledge that the souls spend their afterlives in the plane of their own alignment?
Thor's credo seems to include love for beer and fear for tree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html). Haley mimics these clichés when she pretends to be a worshipper of Thor. Does it mean that Thor is a dwarven deity as well?
And the only cleric of Odin we have seen so far was a dwarf. And he was called simply "Odin's priest". Does it mean he is the only one (or the only dwarf)?
On the other hand, the first human city that the Order visits after Dorukan's dungeon had a temple of Freya. And Greysky City, another human city, has a temple of Loki. Maybe Freya is the main human deity in the Northern continent?
That comic has Durkon specifically state that only those that die without honour go to Hel, the rest end up in their proper aligned plane. The Northern Gods are worshipped by the continent as a whole, not just the dwarves.
About the Southern Pantheon.
Does the fact that paladins worship the Twelve Gods as a whole mean they're all lawful and/or good? So who do the evil Southerners worship?
In Start of Darkness, the Mouse is shown as one of the Dark One's few allies. But if it (or any other one of the Twelve Gods) is evil, why is it worshipped by the paladins? And why should the Twelve Gods as a whole grant their grace to the paladins?
The Southern Pantheon seems to be a bit more cohesive than the other ones, in that they don't have as much internal fighting. The Paladins only need to be Lawful Good, their gods apparently don't. I remember my friend telling me about Birthright, and how the followers can have multiple interpretations of a god and therefore can have opposite aligned worshippers. Perhaps something similar is going on here.
About the Western Pantheon.
Isn't Tiamat violating the agreements among the Pantheons? She seems to be the main goddess of all evil dragons, kobolds and other reptilian races. This means most of her followers don't leave in the Western Continent. And the Oracle doesn't live there for sure. Granting visions to him seems a big divine intervention as he's not a cleric.
My first thought was that Tiamat could be an outcast deity. Afterall, we know Marduk, the king of the Western Pantheon, is LG or something like that (he has paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)). And, if I'm not mistaken, Tiamat was indeed an enemy of the other gods in real mythology.
But Malack says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) Tiamat is a fine deity and that the Western Gods get along well.
Thoughts anyone?
Perhaps she expanded her portfolio, allowing her to become the racial deity of kobolds (maybe a powerful kobold reached ascendency like the elves and goblins did, and she killed him and took the position for herself).
Fenice
2012-04-09, 03:22 PM
That comic has Durkon specifically state that only those that die without honour go to Hel, the rest end up in their proper aligned plane.
Sorry, I didn't express clearly what my doubt was about this part.
Is this true only for dwarves? Durkon only refers to dwarves.
If yes, why would the Northern Gods refuse to take the honorless dwarven soul, but not the souls of other races? Aren't they the gods of all the races of the Northern Continent?
If no, then who inhabits the Chaotic Neutral afterlife for example?
rgrekejin
2012-04-09, 03:22 PM
I really don't want to get in to any speculation, but we do know that the Northern Gods are worshiped by humans as well as dwarves, and possibly other races as well. It seems that, as a general rule, creatures in OOTS-verse worship a deity (or multiple deities) who corresponds to their geographic homeland and is roughly the same alignment as them. Exceptions for specific racial deities (Tiamat, the Dark One, V's Elven Gods, etc.) obviously apply.
Also, the Twelve Gods are not uniformly good. There is a scene in Start of Darkness where the Dark One discusses the Snarl with his allies (who are all explicitly evil Gods). One of them is Rat, of the Twelve Gods.
About the Western Pantheon.
Isn't Tiamat violating the agreements among the Pantheons? She seems to be the main goddess of all evil dragons, kobolds and other reptilian races. This means most of her followers don't leave in the Western Continent. And the Oracle doesn't live there for sure. Granting visions to him seems a big divine intervention as he's not a cleric.
My first thought was that Tiamat could be an outcast deity. Afterall, we know Marduk, the king of the Western Pantheon, is LG or something like that (he has paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)). And, if I'm not mistaken, Tiamat was indeed an enemy of the other gods in real mythology.
But Malack says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) Tiamat is a fine deity and that the Western Gods get along well.
