For me, Bard is the most fun to optimize (also a question)

[danzibr]

Of the people I play D&D with, I am the only optimizer. As such, playing an optimized caster or Warblade or something just didn't sit right. I either outperform everyone or hold back.

But wait! If I optimize a buffer (so I'm talking about a buffing Bard), then I can make my character really good at what he does, not hold back and help everyone have a good time.

As for my question, suppose level 6 rolls around. At this point my Bard has Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspirational Boost, a Badge of Valor, a masterwork mandolin, Song of the Heart (via trading Suggestion) and Words of Creation.

So I cast Inspiration and *then* start playing on my mandolin with Words of Creation (converting attack bonus to d6's fire damage) and *then* use my badge. I know you apply your bonuses in the best order for you, but since I do the above three events in the aforementioned order, will it be:

a) (+1 Inspiration +1 base +1 mandolin +1 Song of the Heart)*2 Words of Creation +1 badge = 7

-or-

b) (+1 Inspiration +1 base +1 mandolin +1 Song of the Heart +1 badge)*2 Words of Creation = 8?

Basically, I wonder if I can double the bonus from the badge as well.

[Snowbluff]

IIRC Word of Creation doubles everything.

Anyway, I hate optimizing bard. Bardic Music/DFI can be easily replace by anyone with a lute, a couple of ranks in Perform, and a Bardic PrC. Personally, I'd rather go with a Bardsader/WarBard so I could drop some sweet White Raven buffs in as well, for extra bausness.

[danzibr]

IIRC Word of Creation doubles everything.

Anyway, I hate optimizing bard. Bardic Music/DFI can be easily replace by anyone with a lute, a couple of ranks in Perform, and a Bardic PrC. Personally, I'd rather go with a Bardsader/WarBard so I could drop some sweet White Raven buffs in as well, for extra bausness.
I haven't messed around with it yet, but a Bardadin or, as you said, Bardsader would be interesting to play.

There's just something appealing to me about playing the role of the buffer. Take some levels in Bard, some levels in War Chanter, throw out mad buffs.

[gartius]

if you intending to be a frontline fighter look no further than the bardbarian-bonus points if you pick up swiftblade prestige class as well

[gartius]

if you intending to be a frontline fighter look no further than the bardbarian-bonus points if you pick up swiftblade prestige class as well

[Talya]

Of the people I play D&D with, I am the only optimizer. As such, playing an optimized caster or Warblade or something just didn't sit right. I either outperform everyone or hold back.



The optimized bard is a beast that contributes far more than a warblade ever could. However, you're right. The optimized bard doesn't need to hold back, because when they are played well, they boost everyone in their party as well.

As for whether you double the bonus from the badge, that's been argued before. There's no definitive RAW answer. It will ultimately be up to your DM.

[danzibr]

The optimized bard is a beast that contributes far more than a warblade ever could. However, you're right. The optimized bard doesn't need to hold back, because when they are played well, they boost everyone in their party as well.

As for whether you double the bonus from the badge, that's been argued before. There's no definitive RAW answer. It will ultimately be up to your DM.
Eh, just one point difference. Not bad, not bad.

I should maybe have mentioned I intend to *just* buff, so I can be the best buffer around, but rather than piss people off, everyone should love me (I hope). If not I'll Diplomacy them.

Ahh, the life of a Bard.

[danzibr]

if you intending to be a frontline fighter look no further than the bardbarian-bonus points if you pick up swiftblade prestige class as well
What build would you suggest? Not that I'll be doing this in the upcoming campaign. Paladin of Freedom 2/Bard 7/Swiftblade X/???

I know little of optimizing a bard beyond ramping up the Inspire Courage and a few other buff methods.

[Snowbluff]

if you intending to be a frontline fighter look no further than the bardbarian-bonus points if you pick up swiftblade prestige class as well

Yes Bardbarian! You can't have your cake and you can't eat it! FYI, most Bardic Music requires the ability to Concentrate, which you can't do while raging. I'd like to hear more, but 'look no further' implies the lack of an effective alternative.

Looking further than that you get Song of the White Raven WB/Crusader who can BM as a swift and Inspire Courage like a bauss, while being a Tier higher than Barbarian anyway. Take your White Raven Maves to tell everyone what to do, give extra turns, and huge bonuses to thinks like flanking.

