How powerful is a Fighter / Nymph

[Talakeal]

What tier would you say a gestalt between a basic fighter and the nymph monster class ( http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6934.0 ) is?

Would such a character be overpowered in a standard game of D&D? Would you allow it in your game?

How about if I didn't make use of the Nymph's spell casting, or took only healbot spells?

For me it would allow me to play a fighter, but overcome their biggest down sides (bad skills, bad saves, no use for charisma, no access to immortality), so I am looking for a way to play it.

[gooddragon1]

Not much more than the druid casting really...

For immortality in the fey line go with killoren race (a use for charisma in that it gets smite from it). No level adjustment required.

[Mad Wizard]

You're asking how powerful the gestalt would be compared to non-gestalt characters, yes?

[Talakeal]

Yes, I am.

[Pilo]

If there is a wizard/anything or a druid/anything, it will not break the game.

You will even be weaker than some regular gestalt (like Wizard/Beguiler or cleric/druid).

[Talakeal]

I guess I wasn't clear on my initial question.

I was asking

A: What tier is the nymph racial class?
B: How much does the addition of a gestalt T5 class like fighter modify this compared to a non gestalt character.

[gorfnab]

I guess I wasn't clear on my initial question.

I was asking

A: What tier is the nymph racial class?
B: How much does the addition of a gestalt T5 class like fighter modify this compared to a non gestalt character.
A: Monstrous/ Savage Species like classes are kinda hard to figure out for Tiers. Lets see a Nymph has 6hd and LA +7. This makes it a 13th level character with 7th level druid casting, low hp, and some minor SoS/SoD abilities. I would rate this possibly a tier 3. A regular 13th level Druid is way more versatile and powerful than a nymph.

B: Well, you're adding full BAB, d10 HD, and some bonus feats. Meh. It's an improvement I guess but you could do better. Classes like Crusader, Marshal, Paladin of Freedom, Warlock, Hexblade, Dragon Shaman, and Bard could benefit quite nicely from the Nymph's high Cha. Crusader would be a much better option than fighter if you want combat abilities.

[Namfuak]

It doesn't have an LA listed on that page, but just eyeballing it it looks like it would be +4/+5? Since the table only goes up to HD 13, then maybe the creator intended for it to be +7.

Let's assume it would be +5, so the first level of Nymph/Fighter HD will put you at LA +5/HD 1//LA +5/Fighter 1 at the start. The extra skill points would be cool if you had any skills (of which none are listed for the HD, so you just have the handful that fighters get), so you can't be part skill-monkey. The spellcasting will definitely complement your fighter abilities, but you will start at 2 spell levels behind a straight druid and by level ten will be 4 levels behind, so at best you will be using it as a sort of divine gish with your fighter levels, with a couple neat racial abilities and low level druid spells in your spare slots.

I'd say that this is a tier 3 build, if you are comparing it to non-gestalt characters. In a campaign of non-gestalt characters, I'd probably not let you do this only out of fairness to other players (unless they didn't care, I guess), but reducing the LA over time if you dropped the HD and went fighter or some other martial tier > 2 wouldn't be out of the question.

[Talakeal]

It doesn't have an LA listed on that page, but just eyeballing it looks like it would be +4/+5? Since the table only goes up to HD 13, then maybe the creator intended for it to be +7.

Let's assume it would be +5, so the first level of Nymph/Fighter HD will put you at LA +5/HD 1//LA +5/Fighter 1 at the start. The extra skill points would be cool if you had any skills (of which none are listed for the HD, so you just have the handful that fighters get), so you can't be part skill-monkey. The spell casting will definitely complement your fighter abilities, but you will start at 2 spell levels behind a straight druid and by level ten will be 4 levels behind, so at best you will be using it as a sort of divine gish with your fighter levels, with a couple neat racial abilities and low level druid spells in your spare slots.

I'd say that this is a tier 3 build, if you are comparing it to non-gestalt characters. In a campaign of non-gestalt characters, I'd probably not let you do this only out of fairness to other players (unless they didn't care, I guess), but reducing the LA over time if you dropped the HD and went fighter or some other martial tier > 2 wouldn't be out of the question.

I assumed that since the nymph has fey hit dice they would get the fey skill list from the MM to choose from, is that incorrect?

So you really think it would be unfair to the other players? I was thinking it would basically come out to a low tier 3, like a bard with better combat abilities but much worse casting and no music or lore, and that I would still be weak compared to full casters and ToB characters. In addition I would be ~2 levels behind the rest of the party at all times. I have seen several people on this board post house rules letting people gestalt freely with T5 classes, I didn't think it was unreasonable.

But honestly I misread how monster classes worked. I thought it was actually creating classes using the monster HD for skills / saved / attack bonus / HP and the monster's racial traits and ability modifiers for class abilities. Now I see it is just the (terribly under powered and implemented) LA rules from the DMG split out over time. So screw that idea, I wonder why D&D even bothered publishing savage species...

Anyone got a better idea how I can have a class that plays like a fighter, has a use for CHA, gets decent skills and saves, and some access to immortality?

Hmm, Fighter 15 / Holy Liberator 5 gestalted with Bard 10 / Heart warden 10 would probably get the same overall result, but that really would be OP with the full spell casting and bardic music.

[Urpriest]

There's no such thing as "Fey skills", they vary based on the creature. The monster class you quoted also looks like a Savage Species style monster class, so it's exactly the same as just doing this with a regular Nymph, it just allows you to start at lower level.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a class that plays like a Fighter because Fighters don't have an associated playstyle since they don't have any class features, so I don't know what you're asking for there. In terms of playing a Nymph in a balanced and non LA-gimped way, why not check out some of the homebrew Monster Classes. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)'s the old thread for them, there are a variety of new ones scattered through the homebrew forum here and to some extent on brilliantgameologists.

[Talakeal]

Hmm, you appear to be correct, I can't find the list of skills by hit dice. I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. How DO you figure out what skills you can pick from if you are playing a creature with only HD and no class levels? Clearly you have some class skills, the sample monsters in the Monster Manual certainly have full class ranks in some skills.

As for plays like a fighter, I meant doesn't have spells or powers, but still has a variety of techniques it can employ.

I guess just playing a fighter / monk is probably my best bet, as monks have a decent number of skills and good saves.

[Urpriest]

Hmm, you appear to be correct, I can't find the list of skills by hit dice. I could have sworn I saw that somewhere. How DO you figure out what skills you can pick from if you are playing a creature with only HD and no class levels? Clearly you have some class skills, the sample monsters in the Monster Manual certainly have full class ranks in some skills.

As for plays like a fighter, I meant doesn't have spells or powers, but still has a variety of techniques it can employ.

I guess just playing a fighter / monk is probably my best bet, as monks have a decent number of skills and good saves.

Well if you want Cha, good saves, and a variety of techniques, a Crusader is a good bet.

In terms of skills for Monster HD, there is a formula. Basically, you just look at what skills the monster has in its statblock. Read my monster guide (link in sig) for a more detailed explanation.

[Talakeal]

I think the monster article you linked is where I initially got the skill list for the nymph, as it matches up with what I remembered, and the rules seem to match my expectations a bit better.

As for the crusader, that is just about my least favorite class in the history of D&D. It has a smaller skill list than core melee, no better saves, and a power system that makes my head hurt just thinking about it.