Maybe chromatic dragons and kobolds originated on the western continent and over time some just happened to migrate to the rest of the world. Since clerical magic still functions outside of the god's primary region, the transplants would still be able to draw on Tiamat's power on the northern and southern continents and thus would not have any reason to stop worshipping her.
Don't forget about the Elven gods,Orc Gods, Shamanism (Island Orcs), and Dark One.
Though Dark One and the Elven gods, according to TV Trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeityOfHumanOrigin), remind me of Elderscrolls Talos (A human general who became a god).
I think Elven Gods are okay with being racist and cruel to Goblinkind but I think it may apply to the Peregrine commander and his lieutenant.
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-09, 06:26 PM
Maybe chromatic dragons and kobolds originated on the western continent and over time some just happened to migrate to the rest of the world. Since clerical magic still functions outside of the god's primary region, the transplants would still be able to draw on Tiamat's power on the northern and southern continents and thus would not have any reason to stop worshipping her.
Indeed. It's not as though gods can't grand spells to their clerics in other gods' territories. What they cannot do in other gods' territories is alter the laws of the world - including the rules of magic - by fiat.
Fenice
2012-04-09, 06:28 PM
What I'm point out is that the Oracle is not a cleric. Shouldn't granting him such powerful powers (apparently unlimited knowledge), in another continent, count as a divine intervention? Or, if you prefer, count as altering the laws of magic?
zimmerwald1915
2012-04-09, 06:46 PM
What I'm point out is that the Oracle is not a cleric. Shouldn't granting him such powerful powers (apparently unlimited knowledge), in another continent, count as a divine intervention? Or, if you prefer, count as altering the laws of magic?
He needn't always have been the Oracle of Sunken Valley. Perhaps he used to live on the Western Continent, moved to the Southern Continent at some point, and his powers were grandfathered in?
What I'm point out is that the Oracle is not a cleric. Shouldn't granting him such powerful powers (apparently unlimited knowledge), in another continent, count as a divine intervention? Or, if you prefer, count as altering the laws of magic?
Maybe the Southern Pantheon gave Tiamat a pass on the Oracle. He isn't going to cost them any worshippers since no one who goes to him will remember that he serves Tiamat, and given that he makes his services available to everyone, having him on the Southern Continent is actually a major boon to the Southern Gods since their worshippers have the most ready access to him.
Eigenclass
2012-04-09, 10:22 PM
Northern Pantheon:
There's no direct evidence in the comic to support this, but in 3E Deities and Demigods, I believe the Asgardian pantheon is divided into suggested race-based groups, with Thor, etc for Dwarves, and Frey, Freya, etc for Humans. Presumably, Dwarves like hammers and getting hammered, and Humans are into procreating like bunnies. Maybe Rich's world has a similar thing going on, where certain groups of worshippers are culturally predisposed towards particular deities' portfolios.
Southern Gods:
In certain campaign settings, you can be a cleric of a whole pantheon, and this doesn't necessarily influence your alignment. Obviously, unless the majority of the pantheon (or at least those holding the majority of the power) are of an opposite alignment from you, you may have some challenges advancing in the church hierarchy. Even in FR, am I remembering wrong, or is there at least one prestige class that worships the whole Morndinsamman?
Western Pantheon
Kobolds were one of the "adversary" races created mainly to provide XP for adventurers in general, and clerics in particular. "They were, in essence, betrayed by their very creators from the moment they sprang into creation". The mainstream Gods likely don't consider them people worth having as worshippers. Tiamat likely accepts their worship and gives them metaphysical swag to further her own evil agenda.
And there doesn't seem to be any rules about the servants of the Gods operating only within their home turf - just that the Gods can't directly intervene.
MReav
2012-04-09, 10:35 PM
Western Pantheon
Kobolds were one of the "adversary" races created mainly to provide XP for adventurers in general, and clerics in particular. "They were, in essence, betrayed by their very creators from the moment they sprang into creation". The mainstream Gods likely don't consider them people worth having as worshippers. Tiamat likely accepts their worship and gives them metaphysical swag to further her own evil agenda.
I've kind of taken the way the Lizardfolk and the Kobolds in OOTS are treated as running contrary to the Dark One's story and therefore reason to suspect the Dark One's claims.
