[PF] Paladin or Sohei Monk?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As I stated in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239218), I'm interested in making a tiefling follower of Irori who seeks to transcend the taint in his blood. And I can't decide whether to make this character a paladin of Irori or use the Sohei archetype for the monk. What's the best way to build either of them? Skills, feats, etc? Should I multiclass and take both like that character in Jade Regent's Tide of Honor module?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! :smallsmile:

[Bhaakon]

There's supposedly a Monk/Paladin hybrid PRC name Paladin of Iori coming out in the Paths Of Prestige (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8rce/discuss?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Paths-of-Prestige) book (one of the devs mentions it in the comments), if you're willing to wait until August.

If you're going to looking for fluff, then sohei is probably closer to the mark, but there are some broken/unclear things about that archetype (it can wear armor, but loses its AC bonus; it's designed for mounted combat, but can't flurry with a lance, etc.)

I'd also point out that monk is MAD enough without throwing Cha into the mix with levels in paladin, so pass on multi-classing in that way. What I might suggest is mixing monk with levels in cleric or inquisitor and just fluffing it as paladin.

[deuxhero]

Zen Archer Monk is odd for a Monk in that it is actually good.

One multiclass option to pair it with is to pair it with one or two levels of Empyreal Sorcerer (add Seeker if you want to Skill monkey) and go into Arcane Archer.

[Cieyrin]

Zen Archer Monk is odd for a Monk in that it is actually good.

I hope you don't mean the Flurry, since it currently doesn't work as written, due to Flurry == TWF, which requires two weapons. A bow takes up both hands, so you don't have a second bow to get your extra attacks with. The bonus feats are nice, though, since you get more than you normally get as a Monk.

[deuxhero]

The Flurry retcon isn't "as written", it's as decided LONG after the fact by someone with no clue what they hell they were doing. It breaks every example, Sajan and the text itself.

[Person_Man]

From a purely crunch perspective, Paladin is superior to the Monk in a wide variety of ways.

Whatever you choose to do, I would not suggest multi-classing. The mounts of both classes have abilities which are dependent on your Paladin or Monk class level, with no synergy feat currently available. Pick one or the other.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, so I'll pick paladin. What's the best setup for a tiefling paladin then? I already know that it's kinda sucky since I take a CHA penalty (and if you do suggest taking an alternate one, that's not likely, as the one that best fits what I'm building this for is Devil-Blooded, which takes a CHA penalty as well).

What kind of combat setup? Sword-and-shield? Greatsword? I'd prefer to keep it simple. Reading the guides seems to indicate all the BEST builds utilize odd things like the falcata and whatnot.

[deuxhero]

Greatsword+power attack

While nerfed in PF so you can't rocket tag with it, it's still the best damage output and a single feat.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What's the ideal stat spread for that kind of paladin, then?

[Bhaakon]

What is your point buy?


Also, while greatsword + power attack is certainly the go-to, I'd argue that TWF is at least viable with paladins, because their smite gives them a substantial source of bonus damage. A lot of that viability is going to depend on the campaign, though, since you'll need to face mostly evil opponents and have ample opportunity to rest and refresh your smites/day (I'm not sure about council of thieves). You might want to consider it, since tieflings get a bonus to Dex instead of Str. If you do go that route, you'll proably want to take the Oath of Vengeance archetype to get extra smites.

Also, since you're getting a +2 Int anyway, try to get 13 Int to qualify for the unsanctioned knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/unsanctioned-knowledge) feat. Off-list spells are nice.

[Cieyrin]

The Flurry retcon isn't "as written", it's as decided LONG after the fact by someone with no clue what they hell they were doing. It breaks every example, Sajan and the text itself.

How's it a retcon? It's said 'as TWFing' since day 1, it's just that people (developers and players alike) finally realized what that meant, that it required two weapons to flurry. The recent kerfluffle does nicely indicate that there's two unarmed strikes per person, though, so that still works out fine.


What's the ideal stat spread for that kind of paladin, then?

Focus on Str and Cha, with secondary to Con and Dex (Ride is dex-based, after all) and whatever left to Int and Wis.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What is your point buy?
I don't have one. I'm gathering info in preparation for the possibility I may find a Council of Thieves game to join. I like to plan my characters out in advance so I don't end up making bad decisions building the character that result in it sucking in the endgame. :smallredface:

[Larkas]

I hope you don't mean the Flurry, since it currently doesn't work as written, due to Flurry == TWF, which requires two weapons. A bow takes up both hands, so you don't have a second bow to get your extra attacks with. The bonus feats are nice, though, since you get more than you normally get as a Monk.

Wouldn't that be reflected in the official SRD? http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/monk.html#zen-archer


Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.

Anyways, I would go with Paladin myself, as it has a marginally greater versatility.

[Bhaakon]

Well, assuming that you go Greatsword/powerattack, then probably something like:

20 point buy:
Str: 16 (+10)
Dex: 10 (-2)
Con: 14 (+5)
Int: 14 (+1)
Wis: 8 (-2)
Cha: 13 (+7)

25 point buy
Str: 17 (+13)
Dex: 10 (-2)
Con: 14 (+5)
Int: 13 (+1)
Wis: 8 (-2)
Cha: 14 (+10)

Unfortunately, a tiefling's ability bonuses synergize poorly with that particular build, but not to the point of unplayability.

[Cieyrin]

Wouldn't that be reflected in the official SRD? http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/monk.html#zen-archer

Let me emphasize this sentence:

A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

Which means referring back to normal Monk's flurry of blows:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Zen Archer modifies the normal flurry but doesn't change the ability away from using Two-Weapon Fighting, which requires two weapons, for which using one bow doesn't fulfill. You could make it work if you had 4 arms (Syntesist/Alchemist) and 2 bows, for which it would work as written but it doesn't for us two armed people.

I should also note the PRD only changes when errata gets released, which only happens when Paizo makes a new printing of a book, which isn't exactly a frequent occurrence. So, till the APG gets a 3rd printing with new 'fixes,' Zen Archer doesn't work correctly by RAW. You can handwave it, which I assume most people with Zen Archers are currently doing, it's just that the developer who wrote Zen Archer missed the memo on how Flurry actually works.

[Larkas]

Oh, got it. Basically, the guy should have rewritten the ability to make it work with two-handed bows (i.e.: bows in general), not reference an incompatible ability.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

On a not so completely unrelated note, I'm still trying to figure out what this guy's code might be. I wrote another thread for this (link in the OP) and if I could get some help with that I'd be very much obliged. :smallsmile: