[PF] Synthesist

[Mari01]

How much more powerful is the synthesist compared to the regular Summoner? Is it something to be cautious with (can get cheesy)? A player of mine is taking it, and while there were some minor things like having pounce on the wrong base eidolon, he's doing everything by the book. But unlike the other archetypes I can't see any downside to having no worries about your physical scores AND having additional armor AND having free temp hp from the eidolon on top of your own.

TL;DR Synthesist Archetype vs Vanilla Summoner

[stack]

Sythesists don't get the action economy advantages, nor are they likely to be able to get mileage from the summon SLA. Ruels confusrion and less than helpful responses from Paizo mean the player and DM need a good sit-down before trying to play one to sort out rules (casting, using items, feats, armor, etc).

[deuxhero]

It can get cheesy (though not "overpowered" because melee) by allowing you to dump physical stats entirely for the cost of only a single level.

However, normal Summoner is more powerful because of the action economy. They have a limited number of overpowered options on their spell list (Magic Jar), but their core stuff is pretty reasonable.

[Wagadodo]

Really you taking a step in 'personal' power by being a synthesist, but you taking a step down in game power by being a synthesist. One thing in D&D is the more actions you can do your turn the better. A synthesist loses out on the Eilodons actions. You also have to qualify for any feats that you want use as an Eilodon so you do not get the double feat bonus of almost two characters.

[Jack Zander]

Alone, it really isn't very impressive. A few levels dipped on top of a melee class can get rather nasty though (any class can get pounce with a 1-level dip in synthesist).

[Mari01]

Thanks for the hasty responses everyone. So the consensus is it's a step up in some areas, a step down in others, and can get a bit out of hand for melee classes. That's nothing that can't be handled.

[GreenZ]

Synthesist also makes for a rather great Skill monkey too, just dump all your evolutions into the Skilled evolution and then rely on Summon Monster and spells during combat.

It's not nearly the nasty combatant that summoners usually are but it can really wreck any kind of skill challenges. :smallsmile:

[jaybird]

If you want to be a melee beast, combine Synthesist and Paladin. Use a weapon and stack on as many natural attacks as you can pull. Make iterative armed attacks using normal BAB, then make your Eidolon's cap of natural attacks at -2 to hit each. Use claw attacks - you can get an evolution where if you hit with two claws, you get a free third hit.

[grarrrg]

Compared to other characters/classes a Synthesist can be considered cheesy. You are basically a Gestalt Fighter/Sorcerer for the first few levels, easily outclassing either.

Compared to the Normal Summoner:
Synthesist is better at low levels as you don't have that many spells anyway (less worries about lost Action Economy). Also your survivability is GREATLY improved by going Synthesist. You have your Base HP + Eidolon HP, which reduces the chances of being 1-shotted.

Once you get to the middle levels it evens out a bit due to Summoner casting picking up and Action Economy becoming more of an issue.



It should be pointed out that 1 level of Synthesist is NOT a good idea for a Melee Character to dip for.

Yes, you can get some nifty abilities you otherwise couldn't have, or would have problems getting, but the main drawback is that level 1 Eidolon stats are weak, and you only have 3 Evo-points to play with.


Alone, it really isn't very impressive. A few levels dipped on top of a melee class can get rather nasty though (any class can get pounce with a 1-level dip in synthesist).

That 1 level dip would have to be a Quadruped Eidolon, which only has 14 Str and 14 Dex, and a Bite attack. No arms > No weapons.
After adding Pounce (1 point) you would need to spend the other 2 Evo points to add 2 arms so you can use weapons again.
BUT you are still stuck with only 14 Str.

_If_ you plan on dipping into Sythesist with a Melee character you should take at LEAST 5 levels to be get your Physical stats up and get a decent number of attacks, and a useable amount of Evo Points.

[NamelessNPC]

It can get cheesy (though not "overpowered" because melee) by allowing you to dump physical stats entirely for the cost of only a single level.

Something that most people miss is that you shouldn't take only a single lvl in synthetist, because those awseome physical stats depend on your eidolon being active, and taking only one level would leave it with like 10 hp. They hit you once and the eidolon goes away until tomorrow

[Mari01]

Something that most people miss is that you shouldn't take only a single lvl in synthetist, because those awseome physical stats depend on your eidolon being active, and taking only one level would leave it with like 10 hp. They hit you once and the eidolon goes away until tomorrow

Ok. I hadn't gotten to looking at the eidlons actual hp it was giving. The misconception we are under is that the first die is maxed. As it turns out, you dont max out on any racial hit die at all (still learning rules as we go). That doesnt seem nearly so bad.

[NamelessNPC]

That's right, but what I was saying is that you don't get to "take a level in synth and forget about physicals forever", but you can "take all your levels in synth and forget about your physicals forever"

[doko239]

I play a Fighter 1/Synthesist x in Pathfinder Society. In my experience, the upsides and downsides are as such:


Plusses:

- Massive boost to physical stats (can easily outclass even a dragon disciple)
- Huge potential for customization due to evolution system
- Natural armor rivaling tank classes
- Potentially the highest HP of any PC class
- Medium BAB on a non-standard progression
- Able to become an instant skill-monkey with Evolution Surge + Skilled evolutions

Minuses:

- Very vulnerable in early game
- If Eidolon is taken out, you're basically done for the day
- A sleep, banishment or Antimagic Field effect will remove you from combat entirely
- Eidolon HP cannot be healed normally
- Cannot use armor, period
- Lower BAB than other melee-centric classes
- Less actions-per-turn than other summoners


The class is very much a sledgehammer/eggshell combination. As soon as you remove the eidolon you end up with a subpar caster with no armor and nothing but support spells and Summon Monster effects.