That or he tries to cultivate a victim complex while the Lizardfolk and Kobolds of the Western Continent said "screw that" and actually tried to make things better for themselves without resorting to potential omnicide.
ti'esar
2012-04-09, 10:47 PM
I've kind of taken the way the Lizardfolk and the Kobolds in OOTS are treated as running contrary to the Dark One's story and therefore reason to suspect the Dark One's claims.
That or he tries to cultivate a victim complex while the Lizardfolk and Kobolds of the Western Continent said "screw that" and actually tried to make things better for themselves without resorting to potential omnicide.
I feel the same way.
I've kind of taken the way the Lizardfolk and the Kobolds in OOTS are treated as running contrary to the Dark One's story and therefore reason to suspect the Dark One's claims.
That or he tries to cultivate a victim complex while the Lizardfolk and Kobolds of the Western Continent said "screw that" and actually tried to make things better for themselves without resorting to potential omnicide.
Don't forget about the Orcs, along with their half breed kins.
P.S- I think Azurites might be racist to Half Orcs (There are no half orcs in the army during the battle or refugee fleet). I think they sided with Gobbotopia since they get treated like second class citizens under Lord Shojo. We'll learn about them in Therkla's backstory.
Eigenclass
2012-04-10, 12:17 AM
I've kind of taken the way the Lizardfolk and the Kobolds in OOTS are treated as running contrary to the Dark One's story and therefore reason to suspect the Dark One's claims.
That or he tries to cultivate a victim complex while the Lizardfolk and Kobolds of the Western Continent said "screw that" and actually tried to make things better for themselves without resorting to potential omnicide.
Actually, I think it's quite consistent with RC's backstory. The Western Continent appears to be a largely inhospitable desert - one of those second-rate environments with which the Gods stuck the monster races.
The Western government run mostly by humans, with only a token representation by the reptilian minority groups among the upper echelon - there's Malack, that one lizard with the monocle, and Kilkil, who's just a minor functionary anyway. To me, this looks a lot like the humans came in and displaced the lizardfolk living there, and assimilated them into the human, Western God-worshiping culture.
While I don't necessarily approve of RC's methods, his people seem to have their own religion, their own culture, and their own identity. Should they just give all that up, start going to Thor and 12-Gods temples, and assimilate the best they can into a society that isn't inclined to give them a fair shake?
I mean, we've seen Redcloak's village get wiped out - including younglings - by Azure City Zealots, without any indication being given that these particular goblins had harmed a single human. In fact, unless I recall incorrectly, none of the pallytards even accused them of having done evil - only that the 12 Gods had judged them evil. Clearly, there are differences between how the reptilians on the Western Continent and goblins and orcs on the Eastern Continent are treated.
ti'esar
2012-04-10, 12:31 AM
I'm not quite sure what the argument you're making is - on the one hand, you're agreeing that there's a difference between the treatment of "Eastern Continent" goblins and Western Continent lizardfolk that may mean something, but on the other you're arguing that the reptilians are more-or-less a marginalized minority within human society.
Although I don't think that second point really stands up - Malack is the high priest of his religion, at least in the EoB and possibly continent-wide; the "lizardfolk with the monocle" is the ambassador from the nation of Reptilia - suggesting that there's at least some kind of specific cultural identity among the reptilians - and judging by the rough proportions of lizardfolk/kobolds to humans in the settlements and groups we've seen, it looks like humans are just the majority (as is general for D&D), not that lizardfolk are specifically oppressed. You may as well argue that "Eastern Continent" halflings are a marginalized group.
Also, this whole subject is kind of off-topic - I might make a separate thread for them.
Actually, I think it's quite consistent with RC's backstory. The Western Continent appears to be a largely inhospitable desert - one of those second-rate environments with which the Gods stuck the monster races.
Actually
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html
According to this strip, I think the western continent used to be like Athas (good land turned bad) except The elves made their own version of Hadrian Wall to keep out the reptiles and humans. I think it could be like West gods made lizards and elves. Then the land went bad, except the elven lands, and human come in.
Note- I use Hadrian Wall reference since Elves are roman and they build a wall in England, Harian Wall, to keep out the Scots and Picts out of their turf.