Swift Blade is good, entry will be late and you're still wasting time with the fact that you can't cast while raging. :smallfurious:

[Socratov]

well, if you cast inspiration, then activate your badge of valour perform (use a horn, they add 1 more the the attack bonus so more dfi :smallamused: ) then song of the heart, and then words of creation then you should go around to:

{table=head] Effect|Spells|cumulative bonus
inspiration| +1 |1|
badge| +1 |2|
perform(horn) | +2 |4|
song of the heart| +1 |5|
Words of Creation|x2|10|
[/table]

anything after words of creation does not get doubled, anything before does :smallcool:

[danzibr]

well, if you cast inspiration, then activate your badge of valour perform (use a horn, they add 1 more the the attack bonus so more dfi :smallamused: ) then song of the heart, and then words of creation then you should go around to:

{table=head] Effect|Spells|cumulative bonus
inspiration| +1 |1|
badge| +1 |2|
perform(horn) | +2 |4|
song of the heart| +1 |5|
Words of Creation|x2|10|
[/table]

anything after words of creation does not get doubled, anything before does :smallcool:
I'm afb atm. I didn't realize you could do Words of Creation when you wish. I thought it happened when you started the bm. As for the original post... I can't add. I should have had 9 or 10 rather than 7 or 8.

[Ezekiul]

Words of Creation only doubles your base inspire courage amount, not the total. So +2 base at first, +4 base a 8th, etc. I don't believe the badge/spell/masterwork item would double, but song of the heart might. so it would be more like:
+1 inspirational boost
+1 badge
+1 masterkwork item
=3
+1 Base
+1 song of the heart
x2 words of creation
=4

3+4=7

Atleast thats how I ran it through one of my campaigns, and it was scary enough with a shrunken thrower and monk in the party. :smalleek:

[gartius]

You can't have your cake and you can't eat it! FYI, most Bardic Music requires the ability to Concentrate, which you can't do while raging.
true but with harmonising property or with a feat the bardic performance will last for 10 rounds after you stop performing so you should be able to kill everything and anyone before performance runs out. in the same way if you are a frontline fighter you would not be casting spells into combat-not what op asked for true but shows the versitility of bards.

also look no further implied awesomeness, not effectiveness, there probably are a lot more effective builds out there but bardbarian is considered the greatest multiclass in our game soc at uni. we know its not the most effective thing but its the most fun (especially if we try and throw around the bardbearian)

build would be
silverbrow human
1 savage bard dragonfire inspiration, dodge
2 savage bard
3 savage bard -trade inspire competance for song of the heart, snowflake wardance
4 savage bard
5 savage bard
6 savage bard words of creation
7 savage bard
8 savage bard
9 savage bard Mobility
10 lion totem barbarian
11+swiftblade

if you want you can choose to stop taking savage bard at lvl 8 since that gives you an extra inspire courage boost-but i went to lvl 9 for inspire greatness. but for eariler entry to swiftblade drop the last level of bard

[danzibr]

Words of Creation only doubles your base inspire courage amount, not the total. So +2 base at first, +4 base a 8th, etc. I don't believe the badge/spell/masterwork item would double, but song of the heart might. so it would be more like:
+1 inspirational boost
+1 badge
+1 masterkwork item
=3
+1 Base
+1 song of the heart
x2 words of creation
=4

3+4=7

Atleast thats how I ran it through one of my campaigns, and it was scary enough with a shrunken thrower and monk in the party. :smalleek:
I reread the actual wording in BoED and... I'm not sure. It says, "Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level)."

I mean, it seems like if it just doubled the base, it seems with your above calculation you should end up with +6 instead of +7, not doubling the +1 from Song of the Heart.

I think it should be all or nothing. *Only* double the base, or double everything at the time of starting your bardic music. Or... maybe if your bardic music gets buffed after starting, double that too. Really, there are three ways it can go, I guess.

The thing that's throwing me off is the "(+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level)." They're either just giving an example using the base numbers, or they're saying this is exactly the bonuses the inspire courage should be giving.

[Snowbluff]

Examples only exist to confuse you with WotC. It say doubles the bonus, not doubles the base bonus, so then entire thing is doubled.

[Socratov]

Examples only exist to confuse you with WotC. It say doubles the bonus, not doubles the base bonus, so then entire thing is doubled.

indeed, any other ruling is houseruling. It is, I suspect, indeed as intended for only the base bonus, since it totally breaks encounters with powerattackers...

[Akisa]

The optimized bard is a beast that contributes far more than a warblade ever could. However, you're right. The optimized bard doesn't need to hold back, because when they are played well, they boost everyone in their party as well.

As for whether you double the bonus from the badge, that's been argued before. There's no definitive RAW answer. It will ultimately be up to your DM.

I disagree, you still have to hold back depending on how well the DM optimizes opponents. You can frustrate the DM on trying to design opponents for the party to fight that are not cake walk thanks to the Bard buffing the party so well.

[eggs]

The thing that's throwing me off is the "(+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level)." They're either just giving an example using the base numbers, or they're saying this is exactly the bonuses the inspire courage should be giving.
There were no numbers other than the base numbers at the time of BoED's printing.

There would have been no reason for that to be deliberately included as a limiting specification, and there would be a reason for it to be included as a helpful illustration - Inspire Courage had just been updated, and the designers may have wished to make it clear that they intended it to fully double the new and much-improved bonus.

So as the feat says it doubles the bonus, I see no reason from the printed rules that it shouldn't. (Though whether it should work like that is something different.)