[grarrrg]

...taking only one level would leave it with like 10 hp. They hit you once and the eidolon goes away until tomorrow

(temporarily ignoring the other reasons why to NOT DIP 1 level of Synth...)
Fused Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) lets you sacrifice your HP to prevent an equal amount of damage to the Eidolon HP.

So you don't have to worry about losing your Eidolon-form until your combined HP drops really low.



I play a Fighter 1/Synthesist x in Pathfinder Society. In my experience, the upsides and downsides are as such:

Plusses:

- Potentially the highest HP of any PC class
- Medium BAB on a non-standard progression

Minuses:

- Very vulnerable in early game
- If Eidolon is taken out, you're basically done for the day
- Lower BAB than other melee-centric classes

The class is very much a sledgehammer/eggshell combination. As soon as you remove the eidolon you end up with a subpar caster with no armor and nothing but support spells and Summon Monster effects.

You WILL have the highest (effective) HP out of anyone save a Barb with max CON.
Actually, the Bab follows a perfectly normal progression, but due to how an Eidolon "levels" it seems a little off.
Eidolons have FULL Bab, but they only gain 3 HD every 4 Summoner levels.
An Eidolon's Bab winds up being (.75*Level+.75), or 3/4 Bab rounding UP.

And while your Bab is lower than a typical melee character, it doesn't usually matter for 2 reasons. First, you can REALLY pump your Str score, so you won't have problems hitting anyway. Second, you'll almost certain rely on multiple attacks to inflict damage, so lost Iteratives are much less of an issue.

You aren't really any more vulnerable in the early game than any other character. A Kobold with a Light Crossbow can potentially one-shot anybody.

If you lose your Eidolon-form then (depending on your Physical Stats), you just need to fall back on your Summon Monster ability. And remember, your Summon Monster ability has a duration of 1 minute per level, instead of 1 round per level.

[doko239]

You aren't really any more vulnerable in the early game than any other character. A Kobold with a Light Crossbow can potentially one-shot anybody.

If you lose your Eidolon-form then (depending on your Physical Stats), you just need to fall back on your Summon Monster ability. And remember, your Summon Monster ability has a duration of 1 minute per level, instead of 1 round per level.

You are more vulnerable than a straight melee class, for one reason: you don't get back up again. Your early armor can be fairly high (highest possible natural armor at 1st level is +4, highest possible dex is 16, meaning 19 AC at level 1 with dodge feat is absolute max), and your hp will be good (8 from summoner + 5 from eidolon + 2x con mod (likely 12 con) means probably about 15 effective hp at level 1, compared to a Barb with 18 con at 16 hp); however if you are knocked out then you're useless for the day. Summon Monster lessens the pain (I choose you, Riding Dog!) but not by a lot. Bear in mind this is coming from someone who's playing this class, not theorycrafting it... these are all pitfalls I've run into in the course of playing the character. Until you're high enough to be able to cast Summon Eidolon, you are going to DREAD the one-shot crit roll.

One other thing that bears mentioning: A Synthesist can end up dead in a hurry if they dump Con and get knocked out. If you drop your Con down to 7 for the points and your Eidolon has a con of (let's say) 14, that's 4 hp/level gone as soon as you pass out. Very easy to take a proverbial "Barbarian face-plant".

[Blisstake]

Sythesists don't get the action economy advantages, nor are they likely to be able to get mileage from the summon SLA. Ruels confusrion and less than helpful responses from Paizo mean the player and DM need a good sit-down before trying to play one to sort out rules (casting, using items, feats, armor, etc).

Actually, the recently released errata for Ultimate Magic clears up a lot of the issues with the class, including armor interaction.

[panaikhan]

I am quite enjoying my straight Synthesist character (currently L11).
As a large (potentially huge) quadruped with 5 (potentially 9) attacks per round, over 200 combined HP and an AC above 30 who can also fly, I think I have the role of party tank covered.

[stack]

Blisstake - haven't seen the errata. Is it better than whe FAQ they put out a ways back that just made things more confusing?

Regarding armor at low levels, shield and mage armor add another +8, and mage armor is hours/level, so its not hard to get good AC. Only reason not to take both right off is the painfully limited number of spells known.

[CTrees]

I played a straight, Aasimar Synthesist from levels 1-4 (at which point, the campaign fell apart - just before I got to start flying... sad...). I went biped, using a longspear and falling back on claws, when necessary. The actual summoner had on studded leather and carried a crossbow, just in case - there's not a penalty for having armor on while fused (you just don't gain any bonuses), and I kept my Con decent (Dex was 10 or 11, Str was dumped). In combat, I let the eidolon HP drop to 1, then used fused link until I needed an actual heal (at which point, lesser rejuvenate eidolon). Worst case strategy was a potion of expeditious retreat, the Summon Monster SLA, and (once it became active) Summon Eidolon.

It was ridiculously durable, even at level one (though, that's in comparison with other level one PCs, at which point even barbarians are a little squishy). Never once was it in danger of actually dying, and prep with equipment on the summoner himself helped avoid certain unpleasantness. Also, all the people worrying about banishment, sleep, etc? Summon Eidolon is your friend. Oh, and not losing the Summon Monster SLA means you can still be a huge pain in the rear, even without your primary strategy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Compared to a normal summoner, it's objectively weaker, simply because you lose action economy. You either take melee, which... melee... (in which case, you're a really durable gish-in-a-can, and should tailor your spell list to suit), or you're a freakin' fantastic skill monkey with great casting and a mode-switch as soon as you start combat (to using summons, naturally. also: you don't get to dump physical stats nearly so much with that build). I'm this close to saying the Skilled evolution is overpowered, particularly with Lesser Evolution Surge letting you pick up whatever one you need at that moment.

Actually now I really want to draw up a build for a skill monkey synthesist. Hrm...