Herald Alberich
2012-04-10, 12:55 AM
Speculation on my part, but it seems like since dwarves have such a different and much stricter society (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) than humans, different afterlife rules may well apply to them, even if Northern humans worship the same gods. So maybe Hel does only get dishonored dwarves, since honor is so much more important to dwaves than other races as a whole.
Thor-worship is cited as stereotypically Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html), so it wouldn't surprise me if humans preferred some of the other Northern deities. Odin, as chief of the gods, probably has clerics and devotees everywhere, even if they're a minority of overall worshipers.
Don't forget about the Orcs, along with their half breed kins.
P.S- I think Azurites might be racist to Half Orcs (There are no half orcs in the army during the battle or refugee fleet). I think they sided with Gobbotopia since they get treated like second class citizens under Lord Shojo. We'll learn about them in Therkla's backstory.
There aren't any halflings, elves, or dwarves in the Azurite forces either, other than the Order. Azure City is simply a human-only society. That said, half-orcs are listed among the "growing minorities" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) of Gobbotopia.
factotum
2012-04-10, 01:53 AM
If yes, why would the Northern Gods refuse to take the honorless dwarven soul, but not the souls of other races?
I think the concept of "honour" Durkon is referring to here is a specifically Dwarven one--note that he says a dwarf who dies of sickness rather than in a fight counts as having no honour. I imagine the other races who worship the Northern Gods have a considerably different concept of honour and thus the same thing does not apply. This isn't to say that non-Dwarves never go to Hel, you understand, it's just to say that we don't know what the criteria are for them to end up there, and probably neither does Durkon--which is why he specified Dwarves in his comment.
The Giant
2012-04-11, 01:21 PM
Northern Pantheon:
There's no direct evidence in the comic to support this, but in 3E Deities and Demigods, I believe the Asgardian pantheon is divided into suggested race-based groups, with Thor, etc for Dwarves, and Frey, Freya, etc for Humans. Presumably, Dwarves like hammers and getting hammered, and Humans are into procreating like bunnies. Maybe Rich's world has a similar thing going on, where certain groups of worshippers are culturally predisposed towards particular deities' portfolios.
Pretty much this. A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.
Southern Gods:
In certain campaign settings, you can be a cleric of a whole pantheon, and this doesn't necessarily influence your alignment. Obviously, unless the majority of the pantheon (or at least those holding the majority of the power) are of an opposite alignment from you, you may have some challenges advancing in the church hierarchy. Even in FR, am I remembering wrong, or is there at least one prestige class that worships the whole Morndinsamman?
Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.
As for the Oracle situation...no comment.
Pretty much this. A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.
Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.
As for the Oracle situation...no comment.
About the western gods, does the Western Continent started out as Green lush land and turned into desert, except Elves might have stopped its spread and build their own Hadrian Wall. Maybe Elven god might be heroes who stopped the desert blight and revered as gods (and abandoned the Western Continent as their gods).
Note: I used the word "Hadrian Wall" because Elves have roman esque name.
Fenice
2012-04-11, 02:28 PM
Thank you, Giant. :smallsmile:
Pretty much this. A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.
Wow, Hel seems to be a really cunning deity. I imagine her using the dead souls' beliefs and despair to bind them to herself. :smallamused:
Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.
I guess this is what I should have expected from a Chinese-like religion. Good and evil, yin and yang, both necessary and in balance.
I still find odd that the paladins share this vision, but maybe no mortal knows the Twelve Gods' alignments.
hamishspence
2012-04-11, 02:37 PM
I still find odd that the paladins share this vision, but maybe no mortal knows the Twelve Gods' alignments.
Maybe they know, but accept it as an unavoidable part of having a pantheon.
Something like "Rat may be a bit of a git, but he's OUR git."
NerfTW
2012-04-11, 09:48 PM
Maybe Elven god might be heroes who stopped the desert blight and revered as gods (and abandoned the Western Continent as their gods).
No, they're specifically called "Gods of Knowledge" in SOD. The elves worshiped logic and knowledge, not some heroes who... okay, I didn't read the whole thread but where on earth did that theory come from? Why wouldn't a desert just be a desert, especially when we see a mountain range next to it. You don't see the United States being overtaken by desert, and we have one of the dryest in the world.
Gift Jeraff
2012-04-11, 09:55 PM
No, they're specifically called "Gods of Knowledge" in SOD.I think you're thinking of the specific elven god of knowledge V worships (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html). In SoD, doesn't Redcloak just say that the elven gods are elves who became really powerful and gained a lot of followers?
No, they're specifically called "Gods of Knowledge" in SOD. The elves worshiped logic and knowledge, not some heroes who... okay, I didn't read the whole thread but where on earth did that theory come from? Why wouldn't a desert just be a desert, especially when we see a mountain range next to it. You don't see the United States being overtaken by desert, and we have one of the dryest in the world.
But the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) said that the elves sealed up their land from the desert (Either call Go Away Mountains as Great Wall or Hadrian Wall (to make it more Roman)).
Grey Watcher
2012-04-11, 11:13 PM
But the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) said that the elves sealed up their land from the desert (Either call Go Away Mountains as Great Wall or Hadrian Wall (to make it more Roman)).
... Or the Elves simply consolidated their hold on the northern territories early in history and the Goaway Mountains are just a naturally occurring phenomenon that happens to make the border easier to define and defend, especially against nations that are constantly wasting resources fighting each other.
Anyway, despite Rich's refusal to comment, I always figured that the Oracle had some extra-territoriality going. Y'know, Sunken Valley is considered "Western", much like embassies are considered to belong to the nation whose representatives they house, not country their located in.
Valyrian
2012-04-12, 07:01 AM
But the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) said that the elves sealed up their land from the desert (Either call Go Away Mountains as Great Wall or Hadrian Wall (to make it more Roman)).
Since you like references to other settings so much, the elves of Lothlórien have sealed up their land, too, and they also didn't need a wall for it, much less the Hadrian Wall.
Why do you insist on "making it more Roman" anyway, when there's neither a Hadrian, nor Romans or Picts in this setting? :smallconfused:
NothingButCake
2012-04-12, 09:00 AM
I guess this is what I should have expected from a Chinese-like religion. Good and evil, yin and yang, both necessary and in balance.The Azurites are clearly Japanese-based, which is distinct from Chinese.
And yin yang is not about balancing good and evil. It's the concept of how apparently divergent aspects of the universe are not opposing but complementary and interdependent. Morality has nothing to do with it; it's the ebb and flow of the universe. It's the observation that, with time, things rise and fall, what is obscured becomes revealed and obscured again, etc.
Since you like references to other settings so much, the elves of Lothlórien have sealed up their land, too, and they also didn't need a wall for it, much less the Hadrian Wall.
Why do you insist on "making it more Roman" anyway, when there's neither a Hadrian, nor Romans or Picts in this setting? :smallconfused:
Well, elves have roman esque names anyway.
1. There is no natural barrier (as in mountains or wall) near borders of Germania and eastern barbarian territory.
2. Since the cartographer said that elves sealed up the mountains, I thought they used some magic to raise the mountains (ala Populous) to keep away the human and lizardfolks, like Picts in Hadrian's reign.
NothingButCake
2012-04-12, 09:25 AM
We get it, you know what Hadrian's Wall is.
Palthera
2012-04-12, 09:26 AM
Well, elves have roman esque names anyway.
1. There is no natural barrier (as in mountains or wall) near borders of Germania and eastern barbarian territory.
2. Since the cartographer said that elves sealed up the mountains, I thought they used some magic to raise the mountains (ala Populous) to keep away the human and lizardfolks, like Picts in Hadrian's reign.
Hadrian's Wall wasn't really designed to keep invading armies out, the general consensus is that it acted as both a marker and a way to control customs and stop smuggling. Or that it was merely a show of power. It's presence is actually superfluous in places because it's been built on top of cliff-faces.
And elves do not have Roman names. The two names Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius aren't even possible in Latin.
rgrekejin
2012-04-12, 12:45 PM
But the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) said that the elves sealed up their land from the desert (Either call Go Away Mountains as Great Wall or Hadrian Wall (to make it more Roman)).
"Sealed up" doesn't mean what you think it does. It doesn't mean that the elves have somehow magically closed off the entire northern half of the continent, it's a figure of speech which means that the elves are in complete control of the northern half. They have consolidated their control over it to a degree that it is unrealistic that anyone can successfully force them to leave it. They are in complete control of it. They have it "sealed up".
...also, what is remotely Roman about the elves other than the fact that some of them appear to have vaguely faux-Latin names?
Another question:
Why didn't the Azurite Clerics carry weapons, especially mace? Does the gods have to do with the weapon choice for clerics (Northern clerics, like Durkon and Loki Priest, carry mace while the Sourthern clerics use magic instead of katana or mace)?
Marlowe
2012-04-15, 11:37 PM
Well, elves have roman esque names anyway.
1. There is no natural barrier (as in mountains or wall) near borders of Germania and eastern barbarian territory.
North front, the Rhine and Danube rivers. Roman expansion over these natural barriers (to the Elbe under Germanicus, into Transylvania under Trajan) was short-lived.
East front, the Syrian and Arabian deserts. Client states like Palmyra and Armenia blocked the gaps. Until the Romans broke them.
South front: the Sahara.
I'm presuming you mean "Germania" to mean the Roman provinces of Upper and Lower Germania, rather than the large expanse of "barbarian" territory also referred to as Germania. Also, a wall isn't a natural barrier.
Not that I have any idea what the absence or presence of natural barriers on any frontier of the Roman empire has to do with anything.
North front, the Rhine and Danube rivers. Roman expansion over these natural barriers (to the Elbe under Germanicus, into Transylvania under Trajan) was short-lived.
East front, the Syrian and Arabian deserts. Client states like Palmyra and Armenia blocked the gaps. Until the Romans broke them.
South front: the Sahara.
I'm presuming you mean "Germania" to mean the Roman provinces of Upper and Lower Germania, rather than the large expanse of "barbarian" territory also referred to as Germania. Also, a wall isn't a natural barrier.
Not that I have any idea what the absence or presence of natural barriers on any frontier of the Roman empire has to do with anything.
I know it now and can we talk about OOTS religion questions.
Another question:
Why didn't the Azurite Clerics carry weapons, especially mace? Does the gods have to do with the weapon choice for clerics (Northern clerics, like Durkon and Loki Priest, carry mace while the Sourthern clerics use magic instead of katana or mace)?
Marlowe
2012-04-16, 12:31 AM
Redcloak hasn't been seen with a weapon either. We've mainly seen the Azurite clergy casting spells or using other supernatural class features, where a weapon would just clutter the art. I don't think we need to worry about Clerics not having visible weaponry anymore than need to worry about where Elan's rapier goes when he's not holding it.
TL:DR we haven't seen certain people with weapons because they were doing something other than fighting and did not have their weapons drawn at the time.
rgrekejin
2012-04-16, 04:06 PM
Another question:
Why didn't the Azurite Clerics carry weapons, especially mace? Does the gods have to do with the weapon choice for clerics (Northern clerics, like Durkon and Loki Priest, carry mace while the Sourthern clerics use magic instead of katana or mace)?
All clerics are proficient with the same set of weapons. All clerics can use all simple weapons (morningstar, mace, etc). Also, clerics whose deities have the War domain are proficient with whatever their deity's favored weapon is (this may be how Durkon wound up with his warhammer). However, most clerics do not have the War domain, so most of them do not use martial weapons like swords, battleaxes, or polearms. Many clerics likewise choose to rely on their spellcasting rather than their weapons, and that appears to be the case with the Azurite clerics and Redcloak. You could maybe speculate that the Northern Gods are more warlike in general, and that is why their clerics tend to carry weapons and wear heavy armor, but we really haven't seen enough to say for sure one way or another.
All clerics are proficient with the same set of weapons. All clerics can use all simple weapons (morningstar, mace, etc). Also, clerics whose deities have the War domain are proficient with whatever their deity's favored weapon is (this may be how Durkon wound up with his warhammer). However, most clerics do not have the War domain, so most of them do not use martial weapons like swords, battleaxes, or polearms. Many clerics likewise choose to rely on their spellcasting rather than their weapons, and that appears to be the case with the Azurite clerics and Redcloak. You could maybe speculate that the Northern Gods are more warlike in general, and that is why their clerics tend to carry weapons and wear heavy armor, but we really haven't seen enough to say for sure one way or another.
How about a new theory?
