Questions about shields

[ILM]

While the books only speak of shield bash used as an off-hand attack, the FAQ (reasonably) clarifies that nothing stops them from being used as primary attacks too. Cool.

Assume a +5 heavy shield. It costs a piddly 25,000 gp and provides a +7 bonus to AC. What happens when you use it to bash faces in? Is it a +5 weapon? If you have Improved Shield Bash, does it become a +5 weapon that also happens to provide a +7 bonus to AC? With the addition of spikes or that slashing thingamajie from wherever, does that not make it the best and cheapest one-handed weapon out there? Can you, by RAW, further enchant a shield with weapon enchantments? Lo! All the questions!

[TheTick]

If I don't get ninja'd, there's a shield handbook around here somewhere that might help you...here, this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630).

[inexorabletruth]

By RAW?

DMG, pg. 217:
"Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see special ability description). You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC. For example, a +1 buckler with +1 shield spikes would cost 3,475 gp (15 gp for the basic buckler, 150 to make it masterwork, 1000 for the +1 bonus to AC, 10 gp for the spikes, 300 to make them masterwork, and 2,000 to make the spikes a +1 weapon)."

Also, no single piece of armor or shield can provide more that a +5 to AC, though that rule is often bent or ignored entirely by many DMs.

[mattie_p]

Assume a +5 heavy shield. It costs a piddly 25,000 gp and provides a +7 bonus to AC. What happens when you use it to bash faces in? Is it a +5 weapon? If you have Improved Shield Bash, does it become a +5 weapon that also happens to provide a +7 bonus to AC? With the addition of spikes or that slashing thingamajie from wherever, does that not make it the best and cheapest one-handed weapon out there? Can you, by RAW, further enchant a shield with weapon enchantments? Lo! All the questions!

A +5 heavy shield does not count as a +5 weapon.


Shield Bash Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldHeavyWoodenorSteel)
You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. ... An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

This requires masterwork costs for the shield as armor, plus masterwork costs of the shield as a weapon, plus enhancement/enchantment costs of the shield as a weapon, plus enhancement/enchantment costs of the shield as armor.

EDIT: swordsaged by forum brokenness. Ah well.

[Rejusu]

Also, no single piece of armor or shield can provide more that a +5 to AC, though that rule is often bent or ignored entirely by many DMs.

Don't you mean it can't provide more than a +5 enhancement bonus (similar to how weapons can't have more than a +5 ench bonus)? Because even non-magic armour can provide more than +5 to AC. I think when he said +7 to AC that 5 of that is enhancement bonus and 2 of it is the heavy shields shield bonus.

[Cieyrin]

This requires masterwork costs for the shield as armor, plus masterwork costs of the shield as a weapon, plus enhancement/enchantment costs of the shield as a weapon, plus enhancement/enchantment costs of the shield as armor.

I don't know why you'd need to masterwork it twice. If you plan to make it a weapon, masterwork it as armor, make it a +1 bashing shield and use the provided +1 to attack and damage from Bashing to springboard into weaponizing it with specials and increased attack bonuses.

[Averis Vol]

i think he meant the spikes have to be enchanted as masterwork too which makes sense, and even if its the shield i think its more so to balance out money expenditure, the person who enchants his shield as a weapon should pay as much as as the rogue who enchants his dagger.

it could also be be an aesthetic thing. a shield made to defend is different then a shield made to defend and attack =/ either way it could be easily house ruled away.

[Cieyrin]

i think he meant the spikes have to be enchanted as masterwork too which makes sense, and even if its the shield i think its more so to balance out money expenditure, the person who enchants his shield as a weapon should pay as much as as the rogue who enchants his dagger.

it could also be be an aesthetic thing. a shield made to defend is different then a shield made to defend and attack =/ either way it could be easily house ruled away.

Shield Spikes aren't a separate weapon from the shield, though. There are spiked shields and non-spiked shields.

[Averis Vol]

Shield Spikes aren't a separate weapon from the shield, though. There are spiked shields and non-spiked shields.

i don't think so, you can put spikes on an unspiked shield, which leads me to believe it is a separate weapon. equally a shield can be made with spikes pre attached to it so i guess it could go either way really. i'm still an advocate of the former though.

[Cieyrin]

i don't think so, you can put spikes on an unspiked shield, which leads me to believe it is a separate weapon. equally a shield can be made with spikes pre attached to it so i guess it could go either way really. i'm still an advocate of the former though.

If the spikes are a separate weapon, why don't they have their own weapon entry? Armor Spikes do, all I can find of shields and spikes are light and heavy shields and spiked versions thereof.

[rollforeigninit]

If the spikes are a separate weapon, why don't they have their own weapon entry? Armor Spikes do, all I can find of shields and spikes are light and heavy shields and spiked versions thereof.

Because the spikes themselves are rolled into the shield stat block. Alone, they are just spikes...............

[ericgrau]

An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
...
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

A masterwork shield does not get a +1 to attack rolls like a masterwork weapon. That makes me think that it is not masterwork in the context of weaponness and that you need to add that cost separately for 300 gp when making the shield (to the entire shield; spikes or no spikes). It also seems to imply that you use the general rules for making a magic weapon when making a shield into a magic weapon, which requires it to be a masterwork weapon. I could be wrong but that's the best answer I can see without getting more information from other rules.

The bashing property does seem like a way around that since it has no masterwork requirement, but it does not provide that requirement for enchanting the shield as a weapon. In fact "The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash" implies that you still need to pay for the real +1 before upgrading to +2 (so making it +2 is 8,000 gp not 8,000 gp - 2,000 gp = 6,000 gp).

[Greenish]

For example, a +1 buckler with +1 shield spikes would cost 3,475 gp (15 gp for the basic buckler, 150 to make it masterwork, 1000 for the +1 bonus to AC, 10 gp for the spikes, 300 to make them masterwork, and 2,000 to make the spikes a +1 weapon)."Of course, they forgot you can't bash someone with a buckler (for some reason). :smallcool: