Belker Build Is it a joke?

[Forbiddenwar]

I am interested in playing a halfing single class barbarian.

Is it possible/survivable, or just a (Belker) joke?

If it is possible, how would you do it? What feats and when? What skills?

Can you fit handle animal/ride in there for a mount?

[Tvtyrant]

Belkar isn't a single class Barbarian, he is a ranger with 1 or more levels of Barbarian thrown on top. I assume he is TWF + Powerattack, which isn't a great combo but Rich's world isn't exactly optimized.

[Flickerdart]

Take 3 levels of Stoneblessed before going into Barbarian, then take the Goliath Barbarian ACF. Now, whenever you rage, you become a Large halfling.

[Reluctance]

Belkar isn't viable, but it's the dual-wielding ranger side that fails to work on many levels. You're not able to leverage as many bonuses with light weapons, and he lacks bonus damage that can benefit from multiple swings. (Being nice, he has Favored Enemy: Everybody. Check the Stats&Level Geekery in the main comic subforum to see why that still doesn't make his damage competitive.)

Straight barbarian, you lose out on damage dice and one point of strength modifier. Suboptimal, but not quite as harsh. Power Attack with a two-hander can still leave a mark regardless.

[Malachei]

I'd make this a Warblade, Ranger, Barbarian.

[Suddo]

My favorite Barb handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8753.0)

[Grendus]

Put simply, a halfling barbarian loses out on one point of damage for his size and one for his loss of strength. That's it. The difference between a human barbarian and a halfling barbarian is two damage per hit. So yes, perfectly viable.

Belkar's actual build, on the other hand, isn't. TWF is terrible if you don't have a good source of bonus damage (at which point it's marginal, though a THF character with the same optimization level will outshine you), and daggers are light weapons and thus don't qualify for Power Attack. The only reason he's a "sexy shoeless god of war" is because the hobgoblins he usually fights are likely CR 1/3 enemies and he was around level 12 at that point. He has no wisdom to leverage his spells, though most characters in OOtS avoid non-core abilities so he probably would be using the crappy ones from the PHB anyways. Overall, he's probably the most unoptimized character in the group, even V with Conjuration and Transmutation banned is better off.

[Gavinfoxx]

V hasn't banned Transmutation.

[eggs]

I hear jokes are a thing the comic has, sometimes. :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

Take 3 levels of Stoneblessed before going into Barbarian, then take the Goliath Barbarian ACF. Now, whenever you rage, you become a Large halfling.

This. Is. Hilarious.

[ericgrau]

In core there's only a hair of difference in damage between TWF and THF damage output; high level core power attack is break even or reduces damage per round for example since attack bonus is more important than damage at high levels. Thanks to rage and favored enemy damage he actually comes out slightly ahead against favored enemies. As pointed out he has only lost a couple damage, and he gains a couple AC and +1 to saves to let him fight longer. He's way better at ranger stealth than a human ranger and he does make use of it. It's not optimal but he really can be built the normal way without noticing any huge problems. And he could certainly outfight Elan, Haley and Durkon without Thor's Might like the comic portrays.

[Eigenclass]

I assume he is TWF + Powerattack,

Not possible - Power attack doesn't work with light weapons.

Couldn't a very equipment-focused TWF build work, though, maybe with Tempest levels? Like if you could score a couple of vorpal kukris, or massive-critical shortswords or something... Use that barbarian speed with the Quick variant trait for 40 feet of movement per turn with two-weapon spring attack, and some tactical maneuvering to make enemies run through squares threatened by allies - probably come up with some way to have a high tumble.


P.S. We've seen Belkar take out even-level foes before - his LG kobold opposites have to be on the same level as he, no? Since OOTS is not very tightly based on actual D&D rules, the characters can afford not to optimize, and to build around style or storyline more than mechanical effectiveness.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In core there's only a hair of difference in damage between TWF and THF damage output; high level core power attack is break even or reduces damage per round for example since attack bonus is more important than damage at high levels.

The big problems are that TWF needs to be power attacking to gets its extra attacks in, and damage reduction. A monster with DR 10 can shut a TWF down hard if he can't bypass it. THF, on the other hand, can still do plenty of damage with a single attack, and doesn't care much about damage reduction at all.

(Also, feat tax on TWF. Also also, my observance of high-level play is that players and monsters are both hitting even on absurdly low d20 rolls, without any kind of real to-hit optimization.)