- Rich used Oriental Adventures (or Legends of Five Rings) shugenja template for Azurite Clerics (Every asian clerics do not wield weapons, even Unicorn and Crab Shugenjas).
rgrekejin
2012-04-16, 08:51 PM
How about a new theory?
- Rich used Oriental Adventures (or Legends of Five Rings) shugenja template for Azurite Clerics (Every asian clerics do not wield weapons, even Unicorn and Crab Shugenjas).
Shugenja do not have domain spells, but we know that Azurite clerics do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). So they're probably just regular ol' clerics that don't use weapons that much.
Shugenja do not have domain spells, but we know that Azurite clerics do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). So they're probably just regular ol' clerics that don't use weapons that much.
Maybe he mixed both european domain style cleric with asian no weapons cleric (which is still "regular ol' clerics that don't use weapons that much." (rgrekejin).
rgrekejin
2012-04-16, 09:41 PM
Maybe he mixed both european domain style cleric with asian no weapons cleric (which is still "regular ol' clerics that don't use weapons that much." (rgrekejin).
*shrug* Maybe, but why? After all, even though Azure City has a distinct oriental flavor, they still use plain old medieval fantasy DnD classes sometimes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). And even if he did homebrew a special cleric class, how would we ever know?
*shrug* Maybe, but why? After all, even though Azure City has a distinct oriental flavor, they still use plain old medieval fantasy DnD classes sometimes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). And even if he did homebrew a special cleric class, how would we ever know?
from the same comic strip, what if Shugenja is just a title for cleric (like Samurai as a rank but not as a class)?
Problem solved!
Math_Mage
2012-04-18, 01:19 PM
So, Rich threw the Shugenja template into his story...except that he didn't borrow any of the crunch, and he didn't borrow any of the fluff. So, what exactly DID he do that fits your theory?
So, Rich threw the Shugenja template into his story...except that he didn't borrow any of the crunch, and he didn't borrow any of the fluff. So, what exactly DID he do that fits your theory?
Or it could be same as comment by rgrekejin
All clerics are proficient with the same set of weapons. All clerics can use all simple weapons (morningstar, mace, etc). Also, clerics whose deities have the War domain are proficient with whatever their deity's favored weapon is (this may be how Durkon wound up with his warhammer). However, most clerics do not have the War domain, so most of them do not use martial weapons like swords, battleaxes, or polearms. Many clerics likewise choose to rely on their spellcasting rather than their weapons, and that appears to be the case with the Azurite clerics and Redcloak. You could maybe speculate that the Northern Gods are more warlike in general, and that is why their clerics tend to carry weapons and wear heavy armor, but we really haven't seen enough to say for sure one way or another.
In another words, Southern clerics are not okay with stabbing someone with their swords or cracked skulls with blunt weapons, which a paladin could do it.
rgrekejin
2012-04-18, 02:11 PM
By the way... what makes you think that Shugenjas can't use weapons? The Shugenja class appears in three books (Complete Divine, Oriental Adventures, and Rokugan Campaign setting) and in every single version, the Shugenja is proficient with all the weapons that Clerics are, plus the short sword/wakizashi. So, even if they were Shugenja, there's no reason that they wouldn't be able to use weapons if they wanted to.
Where's the indication that Southern clerics are unwilling or unable to use weapons?
("The High Priest of the Twelve Gods chose to spend all his actions trading spells with Redcloak instead of using a weapon" is not a good answer.)
By the way... what makes you think that Shugenjas can't use weapons? The Shugenja class appears in three books (Complete Divine, Oriental Adventures, and Rokugan Campaign setting) and in every single version, the Shugenja is proficient with all the weapons that Clerics are, plus the short sword/wakizashi. So, even if they were Shugenja, there's no reason that they wouldn't be able to use weapons if they wanted to.
Ohhh..I never played D&D and chose Shugenja (Only in screenshots) because Azurites are asians.
Now, let's just wait for word of rich about azurite clerics having no clubs and short sword.
Math_Mage
2012-04-18, 03:29 PM
Or it could be same as comment by rgrekejin
In another words, Southern clerics are not okay with stabbing someone with their swords or cracked skulls with blunt weapons, which a paladin could do it.
