[3.5] How do you destroy a City? (No LCB or IHS or other silly shenanigans, please)

[INoKnowNames]

I'll be editing the description of this post once I get a response back. But first, I need to verify something:

Is this how to make a standard Locate City Bomb?

Locate City Spell from Races of Destiny is the spine of this tactic.
Snowcasting Feat from Frostburn (through a Move Action) to make Locate City [Cold].
Flash Frost Feat from Player's Handbook 2 to make a [Cold] spell do 2 extra damage (and force Balance Checks, but that's not important).
Energy Substitution Feat from Complete Arcane to change the Energy type of the [Cold] spell become [Electric].
Born of the Three Thunders from Complete Arcane to make the spell force a Reflex Save (and a fortitude save, and make it both [Electric] and [Sonic], but again, not important).
And Explosive Spell from Complete Arcane to make people take 1d6 damage per 10 ft of the spell's area, while pushing them to the end of that area.

Is this the standard Locate City Bomb?

Now that that question is answered, I'm not satisfied with the Locate City Bomb. There are a couple of reasons why this legitimately doesn't work, beyond simply the Dm throwing every single book used to attempt it at your head. And the Zombie Hoard version is only slightly better. I'll probably edit such concerns, ranging from rather strict reading of the rules to simple "do you honestly think that would work" logic, into this post.

If possible, I'd like actual, can work rules-as-written, the-only-thing-the-dm-can-do-is-say-"No", ways to blow up a city or larger. Apocalypse from the Sky (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/apocalypse-from-the-sky--131/) is certainly one, although part of me is a bit curious how many ways there is for someone who is neutral or good to pull this off.

So far, I've got...

*Apocalypse from the Sky
*Earthquake
*Wish
*Miracle
*Blizzard
*Control Weather

Anyother ways? Locate City Bomb is cute, but it's worse than Pun Pun to actually even consider pulling it off. I did some searching and found that Iron Heart Surge seems to also be one of those kinds of "things". I don't want shenanigans like that. I want actual collateral damage / kill a bunch of people affects.

And don't inject real world physics into this. Just don't.

[Malachei]

Yes. And of course easy to verify with your favorite search engine.

[Kazyan]

Yes. The cheaper version is Fell Drain Flash Frost (Snowcasting) Locate City, which doesn't cause property damage or stop anything with 2 or more HD, but the wightpocalypse afterward is hilarious.

[Madara]

Yes. The cheaper version is Fell Drain Flash Frost (Snowcasting) Locate City, which doesn't cause property damage or stop anything with 2 or more HD, but the wightpocalypse afterward is hilarious.

Yessir, when your players ask where the 'zombie' apocalypse came from, you merely laugh and say "It was completely RAW"

[absolmorph]

Yessir, when your players ask where the 'zombie' apocalypse came from, you merely laugh and say "It was completely RAW"
Unless, y'know, they're actually fighting zombies.

Also, the version you (INoKnowNames) posted is debated, as the interaction of a 2D area with 3D creatures is... Uncertain.

[Madara]

That's true, the area is debated because its a circle. That said, stick with the Wrightoclypse one, there's nothing wrong with it.

[INoKnowNames]

Yes. The cheaper version is Fell Drain Flash Frost (Snowcasting) Locate City, which doesn't cause property damage or stop anything with 2 or more HD, but the wightpocalypse afterward is hilarious.


That's true, the area is debated because its a circle. That said, stick with the Wrightoclypse one, there's nothing wrong with it.

How exactly does this one work? I tried to search for it, but got too many real life bombing city results beyond the basic Locate City Bomb. Any chance you could list it in detail the way I did the first one?


Also, the version you (INoKnowNames) posted is debated, as the interaction of a 2D area with 3D creatures is... Uncertain.

This was actually going to kinda be the point of the thread, but it might be a bit derailed by the Wight version if it actually works without shenanigans.

I wanted to ask about spells and such that actually enable the destruction of a targeted city, that wouldn't be capable of being immediately torn through by DM Rules as Written, Rules as Intended, and Rules as I Understand them, in addition to Fiat (and there seem to be far more holes than just Circle vs Sphere in the basic Locate City Bomb). Spells like Apocalypse from The Sky (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/apocalypse-from-the-sky--131/), which only has the issues of damage to yourself and some stat drains, neither of which are really a problem for a Level 17+ Caster. Add on an Earthquake (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/earthquake--2608/) (or Undermaster (http://dndtools.eu/spells/underdark--34/undermaster--3522/)), and that City is ****ed, much less Bombed.

[Lateral]

So, the basic Locate City Bomb as you have up there doesn't work, for a buncha reasons- even ignoring the circle-area argument (which, by the way, is perfectly valid) for now, using Energy Substitution makes it no longer a [Cold] spell, so you can no longer Flash Frost it. This part can be solved with Energy Admixture, but at this point it's a high-level spell. Also, people inside of buildings may not actually die, since they'll hit a wall early and stop moving.

Also, it's a circle, not a sphere, spread, burst, emanation, or whatever.

The wight thing still works though. Basically, you do everything up to and including Flash Frost, then apply Fell Drain. It's a fourth-level spell before reducers, if I remember correctly.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I always found the "Locate City doesn't actually locate cities" argument to be weird. I figured the material plane would be, y'know, a plane.

[Quietus]

I always found the "Locate City doesn't actually locate cities" argument to be weird. I figured the material plane would be, y'know, a plane.

I think it's more that, as a circle, the Locate City bomb's explosive-ness would eject players to the nearest non-effected point. Since a circle is 2D, that means everyone affected would pop upwards, above the effect briefly, rather than being thrown miles to the edge of the effect.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, I hadn't heard that one before. It's technically true, and doesn't rely on setting assumptions. Wonderful.

[DeAnno]

I think it's more that, as a circle, the Locate City bomb's explosive-ness would eject players to the nearest non-effected point. Since a circle is 2D, that means everyone affected would pop upwards, above the effect briefly, rather than being thrown miles to the edge of the effect.

That's a pretty wonderful counterargument there. I approve.

[Heatwizard]

How do you Flash Frost anything with Locate City? It doesn't target anything.

[Hecuba]

Another issue with the circle area is that it's not one of the area types listed as valid for explosive spell. Much like the 2d/3d argument, it's not clear enough that it removes the possibility of adjudication though: the list can just as easily be read as examples (since it's not marked).


How do you Flash Frost anything with Locate City? It doesn't target anything.

Most area spells don't. By that reading, you cannot flash frost ice storm. Or cone of cold. It would make the forced balance check element of the talent almost unusable.

[INoKnowNames]

Updated the first post. I'll give some responses and list my issues with Locate City Bomb and Locate City Frozen Zombies later.

[Heatwizard]

Most area spells don't. By that reading, you cannot flash frost ice storm. Or cone of cold. It would make the forced balance check element of the talent almost unusable.

Wouldn't be the first time something printed wasn't effective. I'm just saying, my years of Magic have taught me to be very careful about the word target, and nowhere in this spell description does it state it targets anything. It doesn't have "Target:" up in the list of stuff like duration, it doesn't say anything about targets in the description; it has to be house-ruled to work.

[Friv]

How exactly does this one work? I tried to search for it, but got too many real life bombing city results beyond the basic Locate City Bomb. Any chance you could list it in detail the way I did the first one?


*) Locate City Spell from Races of Destiny [Level 1 Spell]
*) Snowcasting Feat from Frostburn (through a Move Action) to make Locate City [Cold].
*) Flash Frost Feat from Player's Handbook 2 to make a [Cold] spell do 2 extra damage (and force Balance Checks, but that's not important).
*) Fell Drain Feat from Liber Mortis affects any spell that deals damage to also apply a negative level to the being damaged. [+2 levels, so now a Level 3 Spell]

I'm not quite sure how you get from there to the hordes of undead, though. By my reading, they would just take a negative level and every Level 1 person in the city would die.

[Hecuba]

Wouldn't be the first time something printed wasn't effective. I'm just saying, my years of Magic have taught me to be very careful about the word target, and nowhere in this spell description does it state it targets anything. It doesn't have "Target:" up in the list of stuff like duration, it doesn't say anything about targets in the description; it has to be house-ruled to work.

That's the thing-- Flash Frost spell affects area spells, and area spells don't take a target. I'm hesitant to say that there are none that take one, but if there is an area spell that designates the affected characters as targets it would represent an equal lapse in editing. It's not that it doesn't work for this purpose, but rather that it doesn't work at all under your reading.

Moreover, the explosive spell chain is not actually dependent on FFS. You can get there through Blistering Spell too.

D&D doesn't have nearly the editing attention to rules and reserved terms that MTG does. While the reading you suggest is supportable by logical parsing, it breaks the FFS feat for all properly edited spells and fails to break the Locate City Bomb in any meaningful way.

[absolmorph]

*) Locate City Spell from Races of Destiny [Level 1 Spell]
*) Snowcasting Feat from Frostburn (through a Move Action) to make Locate City [Cold].
*) Flash Frost Feat from Player's Handbook 2 to make a [Cold] spell do 2 extra damage (and force Balance Checks, but that's not important).
*) Fell Drain Feat from Liber Mortis affects any spell that deals damage to also apply a negative level to the being damaged. [+2 levels, so now a Level 3 Spell]

I'm not quite sure how you get from there to the hordes of undead, though. By my reading, they would just take a negative level and every Level 1 person in the city would die.
Ta-da! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)
(Death by negative levels causes you to rise as a wight)

[Malachei]

Yes. The cheaper version is Fell Drain Flash Frost (Snowcasting) Locate City, which doesn't cause property damage or stop anything with 2 or more HD, but the wightpocalypse afterward is hilarious.

The poor Necromancer's version of Locate City Bomb ;)

[Heatwizard]

That's the thing-- Flash Frost spell affects area spells, and area spells don't take a target. I'm hesitant to say that there are none that take one, but if there is an area spell that designates the affected characters as targets it would represent an equal lapse in editing. It's not that it doesn't work for this purpose, but rather that it doesn't work at all under your reading.

Moreover, the explosive spell chain is not actually dependent on FFS. You can get there through Blistering Spell too.

D&D doesn't have nearly the editing attention to rules and reserved terms that MTG does. While the reading you suggest is supportable by logical parsing, it breaks the FFS feat for all properly edited spells and fails to break the Locate City Bomb in any meaningful way.

This trick is built upon taking advantage of poor editing, you can't combine 'this is how it was written' and 'oh this is obviously how they intended it' into one sentence, because then you run into the issue that Locate City wasn't written to carry damage effects. And "target" still means something specific (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) in D&D.

And what does blistering spell get you? It doesn't say it damages everything in the radius; if anything, my kneejerk reaction is that since Locate City grants you the ability to sense the nearest town, you're the one who gets burned.

[Malachei]

That Locate City Bomb is not RAI is obvious. It is often mentioned in "funny" Theoretical Optimization discussions. Whether it works RAW or not, I'd never allow this in my game. Though I'd really like to meet a DM who would actually allow this (and find out why).

Actually, is there anybody here who would?

[absolmorph]

That Locate City Bomb is not RAI is obvious. It is often mentioned in "funny" Theoretical Optimization discussions. Whether it works RAW or not, I'd never allow this in my game. Though I'd really like to meet a DM who would actually allow this (and find out why).

Actually, is there anybody here who would?
I would allow the Wightocalypse version, but not the Explosive Spell version (because the area of Locate City is a 2D shape and not a 3D one).

[Hecuba]

This trick is built upon taking advantage of poor editing, you can't combine 'this is how it was written' and 'oh this is obviously how they intended it' into one sentence, because then you run into the issue that Locate City wasn't written to carry damage effects. And "target" still means something specific (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) in D&D.

I never said that target wasn't a reserved term-- I said that reserved terms aren't given as much editing attention in D&D as they are in Magic.

Again, my point isn't that I like LCB working, nor that your parsing of FFS is not logically internally sound.
My point is as follows: while your reading of FFS is internally logically consistent, it

Does not of itself break LCB
Breaks FFS in a way that is generally undesirable
Breaks FFS in a way that is exceedingly likely not to be intended (as it would result in there being no effect of striking 1/2 the rules text thereof).