[eggs]

If we're making the single-classed Belkar-themed barbarian, let's go Spirit Lion Housecat Totem, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and Two-Weapon Fighting. TWFing Daggers on a halfling is just about the worst way for a straightclassed barbarian to do damage, but factoring in the animal companion damage, it could be somewhere vaguely near the ballpark a Barbarian normally expects.

To really get up to snuff, it might be acceptable in this case to take Leadership for a Bard. Preferably an unusually charismatic Elan dumping Int.


In core there's only a hair of difference in damage between TWF and THF damage output; high level core power attack is break even or reduces damage per round
Both of those are only true if you assume every attack is a full attack; that's the problem.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In core there's only a hair of difference in damage between TWF and THF damage output; high level core power attack is break even or reduces damage per round for example since attack bonus is more important than damage at high levels. Thanks to rage and favored enemy damage he actually comes out slightly ahead against favored enemies. As pointed out he has only lost a couple damage, and he gains a couple AC and +1 to saves to let him fight longer. He's way better at ranger stealth than a human ranger and he does make use of it. It's not optimal but he really can be built the normal way without noticing any huge problems. And he could certainly outfight Elan, Haley and Durkon without Thor's Might like the comic portrays.

But Power Attack doesn't even come into the base equation for the damage. One greatsword does the same damage as two short swords, only without a -2 penalty. Short sword plus long sword does an extra one damage, but it's still in exchange for a -2, and you have to take double the weapon-specific feats to get the same benefit, and the TWF and extra weapon-specific feats can be replaced with just Power Attack, and free up a bunch of feat slots, so with Power Attack, the power of two-hander increases even more.

In addition, the only real benefit to TWF is the extra weapon damage type and enchantment options. But it costs twice as much for the enchantments, and you could get the same deal by carrying a holy morningstar as a backup weapon. Plus, while holy morningstar does less damage than double short swords, it pierces DR with every attack, not half the attacks, and even without it, the greatsword only gets half the reduction from DR that TWFers get.

The only saving grace of TWF is sources of extra damage. But Weapon Specialization (short sword) just brings the damage up to par with the Power Attacking greatsword, and for an extra feat (this is assuming the greatsword-user has Weapon Focus, this IS core after all), or for the same number of feats and two less damage (if the two-hander has Weapon Specialization as well). Rage does the same thing for this as Weapon Spec.

Plus, at higher levels, we get into Improved and Greater TWF. The two-hander gets the equivalent of those for free. Dual wielder has to spend two extra feats.

[ericgrau]

Both of those are only true if you assume every attack is a full attack; that's the problem.
I think the last time I made the numbers comparison I did 50% single attacks and counted the feats. Again high level power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) usually reduces damage per round; that's all I'll say on that since I don't like repeating myself.

Someone could try putting a couple builds together. including proper wealth by level. Average monster stats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9556126&postcount=5), especially monster AC, should be helpful. You have to look up a few monsters to guestimate monster attack bonus and damage though since it's not on the tables.

[eggs]

Your calculations don't account for attack bonuses higher than [target AC-2], which is what even a TWF halfling is swinging with for most of its pre-epic career.

The forum just ate my post and I'm not going to rehash it, but not everyone who disagrees with you has neglected to run the numbers. Even a cookiecutter Weapon Focus Fighter or straightclassed Barbarian is going to exceed an attack bonus of [target AC-2] by level 10; the smallest bits of optimization (high strength race?), tactical play (flank? trip? charge?), or typical buff or debuff effects on its allies parts (glitterdust? black tentacles? haste?) make it trivial for a melee character to get an attack bonus 6-12 points above that threshold.

Easy illustration: Orc Barbarian 10 with a +2 Halberd, +4 Str, Improved Trip -> effectively +27 on a charge+trip against average AC 22 -> Power Attack is just below +14 expected damage, without compromising hit chance. Splatbooks expand the divide.

So Belkar is at a serious disadvantage without at least a bit of build-related deliberation. A Swift Hunter TWFer with a Barbarian dip for Rage, spirit kittycat totem and a favored enemy blown on either Kobolds or Arcanists would be able to take his schtick and thrive.

[Ranting Fool]

I am interested in playing a halfing single class barbarian.

Is it possible/survivable, or just a (Belker) joke?

If it is possible, how would you do it? What feats and when? What skills?

Can you fit handle animal/ride in there for a mount?

While many people have pointed out that Belker isn't a pure Barbarian and that using two weapon fighting tends to be less damage then a two handed weapon (Didn't use the abbreviations because it took me a moment to realise what the rest of you were on about :smallbiggrin: )

to answer your question: Yes a Halfling Barbarian IS possible/Survivable. Yes they get a minus on strength, and their weapon size is smaller. But a Halfling with a great axe power attacking you isn't shockingly different then a Human doing the same thing, bit less damage (but very very minor once they both have a few levels) bit better AC and + Hit.

Mounts = Riding Dog (Though I can't remember where but I am SURE there is a War Dog out there somewhere)

The main issue that a Halfing Barbarian (or any small Melee) class has is the -4 to most the combat type skills, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush. Ect

Though there are feats to help this out.
I hope this helps answer your question.

P.S Psychotic Halflings are ALWAYS a joke, and one I enjoy :smallbiggrin:

Once as a DM I had a town run by an NPC Halfling Barbarian called Krull The Warrior King. Some members of the party where so disdainful and rude that they actually got into a fight which very nearly killed them all. Lesson they learned is Class Levels make up for size difference... or to put it another way "Don't **** with a Psychotic Halfing with a big axe

[ScionoftheVoid]

As a sidenote, I'm not sure that you could build this:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/tn_MM35_PG27.jpg

Belkar is much more reasonable. I'll let people with much more experience and knowledge than I help with that, I'm afraid.

[Alienist]

Belkar isn't a single class Barbarian, he is a ranger with 1 or more levels of Barbarian thrown on top. I assume he is TWF + Powerattack, which isn't a great combo but Rich's world isn't exactly optimized.

I think you forgot his deity levels.

He is, after all, a sexy shoeless god of war. :smallbiggrin:

[Aasimar]

I LIKE the idea of a d&d world where optimization isn't expected or common.

A two-weapon fighting halfling ranger with some barbarian pleases me much more than one where he has a complicated gish build or scrounged up a pair of vorpal kukris.

He's high level, he's got pretty good combat stats, which means he's 'good enough'.

I wouldn't copy him for playing in a game where this d&d-forum-level of optimization is the norm. But neither would I play in such a game to begin with.

[Ranting Fool]

I LIKE the idea of a d&d world where optimization isn't expected or common.


+1

Some people like to use a lot of optimization (which is fine) but sometimes I just like to have an unlikly hero. A few actual flaws can be fun to play :smallsmile:

[Ernir]

I LIKE the idea of a d&d world where optimization isn't expected or common.

A two-weapon fighting halfling ranger with some barbarian pleases me much more than one where he has a complicated gish build or scrounged up a pair of vorpal kukris.

He's high level, he's got pretty good combat stats, which means he's 'good enough'.

Is he "good enough" when some basic CR-appropriate monster straight out of the monster manual beats him into a bloody pulp?

I, too, like the idea of a game where investing personal effort into making your character competent is not necessary. But sorry, 3.5 is not that game. You can't expect a 3.5 character with feats and other features chosen by the "whatever sounds cool at the time" method to be able to contribute. It just won't work unless the DM is scaling back the encounters.

3.5 "optimization" doesn't have to be complicated. Or inelegant. It's just a process with which you create a character that does what you want it to.

[Spiryt]

I think that the point is kinda that furious rage prone ranger with two knives to skewer stuff is not really very crazy idea as far as D&D character ideas go.

And yet, as seen by this thread, it's rather hard to pull it off sensibly.

[CTrees]

As has been said, though, the OotS world really isn't optimized (see: single-classed fighter, single-classed rogue, healbot cleric, conjuration-banning wizard, halfling ranger/barbarian, and a bard that's actually gotten some help with a homebrew class to... improve his solo melee abilities). Also, the main party usually gets thrown up against enemies they outlevel so extremely, they must usually only be gaining quest- and roleplay-experience (when they fight level appropriate enemies, they tend to have a very, very difficult time).

[Doug Lampert]

In core there's only a hair of difference in damage between TWF and THF damage output; high level core power attack is break even or reduces damage per round for example since attack bonus is more important than damage at high levels.

Attack bonus is important, sucks that TWF guy has to enhance two swords to one for THF guy, and then TWF guy needs to prioritorize dex to get his feats, so he's got less strength and therefore a lower attack bonus, and then TWF guy adds insult to the injury with a -2 to attack.

The normal use of power attack in THW/TWF discussions is to DELIBERATELY CRIPPLE the THW guy to have ONLY the same attack bonus as the TWF guy and remove hit chance from the equation, at which point it's obvious that THF guy does more damage.