What you just said is not the same as what rgrekejin said. I can tell because I agree with what rgrekejin said, and I do not agree with what you said.
rgrekejin
2012-04-18, 03:31 PM
Now, let's just wait for word of rich about azurite clerics having no clubs and short sword.
...I'm confused. What the heck would that even prove? Every class can use a handful of weapons, even the monk, who is designed to fight with his fists. The clerics of Azure City, like all other clerics, are probably proficient with weapons. They just don't use them. Maybe it is because they don't like to, or some tenet of their religion prevents them from doing so, but frankly, the most likely explanation is that, even though they're proficient with some weapons, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) We really don't need Word of God on this. And, as the strips in question are almost half the comic ago, we're pretty unlikely to get it, too.
Valyrian
2012-04-18, 05:28 PM
Now, let's just wait for word of rich about azurite clerics having no clubs and short sword.
I really hope the Giant doesn't waste his time addressing imagined problems that can be resolved by plain common sense.
B. Dandelion
2012-04-18, 06:01 PM
I really hope the Giant doesn't waste his time addressing imagined problems that can be resolved by plain common sense.
...do you have any idea how hard it is to resist a perfect setup like that? Like, "so I guess now would be an awkward time to announce his bid for congress?"
Obnoxious Hydra
2012-04-27, 06:36 PM
Perhaps we should steer this thread back in the direction of the original subject, isntead of getting deep into
"yeh but they have this pestige class so they use this thing because of that thing because they have this class from where they come from because it's a prestige class which uses this thing".
Regarding the southern gods, I think that, even though Rat is evil, the Paladins are slightly more relaxed about that and continue to worship the pantheon as a whole, because there is very little internal conflict amongst the southern gods, and they all work for the same thing.
I might be wrong, but perhaps Rat's evil alignment is simply because of some opinions he has that the other southern gods don't share. So, he was more inclined to help the Dark One when he came to godhood, but he's not a horrible terrible evil god with his own agenda like the Dark One or Tiamat.
GrumpyEye
2012-04-28, 04:34 AM
The Azurites are clearly Japanese-based, which is distinct from Chinese.
And yin yang is not about balancing good and evil. It's the concept of how apparently divergent aspects of the universe are not opposing but complementary and interdependent. Morality has nothing to do with it; it's the ebb and flow of the universe. It's the observation that, with time, things rise and fall, what is obscured becomes revealed and obscured again, etc.
Ill disagree, the gods seem chinese zodiac based as opposed to amatsuwhatever/hachiman Japanese based standard pantheon. Soon and mijung seem to have names more similar to korean then japanese, but there is a good bit of japanese name stuff. The weapons and classes have a japanese feel because of the samurai/ninja/katanas. The new year celebration seemed more chinese with the dragon thing, but maybe its common in Japan too. My guess is that the Azurite culture is a composite east asian culture.
Ill disagree, the gods seem chinese zodiac based as opposed to amatsuwhatever/hachiman Japanese based standard pantheon. Soon and mijung seem to have names more similar to korean then japanese, but there is a good bit of japanese name stuff. The weapons and classes have a japanese feel because of the samurai/ninja/katanas. The new year celebration seemed more chinese with the dragon thing, but maybe its common in Japan too. My guess is that the Azurite culture is a composite east asian culture.
Don't forget Vietnamese (like Thanh).
Marlowe
2012-04-28, 08:50 AM
Azurites ARE a generic East Asian culture, hence the mixing of Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and Chinese names. "Mijung" is a genuine Korean women's name, though an old-fashioned one. That said, most of the polearms they used seem to have been quite Western.
50monk
2012-05-04, 01:44 AM
{{scrubbed}}
Now, let's just wait for word of rich about azurite clerics having no clubs and short sword.
This statement is now Pocket vetoed (Euphemism of Silent No).
Zubzub
2012-05-11, 12:02 PM
{{scrubbed}}
{{scrubbed}}
I mean, since rich didn't answer it, let's forget about this statement and never bring it back.
ti'esar
2012-05-11, 03:28 PM
... Your unquenchable need to compare oots to other completely unrelated things, coming up with problems that never existed in the first place and marginal paraphrasing (which mostly comes across as if you're trying to show off your knowledge) makes me want to claw my eyes out.
Please, just stop the stress for yourself and ignore him. Nothing you say will ever make a difference.
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