And what does blistering spell get you? It doesn't say it damages everything in the radius; if anything, my kneejerk reaction is that since Locate City grants you the ability to sense the nearest town, you're the one who gets burned.

I believe the Rules Compendium clears this up: if a spell has an area, creatures in the area are under it's effects unless specifically noted otherwise. I'd need to have the book handy to check the wording though, which I don't.

Regardless, it looks like you're trying to undermine LCB - almost universally accepted as bad and unintended effect of poor editing - by adopting positions that are themselves reliant on poor (arguably worse) editing.
Limiting only to the 3 methods for LCB I know off the top of my head, the level of rigor you are suggesting would result in 1 broken feat and 2 broken PrCs instead of one broken spell/feat combination (this if that rigor is applied only to elements directly involves in some LCB enabling option- a broader application has many more problems).

I'm not particularly arguing for the LCB in this: my point is that the reading you are using as a premise (a strict reading of the interaction between the target keyword, area spells, and creatures/objects within the effected area of a spell) is HUGELY problematic in and of itself. Adopting that as a general position, even for RAW debates, would a migraine and a half.

As I noted before, yes, it does have internal logical consistency. That, of itself, does not make it a rational premise. It is not rational to adopt a solution that causes more problems than it fixes.

[Malachei]

I would allow the Wightocalypse version, but not the Explosive Spell version (because the area of Locate City is a 2D shape and not a 3D one).

Really? Why would you let a non-epic PC or NPC destroy life in a city-sized area?



In particular, is there anyway to -delay- such an affect before launching it? Possible while powering it up in the process? And can 9th Level Spells be Powered Up through Metamagic Reducers in Conjunction with Metamagic Feats?

1. Delay Spell (metamagic feat)
2. Yes, if you have spell slots above 9th level, or if the level adjustment is 0.

But in general, I'd say blowing up cities should be the province of epic spells.

[Hecuba]

Edit: Didn't catch the update before responding


In particular, is there anyway to -delay- such an affect before launching it? Possible while powering it up in the process? And can 9th Level Spells be Powered Up through Metamagic Reducers in Conjunction with Metamagic Feats?

There are lots of ways to delay casting for such spells. My favorite would be Gem Magic from Magic of Faerun. Because divine lists are generally better for leveling cities, you probably want to go with Mystic Wanderer 3.

[Telok]

If possible, I'd like actual, can work rules-as-written, the-only-thing-the-dm-can-do-is-say-"No", ways to blow up a city or larger.

A druid casting Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) (metamagic Extended is optional) can destroy a city.

A caster level 15+ Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) with Extend and Widen can do a decent job on a large area.

For reference here is the Wind Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) table.

[Alienist]

How do you Flash Frost anything with Locate City? It doesn't target anything.

Surely it targets the city that is being located? (if any)

And I'm not sure how giving a negative level or even two is supposed to hurt a bunch of buildings.

Mechanically speaking, and by RAW, what would happen if you hit a building (say for instance a castle wall) with an Enervation?

[Hecuba]

Surely it targets the city that is being located? (if any)

Nope. It allows you to sense the distance and direction of the nearest city withing the affected circular area. As a general rule, area spells do not take targets-- they affect objects/creatures within the area. This is why, of course, the flash-frost spell wording is a great example of poor editing.

EDIT: While there are several examples of poor editing in the several versions of the LCB, that's not (in my opinion) the underlying issue. The underlying issue would seem to be that many spells with an area field, particularly divination spells, aren't written with any attention to affecting creatures within the area. Simply structuring these spells in terms of range instead would have side-stepped all the problems.

As it is, even if you make LCB go away, you can still have a Snowcasting, Energy Substitution(fire), Blistering, Fell Drain Detect Hidden Doors. 60 foot long cone-- every time someone enters the cone, they become affected by the spell, taking 2 fire damage and a negative level. Lasts 1 minute/level. Toss on Arcane thesis and it's a 2nd level slot. Detect magic be a 1 and Detect Evil&Co would last longer, but they bring the potential for overwhelming auras.

[Golden Ladybug]

That Locate City Bomb is not RAI is obvious. It is often mentioned in "funny" Theoretical Optimization discussions. Whether it works RAW or not, I'd never allow this in my game. Though I'd really like to meet a DM who would actually allow this (and find out why).

Actually, is there anybody here who would?

I would, and in fact, I have. Recently-ish, I let one of my players use the Wightpocalypse version in a game.

He was playing an Artificer, and made a Wand of it. He used it all of once, to wipe out one of the most populous cities in the campaign world... and was promptly eaten by Wights as he and the rest of the Party tried to escape the havoc they had wrought. I didn't even intend that to happen, but he failed some crucial roles when they were fighting their way out, and he got level drained a lot.

Karma's a b*tch, ain't it? :smalltongue:

[Malachei]

Sure. But why allow it in the first place? If you want to give your characters the opportunity to destroy the campaign setting, you can have them use an artifact (when low-level) or epic spellcasting (when epic).

Otherwise, you're just creating a precedent any player can use.

[Yora]

Also, the version you (INoKnowNames) posted is debated, as the interaction of a 2D area with 3D creatures is... Uncertain.
My main objection is against adding the cold descriptor to a divination, but RAW says it does. But then Flash Frost "deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area". Which implies it requires basic damage and it also requires creatures and structures to be targets. Locate City does not have any targets.

[Grendus]

Sure. But why allow it in the first place? If you want to give your characters the opportunity to destroy the campaign setting, you can have them use an artifact (when low-level) or epic spellcasting (when epic).

Otherwise, you're just creating a precedent any player can use.

Why homebrew when the rules already exist to do what you want? Sounds like this was a sandbox campaign and the DM thought it would be funny. I see no problem with this, the players are actively seeking to add more flavor to the campaign world by creating an entire city of undead. That's friggin' awesome! And, after the party wipe, it leads to a perfect plot hook for your next campaign - either clearing away the wights or causing a global wightocalypse. The precedent is only dangerous if your players are unreasonable and would demand it again. Judging by the effect though, I doubt they will, being wiped by your own spell is a strong detriment to doing it again.

[Parra]

If you are being pedantic about the definition of a circle (as many RAW arguements tend to be) then you could argue about what angle is the 2D circle taken; Horizontal, vertical or some angle inbetween? Or, since it doesnt specify, all of them?

Stritcly speaking, by RAW, no angle is specified. You could argue that it obviously means Horizontally, but does that not then drift into RAI territory?

[2xMachina]

My main objection is against adding the cold descriptor to a divination, but RAW says it does. But then Flash Frost "deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area". Which implies it requires basic damage and it also requires creatures and structures to be targets. Locate City does not have any targets.

Neither does ANY area spell. Hence, Flash Frost never works with area spells.

Please correct me if there's any area spells with target.

[CTrees]

If you are being pedantic about the definition of a circle (as many RAW arguements tend to be) then you could argue about what angle is the 2D circle taken; Horizontal, vertical or some angle inbetween? Or, since it doesnt specify, all of them?

Stritcly speaking, by RAW, no angle is specified. You could argue that it obviously means Horizontally, but does that not then drift into RAI territory?

And if a two dimensional, horizontal circle is correct, we're back to the "Locate City can't locate cities" argument.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm inclined to believe, simply by what Locate City and Flash Frost must mean (in order to function) that the LCB works. However, my players are told something very simple, up front: I'm fine with high-op, but gamebreaking TO tricks? Inevitables exist in my campaigns. Inevitables that really, really don't like the rules of the world be snapped in half, and who may have class levels appropriate to counter the specific threats they are sent out to end.

[Yora]

Neither does ANY area spell. Hence, Flash Frost never works with area spells.

Please correct me if there's any area spells with target.
My main point is, that RAW is useless. In an open ended game with infinite posibilities, making assumptions about what the creator intended is indispensible. RAW can't be argued with, while RAI is speculation, but that's the only reason RAW is paid any attention at all. It's a good way to figure out what the creator wanted something to do, but it's not the final word.

[Malachei]

Well, Flash Frost Spell is applied to area spells:


This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area.

It then deals more damage to targets in the area. As a spell that has an area and is targeted is the exception (*), I'd say this is a double application of sloppy feat wording and not RAI to limit it to spells meeting the double prerequisite of affecting area AND being targeted.

IMO, RAI is to apply this to spells with the "Area:" entry.

(*) Horrid Wilting, for instance, is targeted and specifies an area for the targets to be in, but that means it is still a targeted spell (like Slow, and others), in the sense of having a "Targets:" entry, not an "Area:" entry.

I agree with Yora, however, that the "extra" clause could be interpreted as hinting that there is already base damage. Unfortunately, the feat doesn't say so.

And of course RAW are a mess, sometimes, and basing a game purely on RAW, with no other limits (nice things like consistency and such) can lead to awkward in-game situations. And nobody knows RAI, so indeed we can only speculate. This is what we are doing, and if nobody cared, the forum would be a lot less busy, I guess.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I am a big fan of the Locate City bomb.

I've used it for BBEG's as well as a player once.

I have issue with the 2d/3d argument:
Lets say it is a 2d circle. rather then a sphere shape. if that is the case. Then the spell doesn't work. As any hill or bump in the world that rose higher then the (physics)Plane you cast it on. in a gully or a dungion the spell is useless. In order of the spell (with out LCB) to work it has to be a 3d space.

The issue with FF.. Ya that's poor editing. The fact that it requires a target and is an area... makes it almost useless. That's why I rule/interpret it as using any area spell rather one that is an Area and targeting.


Also dont forget LCB is not that broken... there are so many ways to get around taking any damage.



Lastly: Some one mentioned(can't find post) something about it not working due to the Meta feat that alters the Type from cold to electric. The reason it does work is that the Stacking rules allow you to order anything so that it is most favorable to the PC's. I wish i could find a link to that rule but I am at work right now.

[Particle_Man]

Your thread title is kinda scary. I mean, what, REAL? Like in Washington? Atlanta? :smallfrown:

[INoKnowNames]

Your thread title is kinda scary. I mean, what, REAL? Like in Washington? Atlanta? :smallfrown:

How should I update the title then to avoid that, and to try to drive away any more random conversation? I'm looking for actual ways to be able to blow up a city, and while cute, the Locate City Bomb is filled with more holes than swiss cheese. I honestly don't even want to hear about the basic Locate City Bomb. It's fundamentally flawed, at least RAI, let alone a handful of RAW arguments

I don't want shenanigans. I want destruction and devestation on a level wide enough to be able to cause panic among the survivors and those that hear of it. I can understand if what I'm looking for is 9th level and Epic Level spellcasting only, but being able to do so before that would be cool, too. Any ways for good guys to pwn an evil base would be good too, since my favorite so far seems to be limited to evil guys...

[Urpriest]

Blizzard (Frostburn) is another excellent spell for city destruction. Dumping 10+ feet of snow in less than a minute will collapse an unprepared city. Add in one of the spells that plunges the area into weeks of winter and you'll freeze any city south of tropics.

[doko239]

Simple yet shenanigans-y answer: Cast a Gate spell in the center of the town, with the other end of the Gate located at the core of a star in the other plane. Instant thermonuclear bomb.

Alternatively, use True Creation to create 1 cu. foot of Antimatter per caster level.

No dice involved in either of these situations, simply wipe the city off the map.

[tyckspoon]

Blizzard (Frostburn) is another excellent spell for city destruction. Dumping 10+ feet of snow in less than a minute will collapse an unprepared city. Add in one of the spells that plunges the area into weeks of winter and you'll freeze any city south of tropics.

One should note that Blizzard gets a lot of its potential area clipped off, because the writer forgot how Range and Area interact, and it's still a relatively small area compared to a full city. Dropping it on top of a few key business centers/travel intersections can still destroy important city functions, however- shut down the port on a coastal city or block off all the gates in a walled city, destroy major markets, etc. Still doesn't have quite the "one day it was there, next day it was a ghost town/deathrap full of wights" impact of a Locate City Bomb.

Fimbulwinter is pretty good, although it takes a while. If you cast it over a city that's already in winter season/in a cold climate they get 4-48 (Maximize this if you can) weeks where they're nearly guaranteed to get additional *feet* of snow every single day. If you want to stick around it, combine it with Control Weather castings to ensure killing temperatures and/or extra snow.

[INoKnowNames]

Simple yet shenanigans-y answer: Cast a Gate spell in the center of the town, with the other end of the Gate located at the core of a star in the other plane. Instant thermonuclear bomb.

Alternatively, use True Creation to create 1 cu. foot of Antimatter per caster level.

No dice involved in either of these situations, simply wipe the city off the map.

I will be ammending the title yet again: (No LCB or IHS or other silly shenanigans), since that apparently wasn't clear.

I don't want my laptop thrown at me. I simply want to be able to point to the spell or affects in question and have the dm be able to read something reasonable, before people start making saving throws (or start recording damage).


Blizzard (Frostburn) is another excellent spell for city destruction. Dumping 10+ feet of snow in less than a minute will collapse an unprepared city. Add in one of the spells that plunges the area into weeks of winter and you'll freeze any city south of tropics.

.... that seems to be the lowest level suggestion so far. I'd have thought that to be a 9th level... it's only 5th, a full around action, and a nice hundred foot radius per level... I kinda like it.

If only there was something with a bit more kick to it. I kinda want a "Death from Above" / "Tokyo Fireball" like affect. But that's still a pretty good spell.


One should note that Blizzard gets a lot of its potential area clipped off, because the writer forgot how Range and Area interact, and it's still a relatively small area compared to a full city.

I actually fail to see the problem, other than that you'd eventually be caught in the affect.


Still doesn't have quite the "one day it was there, next day it was a ghost town/deathrap full of wights" impact of a Locate City Bomb.

Too bad the LCB doesn't get it unless permitted, either.


Fimbulwinter is pretty good, although it takes a while. If you cast it over a city that's already in winter season/in a cold climate they get 4-48 (Maximize this if you can) weeks where they're nearly guaranteed to get additional *feet* of snow every single day. If you want to stick around it, combine it with Control Weather castings to ensure killing temperatures and/or extra snow.

If I hadn't been looking for more "instant death blowing up everything else", I'd be trying to stat Mr. Freeze right about now....

[Shadowknight12]

If the city is near a water source, Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWater.htm) can and will destroy it. Never underestimate the power of a flood.

You can also take advantage of the falling rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) to fly up above the city and start using Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) to conjure enormous blocks of adamantium (or just plain old rock) and bombard the city from above. You could also use minor creation, I believe, but bombarding things with wood seems a bit strange.

If you have the time, you can basically collapse an entire city by patiently casting Move Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/moveEarth.htm) over and over. Just remove the earth from under a building until it collapses. Repeat until the city is destroyed or you get bored. Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) can turn a city built on a solid stratum of rock into a swamp.

My personal strategy would be to combine all of this with Control Winds, Blizzard, Earthquake and the other examples above to make the destruction swifter and more lethal.

I would like to point out that most if not all of these spells are on the Druid list. Hire or convince a druid cabal to help you and you're done. Fear the druids!

[Randomguy]

Doesn't apocalypse from the sky have an artifact as a material component? Would ANYONE be willing to destroy one to wipe out one measly town?
Now that I think of it, the spell is useful for the purpose of destroying artifacts, since that normally requires a ritual or some special materials.

Shadowcasters have Black Labyrinth, which makes it so that people don't even have control over the direction in which they walk. (and teleporting results in mishaps) In a tree village, fishing village or mountain village or anywhere with natural hazards that are normally easy to avoid this would be deadly, but it normally probably won't kill anyone.

It might, though, since the spell lasts a few days. Cast this on a small city or town and it becomes a sitting duck. It won't be long until invaders, pirates or wild animals just wipe the whole place out.

[Aeryr]

Just out of curiosity how the hell do you destroy a city with Iron Heart Surge?

[Agent 451]

Fimbulwinter is pretty good, but what you really need is a Major Iceheart. It will cast Fimbulwinter automatically, everyday.

Edit: If your party can somehow manage to deflect an asteroid so that it collides with a city (Spelljammer and Animate Object, maybe?). There happens to be a book by Malhavoc Press that deals with the aftermath of these impacts, but I don't know if it deals how to cause them.

[Toy Killer]

With the capstone of walker in the waste, you're a Dry-Lich with no need to eat or sleep. you could supress your uber-hot zone and go into the city. bury yourself in the ground (or just simply hide your nature, I guess) and release the heat.

when crops and water dries up, life follows. then a well applied hammer to the walls of the city will take care of the rest.

[Roguenewb]

Doesn't apocalypse from the sky have an artifact as a material component? Would ANYONE be willing to destroy one to wipe out one measly town?
Now that I think of it, the spell is useful for the purpose of destroying artifacts, since that normally requires a ritual or some special materials.

Shadowcasters have Black Labyrinth, which makes it so that people don't even have control over the direction in which they walk. (and teleporting results in mishaps) In a tree village, fishing village or mountain village or anywhere with natural hazards that are normally easy to avoid this would be deadly, but it normally probably won't kill anyone.

It might, though, since the spell lasts a few days. Cast this on a small city or town and it becomes a sitting duck. It won't be long until invaders, pirates or wild animals just wipe the whole place out.

By being a level 4 dweomerkeeper, thats how. Never forget the lowly dweomerkeeper, and his ability to do whatever-the-f*$% he wants.

[doko239]

Ok, this won't truly destroy a city, but it'll kill just about everyone inside, which is good enough. You will require the Widen and Sculpt Spell feats, and 8 9th-level spell slots.

Stand in the center square of the city to be depopulated. Cast 8 Sculpted Widened Cloudkill spells (each taking the form of a 240-foot line), one in each direction, with the line perpendicular to your line of sight and centered relative to yourself.

Cloudkill spells move away from their point of origin at a rate of 10 feet per round, and the description does not specify that they dissipate after leaving your range. Assuming a 20th-level caster, after 20 minutes your waves of Cloudkill will have covered a roughly circular area with a radius of 2000 feet, likely killing anything under 6 hd instantly.

Edit: Just realized the math doesn't check out on the covered area, it'll look more like a pie with a bunch of slices taken out. Of course, you could simply cast more Cloudkills to fill in the gaps, but 8 9th level slots is already a lot of magic.

Edit again: In order to fully cover the entire 2000-foot radius circle, you'd need 26 castings of Widened Sculpted Cloudkill. Yikes.

Edit the third: If you use Heighten Spell and Sculpt Spell instead, then you only need 52 spell slots total between 6th and 9th level; probably more manageable, although you'll be spending the better part of 6 minutes in the town square going about this.

[Chronos]

Do you want to kill the inhabitants, destroy the buildings, or both?

Is it OK if there are a handful of lucky and/or tough survivors?

Does it have to be all at once, or is casting multiple spells acceptable? If multiple, how many? How about a single act that takes a while to develop (like, say, a nasty disease)?

How big is the city (both in terms of population, and in terms of area)?

[Averis Vol]

1) be a druid.
2)take leadership to get a druid companion.
3) fly high above the city in some kind of bird form (extra points if you can bring your companions too)
4) wildshape into a dire whale (might be a pathfinder creature actually) or the biggest animal you can find.
5) fall on city, crushing the inhabitants and sending shockwaves from the impact rippling throughout the city :smallbiggrin:

on a serious not why not just rain widened fireballs down upon the city? it will annihilate any commoner even on a min roll and can kill most moderate level npc's.

[killem2]

Do you know what kind of city is this? Is it possible to just use good old fashion arson?

[gomipile]

Using Minor Creation to make many cubic feet of Black Lotus Poison and then spread it throughout the city is a popular method.

[INoKnowNames]

If the city is near a water source, Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWater.htm) can and will destroy it. Never underestimate the power of a flood.

Coulda sworn there were ways to make Tidal Waves.... but yes, flooding people is cool.

Y
ou can also take advantage of the falling rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) to fly up above the city and start using Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) to conjure enormous blocks of adamantium (or just plain old rock) and bombard the city from above. You could also use minor creation, I believe, but bombarding things with wood seems a bit strange.

If only I could make something that would explode on the way down, that would make me a very happy camper...


If you have the time, you can basically collapse an entire city by patiently casting Move Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/moveEarth.htm) over and over. Just remove the earth from under a building until it collapses. Repeat until the city is destroyed or you get bored. Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) can turn a city built on a solid stratum of rock into a swamp.

My personal strategy would be to combine all of this with Control Winds, Blizzard, Earthquake and the other examples above to make the destruction swifter and more lethal.

I was hoping for a Cleric, and for a while thought I was expecting a Wizard, but it's starting to sound like actually killing people and destroying cities is a Druid's job...


I would like to point out that most if not all of these spells are on the Druid list. Hire or convince a druid cabal to help you and you're done. Fear the druids!

Hm....


Doesn't apocalypse from the sky have an artifact as a material component?

Looking back, between the material component (I was thinking simply Evil Holy Symbol or other such thing, but isn't an Artifact like -the- rarest kind of item? Freaking sacred batteries...


Would ANYONE be willing to destroy one to wipe out one measly town?

.... *innocent huming*


Now that I think of it, the spell is useful for the purpose of destroying artifacts, since that normally requires a ritual or some special materials.

.... what an unintended yet hilariously interesting side effect: get rid of sacred items and blow up a city.


Shadowcasters have Black Labyrinth, which makes it so that people don't even have control over the direction in which they walk. (and teleporting results in mishaps) In a tree village, fishing village or mountain village or anywhere with natural hazards that are normally easy to avoid this would be deadly, but it normally probably won't kill anyone.

It might, though, since the spell lasts a few days. Cast this on a small city or town and it becomes a sitting duck. It won't be long until invaders, pirates or wild animals just wipe the whole place out.

Eh. Sounds interesting, but I've no idea where to find Shadowcasters, and I'm looking for something a bit more... flashy.


Just out of curiosity how the hell do you destroy a city with Iron Heart Surge?

There was a page were people made a bunch of silly suggestions about ruining various things using Iron Heart Surge.

"Play a Vampire."
"Walk into Sunlight."
"Iron Heart Surge."
"???"
"Profit!"

And other stuff like that.


Fimbulwinter is pretty good, but what you really need is a Major Iceheart. It will cast Fimbulwinter automatically, everyday.

Noted.


Edit: If your party can somehow manage to deflect an asteroid so that it collides with a city (Spelljammer and Animate Object, maybe?). There happens to be a book by Malhavoc Press that deals with the aftermath of these impacts, but I don't know if it deals how to cause them.

Any chance you know what book this might be?


With the capstone of walker in the waste, you're a Dry-Lich with no need to eat or sleep. you could supress your uber-hot zone and go into the city. bury yourself in the ground (or just simply hide your nature, I guess) and release the heat.

when crops and water dries up, life follows. then a well applied hammer to the walls of the city will take care of the rest.

A Dry-Lich? I didn't think Liches were anything but skeletons that could regenerate unless their souls were destroyed..


Ok, this won't truly destroy a city, but it'll kill just about everyone inside, which is good enough. You will require the Widen and Sculpt Spell feats, and 8 9th-level spell slots.

Stand in the center square of the city to be depopulated. Cast 8 Sculpted Widened Cloudkill spells (each taking the form of a 240-foot line), one in each direction, with the line perpendicular to your line of sight and centered relative to yourself.

Cloudkill spells move away from their point of origin at a rate of 10 feet per round, and the description does not specify that they dissipate after leaving your range. Assuming a 20th-level caster, after 20 minutes your waves of Cloudkill will have covered a roughly circular area with a radius of 2000 feet, likely killing anything under 6 hd instantly.

Edit: Just realized the math doesn't check out on the covered area, it'll look more like a pie with a bunch of slices taken out. Of course, you could simply cast more Cloudkills to fill in the gaps, but 8 9th level slots is already a lot of magic.

Edit again: In order to fully cover the entire 2000-foot radius circle, you'd need 26 castings of Widened Sculpted Cloudkill. Yikes.

Edit the third: If you use Heighten Spell and Sculpt Spell instead, then you only need 52 spell slots total between 6th and 9th level; probably more manageable, although you'll be spending the better part of 6 minutes in the town square going about this.

Only need 52 Spell Slots Total. That's just plain inefficient. I want to be able to erase a city from a map as soon as possible! I want genocide!


Do you want to kill the inhabitants, destroy the buildings, or both?

Is it OK if there are a handful of lucky and/or tough survivors?

Does it have to be all at once, or is casting multiple spells acceptable? If multiple, how many? How about a single act that takes a while to develop (like, say, a nasty disease)?

How big is the city (both in terms of population, and in terms of area)?

I suppose these are good questions I should have answered a while ago.

I'd honestly say I'd prefer both... with maybe a bit more emphasis on the buildings, actually. The chaos and bedlem of people trying to survive the aftermath of almost dying and their homes being erradicated... sounds kinda nice, actually.

Survivors are fine OOC but an annoyance IC. Adventurers and Encounters can easily be spawned off of people wanting a piece of the megalomaniac that destroyed their home.

I'd prefer as few spells cast as possible, if only for the style factor. I'm surprised Wizards haven't been able to invent a magical nuke yet...

And I haven't really thought much about the size of the city. I just assumed if I could oblitterate any city, I could oblitterate every city.


1) be a druid.
2)take leadership to get a druid companion.
3) fly high above the city in some kind of bird form (extra points if you can bring your companions too)
4) wildshape into a dire whale (might be a pathfinder creature actually) or the biggest animal you can find.
5) fall on city, crushing the inhabitants and sending shockwaves from the impact rippling throughout the city :smallbiggrin:

on a serious not why not just rain widened fireballs down upon the city? it will annihilate any commoner even on a min roll and can kill most moderate level npc's.

That's actually starting to look like a rather tempting option, actually. I wish there were more Cleric options, though.


Do you know what kind of city is this? Is it possible to just use good old fashion arson?

Arson's fun, but it's usually a "sneaky" thing. I'm looking for more Atomic Bomb kinda thing. Any nut can go burn things down. It takes someone depraved to see how much collateral damage he can get. Gotta get that high score!

[Shadowknight12]

If only I could make something that would explode on the way down, that would make me a very happy camper...

Then create cubic blocks of Alchemist's Fire. It has no "punch" (since it's liquid) but it WILL set everything and everyone on fire. Alternatively, get two arcanists to cast the same spell simultaneously to rain both Alchemist's Fire AND adamantium upon the unsuspecting city. That way, you have a rain of enormous blocks (or spheres) of adamantium on goddamn fire. You can apply metamagic cheese (Twin and Repeat, mainly) to get 4 versions of the same spell with every casting, but you will need metamagic reducers. I personally recommend sorcerers, since this whole "spamming the same spell over and over again" is pretty much tailor-made for them.


I was hoping for a Cleric, and for a while thought I was expecting a Wizard, but it's starting to sound like actually killing people and destroying cities is a Druid's job...

Nothing destroys civilisation better than nature. Druids are the masters of nature. Do the math!

Having said that, if you want to rain destruction from above, you'll need a sorcerer (as I explain above). You may not kill everyone or even destroy every last building, but you'll get the job done in the flashiest possible way. Druids are better at getting the job done in the most efficient and absolute way. It may not be flashy, but a druid will get every last person and every last building in the city. And hey, some natural disasters can be pretty flashy too.

[Darth Stabber]

Nothing destroys civilization better than nature. Druids are the masters of nature. Do the math!

Yeah, that's pretty much the druid's shtick. Between them and barbarians, there is a lot of hatred of the soft ways of city folk.

[Yora]

Best way to destroy a city is to use a noun that is also a verb:

Torch it!

Preventing effective firefighting shouldn't be to hard if you have some magical resources at hand. You don't even need to defeat the cities troops and magical defenses. You just have to stall them a bit.

[Feralventas]

I recall two specific instances when, as a Player, I caused massive amounts of destruction with a fairly low-level character.

The 1st was in a 2nd edition game, in which I had fallen into a position of authority and used it to commission a secret project involving an abducted and intimidated apothecary, a spell-failure-addled magic-user, and A Lot Of Poison.
The party agreed to spending about 6 month's time in the city while the materials were being brought together and finally, we rolled out several carts full of barrels of poisons. We then had our mad mage wait a specific amount of time while we high-tailed it out of town.
The fireballs detonated before we got out of the city, and I got to enjoy my pixie-faiery racial by getting reborn 4 months later after succumbing to what was effectively a city-wide spray of mustard gas. 90% population loss.

The more recent one was in the Song of Fire and Ice setting. Our 5th level druid was convinced to use Stone to Earth on the area of the Twins supporting one of the major towers. A few minutes of natural water erosion later, the rock-turned-mud couldn't support a castle, and there is no longer much of a bridge there.

[Darth Stabber]

Best way to destroy a city is to use a noun that is also a verb:

Torch it!

Preventing effective firefighting shouldn't be to hard if you have some magical resources at hand. You don't even need to defeat the cities troops and magical defenses. You just have to stall them a bit.

I can't believe that it took this long to come up this answer(and I am jealous because I didn't think of it first). Elegant in it's simplicity, and a low level party could do it easily. Good show, I award you with one internet, and 2 intranets.

[ILM]

While not the outright blow-****-up destruction discussed in here, I've always been partial to death by cold. Fimbulwinter + Cold Snap (SpC) is pretty sure to bring any place within a 1-mile radius down to -20°F, which according to Frostburn means everyone must make a Fort Save every 10 minutes, DC 15 +1 per previous check, or take 1d6 cold damage. Clothing helps mitigate it, and enough layers allows you to survive - but chances are most cities don't anticipate being plunged into arctic conditions overnight. (Actually, -20°F is both Severe Cold and Extreme Cold in Frostburn, due to poor editing. If you consider it's the Extreme Cold band, then it's 1d6 cold damage every 10 minutes, no save, and you need even more protection to survive it).

For added crunchyness, Cold Snap is as valid as Locate City for application of Flash Frost. And you can always slap on a Blizzard on top.

[Fyermind]

From an inhospitable place such as the middle off a volcano or high pressure part of the ocean: Teleportation Circle.

Laugh as magma or water rush through the streets crushing everything before it.

Not good enough? Find a plane with even worse magma or higher water pressure. GATE.


To kill off a city entirely the easiest method is to remove their water supply. Contaminating it is probably easier than making it go away entirely (though animating their water and having it wander off would be pretty funny) so look to ways to pollute large quantities of water quickly.

Earth elementals are unstoppable to normal folks as they can walk through stone walls pop in and out of floors, and hit really freaking hard. Summoning/binding a few of them may be a solid way of terrorizing a city.

Permanent Symbol of Persuasion at each major entrance with the charm to stay in the city and that everyone is trying to kill them so they must be proactive will create total chaos very quickly. It requires a level 14 caster spend a few minutes, a 5th level spell slot and a 6th level spell slot and 3000 xp at each gate.

Conjure and release several Magmins. Watch fire and destruction ensue. For greater frivolity place illusions to conceal your fire inducing friends.

Bestow Greater Curse has some interesting options such that if the target dies someone else will be affected. It can create diseases that spread quickly and have difficult saves. You could wipe out a city in a few weeks with the plague that way.

[doko239]

Ok, here's a plan that can be used by either an Arcane Caster or a Cleric with Trickery domain.

Gather a handful of pebbles from wherever. Fly over the target city, at a fairly high altitude to ensure terminal velocity. Take one pebble, cast Polymorph Any Object to transform it into a Colossal chunk of Adamantine, which then falls and crushes anything below, causing massive devastation in a huge radius. Repeat as needed.

Edit: nevermind the Adamantine bit, just read the "no breaking WBL" disclaimer in the spell description. Still, a Colossal Iron Boulder will do the job.

[lord_khaine]

Simple yet shenanigans-y answer: Cast a Gate spell in the center of the town, with the other end of the Gate located at the core of a star in the other plane. Instant thermonuclear bomb.

Alternatively, use True Creation to create 1 cu. foot of Antimatter per caster level.

The first part would only work if you could manage to survive getting the actualy cordinates for a gate in the core of a star, good luck with that.

And True creation doesnt work by the simple reason of it specifying matter, meaning that it cant create antimatter.


Ok, here's a plan that can be used by either an Arcane Caster or a Cleric with Trickery domain.

Gather a handful of pebbles from wherever. Fly over the target city, at a fairly high altitude to ensure terminal velocity. Take one pebble, cast Polymorph Any Object to transform it into a Colossal chunk of Adamantine, which then falls and crushes anything below, causing massive devastation in a huge radius. Repeat as needed.

Edit: nevermind the Adamantine bit, just read the "no breaking WBL" disclaimer in the spell description. Still, a Colossal Iron Boulder will do the job.

And what part of this could not be done 8 levels earlier by a wizard with a wand of fireballs?

[Yahzi]

And I haven't really thought much about the size of the city. I just assumed if I could oblitterate any city, I could oblitterate every city.
It sounds like you're looking for a way for 5th-9th level characters to destroy whole cities.

How many 5th-9th level characters live in those cities? If the answer is more than a dozen, then... how is it there are still cities left to be destroyed?

[Rejusu]

=If possible, I'd like actual, can work rules-as-written, the-only-thing-the-dm-can-do-is-say-"No", ways to blow up a city or larger.

While Yora has already mentioned that torching a city is one way to destroy it, that's way too easy to thwart. On average the city folk will extinguish the fire before it spreads too far. You'll do some significant damage but not enough for total destruction.

Unless of course you set the entire city ablaze in an instant.

I present the level 1 Human Dragonfire Adept. He has 18 CON, and the enlarge breath and clinging breath feats and a cone shaped breath weapon. Everything else is irrelevant. When you apply Enlarge breath to your breath weapon the length of it increases by 50% (and since cones get wider as they get longer this increases the width too) at the cost of having to wait another round to use your breath weapon. Under RAW there's no limitations on how many times you can use the feat. So at the cost of having to wait longer to use your breath weapon you can incinerate a large area.

You'd have to do the maths to work out what you'd need to cover a city but to ignite an Earth sized planet you'd need 48 million stacks, which means a 5 year cooldown on your breath weapon. So to ignite a city I think it'd only incur a cooldown of a few minutes. Also it does 1d6 +1d3 damage so it'll completely wipe out the commoner population.

At later levels you can apply more metabreath tomfoolery to it so it leaves a firestorm behind for years afterward.

All credit to the world destruction handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227513). Surprised no one had linked it yet.

[Urpriest]

The first part would only work if you could manage to survive getting the actualy cordinates for a gate in the core of a star, good luck with that.

And True creation doesnt work by the simple reason of it specifying matter, meaning that it cant create antimatter.


Antimatter is a type of matter.

The star solutions don't work though, only creatures can cross the Gate. Note that Gate works as plane shift. It isn't a door, it's just a ring that plane shifts any valid target that passes through to the other side. This is backed up by more detailed discussion in the Manual of the Planes.

Edit: Oh, and for the OP: Clerics can cast a lot of the relevant spells with the right domain. Off the top of my head, Cold and Winter have most of what you need.

[The Bandicoot]

I love the 'Zombie Apocalypse: RAW Version' but I'm really wondering if I should be worried Ino. Please tell me you're not going to try this in my game. If you are I guess it would be pretty funny.

[Darth Stabber]

I present the level 1 Human Dragonfire Adept. He has 18 CON, and the enlarge breath and clinging breath feats and a cone shaped breath weapon. Everything else is irrelevant. When you apply Enlarge breath to your breath weapon the length of it increases by 50% (and since cones get wider as they get longer this increases the width too) at the cost of having to wait another round to use your breath weapon. Under RAW there's no limitations on how many times you can use the feat. So at the cost of having to wait longer to use your breath weapon you can incinerate a large area.

You'd have to do the maths to work out what you'd need to cover a city but to ignite an Earth sized planet you'd need 48 million stacks, which means a 5 year cooldown on your breath weapon. So to ignite a city I think it'd only incur a cooldown of a few minutes. Also it does 1d6 +1d3 damage so it'll completely wipe out the commoner population.

DFA doesn't qualify for metabreath feats, and if it snags them from a breathweapon from a differnt source, it still only applies to that breath weapon. Dragon shaman could do it and it gets a feat at 6. So 6th level it's doable.

[Brock Samson]

I'm thoroughly disappointed no one has mentioned the humble Decanter of Endless Water. I'm not sure how long it would take, but even just one will eventually flood the city - or at least make the floor level very craptastical. The more Decanters you have the better!

[Darth Stabber]

For the fire method, lock the city gates shut with immovable rods.

[Agent 451]

Any chance you know what book this might be?

The book is called When the Sky Falls.

[Arcane_Secrets]

For the purposes of answering this, how large are you defining the city to be in terms of square miles?

Is epic magic allowed or not?

[Arcane_Secrets]

I'm thoroughly disappointed no one has mentioned the humble Decanter of Endless Water. I'm not sure how long it would take, but even just one will eventually flood the city - or at least make the floor level very craptastical. The more Decanters you have the better!

Wouldn't that only work if the city was below sea level/in a valley or was entirely flat so the water doesn't just run off, though?

Additionally, if people in the city saw something like this being tried, wouildn't they just dig emergency canals if the city wasn't flat to try and drain the water off?

[Rejusu]

DFA doesn't qualify for metabreath feats, and if it snags them from a breathweapon from a differnt source, it still only applies to that breath weapon. Dragon shaman could do it and it gets a feat at 6. So 6th level it's doable.

Took me a while to see it but you're right. The DFA has a breath weapon but the time between breaths isn't expressed in rounds. But yeah Dragon Shaman could do it. Alternatively you could play a race which got an appropriate breath weapon, but I'm not sure if you could do it below ECL6 that way. Still ECL6 isn't bad for being able to cause a fiery apocalypse.


I'm thoroughly disappointed no one has mentioned the humble Decanter of Endless Water. I'm not sure how long it would take, but even just one will eventually flood the city - or at least make the floor level very craptastical. The more Decanters you have the better!

As already stated you'd need the city to be in a basin for this to even have a chance of working. Even then you'd need a lot of decanters to do within a reasonable time frame. In the world destruction handbook it calculates that you'd need 300 MILLION decanters to be able to flood the entire world and even then it'd take 10,000 years. And this assumes that no one finds them and shuts them off.

It's quite possibly the worst way of trying to do things, there's a reason it hasn't been mentioned.

[Cuaqchi]

Get a 15+ Level Bard onto Valhalla or the equivilant and incite the hordes of CG warriors and angels to enter a 'crusade' against the chosen seat of the evil empire... Worked in one of the games I was in...

[nedz]

Earth Elementals to take out the foundations of all the buildings.

Many Cities are on Rivers - so Dam the river with a suitable Wall spell.

Fire Elementals can set things alight, as can itemised bonfires scattered around. Time these attacks for the middle of the night for maximum effect. If the weather conditions are right you can get a firestorm started.

Air Elementals to form whirlwinds. Less powerful option here.

Open a portal to some unhealthy plane. This is quite hard to pull off, but can have a variety of effects.

Arrange for the city to annoy the nearest tribe of monsters etc.

Summon some wights in a tavern.

[Necroticplague]

Just to point out, taking the Power Surge feat can make a DFA's breath qualify for metabreath feats (gives one round cooldown to a supernatural ability in exchange for some minor benefit from a list [+1 point damage per die, +50% duration increase, +1DC]).


Also, Flashflood can level a city pretty well, another druid spell.

[NichG]

There's a spell in Serpent Kingdoms that creates a volcano on the spot, I believe. Something like a mile in radius. It's not low-level though.

[Darth Stabber]

Took me a while to see it but you're right. The DFA has a breath weapon but the time between breaths isn't expressed in rounds. But yeah Dragon Shaman could do it. Alternatively you could play a race which got an appropriate breath weapon, but I'm not sure if you could do it below ECL6 that way. Still ECL6 isn't bad for being able to cause a fiery apocalypse.

You could do it earlier with dragonborn, but I doubt bahamut would like it's mortal representatives doing thise, unless he's going all sodom and gammorah on the particular city and is too busy to get a gold dragon to do it. With a flaw you can start first level with enlarge and clinging metabreaths.

[Necroticplague]

Plus, I remember reading a potion somewhere that caused you to instantly regain your breath weapon use, so you can get around that pesky 1-month recharge time after pulling this.

[Randomguy]

Pull offable by level 13:

1. Cast energy immunity (fire).
2. Cast hoard gullet.
3. Find an active, preferably dragon-free volcano.
4. Use shrink item to fill your hoard gullet with 400 000 cubic feet of lava.
5. Empty your hoard gullet and speak the command word to unshrink over a city. That's about 11 kilometers covered in a meter of lava.

Also works with acid, but it's a bit harder to find a natural source of acid.

It's times like this I wish more countries used metric... Stupid conversion.

[JadePhoenix]

The more recent one was in the Song of Fire and Ice setting. Our 5th level druid was convinced to use Stone to Earth on the area of the Twins supporting one of the major towers. A few minutes of natural water erosion later, the rock-turned-mud couldn't support a castle, and there is no longer much of a bridge there.
(emphasis mine)
:smallconfused:
What is this I don't even

[Averis Vol]

Depends if you consider wargs Druids instead of just skinchangers.

[Malroth]

Buy a scroll of Illusionary script. Use the scroll to Write "stab the guy to your left" on a big sign and put in the center of the marketplace.

[demigodus]

Pull offable by level 13:

1. Cast energy immunity (fire).
2. Cast hoard gullet.
3. Find an active, preferably dragon-free volcano.
4. Use shrink item to fill your hoard gullet with 400 000 cubic feet of lava.
5. Empty your hoard gullet and speak the command word to unshrink over a city. That's about 11 kilometers covered in a meter of lava.

Also works with acid, but it's a bit harder to find a natural source of acid.

It's times like this I wish more countries used metric... Stupid conversion.

An 11km long, 1 meter high, 1 meter wide band of lava isn't all that dangerous. Alternatively you could spread it as a 106m x 106m x 1m square of lava, but that still would be a bit small. Maybe take out a small park with that?

Of course, if you instead cast fly and carpet bomb the city with that much lava...

[Rubik]

Grab the PHB MM II. Look up both warbeast and the titanic template. Add both to a fleshraker dinosaur and give it the Improved Trample feat. Buy it for almost nothing (see the warbeast template for pricing) and have it trample the city in a few rounds.

[The Random NPC]

The Planar Handbook has the spells Precipitate Breach and Precipitate Complete Breach, you'd have to cast the first twice to do much damage, but it allows you to leak a trait from a random plane to yours. The best traits to destroy the city seems to be Fire, Water, Positive, or Negative. The best trait to Rip Van Winkle someone would be the Slow Time trait, 1 round inside being 1 year outside. Both are sorcerer/wizard spells and are 5th and 9th level, respectively.

[Thrawn183]

Pull offable by level 13:

1. Cast energy immunity (fire).
2. Cast hoard gullet.
3. Find an active, preferably dragon-free volcano.
4. Use shrink item to fill your hoard gullet with 400 000 cubic feet of lava.
5. Empty your hoard gullet and speak the command word to unshrink over a city. That's about 11 kilometers covered in a meter of lava.

Also works with acid, but it's a bit harder to find a natural source of acid.

It's times like this I wish more countries used metric... Stupid conversion.

Any resistance to fire provides complete immunity to lava.

Another way might be to find a were-battletitan dinosaur and have it go nuts in the city. Oh wait... I confused "destroy a city" with "use a city to destroy the world."

[INoKnowNames]

Hm.... Godzilla might be fun to spawn in the middle of a city... I'll respond to the rest when I can...

Also, I actually did find a Cleric Spell that I somewhat liked for this purpose. Tell me what you guys think of this? (http://dndtools.eu/spells/serpent-kingdoms--24/erupt--3253/) Maybe Widened or such...

I wish I'd be able to access such a spell earlier, but it's still cool... it specifically burns structures, too.

On a random note, I found something that looks like it beats the heck out of a Fireball. (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/channeled-pyroburst--2967/)

I'm honestly not all that certain why I'm suddenly obsessed with figuring out ways to commit crimes against existance. It just sounds like fun, and I wanna be able to try it... I really don't have any specific limits other than it not be cheesy/insane enough to get a loaf of french bread broken over my head, and to be efficient enough to work in game. I just want to be able to kill people. Is that so bad?

Decanters of Endless Water... cute, but that seems like a waste of time... I want them all to die, not get a free bath.

The Dragon Breath thing.... really, what sane Dm is going to rule that you have the ability to make the entire planet burn in 1 shot with no delay to your attack? Even if the cool down means you'd die of old age before you'd do it again, how the hell could you even remotely produce such a flame on your own without any preparation before hand? How would you live from the force of pushing out such a flame? Birth sounds like it would come easier than that!

On the other hand.... I can't say that doesn't remind me of something I've always wished I could do since I was a kid... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp37K5fuKDY&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s)

[Elfinor]

This thread is awesome:smallbiggrin:

How big would a D&D Metropolis be? The best measurement I could find (without bothering to do population density calculations) was <1 sq. mile.

Other (probably only partial metropolis destruction) ideas:

Tsunami (Druid 9, Spell Compendium) which has a 20ft./level Width and can move at 60 ft/round/caster level.
Control Wind and Sandstorm both have a 40 ft./level radius.

Both of the above (and Blizzard) work best with caster level shenanigans.

Tidal Wave (Sor/Wiz 9, Shining South) which has a 500 ft. width and can push up to 1000 ft. inland (only 1d10 damage past 400 ft. though)
One particularly noteable conjuration is Greater Spirit Binding (Wu Jen 8, Complete Arcane), which allows you to bind a Spirit of the Land (MMII) - Earthquake at will. You might even net a bonus on the opposed Charisma check if the Spirit doesn't like the city.

[Wings of Peace]

True Creation: Box of electrons. Expect additional collateral damage to the universe.

[Rejusu]

The Dragon Breath thing.... really, what sane Dm is going to rule that you have the ability to make the entire planet burn in 1 shot with no delay to your attack? Even if the cool down means you'd die of old age before you'd do it again, how the hell could you even remotely produce such a flame on your own without any preparation before hand? How would you live from the force of pushing out such a flame? Birth sounds like it would come easier than that!

Hey now, I was following YOUR brief:


If possible, I'd like actual, can work rules-as-written, the-only-thing-the-dm-can-do-is-say-"No", ways to blow up a city or larger.

It's perfectly legal under RAW, the only thing a DM can do is prevent it via fiat. And to be honest it doesn't matter what method you try and use to destroy a city a DM will prevent it through fiat if they don't want you to. And hey this certainly fits the "or larger" part.

Also while no sane DM is going to let you incinerate the planet they might actually let you get away with cooking a city. Also there isn't "no delay", burning the planet puts a 5 year cooldown on your breath. I'm not sure that potion NecroticPlague mentioned actually exists.

But yeah the cooldown wouldn't mean you'd die of old age. It's only 5-10 years for destroying the earth. The average human could nuke the world a few times before they even turn 30.

[Elfinor]

-snip-The star solutions don't work though, only creatures can cross the Gate. Note that Gate works as plane shift. It isn't a door, it's just a ring that plane shifts any valid target that passes through to the other side. This is backed up by more detailed discussion in the Manual of the Planes. -snip- You can have the same effect by crafting a one-way (FRCS) nonliving-only (Underdark) portal. The minimum cost for such a portal (10 ft. radius) is 200,000GP, 16,000XP and 200 (400?) days. It is possible to make the portal larger for a greater price (based directly on area, rather than radius). You'll need a fly speed to craft the terminus in the air over the city, since the destination has to be able to safely hold you. There's also the issue of having to work in whatever inhospitable liquid you're planning on dumping on the city for that long.

It's expensive and time-consuming, but you can potentially end up with an awesome looking permanent testament to your power:smalltongue:

[Douglas]

It's perfectly legal under RAW, the only thing a DM can do is prevent it via fiat.
On the contrary, there's a pretty solid argument that RAW doesn't actually allow the metabreath feat in question to stack with itself.

As per page 66 of the Draconomicon:
If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description.

Enlarge Breath has no such section, so it does not stack with itself. The only text to the contrary is an example, and examples do not have the power to override the actual rules text.

[Roguenewb]

Planar Binding. You can probably do it slowly with lesser, and quickly with greater, but normal planar binding will get there.

[Rejusu]

On the contrary, there's a pretty solid argument that RAW doesn't actually allow the metabreath feat in question to stack with itself.

As per page 66 of the Draconomicon:

If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description.

Enlarge Breath has no such section, so it does not stack with itself. The only text to the contrary is an example, and examples do not have the power to override the actual rules text.

That only refers to stacking the feats effects with itself. For example clinging breath states:

Your breath weapon has its normal effect, but also clings to anything caught in its area. A clinging breath weapon lasts for 1 round.

Which means if you were to apply it again then it would still only last for one round, because that's how it's worded. However it has a "Special" section that states:


You can apply this feat more than once to the same breath weapon. Each time you do, the clinging breath weapon lasts an additional round.

Now let's look at the wording of enlarge breath:


The length of your breath weapon increases by 50% (round down to the nearest multiple of 5).

Now since it states "the length of your breath weapon" that implies it's base length. Because it increases by 50% of the base length each time that means that as per the example given in the book if you apply it twice to a breath with a base length of 40ft it only becomes 80ft. Now if the feat had a special section, and therefore stacked with its own effects, it would actually be 90ft as the second time it'd be applied would be on a weapon with a 60ft length (and so a 30ft increase).

In any case it's a little moot since the following rules taken from the same section contradicts your interpretation as does the example:


A creature can use the same metabreath feats multiple times on the same breath. In some cases, this has no additional effects. In other cases, the feat’s effects are stackable. Apply the feat’s effect on the base values for the breath weapon once for each time the feat is applied and add up the extra time the creature must wait before breathing again.

So no, not a solid argument sorry.

[Douglas]

By your interpretation of what "stacks with itself" means, 10 rings of protection +1 would combine to give +10 deflection because the rule prohibiting stacking them is addressing the size of each bonus rather than whether they add together. "Stacking with itself" does not in any case ever used anywhere in the entirety of 3.5 D&D refer to basing a second application's effect on the post-first application value. Without exception it always refers to whether two modifiers can both apply at the same time.

As for your quote, it establishes two cases:
1) second application has no additional effect
2) multiple applications stack

This does not in any way contradict my quote which states that the distinguishing feature between the two cases is the presence of a Special section declaring use of the second case. Enlarge Breath does not have that section, therefore it uses the first case.

[Particle_Man]

I like the summon wights idea, and it can also apply to other spawning monsters, like shadows, chaos beasts, green slime elementals, etc. Wights are probably fastest though. :)

[Dumorimasoddaa]

I like the summon wights idea, and it can also apply to other spawning monsters, like shadows, chaos beasts, green slime elementals, etc. Wights are probably fastest though. :)

Wights is fastest if only as one can get fell drain a very low level and start mass wight infestations with say magic missile. Though you'd need some "cheese" to do this really early though lowering the metamagic level by 2 can be done I'm sure. Or versatile spell-caster could let you burn for it worst case.

In fact this leads me to thing killing things via undead that raise their victims 24 hours later or via negative levels leads to a nasty and effective siege tactic of killing prisoners of war, slaves, your own lvl 1 warriors (what ever) this way then flinging their corpses in to said fortification so the next day a self perpetuating army of undead springs up inside wreaking havoc.

[absolmorph]

Really? Why would you let a non-epic PC or NPC destroy life in a city-sized area?




1. Delay Spell (metamagic feat)
2. Yes, if you have spell slots above 9th level, or if the level adjustment is 0.

But in general, I'd say blowing up cities should be the province of epic spells.
Because it amuses me, and provides an opportunity for someone else to shake up the workings of the world.

[Kazyan]

Though you'd need some "cheese" to do this really early though lowering the metamagic level by 2 can be done I'm sure. Or versatile spell-caster could let you burn for it worst case.

Or just apply Fell Drain to a cantrip. Sonic Snap is the standard for this, but the core damage cantrips are acceptable. Fell Drain Ray of Frost + Versatile Spellcaster + sunset = commoner!wight; now get out of there.

[Rejusu]

By your interpretation of what "stacks with itself" means, 10 rings of protection +1 would combine to give +10 deflection because the rule prohibiting stacking them is addressing the size of each bonus rather than whether they add together.

No, because that's +1. In the example I was using Clinging breath has a FIXED duration of 1 round, not +1 rounds. Meaning that without it's special stacking rules it would only ever have a duration of 1 round. Because "+1" is an increase rather than a set amount, yes if you could wear 10 rings and deflection bonuses stacked (neither of which are true) they would give you a +10 bonus in total.

Secondly you're comparing a FIXED increase to a VARIABLE one. +1 is always going to be +1, where as +50% is going to be dependent on the value of what it's being applied to.


"Stacking with itself" does not in any case ever used anywhere in the entirety of 3.5 D&D refer to basing a second application's effect on the post-first application value. Without exception it always refers to whether two modifiers can both apply at the same time.


You know, except in this section in the Draconomicon. However no where in the entirety of 3.5 D&D has rules for "Stacking", it has rules for "Stacking for modifiers or roll checks". But there's no specific ruling for "stacking". Any rules on defining how specific things stack are always explicitly stated.


As for your quote, it establishes two cases:
1) second application has no additional effect
2) multiple applications stack

This does not in any way contradict my quote which states that the distinguishing feature between the two cases is the presence of a Special section declaring use of the second case. Enlarge Breath does not have that section, therefore it uses the first case.

Yes it does. Let's look VERY carefully at the wording here. The first statement is this:
"In some cases, this has no additional effects. In other cases, the feat’s effects are stackable."
And the second statement is this:
"If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description."

Note how the former refers to the EFFECTS of the feat, and the latter applies to stacking the feat itself. It may seem minor, but it's an important distinction.

You're right in that it establishes two cases, however you're wrong in assuming that the latter statement forms a restriction for falling into the second case. The description of metabreath clearly states you can use the same feat on the same breath weapon and explicitly defines how to apply it's effects. At this point in the ruling it makes no restrictions on the stacking of metabreath feats. The final line only serves to point out exceptions to this.

This is kind of moot anyway because your interpretation would contradict the previous rules as well as the example.

[Caedes]

1) be a druid.
2)take leadership to get a druid companion.
3) fly high above the city in some kind of bird form (extra points if you can bring your companions too)
4) wildshape into a dire whale (might be a pathfinder creature actually) or the biggest animal you can find.
5) fall on city, crushing the inhabitants and sending shockwaves from the impact rippling throughout the city :smallbiggrin:

on a serious not why not just rain widened fireballs down upon the city? it will annihilate any commoner even on a min roll and can kill most moderate level npc's.

The Whale: Ahhh! Woooh! What's happening? Who am I? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? What do I mean by who am I? Okay okay, calm down calm down get a grip now. Ooh, this is an interesting sensation. What is it? Its a sort of tingling in my... well I suppose I better start finding names for things. Lets call it a... tail! Yeah! Tail! And hey, what's this roaring sound, whooshing past what I'm suddenly gonna call my head? Wind! Is that a good name? It'll do. Yeah, this is really exciting. I'm dizzy with anticipation! Or is it the wind? There's an awful lot of that now isn't it? And what's this thing coming toward me very fast? So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like 'Ow', 'Ownge', 'Round', 'Ground'! That's it! Ground! Ha! I wonder if it'll be friends with me? Hello Ground!
[dies]

[Douglas]

You know, except in this section in the Draconomicon. However no where in the entirety of 3.5 D&D has rules for "Stacking", it has rules for "Stacking for modifiers or roll checks". But there's no specific ruling for "stacking". Any rules on defining how specific things stack are always explicitly stated.
Could you kindly point me to the basis for your interpretation that "stacking" in this context means something other than what it does for the rings of protection? I have read that entire section and found precisely nothing to indicate this.


Yes it does. Let's look VERY carefully at the wording here. The first statement is this:
"In some cases, this has no additional effects. In other cases, the feat’s effects are stackable."
And the second statement is this:
"If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description."

Note how the former refers to the EFFECTS of the feat, and the latter applies to stacking the feat itself. It may seem minor, but it's an important distinction.
With regard to determining what a feat does, there is no difference whatsoever between a feat and its effect. In any context where distinguishing between the two makes sense, the question of whether the feat - as distinguished from its effect - stacks with itself makes about as much sense as the question of whether black tastes sour. If you're not talking about the effect, then the concept of stacking has nothing it can even in principle apply to. You're splitting a hair that doesn't even exist.


You're right in that it establishes two cases, however you're wrong in assuming that the latter statement forms a restriction for falling into the second case. The description of metabreath clearly states you can use the same feat on the same breath weapon and explicitly defines how to apply it's effects. At this point in the ruling it makes no restrictions on the stacking of metabreath feats. The final line only serves to point out exceptions to this.
The section you quoted states that some feats stack and some don't. It says nothing whatsoever about which feats fall in which category. Thus, that distinction is determined exclusively by the sentence I quoted.


This is kind of moot anyway because your interpretation would contradict the previous rules as well as the example.
It contradicts the example, yes, but no other rule on the subject even exists for it to have any possibility of conflicting with.

[Rejusu]

It contradicts the example, yes, but no other rule on the subject even exists for it to have any possibility of conflicting with.

It contradicts the rules on applying the metabreath feats:

Apply the feat’s effect to the base values for the breath weapon once for each time the feat is applied and add up the extra time the dragon must wait before breathing again.

As well as the rule's on being able to apply the same feat multiple times:

A dragon can use the same metabreath feat multiple times on the same breath.

Quite simply:
This puts NO restrictions on being able to apply the same feat multiple times. This means that I could apply Enlarge breath multiple times to my breath attack. Each time I apply the feat I apply it's effects to the base value for the breath weapon. In this case I apply an additional 50% of the base range to the attack.

The example is of these rules in action and your interpretation contradicts both that and these rules.

[Douglas]

In the context of the whole paragraph, the sentence about applying the effect and recharge time multiple times is specifically for the case of feats that do stack, not for all metabreath feats. A rule about what to do when a feat stacks does not conflict with any rule about whether stacking can occur.

Yes, you can apply any metabreath feat multiple times without restriction. The very next sentence states that doing so doesn't always actually do anything.

[Rejusu]

Look, considering the example uses enlarge breath and applies this in this manner we can argue all we like about it being RAW but the example means it's clearly RAI. And I still contest that there's no solid argument against it being RAW.

[Douglas]

RAI, maybe. I can easily imagine the writer of the example being a different person from the writer of the actual Enlarge Breath feat and misinterpreting or misremembering (and not bothering to check) a detail, or it being changed late in the editing process with no one noticing it needed to be updated in two places, or any number of other explanations other than deliberate intent. I'm pretty confident that applying it umpteen thousand times rather than two or three is nowhere near RAI, though. In any case, RAI is an extremely subjective topic that's not likely to ever get any resolution unless the book's writer(s) show up here in person to state their intent. We'd never get anywhere, so I see no point arguing about RAI here.

Regarding RAW, if you whited out the whole example and gave the book-sans-example to a large number of impartial judges who have never heard the issue before, I am almost certain that an overwhelming majority of them would read it as Enlarge Breath not stacking. The only reason this issue is even in question is the example, and in my view that means there is a substantial case for RAW going against it.

[Monarch Dodora]

1) Open a Gate to the lowest level of the Nine Hells.

2) Walk away.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ice Assassin a Living Wail of the Banshee. Those can wipe a city (or battlefield) clean of life incredibly rapidly.