But let's do it your way. 25 points on initial physical abilities, boosts to Str, level 9 fighters.

THW guy: 20 Str, 11 Dex, 14 Con
TWF guy: 19 Str, 15 Dex, 12 Con

THW guy gets a +2 strength item and +2 greatsword (12,350 GP).
TWF guy gets a +2 strength item, a +2 dex item (which he needs for improved TWF), and two +1 shortswords (12,620 GP, more than TWF guy).

They both get improved critical and the weapon focus line (it's core), that's 4 feats, then TWF gets two feats for his style, while THW gets one for his.

THW guy attacks at +19/+14 (9 BAB, 6 str, 2 enhancement, 2 feats), damage is 2d6+13 (9 str, 2 enchancement, 2 feats)

TWF guy attacks at +15/+10 twice (9 BAB, 5 str, 1 enhancement, 2 feats), damage is 1d6+8 for the main hand and 1d6+5 for the off hand

Damage is equal if everyone hits with the same chance, but THF guy is FOUR POINTS ahead on attack bonus, plus he's also spent fewer feats and less gold.

Comparing average full attack damage against AC, with crits included and accounting both for optimal PA and for no PA and we get the following:

AC THF PA NO PA TWF
20 45.36 4 40.8 32.4
21 42.12 3 39.6 30.0
22 39.00 3 37.2 27.6
23 36.00 2 34.8 25.2
24 33.12 2 32.4 22.8
25 30.36 1 30.0 20.4
26 27.72 1 27.6 18.0
27 25.20 0 25.2 15.6
28 22.80 0 22.8 13.2
29 20.40 0 20.4 10.8
30 18.00 0 18.0 8.4

It gets worse for AC above 30, for high AC the TWF damage is pretty consistently less than half the TWF. For low AC it's at least 20% less.

Less damage, more feats, more GP, less ability to deal with DR, far less utility in a single attack. What's the ADVANTAGE to TWF that I should be giving so much up to have it?

[Man in Black]

Anybody who mentions that the fact that Belkar isn't munchkinized is an unassailable drawback, I have two words for you.

Roleplaying. XP.


Elan: Actually, XP isn't a word. It's two letters. Or maybe an abbreviation, but then it's two words, and that's still a different thing from one word.

Shut up, Bard.

[eggs]

Anybody who mentions that the fact that Belkar isn't munchkinized is an unassailable drawback, I have two words for you.

Roleplaying. XP.
When my Lolth-Touched Tauric Half-Ogre Hulking Hurler was young, he was the smallest and the weakest. They would never let him play in their Lolth-Touched Tauric Half-Ogre games like Throw the Castle or Throw the Castle and Throw the Moon-Sized Hunk of Osmium shortly thereafter.

All he wanted to do was become a big strong adventurer and go out in the world where he would be accepted, and not scorned by his Lolth-Touched Tauric Half-Ogres brethren.

And then, one day, he could return to his home village
and throw it deep into the heart of Alpha Centauri. :smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

Anybody who mentions that the fact that Belkar isn't munchkinized is an unassailable drawback, I have two words for you.

Roleplaying. XP.

Roleplaying XP won't help you if the first CR-appropriate encounter you come across squishes you into halfling pulp. :smallwink:

Belkar is a great character. Sadly, he just can't pull his weight in an actual game (past level 8-10 or so) if the bad guys are played at any reasonable level of intelligence. I dunno about "unassailable", but it certainly is a drawback.

[Voyager_I]

Anybody who mentions that the fact that Belkar isn't munchkinized is an unassailable drawback, I have two words for you.

Roleplaying. XP.


Elan: Actually, XP isn't a word. It's two letters. Or maybe an abbreviation, but then it's two words, and that's still a different thing from one word.

Shut up, Bard.

There's a difference between "not munchkinized" and "poorly built to the point of being nearly dysfunctional".

Core melee classes in general and Two Weapon Fighters in particular need a decent amount of optimization just to be able to do their jobs past the early levels of play.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Check Out this build.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871422/Feral_Dreadlord:_SA,_TWF,_9th_Level_Maneuvers,_SAD _in_one_package

It's an awesome in your face two dagger sneak attacker with halfling as one of it's preferred races by one of the all time greats of CO. I used it for a character named Lucky the Halfling battle titan who regularly yelled "I am a sexy shoeless god of war!" and "I am too damned sexy for Yondalla to let me die!"