[INoKnowNames]

Ice Assassin a Living Wail of the Banshee. Those can wipe a city (or battlefield) clean of life incredibly rapidly.

.... How exactly does this work? I have no idea what an Ice Assassin is, and though I've heard of Wail of the Banshee, I don't know what a Living Spell is. I only assume that's a Living Spell because Wail of the Banshee is a spell, and Living Spell seems like something you'd apply to a spell.

I ask about this specifically because I remember someone talking about killing a God with it...

Also, where exactly is the source for the Dragon Breath stuff? My normal website doesn't want to be nice to me recently. Personally, just from what it sounds like, this seems like something I -DESPERATELY- want to do, almost to the point of changing the title from destroy to Blow Up, but there seems to be some issue here involving RAI, and that's actually the main thing I want to ensure to get around when I say the only thing the Dm should be able to say is "No.". His only reason should be "Because I said so." or "It breaks the game.".

[eggs]

Planar Binding. You can probably do it slowly with lesser, and quickly with greater, but normal planar binding will get there.
This.

It may just be me, but when I think "dozens of Formian Taskmasters at ECL 9," all sorts of doors just kind of open.

[Emperor Tippy]

.... How exactly does this work? I have no idea what an Ice Assassin is, and though I've heard of Wail of the Banshee, I don't know what a Living Spell is. I only assume that's a Living Spell because Wail of the Banshee is a spell, and Living Spell seems like something you'd apply to a spell.

I ask about this specifically because I remember someone talking about killing a God with it...
Ice Assassin is a 9th level spell from Frostburn (page 92). It's basically like Similcarum except it costs more, has no HD limit, and a few other differences. It requires, as a material component, a biological sample of what you want to make a copy of. Using Eschew Materials or a scroll of Ice Assassin of Living Wail of the Banshee (use something with a Wish SLA to produce it for you) you don't need to provide the material component. This means that you can pick any creature that could theoretically exist in the game and make a copy of it that is under your absolute control. In this case a Living Spell (MM3) Wail of the Banshee.

As for using Ice Assassin to kill deities, you can technically use it to make perfect duplicates of the deity in question (or of one more powerful than your target). Make a few dozen and send them off to kill the real deity.

[Ryulin18]

Throw a few platinum bars into a crowd, cast something to make them all very hostile and watch the havoc.

[killem2]

Throw a few platinum bars into a crowd, cast something to make them all very hostile and watch the havoc.

In addition, you could attach a fake map to it, and then release a few thousand more all with explosive runes cast on it, surround the city with a prismatic wall, and summon some very hungry wearwolves to much it all down.

[INoKnowNames]

Ice Assassin is a 9th level spell from Frostburn (page 92). It's basically like Similcarum except it costs more, has no HD limit, and a few other differences. It requires, as a material component, a biological sample of what you want to make a copy of. Using Eschew Materials or a scroll of Ice Assassin of Living Wail of the Banshee (use something with a Wish SLA to produce it for you) you don't need to provide the material component. This means that you can pick any creature that could theoretically exist in the game and make a copy of it that is under your absolute control. In this case a Living Spell (MM3) Wail of the Banshee.

As for using Ice Assassin to kill deities, you can technically use it to make perfect duplicates of the deity in question (or of one more powerful than your target). Make a few dozen and send them off to kill the real deity.

.... How do spells like this get thought up!?! How do people create things like this!?!

All the mundane things that can be used, and it seems the more out you go, you just find more game breakers....

There's a way to create living spells and gods and such, and ways around the components for the process, yet there still seems to be no legitimate way to outright -blow up- a city.

Granted, I'm enjoying all of these suggestions so far. There's just something in me that yurns for a big explosion. Maybe I should consider changing the thread title if I really want that, though. I wish the Locate City Bomb wasn't so glitchy...

Edit: Actually looking at the descriptions, wouldn't an Ice Assassin of a Living Wail of the Banshee only want to kill the Living Wail of the Banshee it was designed from? Ice Assassin of a Living Spell of a Wail of the Banshee; there seems like there's too much that can go wrong with that, now that I think about it. I'll think more on it later, though, since I gotta go to work...

[Golden Ladybug]

The thing with Ice Assassins is that they have to obey you. So if you tell it to go kill that city, it will. It'll want to go and kill the Living Spell Wail of the Banshee it is based off of, but you've told it to do something else.

Also, here is another (sadly non-explosion based, but still lots of fire) way of wiping out a city.


Buy a bunch of Feather Tokens (Tree)
Get a Permanencied Wall of Fire, attach it to an object that can be moved
Use Fly/Overland Flight/Item that grants flight, and go 200ft above the City
Cast Telekinesis, carry moveable Wall of Fire up with you
Activate Tree Token, drop through the Wall of Fire
Laugh Maniacally as the city is crushed by falling great oaks that are also on fire
Eat popcorn as city burns


20d6+(weight of Great Oak/200)d6 damage from dropping the tree on things, plus the fact that its on fire and all, means that everyone is panicking, trees are falling all over the place, and the fire is spreading. What fun!

[Chronos]

Honestly, is there anything from Frostburn that isn't horribly broken? I mean, that's twice in one thread that broken things from it have been brought up (Ice Assassin and Snowcasting), and it's also the book with Shivering Touch and druids turning into cryohydras.

[tyckspoon]

Honestly, is there anything from Frostburn that isn't horribly broken? I mean, that's twice in one thread that broken things from it have been brought up (Ice Assassin and Snowcasting), and it's also the book with Shivering Touch and druids turning into cryohydras.

Sure. There's the suuglin, a weapon that is mostly notable for the fact that *nobody in their right minds* would ever invest the resources needed to actually use it. There's the Uldra race, which would make really nifty Clerics (Small, + Con/Wis) and have a couple of modest-but-nice cold-related benefits. Only they're LA +1, and so they go in the junk heap. There's Neanderthals, which are a fair alternative to Orcs for an Uncivilized Thog Smash race. The prestige classes are in the usual "sucky to alright" band. Like most of the D&D books, the majority of its material is in the range of "it's ok if you really want to focus your character on this" (Frostburn's focus being cold-climate and ice-based characters), with a couple of practical optimization staples and a few outliers; some stuff that actively makes your character worse [sinking feats into the suuglin] and some that should probably be banned or fixed for being too far over the curve.

[Madara]

A Dread Necromancer with a huge HD cap (241HD at level 11)
He has Destructive Retribution as a feat.
you could make 564 skeleton rats. They do a minimum of 1d6 damage to the 5ft. around them. Just spread them throughout the city, and when people start destroying them, the commoners die. :smallamused:

Seriously though, having that many skeleton rats is just plain fun. Otherwise Wrightpocolypse is the best way to go. Master of Shrouds early entry is your best bet with that.

[Chronos]

Sure. There's the suuglin, a weapon that is mostly notable for the fact that *nobody in their right minds* would ever invest the resources needed to actually use it.Actually, the suuglin is great for a character who gets racial weapon familiarity with it (which IIRC Neanderthals do) and whose BAB is too low to make multiple attacks. Though you're right that it's not broken.

Still, though, it seems like most of the things from Frostburn that actually get mentioned are the really broken things, of which there are a fair bit more than in most rulebooks.

[Necroticplague]

A lot of Frostburn appears to be broken because we only talk about the broken stuff. Sure there's a bunch of other stuff, but most of it is pretty "meh" (though I personally like primevals), so you dont hear about, just like why shadowcasting doesn't get talked about to often (binding is awesome, truenaming completely sucks, shadowing casting is weak but middle of the road, so you don't hear much about it)

[Elfinor]

-snip- Also, where exactly is the source for the Dragon Breath stuff? My normal website doesn't want to be nice to me recently. Personally, just from what it sounds like, this seems like something I -DESPERATELY- want to do, almost to the point of changing the title from destroy to Blow Up, but there seems to be some issue here involving RAI, and that's actually the main thing I want to ensure to get around when I say the only thing the Dm should be able to say is "No.". His only reason should be "Because I said so." or "It breaks the game.". Metabreath feats are in the Draconomicon. They can be applied to a Breath weapon with a timer expressed in rounds, for a PC that would usually be a Dragon Shaman or Dragonborn. Dragonfire Adepts might be able to use them, but that's a whole other can of worms. Using Enlarge Breath stacking is a contentious issue.

The argument for the use of Enlarge Breath stacking is that the rules for metabreath feats (p. 66) state that Metabreath feats can be used multiple times on the same breath. Sometimes the effects stack and sometimes they don't. The example given clearly illustrates that Enlarge Breath's effect stacks with itself.

The argument against is that those same rules for metabreath feats (p. 66) state that if a metabreath feat stacks with itself, it will be 'noted in the special section of the feat description.' It is not mentioned anywhere in Enlarge Breath's feat description; it has been included in others, notably Lingering Breath.

EDIT: Does anyone have any figures for the size of an 'average D&D metropolis'?

[Pennance]

Wasn't this about destroying cities at some point? Why are there so many pages about the locate city bomb and it's ins and outs? You have stepped into a totally different conversation by this point, and one which I would expect has been covered already. In several places, actually, as you can see if you put [site:giantitp.com locate city bomb gitp] into a search engine without brackets.

I was looking forward for mass destruction, and the thread's title made me think there would be real strategies. Like using Mass Suggestion and Mass Invisibility to start riots, perhaps? People become pretty daring if they think they won't be caught, and as the real world has shown us, people are very good at devastating their own cities.

For someone inclined to more actual devastation, tacking any of the spells mentioned in the first post (Earthquake is an easy one) to an Contingency for a certain phase of the moon would let you have your city-leveling at distance. The fact that Control Winds could cause such devastation is interesting, but what if you used it to funnel people into magical traps along the Symbol lines?

If you aren't looking for instant property damage so much as sudden acquisition of city to be then destroyed at leisure, there's a similar ploy which may or may not have been in OoTS itself involving Symbol of Insanity and rubber spheres?

If you're dedicated some Sculpt Earth/Stone whatever the spell is actually called (I'm not a druid person) would let you hollow out underground tracks of land, which you could then remove the supports for, and thus just collapse the city into a pit?

[Emperor Tippy]

One trick is to take a bunch of small objects that can fly (say statues of birds) and hit them with permanent Animate Objects spells. After that give each Animated Object a Craft Contingent Widened Maximized Meteor Swarm. Possibly hit each one with a permanent telepathic bond so that you can control them with your mind.

Each one can cover 4, 80 foot radius spreads in 36 damage. Send a few thousand of them to fly into a city and detonate all at once.

They also, incidentally, make excellent guided missiles (it's what I use them for, although I animate permanently invisible objects made out of riverine and use craft contingent maw of chaos spells).

[Chronos]

For someone inclined to more actual devastation, tacking any of the spells mentioned in the first post (Earthquake is an easy one) to an Contingency for a certain phase of the moon would let you have your city-leveling at distance.Contingency can only be used for personal spells. I think there's a Delay Spell metamagic feat somewhere that would give you a few rounds, enough to teleport out. Or you could just be flying when you cast the Earthquake.

[Rejusu]

Metabreath feats are in the Draconomicon. They can be applied to a Breath weapon with a timer expressed in rounds, for a PC that would usually be a Dragon Shaman or Dragonborn. Dragonfire Adepts might be able to use them, but that's a whole other can of worms. Using Enlarge Breath stacking is a contentious issue.

Under RAW Dragonfire Adepts can't use them because their breath weapon doesn't have a time between uses expressed in rounds. It's an at-will breath. However I believe some method was mentioned that changes it into one that fits the requirement, but otherwise it doesn't work. Dragon Shaman or anything with a compatible breath weapon can do it.


The argument for the use of Enlarge Breath stacking is that the rules for metabreath feats (p. 66) state that Metabreath feats can be used multiple times on the same breath. Sometimes the effects stack and sometimes they don't. The example given clearly illustrates that Enlarge Breath's effect stacks with itself.

The argument against is that those same rules for metabreath feats (p. 66) state that if a metabreath feat stacks with itself, it will be 'noted in the special section of the feat description.' It is not mentioned anywhere in Enlarge Breath's feat description; it has been included in others, notably Lingering Breath.

EDIT: Does anyone have any figures for the size of an 'average D&D metropolis'?

My point of contention with that (as I've already noted earlier in the thread) is that last part specifically refers to the feat stacking with it's own effects. This is supported by the example and the descriptions of lingering and clinging breath. The rules though are quite clear on how to apply a metabreath feat multiple times, and states that you can apply a metabreath feat multiple times WITHOUT restriction.

This is the important part, there is absolutely no written restriction on you applying the same metabreath feat to your breath weapon multiple times. It simply states that you can. And each time you do you use the rules for applying a metabreath feat multiple times:


A creature can use the same metabreath feats multiple times on the same breath. In some cases, this has no additional effects. In other cases, the feat’s effects are stackable. Apply the feat’s effect on the base values for the breath weapon once for each time the feat is applied and add up the extra time the creature must wait before breathing again.

Quite simply there is no way (under RAW) you can follow these rules and not end up with a significantly larger breath after a few stacks of Enlarge breath. There is no restriction on being able to apply enlarge breath more than once and following the rules for applying it more than once results in a bigger breath.

The sticky points are with regards to this line:
"In some cases, this has no additional effects. In other cases, the feat’s effects are stackable."
And this one:
"If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description."

The former statement however makes no distinction about which feats have no additional effects and which don't. It merely states that there are feats which will have no additional effects when used multiple times. Now it's clear from reading them which feats don't have any additional effects and which do. Maximize breath for example will never have any additional effects after the first application because you can't maximise maximum damage.

Also worth noting is that it's worded "additional effects" rather than "no effect".

Now the second statement is the real pain as it can be argued that because feats like Enlarge breath are missing this section they don't stack with themselves. However as I've already noted:
1) It can also be referring to metabreath feats stacking with their own effects. The wording on clinging breath and the special section for that support this interpretation. Following the normal rules for applying metabreath feats multiple times would result in a stacked clinging breath doing all it's damage on the first round.

2) This statement places no restriction on applying the same metabreath feat multiple times to a breath weapon and the omission of a special section (only the presence of one) does not alter the rules for doing so.

Quite simply I can put enlarge breath on my 50ft weapon five times. The rules don't restrict me from doing so. Each time I do so the rules state to "apply the feat’s effect on the base values for the breath weapon once for each time the feat is applied and add up the extra time the creature must wait before breathing again".

So each time I take 50% of the base length and increase the length of it by that amount and add +1 round of cooldown for each time I do so. Each time I apply it my weapon gets a 25ft increase and I have to wait one more round before using it. Doing so five times means five more rounds of cooldown and +125ft of length.

That statement wouldn't alter that unless it was worded specifically as a restriction on the multiple application of metabreath feats.

[Kansaschaser]

Class Needed
Dragonfire Adept 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Geomancer 10 (All spellcasting levels added to Wizard.)

Feats Needed
Extend Spell
Persist Spell
Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell

How To
1. Cast Animate Breath (Spell Compendium, pg. 11) as a Persistent Spell.
2. Spend the next 10 hours using your breath weapon.
3. You now have 6,000 Huge Fire Elementals that will last for the next 14 hours.
4. Order your army of 6,000 Huge Fire Elementals to destroy the town.
5. Go rest safely somewhere far away while your elementals wreak havoc.
6. When you wake up the next day, repeat the process.

Even a huge metropolis wouldn’t last long against 6,000 Huge Fire Elementals. There are probably easier ways to destroy a City at lower levels, but this is one of the most fun.

[moritheil]

My main point is, that RAW is useless. In an open ended game with infinite posibilities, making assumptions about what the creator intended is indispensible. RAW can't be argued with, while RAI is speculation, but that's the only reason RAW is paid any attention at all. It's a good way to figure out what the creator wanted something to do, but it's not the final word.

You seem to be arguing that because there was one bad editing job that resulted in ambiguity (one of many, I admit) and the wording cannot be trusted there, we can never trust the wording in anything, ever. I think most people are with you as far as the first part: there have indeed been some atrocious editing jobs. I don't think that very many people will follow you as far as the extrapolation to infinity you seem to have done, that all discusssion of RAW is therefore worthless. If all printed rules are worthless, what point is there to buying any books?

(For that matter, that is why real life contracts generally spell out the clause, "anything that invalidates one section of this doesn't invalidate the whole contract.")

Consider the following, as a parallel exercise in thought: is a book what it says, or is it what the author says it is? Literary theory has arrived at the "author is dead" conclusion for a number of reasons, among them the added burden of having to second-guess what is printed in front of you, and also because authors sometimes change their minds about it. This last reason is particularly relevant: there are recorded instances of authors waffling about how their rules should be interpreted!

So, RAW is imperfect. But so is RAI. Rejecting anything that isn't perfectly clear and perfectly stated all the time leaves us with no way to play the game.

[Necroticplague]

Under RAW Dragonfire Adepts can't use them because their breath weapon doesn't have a time between uses expressed in rounds. It's an at-will breath. However I believe some method was mentioned that changes it into one that fits the requirement, but otherwise it doesn't work. Dragon Shaman or anything with a compatible breath weapon can do it.

I believe I mentioned it before, using the Power Surge feat from Dragon 313, can apply to any supernatural ability, causes it to have a 1 round cooldown. Since a DFA's breath is SU, apply it and use it, you now have a breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds, and metabreath feats can now be applied.

[Elfinor]

-snip- I was trying to paraphrase :smalltongue:

I was pointing out that it is is contentious, and either option requires a degree of interpretation - particularly over the "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description." line. IKnowNoNames wanted something that could only be argued against with 'No'/'It breaks the game', Enlarge Breath is not that something.

[Agent 451]

There's just something in me that yurns for a big explosion.

Squads of hundreds of Bozak draconians under Mass Invisibility spells spontaneously committing suicide?

[moritheil]

With regard to determining what a feat does, there is no difference whatsoever between a feat and its effect. In any context where distinguishing between the two makes sense, the question of whether the feat - as distinguished from its effect - stacks with itself makes about as much sense as the question of whether black tastes sour. If you're not talking about the effect, then the concept of stacking has nothing it can even in principle apply to. You're splitting a hair that doesn't even exist.

Do you really mean that first sentence the way you worded it?

Let us suppose I take a feat that acts as a prerequisite for other feats - say, Dodge. The effect of Dodge is that I get to declare someone I am dodging and apply a dodge bonus of +1 to armor class against their attacks.

Is the fact that I can now take Mobility and Spring Attack also an effect of Dodge? If I am denied the benefit of my Dodge feat, does that somehow invalidate my Mobility and Spring Attack?

Or are the feat and the effect of the feat separate after all?

[moritheil]

...and it's also the book with Shivering Touch and druids turning into cryohydras.

Well, why should Slime Wave and Metamorphosis have all the fun? :smallwink:

[Douglas]

Do you really mean that first sentence the way you worded it?

Let us suppose I take a feat that acts as a prerequisite for other feats - say, Dodge. The effect of Dodge is that I get to declare someone I am dodging and apply a dodge bonus of +1 to armor class against their attacks.

Is the fact that I can now take Mobility and Spring Attack also an effect of Dodge? If I am denied the benefit of my Dodge feat, does that somehow invalidate my Mobility and Spring Attack?

Or are the feat and the effect of the feat separate after all?
You are interpreting "with regard to determining what a feat does" rather more broadly than I meant. Things mentioned entirely in other feats' descriptions are generally not included.

[tyckspoon]

Oh..remembered another one of the usual tricks (unfortunately still not a 'boom', because there's not a lot in D&D that operates on that scale, but..):

Get some Brown Mold. Set it down next to a continuous flame, such as a Permanent Wall of Fire. Brown Mold 'instantly doubles in size' when put next to fire. By inference of fluff, it should drain and extinguish that fire.. but it can't destroy a Wall of Fire (Brown Mold deals up to 3d6 cold damage. A Wall of Fire requires 20 points to extinguish a section.) So you wind up with an exponentially-growing mass of cold-radiating mold driven by a permanent engine at its core. This will render a city unlivable quite quickly.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well pathfinder has my favourite spell:

Create Tsunami that whilst not doing much damage to a single target is very wide and about 3 castings could very likely completely obliterate a city.

[killem2]

Ok, I think I found another way. It isn't exactly destroying a city, it is more, emptying the city of ways to stop YOU from finishing it off. Generally speaking, most commoners in D&D settings and players for that matter, are religious or believe in the concept of religion or a higher power.

This method will take cunning, high charisma, and some extremely good diplomacy skills.

What you do is, plan a festival for the city, large scale, religious based, with a closing act where the entire city or at least as many as you can gather, sing in unison a beautiful ballad. At the last line of the last verse you cast an Empowered, Maximized Explosive Runes on each sheet of music.

So you deal 54 damage to everyone who reads the last line, you also cause all people with in 15 feet of each explosion take a reflex save or take at least 27 damage.

Just to give you an idea here:

http://zeynepselcukva312.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/2356.jpg

People get closely packed at festivals due to the nature of the event.

It's something that would be quite deadly, that only gets worst with bigger cities. Even if it doesn't take out everyone, it would certainly cause enough panic to where you could then start in with some of the more barbaric methods, of fire, brimstone, zombies, whatever.

So to recap:


Roll a Charismatic Sorcerer
Get very high ranks in Diplomacy
Gather Trust in said City
Organize a religous festival
Practice with the Choir
Create sheet music with Maximized, Empowered Explosive Runes on it
Set it to the last line of the song.


Then you could set delayed fireballs in all areas during the event at critical junctions.

This SHOULD leave you free to do what you need to, to the rest of the city.

:smallamused:

[Togo]

Honestly, is there anything from Frostburn that isn't horribly broken? I mean, that's twice in one thread that broken things from it have been brought up (Ice Assassin and Snowcasting), and it's also the book with Shivering Touch and druids turning into cryohydras.

Ice assassin isn't that bad, it just gets quoted a lot by people who don't look at the details. Casting it to duplicate a deity sounds great until you realise that.

-Most deities will see this coming several weeks in advance, and stomp you.
-You need a biological sample. Eschew materials doesn't work, because a body part of a deity is easily worth more than gold peice.
-Gods aren't, in most campaign settings, physical entities, so you can't have a peice of one. You can have a peice of the god's avatar, a physical manifestation of one, but they're disappointingly weak.

Similarly, no matter how funny gating in multiple 40 HD red dragons sounds, it's incredibly bad for your long term health.

Druids turning into cryohydras I'll grant you, but then hydras in general are a problem for wildshape, polymorph, and similar. Absent that particular example, and... ok, it's still too powerful, but not nearly so bad.

---------------------

My favourite method for destroying towns is by troll telegraph. Get a large number of trolls, and tie them up. Chop off the left toe of each troll, and hide the toes around the city. Wait for a suitably peaceful night, and then burn your trolls. The largest peice regenerates, which is now the troll toes...

Similar methods can be used for intercontinetal message system. Want a non-magical signal that can't be blocked and has unlimited range? Troll toe to the rescue?

Or you could turn into a burrowing creature, like an umber hulk or delver, and sever all the foundations of the city just below ground level. Then use flashflood, or just wait for the next heavy rain.

[killem2]

My favourite method for destroying towns is by troll telegraph. Get a large number of trolls, and tie them up. Chop off the left toe of each troll, and hide the toes around the city. Wait for a suitably peaceful night, and then burn your trolls. The largest peice regenerates, which is now the troll toes...


I am not the most versed in troll biology, but don't they regen faster than that?

[Necroticplague]

I am not the most versed in troll biology, but don't they regen faster than that?

The part of them that's detatched doesn't regen at all until it becomes the biggest part of the troll, it will rot as normal. The troll itself can't regen from damage, because you set it on fire, which shuts down its regeneration for a round (or simply bypasses its regeneration, one of the two,still works either way).As long as you make sure to do it fast enough that the toe doesn't rot to the point of uselessness, it should work. I've actually used captives trolls as limited-use telegrams in this manner in an evil campaign (though admitingly, I had a magic item that ensured it didn't rot).